'Your World' remembers Pat Caddell

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," February 18, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHARLES PAYNE, GUEST HOST: President Trump set to make remarks in Miami this hour on the turmoil in Venezuela and the dangers of socialism.

He's also expected to call on the military in Venezuela to support democracy. When that speech begins, we will take you there live.

We're also live in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, where Democratic presidential contender Kamala Harris is about to hold a town hall. It comes as all the major Democratic candidates are out in force this President's Day.

Welcome, everyone. I'm Charles Payne, in for Neil Cavuto. And this is "Your World."

It's not just Kamala Harris in the news today. Democrat Cory Booker lashing out at opponents of the Green New Deal.

Peter Doocy is in Concord, New Hampshire, with the very latest -- Peter.

PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Charles, Democratic presidential hopefuls are descending on the first-in-the-nation primary state that was easily carried by Bernie Sanders in 2016.

So I asked Senator Harris a few minutes ago if that means that she thinks, to win here, she might have to adopt more of a Democratic socialist platform.


SEN. KAMALA HARRIS, D-CALIF., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The people of New Hampshire will tell me what's required to compete in New Hampshire. But I will tell you, I am not a Democratic socialist.


DOOCY: Senator Cory Booker also crisscrossed the first-in-the-nation primary state this weekend, filling house parties with hundreds of curious locals. And there was a lot of talk about the dangers posed by climate change.

And since Booker is a supporter of the Green New Deal, I asked him how we planned to pay for it because of items popping up like the one in The Wall Street Journal today that just to upgrade light bulbs in some New York City apartments costs almost $2,000 per unit.


SEN. CORY BOOKER, D-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is the lie it's going on right now.

As a guy who is a former mayor that shows you can actually revive your economy and create a bold green future, we environmentally retrofitted our building, saved taxpayers money, created jobs for our community, and lowered our carbon footprint.


DOOCY: And this weekend, Senator Harris also talked about how she would pay for the Green New Deal if she was elected president, telling a group in South Carolina at a town hall in Colombia that she would claw back money from America's wealthiest that they have got in the bank right now because of the Trump tax reform bill -- Charles.

PAYNE: Peter, thank you very much.

So, the question now, Kamala Harris, she's rolled out a pretty good beginning here. Does she have the early momentum?

I want to get the read from Democratic strategist and Fox News contributor Doug Schoen.

Doug, she's got a great social media presence, perhaps the best among the presidential candidates on the Democratic side. And she's rolled out a pretty good campaign so far.


I would say, of the candidates that have launched so far, hers has been most successful. The other thing, Charles, is because of the fact that 2018 was the year of the woman, people of color were empowered on the Democratic side, that gives her a leg up to start.

And the launch, in terms of the turnout in Oakland, the number of followers on social media, and most importantly, amount of money raised from her launch, all give reason to be very optimistic.

PAYNE: Now, of course, there's perhaps two elephants in the room, right?

Joe Biden, who, by all accounts, RealClearPolitics has him with a substantial double-digit lead, and even perhaps Bernie Sanders.

SCHOEN: Right.

PAYNE: I know I was looking at an Emerson poll. Both of them poll ahead of Kamala Harris. So they're lurking out there.

Any -- is it too early to tell what's going to happen?

SCHOEN: Well, it's too early this towel, but we have a history in the Democratic Party of front-runners like Joe Biden, who start high and end up sinking.

It isn't clear to me he has decided where he has a message or he has a theme that is suitable for 2020. And Bernie Sanders did great against Hillary Clinton. We know that. The real question is, will he be the right stuff for 2020?

Both unanswered questions, Charles.

PAYNE: You say Joe Biden, and his theme, perhaps, is this 2020 theme.  He's over in Munich, really dissing the president of the United States in front of European countries, where they're -- they're even -- it's -- I mean, is that the message?

Is that -- to just sort of say, hey, it's all about being anti-Trump, without necessarily presenting an alternative to President Trump and the Republican Party?

SCHOEN: Well, look, Democrats are unalterably anti-Trump, as are Europeans.

I was in Munich myself, and I got the reaction. But I think the second part of your question is...

PAYNE: Well, yes, but I have just got to -- you are talking about the same Europe that has Brexit, the same Europe that just elected anti -- Europe's got skeptics in Italy.

SCHOEN: Right.

PAYNE: The same year but that wants Catalonian independence in Spain.

By the way, and Bavaria -- Munich is the capital of Bavaria.

SCHOEN: Right.

PAYNE: But Bavaria wants to be separated from the west of Germany because the rest of the Germany they don't think is pulling their weight.


PAYNE: I don't know that all of Europe is against President Trump.

SCHOEN: Well, European elites.


PAYNE: The elites are. The elites in that room maybe.

SCHOEN: That's what I was talking about.

PAYNE: Angela Merkel in Germany is out, because you know what? The people are pushing back against those elites.

SCHOEN: Well, look, they certainly have problems.

And I don't disagree with anything you're saying. But in that room, among elites in Europe, Mike Pence did not get much of a response. But I would say, to finish answering your question, Biden does need a program going forward that is more than just warmed-over politics from the past.

I think he will embrace immigration. I think he will embrace climate change. But whether he is seen as an activist, an agent of change for the Democrats, remains an...


PAYNE: That remains to be seen, right?

SCHOEN: Remains to be seen.


SCHOEN: Very much so, Charles, yes.

PAYNE: And it's also -- you got to admit the sort of the feelings that the Democrats must have a person of color or a woman somewhere on that ticket, like, in other words, if it's not at the top of the ticket, it's got to be the V.P. candidate.

SCHOEN: Yes, I would tend to agree that there's got to be a woman and ideally a person of color on the ticket.

Two white males isn't going to work this year.

PAYNE: Especially Biden, and over 70, 80 years old.

SCHOEN: Yes, I think that's a problem.


PAYNE: Pat Caddell, he passed away.

SCHOEN: He did.

PAYNE: And just a remarkable person. He left a major impression on everyone who came across him.

And you knew him better than most.

SCHOEN: Well, this was a guy, Charles, who literally invented political polling and consulting as we know it.

He was largely responsible for Jimmy Carter's election, for the creation of our industry. And a little known fact is that Pat was an early advocate of Donald Trump. He saw that this was, in his words, a pre-revolutionary moment before the election.

And on this network, he did predict Trump's election. So he's as responsible as anyone for electing two presidents in his lifetime and career. And in my way of thinking, that's an extraordinary accomplishment.

PAYNE: You know what I thought was also extraordinary? His -- he didn't have a political bias that he wore on the sleeve.

There were times you could have a conversation with Pat and wouldn't know if he was a Republican or a Democrat, almost -- just to be quite frank with you, I mean, we have honest conversations...

SCHOEN: We do.

PAYNE: ... where you don't bring Democratic talking points to the table.  And that was so refreshing.

SCHOEN: Well, you're nice to say that, but I would call Pat, who was just a little older than I am, I would call him a mentor, because he saw things without fear or favor.

You're right. He wasn't ideological, but he was a visionary. He saw the mood that elected Trump. He saw the mood that elected Jimmy Carter. And I don't know anyone who's had a greater influence on my work, my thinking, and my approach to politics than Pat Caddell.

PAYNE: Well, Doug, thank you very much.

SCHOEN: Charles, thank you. A very sad moment.

PAYNE: Yes, sir, certainly.

And, of course, Pat Caddell was a great friend to this show throughout the years, offering political insight and expertise and lots of laughs, many and his own expense.

And Neil Cavuto and Pat often closed out those epic FBN election specials well past midnight, the last men standing, when everybody else had packed it in. It was always Pat always there, ready for whatever Neil threw at him, always ready for the long haul.

Let's take a fond look back at -- what better place to start, of course, Iowa, where Pat Caddell got it all started for Jimmy Carter, on his way to the White House and on his way to making history.


NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: We're here, including through a snowstorm.


CAVUTO: Pajama party.

CADDELL: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You getting home on Tuesday, not happening.

CAVUTO: Not happening. So I'm going to have to do Jell-O shots and a pajama party with Pat Caddell. That's what you're telling me.

CADDELL: I'm having fun already.

CAVUTO: This is the most excited I have seen you.

CADDELL: I'm just it's -- first the birth of the real...


CAVUTO: I cannot see this enough, that picture. It's sort of like an early Beatles shot. Very handsome young man.


CAVUTO: I have got another campaign to run.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Iowa caucuses are good for business.

CAVUTO: All right, now, what is the most popular item? Pat right now is on the ribs.

I'm glad we don't have a mic on Pat right now. Caddell, stop.

Pat and I have already promised the Jell-O shots later on. If you stick around, it's going to get kind of ugly.


I even got texts and e-mails from people. It's amazing. All wanting to know about our shots.

CAVUTO: Really?

Whatever happens in Des Moines should stay in Des Moines. Right?

CADDELL: Absolutely. That's what I said. That was my view.

And being able to laugh at yourself, nothing better in politics. People and politicians take themselves too seriously. I don't know where they get that idea. But the fact is, is that that moment...


CAVUTO: Did you ever get Carter to lighten up?


CAVUTO: You did?

CADDELL: I will try to remember when.


CAVUTO: Do we have that photo of -- no.

CADDELL: I have to make a confession, because in this hothouse environment we have of this national hysteria, I have to confess I bought my 11-year- old granddaughter a new show dog.

She's 11. The dog is from Russia. And it was not inexpensive. And I had to collaborate with the Russians to get it.


CADDELL: And it won its first junior contest with Olivia. But, fortunately, in the dog world, they have not yet summoned her to be subpoenaed.

CAVUTO: The dean of all things politically historic, the historic, I'm ignoring President Carter shaking my hand, Pat Caddell.

Patrick, good to have you.

CADDELL: Yes. That's me, ignoring.

CAVUTO: All right, the man who made that Jimmy Carter history.

CADDELL: Oh, my God, not again.

CAVUTO: And there he is ignoring Jimmy Carter shaking his hand. No, no, I just think it's so rude.

CADDELL: Maybe it's just the moment they hit the snap, the shutter. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe I just had looked. Maybe I just looked. Maybe they were after me.


CAVUTO: You made history. You elected a guy who had no chance in heck to become president of the United States.

CADDELL: None at all.

CAVUTO: You put him in the Oval Office. He shakes. He's looking around.  My gosh, I'm in the Oval Office. And he wants to thank you, the guy who made it all possible, and you can't -- look at that.

Hi. Thanks, Pat. Thanks.


CADDELL: Got better things to do today.

CAVUTO: It's like, where are you going? Where are you going to go?

CADDELL: I probably had a date.

CAVUTO: Really? Oh, you little rascal. What are you doing back there?

CADDELL: I was pretty wild in my 20s.

CAVUTO: Were you really?

He's in the Oval Office, you got him elected, and you can't even look at him when he's shaking your hand to thank you. Why?

CADDELL: Obviously, that's the arrogance of youth. Today, I would be humbled.

I wish I had looked the president is in the eyes, so I would have been spared this humiliation.


CADDELL: You promised to give me -- and, as an Italian, you have proved you keep your word not to be messed with.

CAVUTO: Shake hands. No.


CAVUTO: See what I mean?

People within the media, if you want to understand their bias, they are operating. They're operatives in this. And their operation is in defense of a political class and a big government that they like and support.

And their attitude is, these are all yahoos. Anybody who wants to cut budgets or cut money, they're just yahoos. And you know what? The country really disliked them intensely.

You finally lived up to the quality and kindness of your staff. You finally did them good.

CAVUTO: Do not encourage them.


CADDELL: I know, but it's true.

CAVUTO: You're the man. You know that.


CAVUTO: Coo coo ca choo.

CADDELL: You are the man.

CAVUTO: You, you are the man.




PAYNE: New reaction today from President Trump to that "60 Minutes" interview with fired FBI deputy Director Andrew McCabe.

John Roberts is at the White House with more -- John.


Some pretty stark reaction from the White House today to what Andrew McCabe was saying on "60 Minutes" last night specifically involving a couple of things, this idea that they might want to take out the president, that the FBI and the DOJ, using the 25th Amendment, and then whether or not Rod Rosenstein was serious about wearing a wire.

To the first point there on the 25th Amendment, Andrew McCabe insisted he wasn't involved in any extended conversations regarding a 25th Amendment removal of the president, but he does say that Rod Rosenstein talked to him about it and that Rosenstein appeared to him to be serious about it.  Listen to what McCabe said on "60 Minutes."


ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER ACTING FBI DIRECTOR: Discussion of the 25th Amendment was simply Rod raised the issue and discussed it with me in the context of thinking about how many other Cabinet officials might support such an effort.


ROBERTS: Now to the other issue. McCabe also insists that Rosenstein was serious when he talked about wearing a wire into his White House meetings with President Trump.

Rosenstein has insisted that he was only joking about it, only saying it sarcastically, but President Trump today going off on both McCabe and Rosenstein, in a tweet this morning saying -- quote -- "Wow, so many lies by now disgraced acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe. He was fired for lying, and now his story gets even more deranged. He and Rod Rosenstein, who was hired by Jeff Sessions, another beauty, looked like they were planning a very illegal act and got caught."

He goes on to say: "This was the illegal and treasonous insurance policy in full action."

But while the president was taking aim at both McCabe and Rosenstein -- Rosenstein, by the way, tendered his resignation weeks ago, but is still the deputy attorney general over there at the Department of Justice at least for another little while -- White House officials saved their fire for McCabe alone.

Listen what Mercedes Schlapp said earlier today.


MERCEDES SCHLAPP, WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS:  McCabe has no credibility. He was obviously fired by the FBI. We know he's lied on multiple occasions, including under oath, and he's a partisan hack.

So he can -- he's trying to sell a book, but the mere fact is, is that he's a liar.



Now, there is a lot of questions being raised on Capitol Hill by Republicans about exactly what was going on here. South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, who is the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has said that he wants to haul both McCabe and Rosenstein up to Capitol Hill to testify.

No decision yet on when that hearing might occur, but we will keep you posted -- Charles.

PAYNE: John, thank you very much.

So the question now is, who's in legal trouble here, the president or McCabe or Rosenstein?

To former federal prosecutor Jon Sale.

Jon, some are actually calling this a bureaucratic coup or a soft coup attempt at the FBI of all places. From what we know now, where does this go?

JON SALE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, first of all, it's -- in my view, it's not the FBI. It's not the Department of Justice. They're great institutions.

It's a small number of people. It's not about President Trump. It's about the presidency. I mean, it's unthinkable that a small number of people were -- started a counterintelligence investigation which actually the first premise of that was that the president, President Trump, was an agent of Putin.

I mean, if that were the case, what is this, "Manchurian Candidate"? I mean, they would have gone to the Joint Chiefs. They would have gone to the congressional leadership.

I mean, this is just plain scary. I mean, there has to be a predicate, there has to be a procedure. And to go into the issue of wearing a wire, if -- first of all, I don't buy that it's a joke. The deputy attorney general doesn't joke about something like that.

And McCabe looked into the camera and he said that Rosenstein said that I will wear a wire. They don't search me when I go into the White House.

Well, my God, I mean, you can't make something like that up. And going in because they don't search him is breaching the security, is breaching the trust of the White House. And, I mean, I know what it takes to wear a wire. I have been a prosecutor for a long time. I have been a defense lawyer for a long time.

You need a predicate. It's got to be more than, hey, my God, my boss was fired, meaning the firing of Comey, which the president had a right to do.

Charles, just let me say, the president's not above the law. I mean, my Watergate prosecution experience taught me that. But this is not about that.

PAYNE: Right.

SALE: If we want to remove a president, that's what we have elections for, and, in extraordinary cases, we have impeachment proceedings.

But the 25th Amendment, to be talking about that, that was passed in the aftermath of President Kennedy's assassination. And it was really intended for if a president becomes totally disabled and can't perform his duties.

So I don't want to overstate and use hyperbole, but what was this? Was this some kind of a coup? I mean, in this case, President Trump is absolutely right. And let me say one other thing. This was reported in The New York Times about six months ago, and just now it's getting legs.

And I have got to get President Trump credit, because I don't know why he didn't fire Rod Rosenstein, because how -- having nothing to do with the Russia investigation -- how can you have a deputy attorney general who is talking about wearing a wire in the Oval Office, even if he's joking? You don't joke about something like that.

PAYNE: No, absolutely.

James Baker in fact suggested or hinted that this all began even before the so-called Russia problems or issues.

And, Jon, I got to say, it's really worrisome. And I'm glad you made the point the hierarchy of the FBI, the folks who are in charge, and not the men and women, rank and file.


PAYNE: President Trump is going to speak in a moment, so we have got to leave it here.

But, really, it's -- really enjoyed the way you explained all that, and the audience does as well

Folks, you're looking at Miami. President Trump is there. He's going to be speaking in moments on the crisis in Venezuela.

I want to go to Phil Keating, who happens to be in Miami, with the very latest -- Phi.


Senator Rubio, Senator Rick Scott, as well as Governor Ron DeSantis, all three Republicans, all three here, all three spoke, revving up this Venezuelan American crowd, full of people who have been living in Miami for years, as well as new arrivals from a nation that is spiraling in crisis and despair, that being Venezuela.

The problems down there are a mess. Inflation's going to reach 10 million percent this year, according to the International Monetary Fund. Food is scarce to get. In fact, it's so hard to get food and supplies of food just for the people of Venezuela to eat and feed their families, the average Venezuelan has lost 24 pounds since when Nicolas Maduro, the president, took office.

And the two men that are going to be targeted by President Trump -- and he should be walking out to the stage here any minute now -- are going to be President Nicolas Maduro, as well as opposition leader Juan Guaido.

Guaido is whom John Bolton, the national security adviser, just in a speech here, earlier referred to him as the president of Venezuela. This is who the White House recognizes as the legitimate president. They say Maduro is the dictator, a kleptocrat, and needs to step down from power.

All of these things will be hammered by the president to a very supportive crowd here today.

Got a little applause going on, but still no president just yet.

Also, Rubio, Senator Rubio's, went to Colombia with Congressman Mario Diaz- Balart over the weekend. They were in Colombia at the border with Venezuela at one of these bridges where Venezuelans have been carrying all they can carry out on their back and leaving the country.

Three million people have left Venezuela in the last couple of years.  Rubio and Diaz-Balart were there with some humanitarian aid shipments, which they say are having difficulty getting into Venezuela because the Venezuelan Maduro regime and military are so far not letting it in -- Charles.

PAYNE: Phil, thank you very much.

So, with Maduro digging in, are we at the tipping point?

Former State Department official Christian Whiton joins us now.

Christian, we have already said this is an emergency. We have seen the images. Phil just talked about the background here, Venezuelans losing weight, suffering mightily. We have got -- we have recognized Juan Guaido.

So what happens from here if Maduro refuses to budge?

CHRISTIAN WHITON, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY SPECIAL ENVOY: Well, what we could do is basically create a number of crises to help the Venezuelan people, create crisis after crisis after crisis, which every one of which is an opportunity for the police and the military in Venezuela to peel away from Maduro and support Guaido, which is what the people want to do.

So if you look at the assembly of aid packages, a large amount of aid coming together in Colombia, near the Venezuelan border, Maduro in the past has stopped this, despite the fact that his people are starving and in bad need of medicine.

You have Brazil also assembling a collection of aid. And also that's important. I think one thing Trump is doing here is reinforcing how isolated Maduro is. This isn't just the gringos coming in and telling South Americans what to do.

Quite the contrary. This is South Americans saying they want Maduro to go.  And who's on our side? Everyone pretty much is on our side, all of the heavyweights in South America. And this is the product of Trump foreign policy.


And at least 50 countries have recognized Guaido, but here's the problem though, Christian. I mean, you talk about these crises. And we know, in these socialist countries, it's always the elites who are -- who are isolated, right?

So while ultimately it may force their hand, initially, it makes a desperate situation for the regular Venezuelan even more desperate, doesn't it?

WHITON: It does, although, again, Maduro has really done that all by himself. It's not any sort of withholding of U.S. support or economics.  It's that country, which has tremendous oil wealth and could easily be the most wealthy country, both net and per capita, in South America who has been pushed through 20 years of socialism, although it's gotten a lot worse lately, to that.

So there's always a question if U.S. sanctions and U.S. pressures will actually hurt a freedom movement. But if you talk to people in those movements -- and there are -- cases of this go back to solidarity in Poland at the end of the Cold War -- they always want a lot of outside attention.  And even if they don't love the United States, although many people down there do, even if they don't, they want us to do what we're doing, which is put the spotlight on the dictator.

PAYNE: Right.

You mentioned the police and the military. I remember when Chavez was in charge, routinely, he would raise the pay of the military, perhaps -- perhaps seeing one day where this moment would come, where paying off the military and the police to a degree would be -- would be necessary.

Of course, Maduro picked up on that practice. There have been many times when he's elevated their pay substantially, where they live very well.  They haven't lost 24 pounds in the last year.

So where's the breaking point for the military? Where's the breaking point for the police? How do we negotiate that?

WHITON: Well, it is important to signal that people in the military and the police who have not been, say, leaders of atrocities that the average rank and file who are just following orders will not be displaced in a new government.

A huge problem, very different situation, but if you look at Iraq, where we dismissed the entire Iraqi military, that was a huge mistake.

PAYNE: Right.

WHITON: The military, in order to come over, needs to feel that they also have a future, although that top political level, of course, would have to be stripped off.

PAYNE: Yes, Colin Powell mentioned that as being one of the biggest mistakes that we made over there.

Real quick, finally, Christian, I do want to ask, if all else fails, how far do we go with respect to the use of force?

WHITON: You know, I don't think it'll come down to the need for the U.S. to go in.

To the extent Maduro conducts extremely -- does very bad things or threatens our national security, it remains an option. I think it's good the president hasn't taken off the table. But these regimes always look very tough and very solid until they're not.

And then if you look at long history of regimes like this that have been swept into history's ash heap, I think the people will get it. Again, the combination of U.S. support, international support, everyone coming together, Florida's two senators doing a great job down there themselves and back in Washington, so I think it'll happen without the need for any of U.S. military action.

PAYNE: Christian Whiton, thank you very much. Always appreciate it.

WHITON: Thanks, Charles.

PAYNE: President Trump getting ready to tell Venezuela's leader Maduro to step down. He's expected also to bash the dangers of socialism.


PAYNE: President Trump getting ready to make his case on why Venezuela's leader Maduro needs to go and how the South American country shows socialism is dangerous.

We will take you there live.


PAYNE: President Trump about to give a speech in Miami, where he is expected to call for Venezuela's leader Maduro to step down again and point out the dangers of socialism.

This as Stockton, California, is rolling out a new program to provide basic income for everyone.

Here now to discuss, FOX News political analyst Gianno Caldwell, Democratic strategist Antjuan Seawright, and Washington Examiner senior editor Kelly Jane Torrance.

Kelly Jane, let me start with you.

It's sort of, the world now knows what's going on in Venezuela. It was -- it had the opportunity to be among the wealthiest countries in the world.  They squandered it, as they have gone down this path of socialism.

And now this could be the endgame for all to see.

KELLY JANE TORRANCE, THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER: Yes, Charles, it's a very dramatic few weeks we have had in Venezuela. And it will continue to be.

I mean, you had Marco Rubio, the senator, on the border with Colombia over the weekend, showing the humanitarian aid that America and other countries are trying to get in to help the starving people of Venezuela.

And I know a lot of critics of the president like to say he doesn't care about people outside America's borders. Well, he certainly does, and I think he is going to be showing that in his speech today.

He also, of course, is going to be showing that he's not isolated from the international community. They're all working to help the people of Venezuela.

But, yes, this is a very stark reminder of what socialism can and always does lead to. You have three million people who have left Venezuela. The people are starving. You have Democratic economists here saying, we can pay for the Green New Deal by just printing money.

Well, Venezuela has a 130 percent million percent inflation. I think we can see where that leads to.

PAYNE: Right.

TORRANCE: So I think Donald Trump will be giving an interesting speech that involves both foreign policy and domestic policy.

He's certainly going to tie it to the many progressive Democratic presidential candidates that we're seeing on the trail right now.

PAYNE: And, Gianno, of course, this as we see the city of Stockton, formerly known as the foreclosure capital of America, institute a basic universal income scheme, $500 a month to about 100, 130 people.

It's been tried all over the world. And yet it's being used again to -- they say to fight poverty.

GIANNO CALDWELL, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, you know what, Charles?  I grew up in poverty. I understand it very well.

And having been in a family where we depended on welfare programs for essentially everything, I think welfare is a good thing for a temporary measure to lift you out of poverty. But the truth of the matter is, any government that can give you everything can also take it away.

And with the facts being that there's over 80-plus welfare programs throughout this country -- that's just for the federal level -- we have the support that we need to lift ourselves out. But there has to be conditions around it.

That's why I have an issue with any particular town that is just looking at give money away without some restrictions. People should be like the '96 welfare reform. They should have to work. They should have to go to school.

PAYNE: Right.

CALDWELL: No one is looking to take care of someone for the entirety of their life. And this creates a dependency mentality, which is not helpful for anyone.

PAYNE: Yes, Antjuan, this same program was tried in Finland over a two- year period with a lot more people, over 100,000 people. They spent $23 million. The initial results have not been that great.

They say they will keep examining, if they really changed anyone's lives.  In the meantime, they are -- they're going to do something where people can get help, but they have to show that they're learning a skill, that they're trying to work, something more akin to maybe work welfare that Bill Clinton brought in.

What are your thoughts on your party lurching towards this idea that some equate to socialism?

ANTJUAN SEAWRIGHT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I don't know if this is the sentiment or the feelings of the entire party.

Look, I'm a small business owner myself. Like Gianno, my family depended on government programs. I'm a beneficiary of some of them. And so I understand the importance of having a bootstrap program, but I also understand the importance of being able to do it on your own and work hard and at least try to find your way.

And so while I may not agree with some of the policy positions with those of my party, at the end of the day, I don't think we should brand the Democratic Party as a whole because of the ideas of a few or the thoughts of a few.

PAYNE: Well, we will see that hashed out, right, between now and 2020.

But it is interesting, Antjuan, that a lot of the leading -- the announced so far Democratic candidates have been OK with a lot of these ideas, and they say they're on board with them.

SEAWRIGHT: Well, I think what you heard from a lot of the candidates is, you heard framework or positions to talk from.

And you know as well as I know, on the campaign trail, how you campaign and how you govern, Charles, is totally different. And I think that if we don't have some of these goal, policy discussions of trying to fix health care, trying to fix education, trying to deal with infrastructure, trying to deal with the problems of our day, then we will never have a starting place to start from.

And so when you hear the candidates talk about or take policy positions, I haven't heard much drilled-down detail. I have heard 90,000-foot thoughts.  And I don't think anything's wrong with that. We see that in on both sides of the aisle.

PAYNE: You know, Kelly Jane, it is interesting that these ideas are being presented as a solution to problems where it feels like we have solutions.

In other words, in four of the last five months, we have seen non- supervisory wages not just outpace supervisor wages, but grow more than 3 percent. That hasn't happened in well over a decade -- 7.3 million job openings in America, 300,000 jobs created in the last month.

This -- so the promises that we're hearing from these programs are actually happening in real time. And yet there's a major, major attraction to these to these ideas.

TORRANCE: Yes, I have to say the idea that it's good to have these big ideas, maybe, maybe not.

I mean, what if those ideas are encouraging people in the idea that you can get something for free, which I think is all of these things that have come? We heard about Medicare for all. We're hearing about the Green New Deal.

And people aren't talking about how we're going to pay for them. And, of course, it goes beyond paying for those programs directly. You're talking about how great the economy is, Charles. Well, that is going to change if these big idea policies get in, because it's going to affect regulation, it's going to affect economic growth.

And I think it could create far more problems than they aim to solve. And you're right. I mean, what are the problems that they're aiming to solve?  I think, in some ways, these are just sort of pie-in-the-sky ideas without real details and real money attached to them.

SEAWRIGHT: Very much so. Very much so.

PAYNE: They may be pie-in-the-sky, but, Gianno, there's a Fox News poll, 57 percent of Americans have a favorable opinion of capitalism, 59 percent have an unfavorable opinion of socialism.

But when you drill down and ask, how has capitalism changed your lives, there's still almost 50 percent of Americans, well over 40 percent, who still aren't sure it's helping them specifically.

CALDWELL: And they may not know the real definition the capitalism.

To Antjuan's point from earlier, he said we can't allow the voices of a few to really brand the Democratic Party. And where he's coming from is place of being a moderate Democrat. At least, that's what I believe.

The truth of the matter is, the moderates don't really have a voice anymore. It's the extreme liberal left...

SEAWRIGHT: That's not true, Gianno.

CALDWELL: They really don't. It's the extreme liberal left.

It's the AOCs of the world and the Bernie Sanders that are creating this framework in which you referred to earlier. And this is what we're discussing now.

So, with that being the case, that's why it's going to be so difficult for folks to run to the left, all the way to the left in the primary, and try to come back to the middle in the general, because they continue to control the conversation, the AOCs of the world.


SEAWRIGHT: Gianno, Gianno, that's not...


PAYNE: I'm sorry, Antjuan. We have got to leave it there, Antjuan.

SEAWRIGHT: I got you.

PAYNE: I will -- just for full disclosure, I have had some of that government cheese too.


PAYNE: I will say, made a heck of a grilled cheese sandwich, didn't it, guys?

CALDWELL: It sure did.

PAYNE: Hey, thank you all very much.

Just as President Trump prepares to discuss the pitfalls of socialism, look at what capitalism is doing, the Dow and Nasdaq up for eight straight weeks, and many are wondering, can this winning streak continue?

We will be right back.


PAYNE: As you can see there, the crowd is getting really excited and revved up, President Trump and the first lady making their way out.

This, again, is a -- President Trump's going to make remarks regarding Venezuela, try to persuade Maduro to leave, as the world recognizes his challenger, and what every -- who everyone believes is now the rightful president of Venezuela, Juan Guaido.

In the meantime, he also -- President Trump will focus on the dangers of socialism. We are -- we see it firsthand in our neighbor to the south.  And yet it's remarkable how popular it's becoming in this country, particularly amongst young people and young voters in this country.

Ashley Webster is with me from the FOX Business Network.

Ashley, the Caracas stock exchange went to zero, practically zero, last.

ASHLEY WEBSTER, FOX NEWS BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, if ever the president wanted to show an example of what socialism can do to a country, a country, by the way, Venezuela, that is so rich with resources, with all the oil that Venezuela has, it was a shining star in Central America.

And then we get a system comes in where cronies and corruption take all of the goods, take all of the money, and leave the majority of the people dirt poor, and, as we have seen, in desperate situation right now.

I mean, this is just what can go -- what can happen in socialism. And it's just a very stark reminder of what can happen.

PAYNE: Well, it's happened time after time after time.

And Venezuela is in our backyard, but I always invite people to look at the study of post-colonial Africa.


PAYNE: Where many of those countries chose socialism over capitalism.


PAYNE: In part because they wanted to sort of separate from Europe. They also were looking up to Russia, which at the time look liked it was pretty successful in the 1950s.


PAYNE: But I think it set those countries back a minimum of 50 years on the global stage.

WEBSTER: Well, look at Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe was the breadbasket of Africa.

And, of course, it was -- then socialism comes in, and it becomes absolutely ruined. It becomes a barren wasteland.

PAYNE: There's always a dictatorship associated with that, isn't there?


The very top are the corrupt ones that will take all the money and all the goods and live a high life, while the citizens are left to struggle.
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