'Your World' on China's hypersonic missile

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China missile entering orbit a 'game changer': Dean Cheng

Heritage Foundation research fellow discusses Chinese space technology on 'Your World'

This is a rush transcript of "Your World" on October 18, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Do any of you of a certain age remember this image, Sputnik October 1957?

The then-Soviet Union stuns the world, announcing that it had launched a satellite into space, and that adding insult to injury, at least for American pride, just a few years later, indicating that it had launched the first human being into space, Yuri Gagarin.

Well, don't look now, but we have had another Sputnik moment on a Financial Times story that was, well, kind of put in perspective by The New York Post that we're reliving China's Sputnik moment, that it has an advanced technology here that is so unusual, people are starting to say, where did they come up with this low-missile technology that completely defies what we thought they were able to come up with on their own?

The big question right now isn't whether that's hypersonic missile, that can fly in a low orbit and not be traced, just the fact that they have it, but that we had no idea they were anywhere close to it.

Let's get the read right now from Lieutenant Colonel Danny Davis on the significance of this.

Danny looking at this and our surprise that they have it, even though China is backing away from talk that they have it, but they clearly have something, what do you make of it?

LT. COL. DANNY DAVIS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Yes, honestly, I'm a little puzzled at why everybody's acting like this is some surprise, when this is not a Sputnik moment.

Sputnik was -- they were -- Russians were the first one up into space. At the very best, China's third in line here already. And they're just trying to catch up, because Russia has already got a hypersonic missile. We have tested a hypersonic missile just within the last number of months.

And it's also important to point out that, as long -- as far back as 2016, the DOD report that they produce for Congress every year has been warning about and every year since that China's working on a hypersonic missile. So there is no surprise here.

But, Neil, the most important thing is that this doesn't change anything in capacity, because China's already had ICBMs that were faster than anything we could deflect anyway. So it doesn't change the capacity. It just shows that China is a developing, modernizing country that we have to take seriously.

CAVUTO: I'm just wondering the significance of a hypersonic missile.

How would you distinguish it from some of these ballistic missiles that we thought they had, and now that it's widened to this?

DAVIS: Well, it is a clear technological advancement. There's no question about that, which is why we're pursuing it so heavily, because even a lot of the missile defenses that are in the process right now of being developed, not yet on the board, cannot take care of even the ICBMs.

But this will now mean even what they're working on, if they get it, it's not going to be sufficient. So we have to develop new ones, new capabilities to defend against this. So, it is an advancement.

CAVUTO: Well, why is that, Colonel?

Does -- is it difficult to track? Is it, it has more flexibility? How would you describe it?

DAVIS: Yes, it is so much faster than anything else, which is why they call it the hypersonic glide vehicle, and many of them can maneuver, which makes it even harder to do.

So it's much faster than even the already very fast ICBMs that we know of.

CAVUTO: Colonel, if you think about this, along with their very advanced space program -- they just launched three individuals into space who are going to stay up there for six months, not in the International Space Station, their own space station -- they have aggressively got a rover on Mars as we speak right now.

They have explored the moon on the dark, far side of the moon as well. They have already brought lunar samples back on these lunar vehicles, unmanned vehicles. You could say, oh, well, there's still way behind us in the space program. But that's a little more than a couple of years. They're investing more in space than every other country combined.

What do you make of all that?

DAVIS: Yes, they are. There's no doubt about it.

But I think what this really illustrates is that we have just become accustomed to China to being like this third-rate power that's way beyond - - that they're not even a near-peer competitor, and they're now demonstrating that they are.

But, look, this doesn't add anything, and I mean nothing, to our security risk, because the Soviet Union -- or the Russians have had these same capabilities, much more advanced. And we deter them all the time. We have a 20-fold nuclear advantage over China even with all of this, so this is just for them to enhance their deterrent, but in no way does it add the ability for them to strike first, because they know we would annihilate them. Correctly, they think that.

CAVUTO: All right, we will watch it very, very closely.

For those wondering, that came after I spoke about these developments. We were showing you in that quad box all the latest space initiatives that China has embarked on right now, including these three astronauts who are going to be up at their own Chinese space station for the better part of six months, and some of these others on the moon and on Mars.

So, Colonel, thank you very, very much. We appreciate that.

DAVIS: Thanks.

CAVUTO: Now, the implications of all of this for a country that has a lot of money to spend.

Keep in mind that China runs a surplus, not only with this country, to the tune of about half-a-trillion dollars, but with almost every other country on Earth. And that is the currency that they seem to be tapping for these big initiatives.

Let's get the read from Dean Cheng, the senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation.

Dean, where are they coming up with all this money? Because this is serious money.

DEAN CHENG, HERITAGE ASIAN STUDIES CENTER: Well, this is serious money because the Chinese, one, they have a high savings rate. Two, they do have a state-run banking system, and they have a lot of state-owned enterprises.

So Chinese companies can afford to invest in places where they will never make a profit, because there are political advantages to be gained. Then, of course, it also helps out Chinese R&D. It's important to note China has a very substantial, robust R&D program of its own, but it's supplemented by intellectual property theft, which has been the focus of why the U.S. has imposed tariffs on China.

CAVUTO: Now, part of that alleged theft is the supersonic missile technology, to say nothing of the rover that is right now driving around on Mars that almost mimics to a T. our own.

Where in hell do they manage to get this stuff so quickly?

CHENG: Well, it's a combination of things.

On the one hand, they have a massive, extensive cyber economic espionage program. The Chinese military steals commercial secrets in a way that no other country's military is charged with doing.

But another part of this is that Chinese companies are very flexible, they are able to turn on a dime, to start production in very short order. And that, in turn, is in part because they face a lot fewer regulatory aspects.

It takes forever to start a new factory in the United States. We haven't built a new oil refinery in years. China's building 30-plus coal-fired power plants, nuclear power plants, oil refineries. You can be pretty sure that they don't go through all the regulations that an American company would have to.

CAVUTO: So, I'm just wondering what they're building here. What do you think?

CHENG: So, I think one of the most important things -- and I agree with Colonel Davis that the issue isn't the hypersonic glide vehicle aspect. It's the fact that this thing went into orbit.

It didn't just go up and come down. It went around the Earth at least once.

What that means is that we now have to look at every Chinese satellite as a possible nuclear delivery system. This is something we and the Russians both agreed on during the Cold War. This was highly destabilizing, very dangerous. So both sides said we will not develop what's called a fractional orbital bombardment system.

This Chinese system that they have tested, if it is correct that it's actually gone into orbit before coming down, is a game-changer, in the sense that now we have a much less stable world and much more potential threats.

CAVUTO: You know, Dean, this comes with the context of their provocative moves in and around Taiwan, including invading Taiwanese airspace, and now not too far offshore even threatening with their own fishermen looking for squid.

I just thought all of that and I said, is there a way to piece all this together? Are they assuming or amassing something and challenging the United States thinking that it won't do anything or should do anything?

CHENG: Well, the Chinese are pushing against all of their neighbors.

They're pushing Taiwan. They're pushing Japan. They're pushing India. There's been deaths along the Sino-Indian border, be -- as the border forces fought each other. But we're also seeing a China that looks at what happening Kabul in Afghanistan, looks at John Kerry saying that we should lift sanctions on Chinese solar panels because solar panels and climate change is more important than human rights.

And, yes, they're seeing an America that seems to be in retreat.

CAVUTO: All right, we will watch it closely.

Dean Cheng, thank you very, very much.

Again, China has officially said nothing on this. This was an F.T. tweet. But some of the technology and images saying, OK, proprietary to the F.T., seem to confirm a sentiment that's been building that China has rapidly been accelerating its high-tech defense end of the program just as it as its Martian initiatives, which, by the way, it didn't have a little more than 18 months ago.

Meanwhile, another development to follow in what's going on in Afghanistan right now, the effort to get people who are trapped there out of there, even though our soldiers have long left their.

Trey Yingst in Doha, Qatar, with more -- Trey.

TREY YINGST, FOX NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Neil, good afternoon; 365 people were evacuated from Afghanistan today and brought here to Doha.

We were on that flight and at the airport in the Afghan capital of Kabul speaking with these civilians, many of them Afghan citizens, but there were other foreign nationals among the group, including Americans. We talked with one man who works in Virginia, he's a U.S. passport holder, and another man who lives in Maryland who had a green card, a legal permanent resident.

And they shared the sense of relief being able to get out of Taliban- controlled territory. There's a real understanding there about the deteriorating security situation that does include threats from groups like ISIS-K. They also understand that many people were left behind.

Here's what it was like on the tarmac earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YINGST: It's the 18th of October and we are back in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, where evacuation flights are continuing. This story is not over. There are thousands of American allies still stuck in the country, along with U.S. citizens and green card holders. Their safety and security is a major concern for the international community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel very excited. And we are feeling great to return back to our home and our business and our work, also for the kids' school.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YINGST: We also talked to the Taliban's acting foreign minister today, who downplayed reports of people being trapped inside the country.

The reality on the ground, though, for so many, especially those who worked with the Americans in the past, is quite different. There are thousands of U.S. allies currently trapped in Afghanistan with no way out -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Trey Yingst, thank you very, very much.

The trouble with getting goods out or even to ports all around the country, as Jonathan Serrie has found, good luck finding them -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN SERRIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Neil.

I'm at a truck depot, which reports it is busier than ever. The reason? Take a look at our live drone shot, the nearby port of Savannah again busier than ever.

I will have a live report coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: A lot of goods are stuck on cargo ships. That, you have heard.

But even if we resolve that problem, you still have to get them off the cargo ships. And therein lies the latest problem, enough trucks and truckers to do that.

Jonathan Serrie in Garden City, Georgia, with more on that side of the story.

Hey, Jonathan.

SERRIE: Hi there, Neil. A lot of jobs for logistical engineers.

After pandemic shutdowns depleted inventory, a surge in consumer spending has increased demand. And you have shipments of goods coming into America's ports faster than trucks and trains can pick them up. Take a look at our aerial shots from our FOX Flight Team drone.

It's been giving us a bird's-eye view of trucks lining outside the nearby Port of Savannah, which is the nation's third busiest shipping container gateway.

I spoke with a vice president from Howard Sheppard, a family-owned trucking company that runs an operation near the port. Mitch Sheppard predicts the current supply chain bumps will have a lasting effect on logistics, even after the economy corrects itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCH SHEPPARD, HOWARD SHEPPARD: We're using what we call what the just- in-time approach and keeping just enough inventory on hand.

And I think people are going to reevaluate how they handle their inventory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERRIE: Trucking companies are trying to recruit new drivers. Many retired during the pandemic or were lured away by jobs in the now booming construction industry.

But efforts to recruit people recently graduating high school are complicated by interstate trucking regulations, which limit the activities of drivers under 21.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED CROWELL, GEORGIA MOTOR TRUCKING ASSOCIATION: They can drive the full width of Texas, they can drive the full length of California, but they can't cross the line from, say, the Savannah Port five miles over the bridge to make a delivery in South Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERRIE: And then, Neil, it's the issue of the long wait times while you're waiting for them to off-load cargo or to load cargo onto your truck.

Researchers at MIT estimate that, if you could streamline that process, to the point that every trucker in the U.S. gained 12 minutes a day of extra drive time, there would no longer be a shortage of drivers, Neil.

CAVUTO: Twelve minutes. We have got to be able to do that.

All right, Jonathan Serrie, thank you very, very much.

So, can we do that?

Mario Cordero, the executive director of the Port of Long Beach, California.

Mr. Cordero, thank you very much for joining us.

Where are we right now on this whole cargo impasse, if you will?

MARIO CORDERO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PORT OF LONG BEACH: Well, thank you, Neil.

CAVUTO: Thank you.

CORDERO: First of all, I think what we're doing here at the Port of Long Beach, and we're part of the nation's largest port complex, or the largest container port complex, we're exploring all options with regard to how we move this cargo with velocity, as opposed to with volatility.

And thus came the subject matter of 24/7, which I have referenced a couple years back, as we look forward to the volume that was to come here. So, I think one of the things that we're doing is, again, extending the hours. We have a 24/7 pilot project. That's not going to be an immediate cure. There are challenges.

Everybody has to be on board. And, of course, that includes the trucking community.

CAVUTO: Let me ask you a little bit about the 24/7 and whether it will make a significant difference, especially if that last report was right from our Jonathan Serrie. It's a matter of getting the trucks to the ships to get the stuff off the ships and get them out.

CORDERO: Sure. So, absolutely. It's a matter of the supply chain being 24/7.

So, again, I think, again, it is problematic for an immediate turnaround on this in terms of how you flip that switch. But the good news, I believe, is the collaboration that is being had with everybody in the supply chain, being truckers, the warehouses, the beneficial cargo owners and, of course, the port authorities.

There's a lot of robust discussion with regard to what needs to be done in the short term.

CAVUTO: The one thing I don't understand, the -- you have probably heard the transportation secretary that seems to think that this is really built on demand, that we came from an economy in park, I guess Pete Buttigieg is getting at, and then, all of a sudden, it's driving on all cylinders, and that that prompted this.

That begs the question, then, if we knew that was going to happen, demand would spike to the degree it has, why not move earlier to go 24/7?

CORDERO: Well, that's a great question.

And, again, there's a confluence of factors in terms of why we're here today with the situation that's before us. But to that point, Neil, I think that's why, back in 2018, I mentioned to this industry about the fact of we needed to move to a 24/7 mind-set.

So I think that for those who may question that, obviously, there's legitimate concerns in terms of how fast you do that. But, on the other hand, had we been 24/7, I believe we would have substantially mitigated the situation we have today.

And, of course, e-commerce, we can't escape the fact that Americans have elevated at a double-digit percentile the use of e-commerce.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CORDERO: E-commerce is 24/7.

CAVUTO: So, it really was a demand issue. The economy was booming back. That might have been part of it. But did we also discover that so much of what we like and then buy comes from China, or comes from Asia, but even the dependency on China, and then pulling things back just a little bit screws up everything, right?

CORDERO: Well, it is a global issue.

I think, again, whether it's in Asia or the United States or in Europe, this is a global supply disruption. And, again, the one good thing about the United States in terms of our GDP growth that's estimated for 2021 is a 6 percent growth. Could be a little bit more.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CORDERO: But it's -- consumer demand has a very healthy appetite here in the USA.

CAVUTO: What are the most likely things that you think, Mr. Cordero, that could be difficult to have under your tree this Christmas, if you just start now?

CORDERO: Well, if you start now, we hope that you will be able to obtain your -- complete your holiday shopping or attain your gifts.

But there is that risk that you might be shortchanged this year with regard to what you think may be on the shelf.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Like electronic items? Are electronic items a big part of that?

CORDERO: I think, Neil, everything's on that list.

CAVUTO: Yes.

CORDERO: Toys, electronic items, furniture. I mean, you name it.

I think, again, it's a variety of commodities that are being addressed right now in terms of what we need to do to make a better Christmas or a better holiday season. But I think we all agree that the holiday season for 2021 will certainly be better than what it was in 2020 with a number of reasons as to why that would be.

CAVUTO: All right, I hope you're right on that.

Mario Cordero, the executive director of the Port of Long Beach, California, it's a busy job. It's a heavy-duty job right there, to put it mildly.

All right, speaking of heavy-duty responsibility, the president of the United States, and working with Democrats, trying to say, all right, these programs, I will do away with, others, I will sort of compromise on.

Aishah Hasnie in the middle of all of that debate -- Aishah.

AISHAH HASNIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Neil.

Well, Democrats on the Hill say they are most certainly making progress on the president's agenda, but, in order to meet their self-imposed deadlines means some big cuts, some big heartaches and even some bad blood.

More ahead on that from the Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, if you want a deal, you got to win over Joe Manchin.

We're told that the president is planning on meeting with Manchin. We don't know on the phone or in person, this as Joe Manchin says a lot of these ideas Democrats have better be, well, means-tested. And it's getting mean - - after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, as I said, we don't know whether it's going to be in person or over the phone, but the president of the United States and Joe Manchin are ready to talk and update here how the president wants to win over the West Virginia senator, who doesn't like the cost of this program or so much of that human infrastructure package that has no means testing too.

A lot of benefits, he said, would be better if means-tested. It is a confusing mess for the parties involved right now, even though it's pretty much just Democrats arguing with Democrats.

Aishah Hasnie has the latest from Capitol Hill.

Hey, Aishah.

HASNIE: Hey there, Neil.

Do you remember when the president came to Capitol Hill and he said there are no deadlines? If it takes six minutes or six weeks, we're going to get this plan done.

Well, a little bit of a different tone coming from the White House today. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is certainly feeling an urgency to move things forward, to get things done. I think you have seen that urgency echoed by members on the Hill, who agree that time is not unending here, and we are eager to move forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASNIE: Oh, yes, time is not unending here.

This comes as POTUS will host two more meetings at the White House tomorrow, one with moderates, one with progressives. And moderates and progressives really still don't have an agreed-upon price tag for this big social spending plan, although Biden conceded last week that it will not be $3.5 trillion.

And because of that, Neil, some of their social programs may get cut down. That's leading to some bad blood out there. Let's take climate change, for example, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia opposing a $150 billion clean energy initiative that would have targeted coal and gas plants like those in his state.

Well, on Friday, Senator Bernie Sanders published an op-ed in West Virginia blasting Manchin for not siding with Democrats. And Manchin hit back, saying -- quote -- "I will not vote for a reckless expansion of government programs. No op-ed from a self-declared independent socialist is going to change that."

Democrats, though, other Democrats, remain hopeful something will get done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JARED HUFFMAN (D-CA): I would say the good news here is at least we're beginning to get some of the cards on the table from Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema. You have to do that in order to take the negotiations further and get a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HASNIE: OK, so less than two weeks away from that self-imposed Halloween deadline, not to mention all the other deadlines that are quickly approaching -- Neil.

CAVUTO: All right, Aishah, amazing.

Aishah Hasnie in the middle of all of that.

HASNIE: You bet.

CAVUTO: Let's get Phil Wegmann of RealClearPolitics.

Phil, I'm just going to ask you outright, can they score a deal? Forget about by the end of this month. By the end of this year?

PHILIP WEGMANN, REALCLEARPOLITICS: Infrastructure week is lasting much longer than anyone expected.

CAVUTO: Yes.

WEGMANN: And to sort of narrow this all down, just to sort of say where we're at, the White House has always wanted to spend a big bucket of money. Moderates have succeeded in negotiating a smaller bucket of money. And progressives, well, they're resentful that we're talking about a bucket and not a 55-gallon drum.

And so now that there's some sort of agreement that this is going to be in the $2 trillion dollar neighborhood, I think what we're seeing is, you have a lot of members who are not having the most high-minded, principled discussions amongst themselves, but instead are doing old-fashioned log rolling, pitting parochial interests against parochial interests.

And, sometimes, like Aishah pointed out there, there can be some bad blood, like what we're seeing from Bernie Sanders and Joe Manchin.

CAVUTO: You would almost think that Manchin and Sinema were Ronald Reagan twins.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: They're open. They're open to a couple of trillion dollars worth of spending, right? I mean, that is hardly paltry.

And the idea of Manchin's to look at maybe means-testing some of these programs and how you would qualify as a family for a child care tax credit, they're not wacky. I mean, Bill Clinton had come up with them back in the '90s with Newt Gingrich.

So why and how is it that they're so out of sync, where you almost get the idea the progressives want them out of the party? But where did they go?

WEGMANN: Well, we're still talking about very big zeros here.

I know that trillions get thrown out here and there in discussion, but this is a lot of money that is being debated currently. And you make a good point about the way that Manchin and Sinema are being treated in negotiations. They certainly are the fly in the ointment, but they're also the stand-in for Republicans.

You don't see Democrats going after Republicans. Republicans are not the boogeyman here. Instead, they're kind of out of the picture. Instead, this is an interesting fight between Democrats.

And the interesting thing here is, again and again, you have seen Joe Biden praise Bernie Sanders, his former opponent on the campaign trail. He told union members at the White House that a lot of the provisions were thanks to Bernie Sanders.

Joe Manchin, though, he didn't provide much of a lift for the president during the campaign. And, instead, he is representing the state that the former president won. And yet he's the one who is sort of holding things up.

At the moment, the question doesn't seem to be whether or not progressives are going to bolt like they did before in the House. The question seems to be whether or not the moderate president, who promised on the campaign trail that he was certainly more moderate than the opposition, can get the other moderates on board.

CAVUTO: Yes. Last time I checked, it was the moderate guy who won, but maybe I just -- I don't recall the election exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right, thank you very much, Phil.

WEGMANN: Thank you, sir.

CAVUTO: Phil Wegmann following all of that.

Well, we told you about the Chicago mayor who's hanging tough to her requirement that, you're in the police force, you better get vaccinated. A lot of people thought, after so many officers refused to show up, that maybe, maybe she would retreat.

She did not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Live in Chicago right now waiting to hear from Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, who is ready to announce her views on this vaccine mandate that she's got for public workers, particularly police. A lot of them were no- shows this past weekend.

And there's a concern that, if she forces the issue, they have no intention of showing up.

Garrett Tenney joins us right now out of Chicago.

Garrett, what's the latest?

GARRETT TENNEY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Neil, one of the big lingering questions with this mandate is, what kind of an impact, if any, will it have on public safety and crime?

That is because, as soon as -- starting as soon as tomorrow, any city employee who has not complied with this mandate will not be paid. And that includes the police. The head of Chicago's police union predicts that close to a third of the department will not comply with a mandate to either be vaccinated or undergo testing twice a week.

If the city enforces its policy, it would take around 3, 200 officers off of the streets during the deadliest year the city has seen in a quarter- century.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CATANZARA, PRESIDENT, CHICAGO FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: What I can tell you is, if our officers hold the line, there's going to be a lot less officers on the street if they're going to send them home with no pay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TENNEY: Despite those threats, Mayor Lori Lightfoot is not backing down on her mandate, which she argues is about keeping people safe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORI LIGHTFOOT (D), MAYOR OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: First responders police, fire, EMTs, they are literally in physical contact with residents every single day.

Those residents have a right to expect that those officers are not going to get them sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TENNEY: At this point, city leaders have not said what they plan to do if that many officers are off of the streets as a result of this mandate.

But there are several lawsuits that are pending right now filed by both the mayor's office, as well as the union. And a judge is expected to hear those arguments a week from today -- Neil.

CAVUTO: Garrett Tenney, thank you very, very much.

To Ted Williams on all this, a former D.C. homicide detective.

Boy, this is a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, Ted. How do you handle that? They don't want the vaccine thing to be forced on them. They quit or are essentially shut out without pay if they don't.

TED WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Neil, this is a no-brainer.

You are police officers. You are public servants. You're public servants that come in contact with citizens on a daily basis. Get the damn vaccine. Get the mandate. Get it over with.

You have got a union president encouraging his officers not to comply with the mass mandate to get this vaccine. The last union president died allegedly of COVID.

Just this morning -- and my condolences go out -- Colin Powell, a wonderful man, has died of COVID. This is a serious thing. These officers do not have the right to dictate to the city the manner in what -- in which they are going to work. They can bargain with it, as unions do all the time.

But get the vaccine. Get the needle in your arm. You are protecting not only yourself. You're protecting the citizens, and you're protecting your family that you have to go home to every night. This is just so dumb and stupid.

CAVUTO: All right, let me know next time, Ted, where you're coming from, because I wasn't quite sure.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: But I am curious if they don't, and she's going to force the issue and a good many of them leave. I think it's up to almost half the force might not show up or have to wait a long time before they even can. Chicago's in danger.

WILLIAMS: Well, quite naturally, the city would be in danger.

It's difficult to believe that law enforcement officers would just desert the city under these circumstances. But, if they do, I think the governor has to step in, bring in the National Guard, bring in state police officers to protect the citizens.

I got to tell you, citizens looking are asking, why are you being so childish, police officers? You are here to serve and protect us. If you don't want to protect us, you don't want to serve, then go find another job.

But you cannot...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Now, other public workers -- to your point, Ted, other public workers have been notified they got to get the vaccine, yet we didn't see anything like this pretty heavy response, as we have among police officers, to reject that.

What do you make of what's going on? Is it just bitterness with the mayor that goes beyond this, that she hasn't had their back, and with all the violence and everything else?

WILLIAMS: Neil, it's all something that's going on not only in Chicago, but all over this country.

In Miami, there are police officers who are saying, we don't want to be vaccinated. They're in Portland, Oregon, right now in Seattle, Washington. There are all these various movements.

But what is one thing that is just necessary and is knowledgeable is that police officers do not dictate to a city. And these police officers should know that safety is first.

Get the vaccine, you idiots. That's all you have got to do.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right.

So, Ted, I'm glad you're coming out of your shell. Let us know how that's proceeding. But we know where you're coming from.

Ted Williams, thank you very, very much.

We're going to find out, to Ted's point, exactly what the mayor is going to outline here. And she will probably force this issue. We hope to hear from her very, very soon.

And how the police respond, well, that could be anyone's guess.

In the meantime, no guessing about gas prices, still rocketing, but there's a major Wall Street firm that says we could get up to $200 oil.

And I have already done the math. That could mean anywhere from $15 to $20 gasoline per gallon. Really? Possibly?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, the fact of the matter is, maybe Pete Buttigieg was right on this aspect of the American economy. There is a strong demand for anything and everything. And that includes gasoline and oil and all of that stuff.

Unfortunately, the administration has taken out U.S. producers from the equation for the time being. That means we are relying on some nefarious characters that could stick it to us. Gas prices have been up 20 straight days here.

And if one brokerage firm is right, predicting more than $200-a-barrel oil, $200 a barrel, you do the rough math on gasoline prices, you could be at $12, $15, $20 a gallon. If that were to happen and build, then what?

Gary Kaltbaum with us right now.

Gary, as unlikely as that seems, of course, we couldn't have envisioned $70, then $75, then $80, then $83, $85 oil, and up, up, up we continue to go. What's going on?

GARY KALTBAUM, FOX BUSINESS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

And just remember, lumber just did what I call an Eiffel Tower move, though. It came back down. So you really don't know what distortions are out there. And, look, bottom line, if we even get near that, the economy won't be able to take it.

We already have a debt-laden, deficit-laden, leverage-laden economy, where we're just getting off the back from COVID. I think profits fall off a cliff. The consumer heads south. Business heads south. Unemployment heads up. And Katy bar the door, unfortunately, if that occurs.

And keeping fingers crossed whoever wrote this report was drinking a little too much tequila beforehand.

CAVUTO: Yes.

I'm wondering too about the spillover effect. We talked about the bottleneck at the nation's ports, now the paucity of drivers, truck drivers to get the stuff off the ships, so that it sounds like this supply chain disruption is just going to be a fact of life for a while.

KALTBAUM: It's a pain in the rear.

And all you got to do is go to some of your stores and see there's a lot of shelves that are empty right now. And if this continues and there's not enough supply and there's too much demand, prices are going to be forced up, and that's another problem for the economy moving forward, so definitely got to watch this. This is big stuff.

CAVUTO: All right, thank you, my friend, Gary Kaltbaum, following all of this.

You have heard a great deal about the life and the message of Colin Powell. The one thing that stood out to me in years knowing him and getting the opportunity to chat with him is his calm demeanor and his big, big belief that you must treat people like human beings, an ancient concept, I suppose.

Remembering that message and that man after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: A giant in the world of foreign affairs, in American affairs, in American patriots, praised by both parties today on news that Colin Powell has died at age 84 from COVID complications.

One of the things we have tracked in his incredible career were not only his triumphs, but his biggest regrets. He has made no bones about the fact that the whole idea of weapons of mass destruction, his arguments before the United Nations, while the evidence was supposedly there at the time and echoed by many others who looked at the same data, he regretted that very, very much, including in comments over the years with me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: Knowing what you do now, then, sir, would you have advocated going into Iraq as we did?

COLIN POWELL, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I can't answer that, because it's not what I know now. It's what I knew then.

What I knew then and what I believed then, based on all the intelligence that came to me, the intelligence that came to the president, the intelligence that was coming from other nations, United Kingdom and elsewhere, the same intelligence that went to the Congress, all the senators in the Congress, and the same intelligence that President Clinton used to undertake military action in 1998, the president made the right decision.

CAVUTO: In Afghanistan, it's looking to pass out a pretty big tin cup. It's looking for $45 billion over the next 10 years.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: I mean, how doable is that? And how much would the U.S. pay?

POWELL: Well, we're all going to have to contribute to Afghanistan's, not even reconstruction, construction, in the first instance.

This is a very broken country. And everyone who's been over there comes back with the same tale. Everything, everything is needed, a police force, a military that functions, a health care system, freshwater, housing, education, you name it.

And so the international community has a lot of work to do.

CAVUTO: You have the highest approval ratings of any leader or close-to world leader on Earth.

In fact, in this country, you are the most respected public figure, just judging by polls. Do you ever look at that, Mr. Secretary, and say, President Powell sounds good?

POWELL: No.

CAVUTO: At all?

POWELL: No.

I made my decision in 1995. I considered how I should spend the next phase of my life after leaving the military and spending a little time in the private sector. And I decided that I could devote my time to working with young people, as I did for a number of years.

And when President Bush gave me this opportunity to serve the nation again, I serve it again as secretary of state.

But I know who I am. I know what I can do and what I'm good at and what I don't think I'd be so good at. And elective politics was not the right thing for me to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: And that was it. He never did. He never did challenge Bill Clinton in the second term, as many people thought he might. He did not.

But he served nobly a number of presidents over the years. In fact, the president for whom he worked was the last Republican it looks like he supported in the White House.

Andy Card, the former White House chief of staff under George W. Bush, who remembers him well.

Always good to have you, Andy.

And if you think about it, after President Bush, he moved to supporting Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012, had very little use for Donald Trump, supported Hillary Clinton.

What did you make of that? Was it a change? Was it a whole new view of the world? What?

ANDREW CARD, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: You know, Colin Powell, first of all, it was wonderful to hear his voice.

And, boy, do we need the voice that Colin Powell just used talking to you from years ago in the public domain right now, really class act. And he was always a class act.

I first met him in 1983, when I worked for President Reagan at the White House and got to know Colin Powell then, obviously worked closely with him when I worked with President George H.W. Bush, and then I was secretary of transportation when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and then as chief of staff to George W. Bush.

And Colin Powell is the -- he was the real deal, I mean, grounded, had the courage to speak truth to power, was a phenomenal listener. He empowered everyone. He lifted people up. And his work in the military is legendary. His work in the White House is legendary as a national security adviser.

And his work as secretary of state, he proved to be one of the greatest diplomats in the world and greatly respected. And -- but what he actually did even beyond that was amazing, because he was the ultimate point of light in terms of making a difference.

He led America's Promise and the Little Red Wagon campaign.

CAVUTO: Right.

CARD: He's mentoring literally hundreds of people, and just done so much.

And he and Alma Powell are the prime definition of what it means to be a supportive couple. They were a great complement to each other. And, boy, do we -- we are going to miss them. And I respected Colin Powell very, very much.

I had tough conversations with him when I was chief of staff and he was secretary of state. That's kind of the job that we both had.

CAVUTO: Yes, he didn't like the political thing.

But I wonder, Andy, if -- and I know we're tight for time. I apologize for that.

But he left the Republican Party, it seemed, frustrated with the party, particularly when Donald Trump became president, saying; "We have a Constitution. We have to follow the Constitution. And the president has drifted away from it."

He had a lot stronger things to say that I can't repeat on a family show. But what did you make of that?

CARD: Well, it was the truth.

Colin Powell entered service, came from New York, Queens, New York. He entered the service, served in Vietnam. He wasn't a Republican or a Democrat. He was a soldier. And then he became a Republican later on. He supported George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush.

CAVUTO: Right.

CARD: He made a huge difference in diplomacy.

But he was never a strong partisan. And September 11, he rallied, but he was just a great leader, getting the rest of the world to be with the United States in the coalitions that worked in Afghanistan and then in Iraq.

And then let's not forget what happened on January 6. On January 6, Colin Powell had tears in his eyes.

CAVUTO: Yes, that still stuck in his craw. He never forgot that, said it was dangerous, yes.

CARD: And that's when he said: I can't be in this party.

CAVUTO: Got it. Got it.

Andy, I'm sorry very much for the tightened time, but thank you for your reflections on that.

I will just remember a man who was kind enough to always write a note. I would write a note to him and a prominent guest when they appeared on this show. He was one of the few to write a note back over my note.

Remarkable. Just remarkable.

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