This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 30, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."
The Russia investigation moving into a new phase today, the first indictments announced in a special counsel's probe and more could come, President Trump's former campaign chair Paul Manafort and one of his aides Rick Gates pleaded not guilty earlier in federal court on charges including money laundering and conspiracy against the U.S., the indictment makes no mention of President Trump, collusion, or the campaign. However, we also learned another campaign advisor George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty earlier this month to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians. The president's response to the news, quote, sorry, but this is years ago before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign, but why aren't crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus? Also, there is no collusion. The White House following up with this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today's announcement has nothing to do with the president, has nothing to do with the president's campaign or campaign activities. The real collusion scandal, as we've said several times before, has everything to do with the Clinton campaign, Fusion GPS and Russia. There are no activities or official capacity which the Trump campaign was engaged in any of these activities. Most of them took place well before the campaign ever even existed.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Can you explain what George Papadopoulos' role with the campaign?
SANDERS: It was extremely limited. It was a volunteer position. And again, no activity was ever done in an official capacity on behalf of the campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: Greg, you've been following this closely all day.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Very closely. I mean, so Paul Manafort, we're finding out, was involved in shady dealings prior to the election, and other breaking news, Kevin Spacey is gay. I know it's all mind- blowing. Everybody knew -- everybody knows, and you can look at it two ways, no evidence of Russian collusion or no evidence of Russian collusion yet. That's all you got. That's nothing else. I do sense a bit of deflation in the media. They're disappointed. They expected a pony for their birthday, and this is a goldfish. That's why you're seeing a lot of press saying, oh, this is only the first part. Just wait. Just wait. Just wait. And maybe they're right, but right now we knew this is coming. We knew what Manafort was. He's a hired gun that you hire specifically because he'll do whatever you need to do for four months and then he goes.
PERINO: I don't know if that's why you would hire him.
GUTFELD: What's with Papadopoulos? That is the world's greatest name. Papadopoulos.
GUTFELD: I'm just saying it's such a shock, isn't it? He's Hollywood's ladies man.
GUTFELD: Our generations Rock Hudson.
PERINO: . if we could talk about the actual charges for Manafort and Gates, so how serious are they? I mean, when you're talking about that type of money and money laundering and defrauding the United States. That's a pretty big deal.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: No, it's absolutely is. So this is really, you know, big, breaking news this morning. And what I found to be significant as well is for some reason he did not think or see that coming that the sources close to him said that, as of Saturday, even someone close to him said, you know, listen, he didn't think that he was amongst those included. I think there's more to come as well. And so I'm curious as to whether or not they're going to try to work or cut some kind of deal with him to get more information. But you know this is something I think that the president should steer clear of and not make any comments about it and let it work its way through, you know, the system.
PERINO: Yeah. I don't see any reason why they should defend Manafort? And not that they really did today, but why would you defend the guy, basically, if you're talking about draining the swamp. That's the kind of swamp creature you're talking about. Someone that's willing to break the law, work for a hostile foreign government, and then launder the money so that didn't have to pay taxes on it.
JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Just a delegate counter. Only there for a few months.
WATTERS: I don't remember, is it Paul, is it John? Doesn't matter. My mom called me first thing in the morning said, Jesse, Paul Manafort conspiring against America. Passes the phone to my dad, my dad says Manafort is going to rat out Trump, everything is gonna die. Now, my mom just texted me. She says Papadopoulos is the Gordon Liddy of the pack. How is your history? Do you even know Gordon Liddy?
WATTERS: So I think the left is really upset. It wasn't bigger.
WATTERS: . and they can't wait until the Watergate thing spirals out of control. I think it's easy indicted someone, as you know. Especially if you have a grand jury in D.C. Indicting a Republican is not that hard. It's much harder to convict. He's innocent until proven guilty. If anything, he's guilty of liking the finer things in life. Apparently, he spent $12 million on Beverly Hills shopping sprees, and Benz's, and Range Rovers, and housekeeping, and racked up a bunch of pricey real estate. I was reading -- I want to sound like Dana Perino.
WATTERS: I was reading the national review this morning, and then Anthony McCarthy, his article was excellent, and he said none of these charges are a slam dunk. None of them. He might have been overcharge in order to squeeze him.
Kim: That's what I've said.
WATTERS: And what did he basically do? He was lobbying for the government of Ukraine, and then concealed some proceeds from it. On the surface, it doesn't seem like that bad, but if you believe all the conspiracy theories. Once his looking at hard times. This guy doesn't look like he wants to spend a day in prison. He looks like he likes the soft things in life. You can't blame him.
GUILFOYLE: What does that mean?
WATTERS: No, no. He likes like plush upholstery and, you know, he's got a $20,000 a month housekeeper. There's no way this guy is going to spend a day in jail.
WATTERS: He'll start making things up to spend time.
PERINO: You can't be cool with hiding money so you don't have to pay taxes.
WATTERS: Absolutely not. Listen, if this guy is guilty of financial shenanigans, he should be charged.
GUILFOYLE: It goes back to 2012, and they have some trail.
WATTERS: Exactly. Like you said earlier, it predates him joining the Trump campaign.
WATTERS: Trump was not mentioned once in the indictment. There was no collusion here. There's nothing about hacking the election here. I think the real issue is Papadopoulos. I just like saying the name Papadopoulos. But Papadopoulos, what he did, Hillary did ten times worse.
GUILFOYLE: Way to pivot, Jesse.
WATTERS: Hillary was the one that paid millions of dollars to dig up Russian dirt to collude, and to influence an election, and possibly an investigation. Papadopoulos is just some 30-year-old overly ambitious guy that tried to dig up dirt, failed. Remember, Brian Fallon, Hillary's spokesperson, said getting opposition research dirt from foreigners is a good thing. And then tried to set up a meeting between Trump and Putin. That got killed by the Trump campaign. So maybe he's cooperating now. There are some emails going back and forth. The White House provided the investigators with those emails, but now I'm hearing something like he may have been wearing a wire which I think scares everybody.
PERINO: And Juan, let's get your take on this. Papadopoulos was arrested the day after the Manafort home raid that we've learned about in July.
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Right. So Papadopoulos is probably the most furious of the issues today in terms of looking forward, if you want to look forward. But let's stop for a second before I get there and just talk about Manafort, because Manafort has an interesting history I think is pretty well known. Manafort worked in Reagan's campaign in the 80's, starts his own lobbying firm with Charlie Black and Roger Stone, another Trump intimate. And then, goes off afterwards and he's representing some absolutely reprehensible people around the world. I mean, so the question becomes, and I think this is one issue you raised earlier, Dana. Why would Donald Trump hire Paul Manafort? I mean, it's a real question.
WILLIAMS: Well, what I mean is not like -- you say, wow, who are you bringing in the tent to represent you with this point?
PERINO: I mean, that's been known for a while. I mean, that was actually -- that was brought up at the time. But Manafort and his deputy, Rick gates, who also pleaded not guilty today, they were able to get the convention delegates.
WILLIAMS: No, that was after. That was after. He brings them back to, you know.
PERINO: I would imagine that's why you hire them because they know -- he thought he could do that job.
WILLIAMS: What I'm saying to you is we can hire lots of effective people who will employ all sorts of means in order to get what they want, but you don't bring them in if you're running for president and you realize this could have tremendous negative implications for you and for your reputation down the line. But to get back to Papadopoulos, I think that what we now understand is, and I think this is to me the most intriguing part he says he has a meeting with a professor over in London. And the professor says to him, oh, you know, Russia has a batch of emails on Hillary Clinton, a batch of dirt, right? And then we learn Roger Stone is saying, oh, yeah, more is coming. And then, guess what, more does come in terms of the hacked emails from John Podesta and the Clinton campaign. So the question is at that point.
WATTERS: I don't follow.
WILLIAMS: You don't follow what?
WATTERS: No. How you got from hacking Hillary's emails to the meeting.
WILLIAMS: How we got from the emails? He, the professor, who has contacts with Russia, and in fact that's the reason Papadopoulos was meeting with him, the professor says to him we've got a batch of emails from the Clinton campaign.
WILLIAMS: And then, what you get is people like Roger Stone advertising we've got lots to come, and the suggestion there would be that somehow it was communicated inside the Trump campaign that Russia was in fact working.
PERINO: Or and then there's another way to look at it, Greg, which is to say that they were blowing the kid off. A kid, he's 30 years old, and he's responsible for his actions. But that he's overzealous and they're basically like, please, would you just like -- please go away. This is not going to be a high-level thing. I don't know if that's what's going to happen. He pleaded guilty, so I guess.
GUTFELD: Enough of the professor. Where is Marianne? Where is she in all this racket? I don't know. You know, I do think that the Manafort scandal, what you're seeing now, is I guess, when you look at it, a problem that you hoped to have because it means you won. It's like they hired this guy and they go, well, he's actually a pretty dark character. But if we win, we'll deal with it then. And I think that's -- remember, they let him go pretty quick because they have him, they used him for one.
GUILFOYLE: He's a specialist.
GUTFELD: Yeah. The thing is, I mean, he was charged with conspiracy against the U.S., that's defined as an effort to defraud the U.S., right? Have you ever paid your dog babysitter in cash?
GUTFELD: That's the broader.
(CROSSTALK) PERINO: That's not me not paying it.
GUILFOYLE: It's Jasper.
GUTFELD: I don't know.
GUTFELD: Do you know what defrauding the U.S. is? Kneeling during the national anthem.
PERINO: So we've gone from blaming Clinton to blaming Perino.
PERINO: There was one other development today that sort of flew under the radar and it happened around 1:00 today. Tony Podesta, the big Democratic power lobbying guy, who we found out about 2 weeks ago was being spoken to by the investigators on Mueller's team, he stepped down from his very prestigious lobbying firm today. What do you think that means?
GUILFOYLE: I think it's significant. I think there's something in the wind, shall we say. And so, he's probably getting word, and he's probably getting prepared to kind of preempt if something could come down against him. But it makes sense if you look at the factual web of characters and associations here that's been unveiled over the last couple of weeks. I think that's a name we'll hear more about tomorrow and by the end of the week.
WILLIAMS: But he's a subcontractor basically for Manafort.
PERINO: He's probably company A or company B.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. It was more people coming into focus on this that are going to be indicted.
WATTERS: But he actually worked for Uranium One.
WATTERS: He got paid $200,000 to lobby on Uranium One's behalf. We all know Uranium One was behind the dossier.
WILLIAMS: So I think this is.
PERINO: Working with Manafort?
WILLIAMS: I think anybody -- anybody who thinks that this is, you know, the end of the deal, no, this is like early in the game. And basically this is about Mueller trying to put pressure, just as he succeed with Papadopoulos. Now he's putting pressure on Manafort to flip on potentially the Trump campaign. He wants to know whatever he can learn about Trump, about the Trump organization dealings, all of that now is in play.
PERINO: He has to take it to the grand jury, right?
WILLIAMS: Excuse me for a second. It occurred before Trump.
WILLIAMS: But the idea is that Manafort is locked into Russia, the Ukrainians, and that's why the Russians would have come to him and he would have gone to the Russians.
GUTFELD: So I guess what you're saying is, OK, all this bad stuff happened before Donald Trump, so maybe Trump's flaw was a less than stellar background check. We've all been there, including MSNBC.
PERINO: All right. We have more to come on this and we're not going to let it go. Much more to come on the big Russia probe development. Today, where will Mueller's investigation go next? Stay right there?
GUILFOYLE: Back now to the charges filed against President Trump's former campaign chair and his deputy in the special counsel's Russia probe. Judge Napolitano thinks this is just the beginning of much more to come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This is the first of many dominoes to fall that he is -- Bob Mueller is following the standard M.O. of federal prosecutors. You've got totem pole. You've got somebody at the top of the totem pole, that's your big prize. You're going to indict people going up the totem pole to see if you can squeeze them, threaten their ruination by loss of liberty and loss of property. This is the first of many steps and Bob Mueller putting together an enormous puzzle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Wow. What?
GUTFELD: He did three metaphors. He did dominoes, totem pole, and then a puzzle. That's very confusing, judge. Are we sure he's a judge?
PERINO: I'm pretty sure.
GUILFOYLE: OK, keep them, Greg. OK. Dana -- puzzle boy. Dana, so when you hear the judge say that, he says it is part of a puzzle, much more to come. This is what we're talking about in the last block to say I think this is just scratching the surface. This is what he started kicking it off with. And then, they're going to use -- what I did as a prosecutor. He gets these people and then from them you pull threads, and they try.
PERINO: Or you roll it up like a toothpaste tube.
GUTFELD: This is like metaphor hell. Threads and toothpaste.
PERINO: I can totally followed everything that's been going on.
GUILFOYLE: Of course, exactly.
PERINO: I think one thing that might have been a little bit of a surprise today is that Rick Gates gets brought up again, because people sort of forgot about him. He wasn't somebody who was let go immediately, as Manafort was. He stayed around on the campaign. He worked on the inaugural committee -- or the transition period right after the election, and then the inaugural committee. So I think that was a little bit of a surprise. Like, oh, I never thought about him.
I do think that in some ways people might have been surprised today that it wasn't Mike Flynn, the former national security advisor who's been on the campaign trail, who we know has been in contact with prosecutors in this case. So I don't know if there is more to come or not. I just -- I don't know. I feel like it's pretty locked up. This guy, Papadopoulos, got arrested in July, and we don't hear about it until today. I mean, that's a pretty tight operation I think.
GUILFOYLE: OK. Jesse, so when you hear them talk about, you know, there's more to come, et cetera, I mean, do you think -- you were mentioning in the last block that you really think perhaps they're going to try to use Manafort to get him to roll on somebody closer, et cetera, to President Trump inner circle.
WATTERS: I think you have to assume that there is major international conspiracy and collusion between Trump and Russia to buy into the premise that he's just squeezing Manafort in order to get the big fish.
WATTERS: What if there is no criminality with Russia?
WATTERS: So you're squeezing Manafort.
GUILFOYLE: That's what Peter King was saying that he's been present and privy for some of the actual testimony of people coming in, like Trump's lawyer, and nothing, so far, that he's heard suggests or ties in anything to collusion with the Russians. The best they can hope to do, Juan, is make kind of a tangential connection to say, well, maybe -- you know, President Trump and his team knew that Manafort had these connections, but where's the proof of that?
WILLIAMS: I think it's a little different is the way I would view it, Kimberly. Because I think, one, remember Manafort was at that meeting in 2016 that was arranged by Donald Trump Jr. And so, Manafort is at that meeting, Jared Kushner is at that meeting.
GUILFOYLE: With the Russian P.R. .
WILLIAMS: And we learned last week that the woman who was there, in fact, had no -- had been coordinated with the Russian government. So she's at this meeting. She says, oh, I've got nothing -- oh, it turns out she does have some connection to the Russian government. And then you have Manafort who took notes at this meeting. And guess who has these notes? Who recovered the notes? I don't know if he recovered them when he busted into the guys house, but he has Manafort's notes from that meeting. So he's going to want to know from Manafort, what happened at the meeting, and secondly, was their follow-up to it? So that then leads -- and this is, you know, how you were thinking. You were saying, well, there's no direct tie. But if they know that in fact the Russians are taking certain steps then they're going to take may be coordinated. It's not necessarily collusion by your definition, but mind it would be, hey, these two are working together.
GUILFOYLE: OK. One point to what Juan is speaking to, and Jesse you get to response to it. Now, if you look at the specific language in the indictment there's 13 wire transfers, and when you do financial crimes cases like this, you follow the money, you go back, and what it appears to me is that Mueller is really trying to stretch the timeline by showing these series of 13 wires from 2012 to 2014 to show it is actually in, sort of, the nexus of that time frame of the connection and a relationship with, you know, President Trump and the campaign, et cetera. So trying to like move it down here to then where he starts working for delegates, et cetera. To me, that's what I see that he's trying to do to rope it in.
WATTERS: Does the timeline stretch as far as 2016? Because what I read it went to 2014.
GUILFOYLE: 2014, 100 percent, and then it says at least until 2016.
GUILFOYLE: So that is an attempt. You can say, for example, say I'm going to plead a case, I'm going charge a defendant, and what do we all say? We say honor about -- you know, December 12, so it could be 11, it could be the 13th, and that's how you cover it. You put a sort of.
WATTERS: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to speculate. And it seems like you know what you're talking about just to.
GUILFOYLE: It looks like it.
WATTERS: To Juan's point too, you're talking about the Russian lawyer at the meeting at Trump Tower. Now, she's been tied to Fusion GPS as well. So if you do pull the thread and we come back to having Mueller investigate Fusion GPS, and we talk about Podesta, not the brother, the actual campaign chair saying to the senate that he had no idea who paid for this. That seems like a lie, and it also seems like paying for Russian dirt to influence election. So if his brother falls as well, you could have the same thing that happened with James Comey.
WATTERS: Where the minute the Democrats, they love James Comey, impeachable, man of integrity. And then what happened in October? He turns things around and they start crushing Comey again. The same thing could happen once the Democrats fall they're going to start impeaching the integrity of Mueller.
WILLIAMS: How is the island working for you?
WATTERS: It's great.
GUTFELD: I'm changing my name.
GUILFOYLE: I'm going.
GUTFELD: Tell the producers to shut up. I'm changing my name to Gutfeldopoupolos.
GUTFELD: So from now on you will address me as Gutfeldopouplos. Lookm what do they have Manafort on? They've got him on money laundering, which is essentially passing off a legal funds as legit profit from a business. How different is that than hair and makeup? Seriously, look, it takes something awful and they make it beautiful. That's all it is.
GUILFOYLE: OK. Hillary Clinton has investigators of her own to worry about. And what a surprise, she's blaming us again for her mess, next.
GUTFELD: So does Fox News have Hillary on the brain? Hillary thinks so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I would have much preferred to have come to the dinner tonight from a slightly closer residence. But it does strike me that in the last few days, at least Fox News seems to think that's where I live in the White House, because they spend a disproportionate amount of their time talking about impeaching me. They want to make a trade. I'd be more than willing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: Oh, Hillary, you big loser. It's true: she lost. That's a fact. But it is true we at Fox News do love some Hillary because she is in the news even though she lost. And it's because she lost that we're now finding out more about her campaign dirty tricks. This is the side benefit of Trump's win. The renewed reporting keeps turning over rocks where we keep finding Hillary and her cronies. And who's turning over those rocks? It's The Hill; The Washington Post; and yes, even Mother Jones. That's not "Fox & Friends." And it's news that the lurid dossier was paid for by the Clinton machine, collusive offspring birthed by Democrats and Russians, then obscured by layers of outright lies.
GUILFOYLE: That was good.
GUTFELD: The real issue is that this dossier was a big part of the justification for Mueller's probe.
So they paid for a shady dossier, got an independent counsel out of it, and now they're getting indictments from that independent counsel that are unrelated to the dossier. At this point, they paid to get Manafort indicted for stuff that's unrelated to the election. Hilarious.
Would we have known that, had Hillary won? Doubt it. But let's not forget that the person spending the most time on Hillary is Hillary. Her "blame everyone but me" tour keeps going. She's the Energizer bunny in a pantsuit. If she was like that before the election, maybe she would have that slightly closer residence she had been wishing for now.
Well, you know, Dana, I went over the list of people that have investigated -- it's not FOX news. We don't run Mother Jones. Although sometimes I'd like to.
PERINO: Well, you know, if they have a good story, you might do it.
I do think that, so like, on the left, any development in this Russian investigation has been called the smoking gun that proves...
PERINO: ... that Donald Trump is -- had definitely colluded with the Russians. But the opposite is true.
PERINO: When anything there's -- brought up about Hillary, the right says this is absolute proof that she was dirty and she was the one. So I think that's why, if they can keep the integrity of the investigation, then that would be the best thing for America. Just to get it done. Let the chips fall where they may. The facts are what they are. And then we can just move on with our lives.
GUTFELD: You know, Juan, she's making fun of us about talking about her, but she's everywhere. She's as visible as Trump is on that book tour. I turn on the TV, she's staring at me. Sometimes the TV is not even on.
WILLIAMS: But I think that the right just -- they make her, like, bigger than life.
GUILFOYLE: Look how big she is back there. The back screen.
WILLIAMS: It's -- it's unbelievable to me, because it's so -- it's striking. Nancy Pelosi...
WILLIAMS: ... used to be like, you know, the whipping boy, and now it's Hillary Clinton.
But you know, the reality is that, even before the dossier, Greg, we knew that Russia and the government -- the United States government was investigating Russian interference in the election. But, you know, when Hillary Clinton complains and then I turn on, and I see people saying, "Lock up Hillary," I think, well, maybe she has a point.
GUILFOYLE: No, she has a -- Hillary attacked FOX. Look at how giant. It's...
GUTFELD: I don't know. Jesse, I've got to say.
GUILFOYLE: She's putting herself out there in the news all the time.
GUTFELD: By the way, I'll admit it. I enjoy doing segments on her, because it's comic relief.
GUILFOYLE: You seem more cheerful, actually.
GUTFELD: I am. I'm very happy. She makes me happy.
GUTFELD: She's the other woman in my life.
GUILFOYLE: You can't tell. Like, is she president? Because she's in the news every single day. She's speaking and doing something.
WILLIAMS: Donald Trump loves to talk about her.
GUILFOYLE: He's minding his own business, just tweeting.
WILLIAMS: Last week, all he did was talk about her, because he was throwing up smoke in anticipation of Monday's indictment.
GUILFOYLE: I know, but she -- well, that's what you think, but she's talking about him. He's talking about her. It's back and forth. It's norms of reciprocity. Just sharing back and forth with one another.
GUTFELD: Jesse, I want to play this. This is a sound on tape. That's what we call it on television. A SOT. It's Kellyanne Conway on a show in the morning on FOX called "FOX & Friends." You might have heard of it. It does OK on the ratings. Talking about -- talking about HRC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO DONALD TRUMP: Look, we would be happy to stop talking about Hillary Clinton and the campaign. We dispensed with her a year ago, but she just won't go away. People are covering her book like it's not not-fiction, and they keep talking about what happened a year ago in these campaigns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: I mean, Hillary is like the boxer that won't leave the ring when the fight's over. And she's still out there throwing punches.
GUILFOYLE: Punch drunk, yes.
WATTERS: Of course we're going to cover that. And Hillary making an impeachment joke. A little bit on thin ice there, Hillary. The last president that was impeached was your husband.
In a certain way, I think she'd likes that FOX covers her the way we do, because it makes her feel relevant. Without FOX doing it, there'd be no buzz with Hillary.
GUILFOYLE: Gives you something to talk about.
WATTERS: But you know when Hillary points her finger at FOX, you know she's guilty; and that's a signal to her friends in the media to look the other way and cover the treatment of her on FOX as partisan and not serious.
GUTFELD: All right. ON that note, new anthem protests on the football field. This time players taking a knee against their owner. That drama next.
WATTERS: An overwhelming majority of Texan players took a knee yesterday but not to protest social injustice. They were demonstrating against comments made by the team's owner.
Bob McNair quoted saying, quote, "We can't have the inmates running the prison" at the NFL's owners meeting last week. He's since apologized.
Not a great analogy, Juan. I can see why many of the players are upset by that. How do you feel?
WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, there's a subtext to this whole thing, which is race. And so initially, when Colin Kaepernick started this, this was about how the police deal with especially poor black men and a high number of incidents of black men being killed.
Now it then went to another level this season, with Trump bringing in all these things, including saying, "Oh, these owners are just afraid of the players," like "Oh, it's a bunch of white guys afraid of black." What is this? I don't know.
But now, when McNair is quoted in ESPN, the magazine, as saying, "You can't have the inmates," as if black men, prisoners, the stereotypes. I mean, it was insulting.
And so now it's gone -- I mean, this thing continues to spiral.
WATTERS: No pun intended.
WILLIAMS: And now you have the players saying, "Hey, you know what? The owner knows that we -- not only are we playing hard and playing our hearts out, we put our bodies on the line for his team every week, and this is what he thinks of us?"
WATTERS: It's just a shame, Kimberly, that politics now has destroyed football. It's every week, and they're kneeling for everything now. I'm not saying what he said was right.
WATTERS: But at the same time, week after week after week people are taking a knee.
GUILFOYLE: I think it's just such -- become such a distraction. So now, instead of, like, getting the score, what you do is you get the kneel.
GUILFOYLE: Who kneeled, who didn't, who stood. OK, let's do that. OK, I got it, but let's move on and actually focus on the sport and what they were paid to do and intended. I just think it's -- it's just gone on too long right now. And there is another venue where they should be addressing those concerns.
GUTFELD: On Neil Cavuto's show. You can kneel on Neil.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, it's actually perfectly appropriate.
WATTERS: That's right. Gutfeld, how do you feel about this? My take is, you know...
GUILFOYLE: He feels...
WATTERS: ... the kneeling has gotten to a point where no one cares anymore.
GUTFELD: Well, you know, I want to focus on the actual idiom. Idiom. Remember the "empty barrel" was construed as racist?
WATTERS: You can't say that.
GUTFELD: Yes, but it's not racist at all. We know that it's not racist.
The correct phrase that the owner was looking for, "the inmates are running the asylum." This idiom has been used forever.
GUTFELD: And we've talked about it. It's been used on Washington. It's been used -- it's used in high school: "Oh, my God, the idiots are running the asylum." It's an old phrase.
He changed it when he said "prison," and what happened is, that was a mistake. He should have use the correct idiom.
However, you could argue that, if you see that as racist, you're the racist for assuming "inmates" means "blacks." That's -- and he -- if he meant that, he wouldn't have said it, because he knew it would have been suicide. So he said -- when you say -- he said, "The inmates are running the prison," he says that all these players are like prisoners because they're black.
No, he was trying to use an idiom, and he used it clumsily, which leads to my bigger -- my bigger point here. Who's getting in the most trouble over these things, over language? Older people. Older people who do not know that the world has changed. So everybody that comes up...
GUILFOYLE: Do you know somebody like that?
GUTFELD: Yes. I know a few people like that. But they don't know. And it's like you say, "The inmates are running the prison," and they go, "That's racist." And the guy is going, "I wasn't being racist. I was just saying -- and everybody uses that." And it's like, "Well, no, you can't say that anymore."
GUILFOYLE: And they say inmates are running the asylum.
GUTFELD: Yes, inmates are running the asylum. He screwed it up. But he didn't -- if you actually thought he was trying to be racist, you're seeing that.
WATTERS: Would you agree with that assumption.
PERINO: I think when he tried to then further clarify, he said that he was talking about how they had been making strategic decisions affecting our league without adequate input from ownership over the past few years.
PERINO: So I think that's what he was trying to say. You use idioms because it helps...
PERINO: ... facilitate conversation, because everybody knows what you mean.
GUTFELD: But what if they don't.
PERINO: But if you are clumsy, you say the wrong word.
GUTFELD: Or if a generation doesn't know. Young people under 30, maybe they've never heard that one before.
WILLIAMS: I think we've heard it before, but I think also, remember what Donald Trump said. Donald Trump said, "You can't have the owners operating in such a way that would indicate they're afraid of the players."
And again, the owners are white and Trump supporters. The players are black. I don't know who they support or not, but you can make all sorts of assumptions. But clearly, Trump has been using this to divide people left and right.
GUTFELD: What if you don't see race?
WATTERS: Yes, what if it was white players, Juan, that were kneeling, what if it was predominantly white players?
WILLIAMS: Well, then you'd have a different situation.
WATTERS: Well, no, no, but do we, Juan? Do we have a different situation?
WILLIAMS: Yes, we do.
WATTERS: Wouldn't the owners still not want the players to kneel, regardless if they're white or black?
WILLIAMS: I don't know. The situation...
GUILFOYLE: Regardless of color.
WATTERS: The owners wouldn't want a white player, a black player kneeling at all.
GUILFOYLE: The objection is the knee, not the skin color.
WILLIAMS: I think we -- excuse me, I think we politicize football. I go to football, and I can tell you about the shows of the jets flying over and the big flags.
GUTFELD: Patriotism. That's fine.
WILLIAMS: This was brought in, Greg, recently in order to sell the sport as an expression of patriotic fervor. It's not...
GUILFOYLE: Well, look at how the World Series is going.
WILLIAMS: That's politics.
GUTFELD: I don't think patriotism is politics.
GUILFOYLE: To Greg's point...
GUTFELD: But maybe I'm old school.
GUILFOYLE: To Greg's point, you're saying if you say that, it's because you're looking at it through a racial filter or a prism where that's what you're looking and expecting to see. Like, you've trained your mind, right, to be able to see it that way.
GUTFELD: It makes a running to prism.
GUILFOYLE: It says more about you, he said, than the person that said it. And he's trying to say that if the guy, it was obviously racist if he said it that way, he would know that it would be perceived that way and, therefore, he would, in fact, not make the same mistake.
GUTFELD: Exactly. Thank you.
GUILFOYLE: Do I speak Greg?
GUTFELD: You're going to defend me at trial.
WATTERS: I actually just want to remind everybody that the kneelers on the Texans, they lost.
When we return, top Republican slamming Special Counsel Mueller on leaks coming from his investigation. Right back.
WILLIAMS: As you know, the first charges were filed in the special counsel's Russia probe. Word got out on Friday that this was coming.
Trey Gowdy and some other top Republicans suggest the leak to the press could be criminal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The only conversation I've had with Robert Mueller, it was stressing to him the importance of cutting out the leaks with respect to serious investigations. So it is kind of ironic that the people charged with investigating the law and executing the law would violate the law.
And make no mistake. Disclosing grand jury material is a violation of the law. Somebody violated their oath of secrecy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: It's true.
WILLIAMS: Go right ahead.
GUILFOYLE: Well, this -- they're supposed to preserve the sanctity of the grand jury proceedings and indictments. And look, everybody knows about it. Everybody knew before it was coming out, and it was leaked. So he's absolutely right, and he is a former prosecutor. He knows that is inappropriate, what transpired here.
I mean, of course, there was speculation before, early on in the investigation. Obviously, Manafort. And we saw them target his house and go in there with a whole team, et cetera. That was also kind of unbecoming, in that it was done in such a large, like, splashy way.
And now this situation. So you know, they have to do an investigation into that. It's never ending, like you know, a ball of yarn, Greg. Metaphor Monday.
WILLIAMS: But didn't -- I think Dana mentioned Papadopoulos was actually not only arrested and charged but pled guilty; and we didn't know about it at all.
WATTERS: Dana makes a great point. They kept it under wraps. But there have been other leaks by the Mueller team, we believe. And that needs to be subject to scrutiny. They leaked that Trump was under investigation for obstruction of justice.
WILLIAMS: They leaked that?
WATTERS: Leaks came out of the investigation. You can't necessarily pin it on Mueller, but things are getting out into the press that shouldn't.
GUILFOYLE: Against federal law.
WATTERS: For instance, subpoenas against Don Jr. for his meeting; that the grand jury was impaneled in D.C.; and that the probe was expanding into financial crimes.
So people on the right will say, listen, when you add that to the fact that there's been a lot of high-profile Democratic attorneys assigned to this case; when you add that to the raid that was pretty strong; and the fact that Mueller is buddies with Comey; and Mueller was at the FBI when the Uranium One deal was looked at, and then the investigation was not followed through with. There seems to be some suspicion around his impartiality. And -- but I think it's best that everybody just waits and see what happens next.
WILLIAMS: Well, Dana, in fact, Trey Gowdy also says it's very important for Republicans to give Bob Mueller time and a chance.
PERINO: Yes, they said just let him do his job. And I don't know who -- I don't know who is leaking, but I do know that the -- just because I used to work at the Justice Department.
GUILFOYLE: Federal crime.
PERINO: So when you have a special prosecutor, you have to then keep the Justice Department apprised of what's going on. When the leaks have happened, it's at that juncture. It's when the Justice Department learns of it, or the attorneys for the people who are targeted...
PERINO: ... learn about it, because then they can get it out there, and it might work in their interests to let people know that it's happening.
WILLIAMS: Gee, you think? As a reporter, I can tell you, those are good stories. Greg.
GUTFELD: I think we need Depends for the soul. All this leaking.
Alan Dershowitz is right. He wrote a column on this. These investigations should be open like the 9/11 Commission, where you take evidence in public, and it's conducted by nonpartisans.
Because instead, what you have here is what Alan Dershowitz has coined the criminalization of political differences. He has a book out on it. And he's a legendary liberal. He's a progressive. He voted for Hillary. But even he knows that we are criminalizing political differences.
WILLIAMS: All right. "One More Thing" is up next.
PERINO: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- K.G.
GUILFOYLE: All right, thank you, Dana. So we can take you live to the White House, where you can see first lady Melania Trump and the president of the United States, Donald Trump, giving candy to the kiddies.
Greg, you're missing out. So this is on the South Lawn.
GUTFELD: That wasn't a costume.
GUILFOYLE: It's happening right now in honor of Halloween. It was very cute. Can you imagine the memories of the children to be able to be there at the White House and getting candies from the first lady and the president?
PERINO: Can't take candy from a baby.
GUILFOYLE: Greg would.
PERINO: It's pretty good...
GUILFOYLE: I like it. It's very nice.
PERINO: Greg, you get to go next.
GUTFELD: Excellent. I haven't banned a phrase in a while. So let's ban a phrase: "open secret." I am so tired of hearing this phrase. It is a contradiction. If it's an open secret, then it's not a secret.
We keep hearing this about Weinstein and James Toback and now Kevin Spacey. It's not an open secret in Hollywood. It's open enabling by Hollywood hypocrites. Essentially, Hollywood is now a sanctuary city for abusers and rapists.
GUILFOYLE: That was sort of monologue-ish. Like, you could have done a monologue on that.
GUTFELD: We'll be right back.
PERINO: We get to go to Juan next.
WILLIAMS: Well, great game in Houston last night. Astros came back in extra innings, a thriller, and they beat the Dodgers. All this action, though, not on the field. Watch this.
GUILFOYLE: This is unbelievable. Right? Oh, my God.
WILLIAMS: Yes, so at first glance, this looks outrageous. But it turns out the guy who grabbed the ball is the brother-in-law of the woman who caught the ball. The two are huge Astros fans, and neither wanted any part of a ball hit out, off the bat of a Dodgers.
GUILFOYLE: Nuts or what?
WILLIAMS: I thought that was pretty -- because it looks different.
GUILFOYLE: That game was amazing. Did you stay up all night?
WILLIAMS: No, I don't stay up much. I think Jesse stayed up all night.
GUILFOYLE: I did.
PERINO: It had bigger ratings than the NFL, didn't it?
WILLIAMS: I'm sorry.
PERINO: It had better ratings than...
WILLIAMS: Better than the NFL.
By the way, do you remember a few weeks ago, folks, I highlighted a missed call that may have cost the Nationals their game. Well, guess what? Major League Baseball has now confirmed the umps were wrong. My team robbed.
WATTERS: Wait a second, time out. Juan can't get two "One More Things."
GUILFOYLE: He just did.
PERINO: You do it all the time. You promote your show, and then you do "One More Thing."
WATTERS: You, too.
GUILFOYLE: A seven-part series.
WATTERS: Yes, enough, Juan. Anyway, also at the game the other night in Houston, W. was out there with his dad. And his father passes him the ball. H. Dub's looking good right there. And the Astros pullover. And W. walks out to the mound. Fires it right down the middle.
WILLIAMS: There you go.
WATTERS: Still got it after all these years.
GUILFOYLE: Throwing the heat.
WILLIAMS: Remember 9/11? After?
WATTERS: That's right. Same deal. Except 9/11 was from the rubber.
WILLIAMS: He did pretty good.
PERINO: And the bulletproof vest.
All right. Mine is that Jesse knows one of these guys. There are four teenagers running for governor in Kansas, and The Daily Wire got an exclusive interview with all four of them and did a forum. And you've got to look at this and see their answers. They've got really smart takes on things, and there's no age limit -- or age requirement to run for governor of Texas. So -- I'm sorry, Kansas. There's one Democrat and three Republicans. Very libertarian, actually, in many of their views. If you have a chance to check it out. So a little exercise in civics there. What do you think, Jesse, about those guys?
WATTERS: Well, I interviewed the one on the right sitting down. And he's modeling his campaign after Bernie, so good luck in Kansas.
PERINO: Very, very good. All right, set your -- I'm sorry, what? I have to stretch. We're trying something new.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, yes.
PERINO: Stretching. Because we are going to...
PERINO: ... have a special handoff to a very good friend of ours. What does that signal mean? OK. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" up next.
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