This is a rush transcript from “Media Buzz” December 6, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is MEDIA BUZZ. I'm Howard Kurtz.
Martha MacCallum joins me shortly, and there's two Georgia Senate runoffs.
As President Trump keeps slamming the media in his battle to reverse the
election results, he's (Inaudible) by numerous judges and governors, some
of them Republicans.
But there was a thermonuclear reaction through an Associated Press
interview with Attorney General Bill Barr, often painted by the press as
doing Trump's political bidding who said the Justice Department has been
investigating, but to date we have not seen fraud on a scale that could've
affected a different outcome in the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNKNOWN: The truth is that Barr has no knowledge of systematic fraud
because there has been absolutely no evidence of systematic fraud, which we
have seen in state after state, Republican and Democratic led.
UNKNOWN: He's saying the president who is trying to undermine democracy
and cheat and steal an election, and perhaps, perhaps at the very end, he's
now saying I cannot go along with this any longer.
UNKNOWN: For the attorney general of the United States to make that
statement, he's either a liar or a fool, or both. He may be perhaps
compromised. He may be simply unprincipled, or he may be personally
distraught or ill.
UNKNOWN: the Justice Department said yesterday and they got a lot of
attention, they haven't yet collected enough evidence of fraud to change
the outcome of last month's election, it doesn't mean there wasn't fraud or
it doesn't mean they won't.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): The president offered a rebuttal of sorts in a form of
a 46 minute Facebook video revisiting his claims of massive election fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE United States: We already have the
evidence, and it's very clear. Many people in the media and even judges so
far have refused to accept it.
UNKNOWN: The president released what is essentially a propaganda video on
Facebook repeating some of the same lies he and his team have told about
the election results since November 3rd.
UNKNOWN: The president today in a video that frankly the media just want
to ignore. He expressed his legitimate frustration over the inability to
verify the ballots authenticity.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): NBC reporter asked Trump about Barr's finding of
widespread fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNKNOWN: Given that, why is now not the time to concede?
TRUMP: Well, he hasn't done anything.
UNKNOWN: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr ?
TRUMP: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.
KURTZ (on camera): Joining us to analyze the coverage in New York, Will
Cain, co-host of Fox and Friends Weekend, here in Washington, Kristen
Soltis Anderson, co-founder of Echelon Insights and a Fox News contributor,
and in Los Angeles, Leslie Marshall radio talk show host and also a Fox
News contributor.
Will, Bill Barr 's AP interview video caused a huge media explosion,
because this is an attorney general perceived, fairly or not, as a Trump
loyalist breaking with the president on his question of widespread election
fraud, big story?
WILL CAIN, FOX AND FRIENDS WEEKEND CO-HOST: Yeah. I think it's a big
story. It definitely is a big story. It's going to be a developing story
over the coming weeks. There's two words that come to mind for me, Howie,
when we analyze the media's reaction to this story so far. Those two words
are dismissiveness and open mindedness.
We have seen plenty of the former and very little of the latter. What I
mean is this. When you play those clips, when I see the media's reaction to
this story, they're so ready to dismiss anything coming from President
Trump. There's a hand wave. There's no evidence, they say. They're ready to
put the story behind them.
They ask us a country to move on and so little open mindedness. There is
evidence of irregularities in an election was massively different from
anyone in our history. The great question is does it add up to enough to
change the election results. And I see a lack of open mindedness. I see a
lack of curiosity. I see a lack of interest in pursuing those stories. They
revert over and over to the hand wave, Howie.
That let's do away with this story. And I think that's what the president
is talking about. There's a reason to investigate from the media, from Bill
Barr , from anyone to find out if there is enough valid evidence, credible
evidence to pursue this claim that the president has that the election
should be scrutinized and perhaps reversed.
KURTZ: Well, we will come back to the legal details. But let me ask you,
Kristen, because Bill Barr is a guy who intervened on behalf of Mike Flynn
and Roger Stone. He was accused by the press of soft peddling the Mueller
report. This is not some rogue staffer. So is it breaking through to the
public that the president is now fed up with his second straight attorney
general?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I'm not sure it's breaking
through to the public so much as this term and turmoil in this
administration and its staffing has sort of been the norm. Trump has gone
through a lot of people in a lot of different positions. Frankly, the fact
that we are less than 60 days from the swearing in of a new president means
that -- all this all talk about, well, is he going to fire Barr or not.
I mean, we are almost at the end of the Trump presidency, so a lot of this
sort of palace intrigue about whether someone will get fired or not, seems
to be separate from what I view as the most important question, which is
have we fully and properly investigated claims of irregularities. And it
seems as though, to Will's point, that in a lot of cases there are many
Americans who are frustrated with the media's approach.
Because they say, look, you lost credibility with me. I have never, in all
of my research around messaging, seen it work to tell someone, well, you're
wrong. That's not a persuasive message. A persuasive message says, hey,
there were claims of voter fraud in this town in Michigan. We investigated
them and we found that they were wrong.
In fact, all of those people you should be handling these kinds of
(Inaudible), not just saying you're wrong, let's move on.
KURTZ: The erosion of media credibility is a very serious problem. Leslie,
there have been leaks to the Washington Post and other outlets about the
president being livid and perhaps trying to talk about firing Bill Barr.
Judge Jeanine last night said that Barr -- referred to Barr and his fellow
(Inaudible). But for the rest of the press, which is (Inaudible) the
Attorney General for so long, suddenly Bill Barr is honest, suddenly Bill
Barr is a hero?
LESLIE MARSHALL, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, suddenly, Bill Barr has been
doing his job. I mean, he's the attorney general of the United States. He's
the attorney for the people. His allegiance should be to the constitution.
And throughout his tenure with the president, there have been questions,
and not just from those on my side of the aisle.
Democrats ask whether allegiance was for the president or the constitution.
When he brokered (ph) with the president on this, when he said there's
absolutely no evidence of widespread voter fraud and certainly not enough
evidence of instances of instances that would overturn any state's results
or overturn this election and change the outcome of this election.
I think a lot of people, especially on my side of the aisle thought, OK,
you were steeped in reality. You know, Will talked about stories. We are
entering the fairy tale phase here. There was not widespread voter fraud.
When you look at state by state and the recounts, Joe Biden actually gains
in some states like Wisconsin as an example. There's a time for the people
to tell to emperor, he's naked.
KURTZ: Let me move on here, and everybody keep their clothes on. So Will,
the president's Facebook video, reading from the Washington Post lead,
escalating his attack on democracy from within the White House, President
Trump distributed an astonishing 46 minute video rant there were baseless
allegations of voter fraud and outright falsehoods. What do you make of the
tone of that kind of straight news story?
CAIN: Well, I don't think that's straight news. I want you to listen, and
I'm not coming at Leslie particularly here. But you used a very definitive
word. You said there is no evidence of widespread fraud. Leslie, you spoke
definitively, with a conclusion. What I would say is that conclusion is
unearned if there's a process going on.
Let's tie this in to what Kristen said. She said many people are skeptical
of the press, and they raised eyebrows by way to this election. Chris had
the exact numbers, it's something like 77 percent of Republicans and a good
30 percent of Democrats are skeptical that this election was on the up and
up. What does that mean?
It doesn't mean stolen election. It also doesn't mean you can dismissively
conclude it was not. And back to the press, the ones telling us to
dismissively conclude it was not, to wave their hands at this. They have
burned all credibility, Howie, because of the lack of consistency. It was
four years ago that we were told the presidency was illegitimate.
It was four years that we had a Russia collusion hoax for years. That was
an investigation that undercut the legitimacy of a president. And now all
of a sudden within a matter of weeks, no, no, no, this should be over. We
are done. Don't pursue the process. There are plenty of conclusions to
draw.
KURTZ: Let me give Leslie a chance to respond. Let me first say that Trump
lawyers believe, based on my reporting, that one of the reasons for their
the legal setbacks or the procedural hurdles, such as federal judges not
wanting to interfere with state laws. And they may take this battle past
the Electoral College vote on December 14.
But on Friday alone, there were legal setbacks for the president's campaign
in six key battleground states, judges using phrases like flimsy
foundation, dangerous. Let me just play for you, Leslie, Rudy Giuliani, the
president's lead lawyer on what he had to say on Hannity.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNKNOWN: The simple fact is we don't need courts. the United States
constitution gives sole power to the state legislature to decide
presidential elections.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): We don't need the courts, Leslie.
MARSHALL: Well, you know, to Will's point, you know, Will said, oh, there
is, you know, let the evidence play out. How many recounts does the state
have to do? How many state attorney generals and governors or even
Republicans, you know, have to say, OK, I've certified the election result
and Joe Biden is the president-elect.
How many cases does the Trump administration have to lose? My count is 41
out of 42 that have been put forth. There is a point where you say, OK, the
results are accurate. Now, trust the media. And now, you're not going to
trust the courts. You're not going to trust every single person in the
electoral process in every single state, whether it's blue like California
or red like Georgia.
There is a point where at the end of the day where you have to say, OK, I
have lost this. It is time to move on and let the country move forward,
because we are in a pandemic, and constantly dragging the American people
into this political fantasy at this point, if you will, is unhealthy on so
many levels for this nation.
KURTZ: Well, I think a lot of Trump supporters do trust Kellyanne Conway,
the long-time White House counselor until just a few weeks ago. Here is
what she said had to say about the political situation in a podcast
interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNKNOWN: If you look at the vote totals in the Electoral College tally, it
looks like Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will prevail.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): But Kristen, the president says no way in that Facebook
video. He's still talking about massive vote dumps and rigged voting
machines and dead people voting and all that, so where does that leave the
press?
ANDERSON: In order for Trump to win this election, he needs to rack up
victories in court, and he's not doing so. Kellyanne's response comes from
the reality of the fact that Trump's legal team has failed to effectively
prosecute the case. They have at various points in time mislabeled within
lawsuits, whether they are talking about the state of Georgia or Wisconsin.
They have named people as plaintiffs who did not (Inaudible). They have
referenced data from towns in Minnesota when trying to make the case about
voter fraud in Michigan. His legal team has failed him, and that's why they
are getting laughed out of court. And that's why the reality that Kellyanne
talks about in that clip you just played is the reality.
If you're a Trump supporter and you believe there was fraud in this
election, you should be furious at the legal team that has let the
president's case down so dramatically in so many of these instances.
KURTZ: And that's why Rudy Giuliani in that clip is talking about state
legislators, because that would be a different group, but it's very tough
to convince even Republican legislators to do this. Will, Sean Hannity
suggested the other day that Donald Trump pardon himself and his family.
The New York Times reports that the president has had some preliminary
discussion with Rudy Giuliani about a possible pardon, although he hasn't
been charged with anything.
Many in the media say, well, they wouldn't even be talking about this if
they weren't worried about some criminal liability, fair or unfair?
CAIN: Well, I don't know what they would be pardoning themselves for at
this point. So until there's a crime and until there's a charge, I don't
know why we move ahead to some kind of sentencing phase or pardoning phase.
I just want to say this quickly if, I might, Howie. I agree with something
Leslie said. There's a point at which we move on, the president's legal
team, as Kristen pointed, does to have to win.
They do have to make their case as some point. And as you pointed out, and
I tried to make this point as well this week in on Fox and Friends. They
seem to be moving their case into the court of public opinion when it comes
to state legislators, where they will find a lower burden of proof. But
make no mistake. You still have to make your case.
My point is that will not be deemed or not be concluded by the media. It
will not be the media that tells us when that case is over, when that
process has concluded.
KURTZ: A rare moment of agreement there. And I agree with you, it is a
court of public opinion, and it's not up to the media. Ahead, Martha
MacCallum on covering tonight's Georgia Senate debate tonight, and Mike
Huckabee also standing by. But when we come back, a CNBC debate over COVID
and business lockdowns goes viral.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: With the COVID numbers turning grim, 2,600 to 2,800 daily deaths,
on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, the media covering a fierce debate over
locking down businesses, and things got pretty heated between CNBC's Rick
Santelli and Andrew Ross Sorkin.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNKNOWN: The difference between a big-box retailer --
UNKNOWN: Hold on.
UNKNOWN: The difference between a big-box retailer and a restaurant, or
frankly even a church are so different it's unbelievable.
UNKNOWN: Not in an area where there's a lot of restaurants that have
fought back and they don't have any problems.
UNKNOWN: OK, you don't have to believe it. But let me just say this,
you're doing a disservice to the viewer because the viewers need to
understand it --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: You're doing a disservice to the viewer, you are.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): Will Cain, Rick Santelli is a conservative whose on air
rant helped launch the tea party. Andrew Sorkin is more liberal New York
Times business columnist. So settle this, who is doing a disservice to
voters?
CAIN: Well, I mean, I take no pleasure in this, nor do I find this
anything personal, but Andrew Ross Sorkin is doing a disservice to the
viewers, because he is condescendingly, smugly, telling us exactly how it
is and not backing it up. I don't understand how it is a big box retailer
so clearly different than a church or small business.
Why is it that a big box retailer should be open while small businesses
shut down. And I'm not going to be satisfied with a simple intonation of
it's science. I don't understand how is that science, and you repeating it
over and over isn't an explanation, it's just you looking down your nose at
us. You know, that's the thing, Howie, that I really get fired up about.
I've been in the media for quite some time. I've been in several
institutions, and it is rife with condescension. It is rife with smugness
and elitism towards people out there across the country. And I think it's
embodied in that clip right there, really sitting there going, you know,
corporations. They are the ones that can do this right.
But you at home, you small businesses, follow the science. You must shut
down. It's just absolutely condescending. And I don't think it's
appropriate anymore when you're speaking from a big pulpit.
KURTZ: On that point, condescension is a big reason why a lot of people
really distrust or resent the media. Kristen Soltis Anderson, does public
opinion tend to be reduced to an either or situation when you talk about
big box retailers versus schools, versus churches, versus local
restaurants, or do the media tend to reduce these questions through black
and white because it makes for better television?
ANDERSON: What I see in public opinion is that, by in large, Americans
across the political spectrum want to make smart personal choices for
themselves. The problem is that a lot of the experts that they have been
hearing from over the last year, there have been many mixed messages,
whether early in the pandemic being told don't wear masks.
To then being told no, no, wear masks or being told don't congregate with
lots of people, but then suddenly public health experts waving that away
during the protests over the summer. The reality is that the virus doesn't
care your cause, all it cares how close are you in proximity so you can be
a host for the virus.
And I think that lack of credibility paired with many politicians who have
been caught lecturing their city, don't get together, don't be with your
family for Thanksgiving, while traveling to Cabo, closing down restaurants
that have invested a lot in trying to create outdoor dining. They -- not
even outdoor dining anymore when just recently they were dining at high-end
restaurants in California.
Plenty of instances of hypocrisy from many of our leaders, and that's why
people who want to do the right thing feel a little bit lost as to what
that is right now.
KURTZ: Right, and those are Democratic mayors and governors. Leslie
Marshall, most of California starting today in stay-at-home order, while
saying Los Angeles kind of where you are took the lead. Do you think the
media debate reflects the difficulty of these decisions about restrictions
and curfews and which businesses or other institutions should be able to
remain open.
MARSHALL: Absolutely. I know you guys get sick of hearing it. My husband
came home yesterday and he really -- he looked like he had been beaten up.
And he's been on ER call for seven days straight, and this is what he told
me and I, quote, "I have never seen it like this before. We are running out
of beds in the ICU. We are building tents in the parking lot, and I have
never seen so many people code in my life.
I have partners and staff who are positive. It just doesn't stop." And this
is what I'm hearing, a neighbor of mine who was an ER doctor, he said every
other day I think I have COVID. People don't understand, whether it's a
politician or the media, the science is so fluid on this, Howie, because
this is so new. Doctors are learning --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: This is why it's so challenging --
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Exactly, but the challenges in the ER, and the reason --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: I understand.
MARSHALL: It is because there are people who are not complying with social
distancing and not complying with not gathering and --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: We are all concerned about that. Let me get Will in for a final
thought for -- in 20 seconds.
CAIN: I would love to answer the question you asked Leslie, is there a tie
between politicians who are hypocritical and the media attitude towards
this. Yes, it is that elitism. It's the little people but not for me. It is
absolutely a view from a lockstep one point of view with inside most media
companies that says listen to me preach. Don't worry what I practice, the
same is politicians.
KURTZ: Yeah, hypocrisy is pretty thick. All right, thank you all, panel,
Will Cain, Leslie Marshall, and Kristen Soltis Anderson. Up next, President
Trump campaigning in Georgia yesterday with control of the Senate at stake.
Martha MacCallum is anchoring coverage of a crucial debate tonight, and
she's on deck.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: President Trump campaigned in Georgia last night for two Republican
senators needed by the GOP to keep control of the chamber, and he again
castigated the Republican governor of what he claims is sweeping fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
TRUMP: Your governor could stop it very easily if he knew what the hell he
was doing. You're angry because so many votes were stolen. It was taken
away. We can't do that. We have to actually do just the opposite.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KURTZ (on camera): Joining us now is Martha MacCallum, host The Story, who
will be anchoring tonight's Fox coverage of the debate between Senator
Kelly Loeffler Democratic challenger Raphael Warnock. Martha, as you know,
the president called Georgia Governor Brian Kemp. Yesterday he called him a
hapless in recent days, asked him to convene a special session to state
legislature to appoint pro-Trump electors to the Electoral College.
He was turned down. A lot of pundits say this could depress turnout in
those January 5th runoffs. How does the president's intervention here in
his speech last night scramble the coverage of these two Senate races?
MARTHA MACCALLUM, THE STORY ANCHOR: Well, he has to walk a very fine line.
Obviously, it's a huge priority for him to speak to all of those Trump
voters who very sincerely feel that something was not quite right about the
presidential election across the country. But at the same time, he wants to
preserve his legacy.
We have -- just an extraordinarily dramatic finish to what has been a
blockbuster year of incredible stories one after the other, Howie. And it
all is sort of the coda here that's going to happen on January 5th Two
Senate seats, which are both the runoffs in Georgia which will decide the
balance of the Senate.
So I think the president is trying to sort of compartmentalize his anger
over what he sees as serious indications of fraud in the large election
across the country, and still make sure that people turn out to vote in
this Georgia election, which is really going to make or break his legacy.
If you go through the issues of court packing or making D.C. and Puerto
Rico states.
Filibuster -- ending the filibuster, all of the things that could happen if
you got Democrats in the White House and the House and the Senate. The
stakes really could not be higher here, Howie.
KURTZ: Yeah, well, you anchored the coverage tonight of this debate
between the appointed Senator Kelly Loeffler and her Democrat challenger,
Warnock,7:00 Eastern. Do you think that would be major issue? Martha: yeah,
I think that Loeffler support for Trump's claim that there widespread fraud
in Georgia, which Biden was certified to have won with 12,000 votes will be
a major issue?
MACCALLUM: Yeah. I think that, you know, her full-throated endorsement and
understanding of how all of these Trump voters are feeling in Georgia and
other places. It's going to be very significant for her. Her support among
Republicans in Georgia is at 92 percent. Warnock's support among Democrats
in Georgia is at 97 percent.
This is going to be all about turnout and the same issues that you had in
the national election with an absolutely unprecedented huge mail-in vote,
Howie, are going to be deciding factors in this election. So the turnout
question is absolutely huge, and she's got to get those voters who are
thinking of sitting on their hands.
Because they are angry about what happened on November third to get off
their hands and get out and vote for her side if she wants to win.
KURTZ: Yeah, special elections are always about turnout. Now, you think
two Republicans would win easily in Georgia. But there was one recent poll
from an Atlanta station that gave Warnock a seven-point lead over Kelly
Loeffler, the other race which is of course Democratic Jon Ossoff
challenging Senator David Perdue, kind of two percent margin of error. My
question is with all of the media coverage which will intensify, has this
become a national election in effect in Georgia?
MACCALLUM: Absolutely, because it does have ramifications for everybody
across the country. The control of the Senate is going to be a deciding
factor in the future of the country and there's nothing -- no lost in terms
of the stakes of this when you see the kind of intense attention that it's
getting on both sides here.
You've got Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock who want to take those Senate
seats and you've got David Perdue who holds his seat and Kelly Loeffler who
was appointed to her seat. Watch for Warnock to bring that up tonight as
one of his point that he makes, that she was appointed --
KURTZ: Right.
MACCALLUM: -- and not elected to that seat. He hopes to, you know, sort of
--
KURTZ: Sure.
MACCALLUM: -- bring some more attention to that. But the stakes are huge
for the entire country. It becomes a microcosm of everybody's frustrations
and elations over what happened in the presidential election for sure.
KURTZ: Absolutely. Let me sneak in a break here. More with Martha
MacCallum in just a moment as we look at the COVID surge and a revealing
interview with former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): There was a telling moment in Martha MacCallum's
interview with former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale, who said he had
advised Trump to talk less about reopening the economy and more about the
victims of COVID-19.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD PARSCALE, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think a young family with
young child, who were scared to take them back to school, wanted to see an
empathetic president and an empathetic Republican Party. People are scared.
And I think if he would have been publicly empathetic, he would have won by
a landslide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): And we are back with Martha MacCallum, who would be
anchoring the coverage of tonight's Georgia Senate debate at 7:00 Eastern.
There were a lot of fascinating moments in this interview, Martha, as he
talked about being fired, as Parscale talked about the 911 call, his wife
called the police, you know, all -- lot of stuff you covered.
But I was really struck by Parscale saying he privately advised the
president to talk more about the COVID-19 victims and their families. Did
that resonate with you?
MACCALLUM: Well, it did. It sort of substantiated the -- what we had heard
before, which was that there's a lot of debate within the campaign about
how to handle COVID and there was a lot of pressure around that time.
Remember the Tulsa, Oklahoma rally and inner debate over whether or not it
made sense to hold these huge rallies. The president obviously feeds off of
those rallies. He felt that it was really important to get out there and do
that. Brad Parscale clearly stated in this interview that he felt that
there wasn't enough focus on empathy.
He talked about, you know, I found myself at restaurants and the waitresses
would be sort of pulling away from the table or you go places and people
were starting to just walk farther the party, and I could sense that they
were afraid, that they were scared.
He felt that there wasn't enough attention to that underlying fear across
the country, especially with suburban families, which he mentioned in the
sound bite, and also seniors which eroded a bit in their support for the
president, as well.
KURTZ: Right. So right now, we have the CDC chief, Robert Redfield, saying
there could be as many as 450,000 deaths in America by February. Right now,
the toll is over 280,000. He calls this the most difficult time in public
health history of the company. We got a hundred thousand people
hospitalized in straining facilities.
There has been a lot more meaty coverage, but is the intensity of it
matching the magnitude of this crisis, because I have the sense that, you
know, this is a story that's been around a long time, people are tired of
it, it's kind of depressing, and the Trump election battle is consuming
some of the media oxygen?
MACCALLUM: Well, it's very true. I mean, through the whole course of the
election, you had networks that, you know, ran the numbers of cases and
hospitalizations pretty much on the side of the screen throughout the
entire thing.
I think it's impossible to underrate the importance of the pandemic in this
election and whether or not any president who had to endure and lead the
country during something that is so enormous would be able to overcome the
challenge of how heavy it was on people's hearts and on their pocketbooks
and everything else.
It's a huge -- you know, we are talking about the Time's Person of the Year
and what it should be. And I said it should be the virus because the old
measure for the Time's Person of the Year used to be the biggest impact,
negative or positive, of that year. I think you cannot understate how
significant it is. But yes, I think there is fatigue, I think you're seeing
a little bit of wearing off --
KURTZ: Yeah.
MACCALLUM: -- of the obsessive coverage after the election, which I think
is very interesting to note. And I also think that Joe Biden, if he is
inaugurated on January 20th, is going to benefit greatly from a huge
momentum shift that you're going to see once these vaccines start kicking
into gear, Howie.
KURTZ: Right, but a lot of challenges in distributing the vaccines. So
this whole list of Democrats who told their constituents, stay home, don't
go away for Thanksgiving, don't do large gatherings --
MACCALLUM: Mm-hmm.
KURTZ: -- and then did the opposite, these include California Governor
Gavin Newsom, San Francisco Mayor London Breed, Denver Mayor Michael
Hancock, and there was Steve Adler, the mayor of Austin, who went off to
Cabo, Andrew Cuomo at least cancelled his family Thanksgiving plans. Do you
think this kind of democratic don't do it, I do, do what I say deserve more
coverage?
MACCALLUM: Absolutely. I mean, we've certainly covered it. I don't think
you're seeing it in many other places, but the hypocrisy is stunning on
this, Howie.
It is one thing if you're a person who is in favor of opening up
businesses, getting people back out there, and then doing the same
yourself. But if you are going to lock down, you are going to say stay at
home for the next three weeks, you are going to try to keep the hospitals
from, you know, from that curve becoming something that's onerous and
dangerous in these hospitals, you better stand by what you're recommending
other people and other businesses to do.
And I just think about all of the migration that we are seeing from
California to places like Texas and Nashville for businesses and people who
want to have, you know, more freedom, want to make their own choices on
these issues, and I think there's a huge backlash on this. I don't think
you can underestimate the anger that people feel when they watch the
hypocrisy coming from some of these politicians, Howie.
KURTZ: Yeah, I think that's a great point, and I think there's also a lot
of pressure on us in the media to escalate and to match. I mean, this is
just -- you know, you can go to any state, any city, this is no longer a
problem just in certain regions, and I think there is a great challenge
here for us dealing this, especially as we head into this winter and before
the vaccine is widely available.
Martha MacCallum, great to see you. Thanks so much --
MACCALLUM: You bet.
KURTZ: -- for coming on this Sunday.
MACCALLUM: Good to see you, Howie. See you tonight.
KURTZ: And be sure to watch our special coverage with Martha starting
tonight at 6:45 p.m. Eastern. You can also catch her on "The Story,"
weekdays at 7:00 Eastern.
After the break, a look at the press, the president, COVID, the election,
and more. Mike Huckabee joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Joining us now from Florida is Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas
governor and presidential candidate, as well as a Fox News contributor.
Governor, President Trump is still going full blast about the stolen
election, as he puts it. The Wall Street Journal's conservative editorial
page says this: Bill Barr has no reason to join the coverup and Trump
should focus on preserving his legacy rather than diminishing it by
alleging fraud he can't prove.
Is the press right that so far, at least the president's legal team has
failed to prove widespread election fraud?
MIKE HUCKABEE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR, FORMER
PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, Howard, I think people are missing the
point that there are hundreds of affidavits of people who have given sworn
testimony of what they've seen. We've seen video, we have eyewitnesses.
When people say they can't prove it, that's what court is for. Court is
where you prove it. But you have allegations that are sworn. These are
people that are willing to go to prison if somebody proves them to be wrong
and the press keeps acting like, well, there's no evidence, as if it's just
being made up out of thin air, it isn't.
There are legitimate complaints and genuine concerns about how things were
handled, the numbers. And I don't know why everybody is so fearful of just
pulling the covers back, turning on the lights, and watching the rats and
roaches run and will see what is really down there.
KURTZ: Interesting analogy. All right, you were a Republican governor for
a decade. So you have a president attacking the Republican governor of
Georgia, Brian Kemp, he did it last night in the visit to the state, the
Republican governor of Arizona, Doug Ducey, for saying that their states'
votes were fair and certifying a Biden win in those states.
Aren't they in a very difficult position between following a state law and
backing up their election officials and having to necessarily criticize the
president of their own party?
HUCKABEE: Well, I think it's a matter of the president looking at what his
legal team is giving him. Certainly I expect governors of the states to
defend their processes up to a point, but when there is some very shady
evidence that is being presented, all I think they ought to do is hit the
pause button and say let's look into it.
But the person who really ought to be calling for a full-scale
investigation is Joe Biden. He should see what happens when a president is
questioned for his legitimacy for four solid years. That's what's happened
to Donald Trump, Russia, you know, Russia did it and he was in collusion,
proved he wasn't. But for four years, he's been hounded by, even impeached
over it.
If that's what Joe Biden wants, it may be what Joe Biden gets, four years
of people saying, ah, there are really clouds and questions about the
legitimacy of his presidency. And the Democrats better not say anything
about that if the Republicans whine for the simple reason that they were
the ones who created the template for how to do that.
KURTZ (on camera): All right. Let me move on to COVID. I think President
Trump deserves some credit for the lightening development of the Pfizer and
Moderna vaccines. We hope that they'll be able to ramp up production on
those vaccines. But the president is also getting a lot of press criticism,
as you know, for not talking more about the pandemic. Here is MSNBC's Mika
Brzezinski.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, MSNBC ANCHOR: We know he's going to try and have his own
little party during the inauguration because he's a big baby. But he's
killing people. The part that's shocking is that day by day by day, his
leadership is leading to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): Your response, governor?
HUCKABEE: That is so outrageous. I mean, to actually accuse the president
of the United States of killing people, I mean, the press has lost its
mind, they have long lost their credibility, and that what you just played
is a great example of why half of America and maybe more than half of
America honestly believe that the disease has more credibility than the
press does.
It's a shame, really, because we need a good, solid, free, and fair press.
We don't have one. We have what you just played. And the truth is this
president stopped people coming into the country even before most of the
health experts thought it was important and necessary.
He took a position very different than Nancy Pelosi, who said come to
Chinatown, and he did ramp up Operation Warp Speed, which in fact has saved
lots of lives, not killed people. And I just resent the --
KURTZ: All right.
HUCKABEE: -- harsh tone and the ridiculous rhetoric of that.
KURTZ: Right. Mika Brzezinski is a commentator, not a working reporter.
But let me ask you finally, how you see the press covering Joe Biden during
this period, and will you and other conservative commentators be willing to
give him a chance in the face of this pandemic and the damage that it's
done to the economy?
HUCKABEE: Well, sure, I mean, I love the country more than I love a party
or a personality, and I want the country to do well. But I'm going to tell
you something. I think everybody is going to want to hold Joe Biden to the
same standard to which Donald Trump has been held. The press won't do it.
They sure won't do it.
The toughest questions they ask him are, how are you feeling today, is your
foot better, you're not wearing the boot, is that going to be all right? I
mean, my gosh, go back and look at the kind of press questions that Donald
Trump got between the election of 2016 and the inauguration.
KURTZ: Yeah.
HUCKABEE: And it was brutal. They never let up. I just --
KURTZ: Yeah.
HUCKABEE: -- like to see some responsible reporting.
KURTZ: We got to go. Everybody should be held to the same standard. Mike
Huckabee, thanks for joining us. Still to come, the coverage of Joe Biden's
cabinet picks and the next White House press secretary. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ (on camera): Joining us now from New York to talk about the coverage
of Joe Biden is Jessica Tarlov of Bustle, a Fox News contributor. Let us go
to a Friday press briefing with Biden and take a look at one of the
questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Looking at attorney general
and the Department of Defense, would you commit to nominating a person of
color for those positions?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I promise you, it will be
the single most diverse cabinet based on race, color, based on gender
that's ever existed in the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ (on camera): So CNN's Arlette Saenz was basically almost demanding
that Biden to point people of color to those two specific jobs. Is the
press going to be pushing a liberal agenda with Joe Biden?
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I am not sure that appointing
a person of color means that it is liberal agenda. I think the press will
be pushing for accountability and diversity, which were things that Joe
Biden pledge while he was running both in the primary and then once he won
the nomination for the general election.
It's hugely important, his coalition was very dependent upon minority
voters both Latinos and black voters, and he's made promises to those
communities. So I hope he continue to push. He already has two high-profile
positions, Cecilia Rouse and Linda Thomas-Greenfield, both cabinet
positions and black women. But there are many more spots to fill.
KURTZ: Yeah. Jake Tapper did ask some challenging questions, including
whether any of his relatives would have jobs that conflict with the
presidency. Look, there has been a lot of --
TARLOV: Right.
KURTZ: -- media focus on Neera Tanden, the pick for OMB, and she is
getting it from both sides in terms of -- Bernie supporters don't like her.
Republicans don't like her. She has had a lot of caustic tweets. Do you
think the media flap over Neera Tanden is justified?
TARLOV: I'm not sure that I would call it a media flap. I think that all
nominees should be investigated. But everything that I'm hearing about her,
at least on the right, is about mean tweets. which we know is ridiculous
considering President Trump's tweets which is are, you know, exponentially
more mean than Neera Tanden.
And from the left, actually the Bernie Sanders folks are relieved that it
wasn't Bruce Reed, who was Biden's chief of staff, who got appointed to
that position because he's much more in favor of austerity, obviously,
which they are not in favor of going forward.
So everyone should be investigated and I think that Neera Tandem welcomes
it. She put out a video this week that I think shows that she is ready to
be looked into and to defend herself as a good nominee for OMB.
KURTZ: So Biden's new press secretary is Jen Psaki. She is a former CNN
contributor who had been the spokeswoman for the Obama State Department, as
well as White House communication's director. What message does this send
that Biden picked her?
TARLOV: It sends a message that he picked someone who is eminently
qualified and knows how to be a good communicator, and someone that he
trusts and understand his agenda.
You know, people talk about the Obama administration, but it was the Obama-
Biden administration. He had the second most important job in the United
States of America and had a very good and complete relationship with Jen
Psaki and knew her quite well, obviously. So it makes sense to me.
And I think, you know, Kayleigh McEnany is up there and she is press
secretary. She was a CNN commentator and someone who is also on our
airwaves at Fox News.
KURTZ: Yeah.
TARLOV: It makes sense to me to pick somebody with that kind of
background.
KURTZ: Well, I spent some time with Jen Psaki in an event last year. She
is not harshly partisan. In fact, she became friends with Rick Santorum
while working at CNN.
TARLOV: No.
KURTZ: So I do think -- I think it's a good pick. Biden spent an hour the
other night or the other day on the phone with New York Times columnist Tom
Friedman, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist. Does that signal this is going
to be a president who cares about newspapers and elites' opinion?
TARLOV: I hope so. I think that it indicates that he cares about all
opinions because one of the focal points of this conversation with Tom
Friedman was reaching out to rural voters.
Joe Biden did a ton of local press throughout the election, some of
actually has worst quotes, came from talking to reporters in rural
Wisconsin, for instance, when he was pushed the hardest, I would say, about
issues about the divide within the Democratic Party and whether he was a
socialist, et cetera.
I think that Joe Biden will do press with everybody. He ran a coalition
campaign where he brought together voters --
KURTZ: Right.
TARLOV: -- who hadn't voted for Democrats in the past. So that's what I
see. But the interview was great and wide-ranging.
KURTZ: Right.
TARLOV: Number one priority, the stimulus for America.
KURTZ: With a liberal columnist, yeah, it was a good interview. Jessica
Tarlov, thanks so much for being here. That's it for this edition of MEDIA
BUZZ.
TARLOV: Thanks, Howie.
KURTZ: I am Howard Kurtz. We hope you will -- thank you. Hope you like our
Facebook page. My daily comments are posted there. We can continue the
conversation on Twitter.
Check out podcast, "Media Buzzmeter." You can subscribe at Apple iTunes, on
Google podcast, or on your Amazon device. A lot to talk about today. It's a
crazy period. Back here next Sunday 11:00 Eastern. We will see you then
with the latest buzz.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
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