This is a rush transcript from "Media Buzz," September 13, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is “Media Buzz.”. I'm Howard Kurtz. Ahead, we'll talk to Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the former White House press secretary. The latest Bob Woodward book, which has caused a media furor, is different than his others, as you may have heard. Enraged, he's got 18 on the record interviews with President Trump. And those about Trump's early handling of the Coronavirus starting with this February 7th conversation triggered a media eruption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: But the air, you just breathe the air, that's how it's passed. And so that's a very tricky one. That's a very delicate one. It's also more deadly than your, you know, even your strenuous flu's. So this is deadly stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: And on March 9th, as the virus was starting to explode across America, the president said this to Woodward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think, Bob, to be honest with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, I want you to be.
TRUMP: I wanted to -- I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: -- because I don't want to create a panic. I'm a cheerleader for this country. I love our country. And I don't want people to be frightened. I don't want to create panic. It's just another political hit job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the smoking gun of his negligence. It is a dereliction of duty recorded as no other presidential dereliction of duty has been, even more so than the Nixon tapes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the well-written TV drama we all wish this was. This is the episode where the president resigns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This president has betrayed you. It's just plain-out betrayal, doesn't matter if you support him or if you don't support him. He's betrayed you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would think that these so-called journalists in the media might have realized that the president wouldn't talk on the record with Bob Woodward about something he was trying to hide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Woodward dislikes Donald Trump. He's been very clear about that. Woodward works for Jeff Bezos' personal newspaper, the Washington Post, which has made defeating Donald Trump its all-consuming mission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: That was Carl Bernstein in that earlier clip. Joining us now to analyze the coverage, Guy Benson, the host of Fox's Guy Benson Radio Show, Gillian Turner, a Fox News correspondent here in Washington, and Clarence Page, columnist for the Chicago Tribune. Guy Benson, most of the mainstream media have made a flat declaration about the president's words to Bob Woodward. Take a look here at a White House news conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you lie to the American people, and why should we trust what you have to say now?
TRUMP: Terrible question and the phraseology. I didn't lie. The way you phrased that is such a disgrace. It's a disgrace to ABC television network.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Guy, is that word, lying, fact or opinion?
GUY BENSON, THE GUY BENSON SHOW HOST: I think it's more on the opinion side, although it's rooted in some fact. There was clearly a disconnect here. Look, this overall firestorm is Christmas in September for the media, right? They were able to turn away from issues that were less comfortable for them like rioting in the streets when it comes to their goal of electing Joe Biden.
And they were able to come back to this whole question of Coronavirus and relitigate March and April, which is not something I think that the Trump campaign or administration is terribly excited about doing. I think the fact you saw the president telling Bob Woodward in February that this was airborne, very transmissible, much more deadly than the flu.
And then he's tweeting about a month later with comparisons to an average flu season, you know, that is a problem for the White House and for the president. And what he says on tape, I would like to downplay it to not cause a panic. And the press secretary says the president never downplayed what was happening. That's a disconnect as well.
You can call it a lie. You can call it spin. I think it's not helpful at all to the re-election campaign, certainly of the president, although I think some of the criticism is probably also over-hyped, and people are definitely pouncing on this for their various reasons.
KURTZ: Well, I like that you stuck to the facts in your answer. Gillian Turner, we just went through you a fierce debate about the use of unnamed sources in that Atlantic article. And so in this book, there are some background interviews to be sure, classic Woodward style. But Jared Kushner speaks quite openly. And 17 of the 18 interviews with the president are taped, on the record.
So why is Woodward getting heat and getting blamed for what the president said to him?
GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the president has said unequivocally that he now believes Woodward's book is a, quote, "political hit job." It begs the question how something can be perceived as a hit job when entire transcripts on the record are released in full, accompanied by recordings. That said, Howie, you know that in my past life, I worked in the government.
At the White House, in the Bush and Obama administrations. And if I had a dollar for every policy maker who was upset with Bob Woodward about something he chose to report about them or when, I would be a very rich woman. I think it's a hallmark of really good investigative journalism.
KURTZ: Woodward has been doing this through many, many administrations, going back to Richard Nixon of course. So Clarence Page, the television obviously is now replaying again and again and again early clips of the president saying the virus is under control. It is like the flu. It will miraculously disappear. But he has also said in the past that he wanted to be a cheerleader for the country.
And he didn't want to cause a panic. So how much of these quotes to Woodward are that surprising?
CLARENCE PAGE, CHICAGO TRIBUNE SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, only surprising in regard to the stark contrast between the president telling Woodward this is a very serious issue, a very serious problem that threatens many lives in America, and then next day going out telling the TV cameras, the public, you know, this is all going to go away. I mean, President Trump doesn't do nuance well.
We know that. That's not news. So it's hard for him to play something down one day and then play it up the next and vice versa. So what we're getting here is what looks like outright lying. We've gotten that before. The Washington Post has counted up how many thousands of exaggerations. And we know he's also a salesman at heart.
And a politician who formerly was a salesman for -- as a profession, and he thinks he can persuade anybody in an interview. So that's why he wanted to talk to Woodward.
KURTZ: I think there's some truth in that. He wanted to get a better book. By the way, some news organizations pushing back on the no panic defense by noting that the president sometimes stirs up passions and other issues, for example, the campaign just put out something called Antifa alert. They'll attack your homes if Joe is elected, Joe Biden of course.
Guy Benson, let me come back to you on this. Another sound bite from the president this week, sort of a mounting a defense, and it taps into something that media critics have been hurling at Woodward, which is how could you sit on this explosive information and save it for a book. Here's the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Certainly, if he thought that was a bad statement, he would have reported it, because he thinks that, you know, you don't want to have anybody that is going to suffer medically because of some fact. And he didn't report it because he didn't think it was bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Legitimate criticism of Woodward and a legitimate defense for the president?
BENSON: Well, I think it depends on what the situation was or the agreement was for the terms of these conversations. My understanding is how Woodward often works with these things is he grants his subjects, in this case the president, all sorts of access. And the access flows obviously both ways. But the agreement is, well, we're going to embargo some of this stuff for a while so you can speak candidly to me now. I'm not going to report it right now for political reasons.
It's not going to hurt you. But it's going to come out in the book. I don't know exactly what the timeline was of this. I'm sort of shocked that Trump would agree to any sort of embargo being lifted before the election, unless he thought this book was going to help him, which is what Woodward books typically don't do for politicians involved. So I think that I need more information.
KURTZ: OK. Let me move on. Let's -- we're a little short on time, so let's try to be tight in our responses. Look, Gillian, Woodward said there was no absolute embargo but there was an explicit understanding. He told the Washington Post he need more time both to put the president's comments in context and make sure that they were accurate.
So for example, he found out later that -- or days earlier before that February 7th conversation. National security officials had gone to the president and said this is the most serious crisis you'll face in your presidency. So that was Woodward's argument for why he held these things for the book.
TURNER: There is always the very important element of context, which sometimes we lose when we look at these headlines sort of a snapshot today, right now. Bob Woodward didn't necessarily know in January or in March what we know today, because scientists at the CDC on the president's Coronavirus task force themselves didn't have a clear picture of the virus at that time.
So it's never OK for an American president to lie to the American people about anything. I'm not saying that's what President Trump did here. That's for others to decide. But what I will say is that everybody agrees that the messaging coming from the administration was not clear at that time. In many respects, it's still muddled today.
So the idea that President Trump was presenting one very clear picture to Bob Woodward behind the scenes, and then one very clear picture to the American people writ at large and they directly contradicted one another is an exaggeration.
KURTZ: Well, having worked with Bob Woodward years ago. And as the author six books myself, I can tell you that President Trump wouldn't have said these things to Woodward if he thought it was going in the paper the next day, the next week. Officials tend to be more candid when it's a longer term project, whether you have a strict understanding or not, that's just a fact of life.
But let me ask you, Clarence, because as long as I have followed Woodward's career, and as long as I have known him, he has taken a just the facts approach to these books from Nixon to Obama. I can remember him telling me my writing style is fact A, fact B, fact C. In this book, he flatly comes out and says Trump is the wrong man for the job.
Doesn't that open him up to charges that two months before the election, he's become part of the resistance?
PAGE: Look, the idea of a journalist having an opinion in a book that is partly interpreted, it's hardly a scandal. And also, Howard, you know very well, in past election campaigns, Newsweek in particular, had -- has covered campaigns from the inside with the promise of they're not going to reveal anything until after election day. And Newsweek is not alone with that.
I think what Bob Woodward was doing here, he wanted to -- he told President Trump and the Washington Post has written about this too, what Woodward's deal was. There was no written agreement, simply said that it was going to hold off on reporting anything until after the book came out. And that was something that I think caused President Trump to be more candid than perhaps he would have if he had thought about it in more detail. But it wasn't --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Let me bring Guy back. Bob Woodward is 77 years old. He may have just been saying, look, I have done all these interviews and I'm entitled to give my opinion. But it does -- that allows the president's supporters to agree with him, that the book ultimately is a political hit job.
BENSON: Yeah. I mean, that definitely makes it easier. Rather than doing fact A, fact B, fact C. He's saying in conclusion, in my opinion, here's my electoral judgement about whether this president deserves the job. And then you start to -- to my previous answer, say OK, maybe there were embargoes, what was actually going on.
If Woodward is now basically joining the resistance in his own mind, holding off on some of this information and detonating it sort of as a September surprise. Of course, the president -- this is self inflicted for him in some ways, certainly. But the timing of it and the withholding of the information if he really thought lives were at stake back then. I think that is a legitimate and fair thing to raise.
KURTZ: All right. Look, it is largely a book of reporting. And by the way, the president tweeted rapidly fading Bob Woodward and his boring book, but later said he hasn't read the book. He doesn't know if it's good or bad. Before we go, Gillian, New York Times and Washington Post confirming today a story in Politico that political appointees at HHS have pressured the CDC to either delay, change, or in some cases kill Coronavirus reports that are given to other health experts throughout the government.
And one e-mail accused the CDC scientists of trying to hurt the president with hit pieces. HHS' spokesman says, well, this happened but it was just scientific disagreements, excuse me. Does this sort of story break through?
TURNER: The administration is trying to claim that they hired on their own sort of contractor scientists, a guy somewhere in Canada who is advising some of Trump administration's political officials and that scientists was haggling with CDC scientists. The problem is you're not supposed to do that, because the reality is -- I'm probably in the minorities now today of journalists who believe that there is some information out there that transcends politics.
And that it's much more important than politics. That's national security information. And that's public health information. So the idea that political folks were trying to, in any way, interfere with the science here should be very troubling.
KURTZ: All right. Well, that's the debate. Ahead, Sarah Huckabee Sanders will be here. But when we come back, the media reaction to the president's comments on race relations and his shot at the nation's military leaders.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: The media are seizing on another part of the Bob Woodward tapes when he asked the president about both of them coming from the same generation and how that affected their view you of race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As it put me. And I think lots of white privileged people in a cave, and that we have to work our way out of it to understand the anger and the pain, particularly black people feel in this country. Do you --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: No, you really drank the Kool-Aid, didn't you? Just listen to you, wow. No, I don't feel that at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Clarence Page, what do you make of Bob Woodward asking about white privilege and President Trump's response?
PAGE: Well, I'm glad Bob asked it. It's a legitimate question. And whether President Trump likes it or not, it's a defining issue of his presidency, that he has not brought the races together as much as he's helped put them further apart. But his answer about denying that white privilege exists, I'm not going to get into an argument about whether it does or not.
I'm of the same age of these two guys. And I can remember Jim Crowe's segregation and the impact it continues to have on our society. What's important here is President Trump is speaking to and for a large portion of his base that believes white privilege is a myth. I don't have it. My family came over here from Europe on a boat and we worked our way up.
You know, forget all of the institutionalized discrimination of labor unions, et cetera, housing, et cetera, that black folks have been through. And so the real question is does the president try to bring people together? Ronald Reagan did a better job of that.
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Let me get (Inaudible) in. Guy Benson, Woodward went on to ask -- and this has been less quoted by the media, whether there's systemic racism in America. And the president said I think there is everywhere, probably less so here than in other places.
BENSON: Yeah, which is an interesting answer from Trump given the previous statement that he made about white privilege. And we can get into sort of the some of the parsing about what is existing racism versus systemic racism on white privilege, for example. I think it's completely fair for someone who looks like me to recognize that white people have been in a position of privilege throughout this nation's history.
And that's something to keep in mind when you're interacting with other people. But that's not necessarily cause for all sorts of self flagellation or this notion that white people -- their opinions count less now, or it's time for us to shut up. I think that white privilege has become very charged to mean something other than, I think, the very plain meaning in some cases, which is perhaps what President Trump was getting at in sort of his rejection of Woodward bringing it up.
KURTZ: All right. Gillian, let's turn to something President Trump said this week. This is after the controversy over the Atlantic article, the unnamed sources on his view of soldiers. Some of that partially confirmed by Fox's Jennifer Griffin, here's what he had to say -- and by the way, strongly denied by the president and many White House officials. Here's what he had to say about the military. Roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm not saying the military is in love with me. The soldiers are. The top people in the Pentagon probably aren't because they want to do nothing but fight wars so that all of those wonderful companies that make the bombs and make the planes and make everything else stay happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: As you said, you've worked for the National Security Council in two administrations. How unusual is it for a president to be scolding the nation's top military leaders?
TURNER: Well, President Trump would know about the revolving door that exists between the top levels of leadership at the Pentagon and the private sector, military industrial complex. His own secretary of defense was previously a vice president with Raytheon. So he does know about this issue. I think it's highly unusual, statistically speaking, for a president to that brazenly sort of accuse or imply that his top generals have some kind of association with the for-profit military industrial complex.
He's getting a lot of flak for that. But in a sense, it's unsurprising that he said this. Because if you've been following him throughout his presidency, he's always tried to ally himself with the guys in the trenches, right, the frontline infantrymen or who he receives to be those folks. He wants to be an ally --
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: I got to -- OK, Guy, I have 20 seconds. Are journalists right in saying this is another institution, not just the military, but the media, law enforcement, the courts and so forth that President Trump openly challenges?
BENSON: Well, President Trump openly challenges absolutely anyone who he feels is challenging him or an obstacle to something that he wants to accomplish. How he goes about those challenges varies. And you can criticize some of them and support others. But to Gillian's point, it's not terribly shocking because he ran as president.
Look, some of what he said I don't agree with, but he ran as president saying we fight too many wars that are stupid. Let's try to reduce those engagements. And frankly, that is exactly what he has done for the last four years.
KURTZ: Right. And that's a popular position. All right, Guy Benson, Clarence Page, Gillian Turner, thanks so much for joining us. Ahead, the NFL season kicks off with protests. But up next, liberal allies embracing Michael Cohen as he pedals his book and what CNN president Jeff Zucker privately told him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Many in the mainstream media used to denigrate Michael Cohen as Donald Trump's fixer, kind of a sleazy New York figure who did Trump's dirty work and sometimes yelled at reporters. Well, now they love the guy. The convicted felon admits in the book, Disloyal, take he did some terrible things. The White House says he's trying to profit from lies. But as Cohen has made the TV rounds, he's being treated as a star witness. Rachel Maddow got her second highest rating ever from their interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The power that he now has has gone to his head. He wants to be an autocrat. He wants to be the president of this country for life. He wants to be just like Putin, just like Kim Jong-un.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But while a couple hosts challenged Cohen's credibility, others just rationalized it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If people don't want to believe Michael Cohen, the problem with saying that you doubt him is that he was Trump's bad guy. And who else would know the dirt Donald Trump was doing than the guy who held the shovel for all of those years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Turns out Michael Cohen also secretly taped conversations with CNN president, Jeff Zucker, who is drawing some media flak for his friendly comments about candidate Trump back in 2016. On the tapes, some of which were aired by Fox's Tucker Carlson, Cohen says he didn't leak them. They were joking that Ted Cruz would call Trump a con man in an upcoming CNN debate.
Zucker crossed the line by offering advice. You know what you should do. Whoever is around him today should just be calling him a con man all day so he's used to it. So when he hears it from Rubio, it doesn't matter. Hey, con man. Hey, con man. Hey, con man. Hey, con man. Hey, con man. Hey, con man. Zucker who helped Trump create the Apprentice back when he ran NBC was wary of contacting him directly.
As fond as I am of the boss, he also has a tendency, like, you know, if I call him or I e-mail him, he is then capable of going out at his next rally and saying that we just talked. And I can't have that, if you know what I'm saying. I have all these proposals for him like I want to do a weekly show with him and all this stuff.
Talking about a weekly show with a presidential candidate? CNN which did not respond to a request for comment is about roughly a zillion times more negative toward Trump than in those early days. Next on “Media Buzz,” Sarah Huckabee Sanders on her former boss fighting the press and her own battles as White House press secretary. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Joining us now from Little Rock, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the former White House press secretary, Fox News and author of the new book, "Speaking for Myself: Faith, Freedom, and the Fight of Our Lives Inside the Trump White House." Welcome.
As you know, Sarah, the Bob Woodward's book has tapes of President Trump talking about how he knew the coronavirus was a grave threat early on but that he had downplayed it. We just got the first Woodward interview on this book airing tonight on "60 Minutes" in which he challenges the president's approach. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB WOODWARD, JOURNALIST: And Trump thought, oh, well, they'll panic when there's a crisis. When the president particularly knows something, it's time to tell the public in some form. He failed.
SCOTT PELLEY, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: You write in the book that the president's handling of the virus reflects his instincts, habits, and style. What are those?
WOODWARD: Denial, making up his own facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Sarah, your thoughts on Woodward's response?
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think that one of the opinions certainly that the Democrats and the media have leaned aggressively on since this virus started was Dr. Fauci, and he has come out since Woodward's excerpts were first released saying he thought that the president had listened to him and followed the advice. I wonder why the media is not leaning on Dr. Fauci's statement anymore.
Look at what the president did very quickly. He first talked about the virus in his State of the Union Address back in January. It was February and Democrats were still attacking the president. Nancy Pelosi was wondering around Chinatown telling people not to worry. John Biden was saying not to panic.
The president was actually enacting travel restrictions from China, probably saving thousands if not millions, acting early, taking that decisive action. I don't think it's out of the ordinary that a president wouldn't want everyone to panic. One of the big things the president has tried to find a good balance on was protecting lives and protecting livelihoods. Right now, we have --
KURTZ: Yeah.
SANDERS: Joe Biden saying he will shut it all down again, which will be absolutely devastating and dangerous for small businesses --
KURTZ: All right. First of all --
SANDERS: -- and companies across the country.
KURTZ: First of all, just to qualify, Biden said he would potentially order another lockdown if the science indicated it. But I want to get your thought on something that happened this week with your successor, Kayleigh McEnany, who is being questioned on this subject. CNN broke away from that press conference. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president never downplayed the virus. Once again, the president expressed calm.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right. That was the press secretary at the White House lying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: What do you make of what CNN did there?
SANDERS: I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not. This is exactly what Democrats and their liberal media allies do every time they don't like an argument or they can't win the argument based on the facts. They resort to name calling, personal attacks.
And CNN is one of the very worst at doing this. I witnessed it day in and day out at my time as the White House press secretary. And I write extensively about it in my book because the hypocrisy and the level of vitriol that we see from the mainstream media and from the liberal Democrat elite are just mind-blowing.
KURTZ: Just briefly, do you agree with the decision to phase out the press briefings to zero when you were press secretary because now, obviously, they've come back under Kayleigh McEnany. What changed?
SANDERS: Well, I think the president at the time had decided that they had become just a show and it wasn't allowing information to actually get out. The reporters oftentimes were becoming the story instead of reporting the story.
He didn't like the level of vitriol and anger that was directed at his team, myself included, and thought it would be better if we looked at other avenues to get our message out and to provide information to the American people.
Let's not forget that almost every reporter in the country had my personal cell phone, e-mail, and access to my office in the White House. I also did almost daily interviews in which I would gaggle on the lawn on my way back every single time after every interview.
So there was still enormous amount of access to both the press office and more importantly to the president himself who did, as you know, Howie, daily gaggles --
KURTZ: Yeah.
SANDERS: -- and Q&A sessions with reporters --
KURTZ: And he is still doing that.
SANDERS: -- more than any president in history.
KURTZ: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he is still doing that.
KURTZ: Let me ask you about -- let me ask you about The Atlantic piece. One source is saying that the president had denigrated fallen soldiers. You came out on the record and said, I was there in the room in France two years ago and the president didn't make any of those comments about why that supposedly that was the reason he didn't want to go to the cemetery.
And so my question is isn't it possible the president did make those comments to other people at another time that day when you were not present?
SANDERS: Well, the conversation about whether or not he would go, I was there. There were two different conversations where that was discussed. I was part of both of those. The president didn't say that.
I've come out on the record as have a number of other White House officials that were present that day and part of those conversations. I think the people that come out and make a charge like that anonymously are cowards. If you feel that strongly, put your name on it like the rest of us have done.
But not only that day, Howie, I travelled with the president all over the world, all over the country, spent almost every day with him for two and a half years and witnessed him interact with the men and women of our military, both in public and in private, and I can tell you that what I saw on those days for two and a half years was a president who loves our country, respects our military, and is doing what he thinks is best to help them.
The idea that he --
KURTZ: All right.
SANDERS: -- somehow doesn't feel that way to me is ludicrous.
KURTZ: Sarah, you did make some mistakes during your tenure such as saying that countless FBI agents did not support Jim Comey. Even now as you're making the rounds, some journalists today accuse you of having lied.
I also want to ask you about -- you took a lot of personal abuse. You and your family were kicked out of a Virginia restaurant, so called comedian Michelle Wolf mocking your weight. And then you write in your book that MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace called you vile, Mika Brzezinski said you are rotten to the core. Did all that wear on you?
SANDERS: Certainly, I think those moments are hard not to take a little bit of a toll, but the best thing I had going for me is I'm a person of deep faith, so I didn't need MSNBC or The New York Times or anybody else to define me.
As a Christian and a believer, that's already been done by my creator. I leaned heavily on my faith during my time at the White House. I also have an incredible support system of family and friends that were there for me during those difficult days.
I'm proud of the job that we did, I'm proud to have worked for this president, and I'm proud of the many accomplishments that were made not just in my two and a half years but in the four years under this president.
KURTZ: I have just a few seconds, but any regrets, anything you wish you had done to maybe lower the temperature between you and the press corps?
SANDERS: Certainly had moments where I tried to lower the temperature. You're never going to be perfect. Not a single one of us on this planet is. But I tried to learn from the mistakes I made, make sure I never repeated them. Again, I think we did a great job and worked really hard on behalf of the American people and spent every single day --
KURTZ: All right.
SANDERS: -- trying to make the country better. I write it about it in my books, speaking for myself, and I hope people will read it and learn more about who this president is and what he's done for the country.
KURTZ: Right. Not being perfect applies to journalists, as well. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, very good to see you.
SANDERS: Always great. Thanks, Howie.
KURTZ: Ahead, the season's first NFL protest drawing some boos. But after the break, when will journalists challenge Joe Biden the way they take on Donald Trump?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Joe Biden was giving a speech in Michigan the other day when he reacted to President Trump's comments about the coronavirus in those taped Bob Woodward interviews and some conservative commentators pushed back on Biden's record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He knew how deadly it was. It was much more deadly than the flu. He knew and purposely played it down. Worse, he lied to the American people.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: On February 1st, Joe Biden, the day after the president put the travel ban in effect, he suggested that travel ban was racist. He called it hysterical, xenophobia, and fearmongering.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: As for Joe Biden, he was the one who was downplaying the virus. He criticized Trump's China travel ban and was out campaigning at events into March.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: JOinign us now from New York, Jessica Tarlov of Bustle, a Fox News contributor. Jessica, you said on the air you believe that President Trump lied about the virus, but what about Biden's record on COVID-19 and the pushback from the right? Shouldn't the mainstream media challenge Biden on his record, as well?
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think the mainstream media -- the media in general should hold politicians' feet to the fire. But I think it's very different what Joe Biden did versus what Donald Trump did.
If there were tapes exposing over nine hours that Joe Biden was misleading the American public, that he knew for instance that it was airborne but told them that it was just not as bad as the common flu, then I think a lot of people or democrats their whole lives would be rethinking their vote for Joe Biden.
So I don't think there's a direct comparison there. I'm perfectly happy for people like Jay Tapper to push Biden about his NAFTA record.
I honestly think it's better for Democrats to be in a position where we can acknowledge things that are good like the USMCA, who had Sherrod Brown, one of our great economic populist and proponent of labor on the democratic side in support of it and say this is a good policy and this is how I can build on it.
KURTZ: Right. New Fox News poll out today has a slight tightening of the race, with 56-41 Biden lead. The pattern seems to be in terms of news coverage. Biden goes somewhere, he makes a speech, and he's either asked a question or he is asked to speech something that Trump said that he's criticized on, and that becomes the story. Doesn't that lead him off the hook again about his own record?
TARLOV: I really don't think that Joe Biden has been let off the hook. I can't even count the number of times that I've heard not only here on our own network but on other networks people criticizing Joe Biden for running a campaign out of his basement.
(INAUDIBLE) had to push back on people saying that when we know full well that Joe Biden has been on the trail and that during the height of COVID- 19, he went out whenever he could, you know, safely and responsibly.
So I just can't buy into that argument about it. I think that the mainstream media does have a lot of liberals working for them. Do I think that they have the same antagonistic relationship with Joe Biden that they do with Donald Trump? Absolutely not.
But Joe Biden has never called the press the enemy of the people. He has never pointed at someone in the crowd and said fake news. He has never said to his supporters, look over there, it is where the fake news people are.
So it makes sense that they don't have as antagonistic of a relationship with them because he doesn't hate them and he knows what purpose they serve as support of the state.
KURTZ: Yeah. Well, in fairness, the president also gets about 5,000 times more negative coverage. But you mentioned CNN's Jake Tapper. He had an interview with Joe Biden this week.
TARLOV: Well, he is president.
KURTZ: Let me just get the question out. He is the president. He did begin with the Woodward book and COVID and all of that. But then he did press Biden on his record, in supporting NAFTA, on trade generally. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: He has supported NAFTA. He has supported most favored nation status for China. And Trump did renegotiate NAFTA. Obama and Biden didn't.
BIDEN: Oh, I will tell you what we did do. We inherited the greatest recession short of the depression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Why don't we see more questions like that directed to Biden?
TARLOV: Well, I hope that we will. The campaign really starts in earnest after Labor Day. I know that because we spent a billion dollars trying to get someone elected. It is like we're perpetually on the trail.
But Joe Biden will be doing more of these interviews. I think he has been pushed more in the last few weeks. He certainly was during the debates. His own vice president pushed him on his bussing record. Remember when Kamala Harris stood up there and said that little girl was me.
He has had to talk about his vote on the crime bill. He has had to talk about that he previously wasn't in favor of same sex marriage and how he evolved to be the ultimate champion of that and to push it through the Supreme Court in 2015. So Joe Biden is going to be pressed. I don't think that this is really a concern.
KURTZ: All right. Well, I hope the former V.P. does more television interviews. One last sound bite for you aired last night on Jeanine Pirro's show. They were talking about what they saw as Biden's uneven debate performances in the democratic debates. Let's roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: How do you think he goes from incoherent to coherent?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think there's probably -- possibly drugs involved. That's what I hear. I mean, there's possibly drugs. I don't know how you can go from being so bad where you can't even get out of a sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: What is your take on the president throwing out this charge of possible drug use by Biden without any evidence?
TARLOV: Oh, he's speaking to his base of conspiracy theorists that are going to run around the internet saying that Joe Biden is on drugs. They did this with Hillary Clinton, as well, where they said that she had Parkinson's disease. He's a fearmonger. He is conspiracy theory spreader.
This is no different. It is so irresponsible. I wish that Judge Pirro had pushed back and said what are you talking about? You have no evidence of this.
I have been consistent through my time appearing on air that I don't want to speculate about anyone's physical condition, what disorders they might have. It is reckless and it is irresponsible. But Trump's base loves this. I'm sure QAnon is having a wonderful day.
KURTZ: All right. Jessica Tarlov doesn't hold back. Thank you, Jessica.
Still to come, the president's son says he is done with the NFL. But a new poll shows more tolerance for racial protest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KURTZ: Today is the first NFL Sunday since the pandemic and the controversy over player protests is making headlines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BOOING)
KURTZ: In the opening game in Kansas City, the Chief and the Houston Texans locked arms as messages like Black Lives Matter flashed on the scoreboard. Chief's player Alex Okafor took a knee during the anthem, and as you're hearing, some boos from the crowd.
This as the new Washington Post poll finds 56 percent of Americans say it's appropriate for athletes to kneel during the anthem to protest racial inequality, 42 percent saying not appropriate.
Joining us now, Fox News correspondent and sports fanatic Griff Jenkins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
KURTZ: Griff, in that same poll, Washington Post found 59 percent of football fans saying -- approving anthem protest. How much of a sea change is that and how much is the media coverage, do you think, contributing to the shifting attitudes?
GRIFF JENKINS, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Howie. I am very excited, no doubt, and it is really a case of that was then, this is now. If you look back at the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll from August of 2018, 43 percent said that it was appropriate to kneel, 54 percent said not appropriate. We've seen a total flip, a sea change indeed.
How much the media played in it? I'm not sure. But you have certainly seen attitudes change. You're seeing it across really all sports for that matter. And of course, the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell, doing an about face on it, and we have seen Dallas' owner Jerry Jones saying today he expects in Dallas to see some protests and he's OK with that.
KURTZ: Yeah. I think in this environment, the media coverage has to be at least a factor. Now, the president has tweeted very critically about NFL protests and his son, Eric Trump, tweeting, football is officially dead, so much for America's sport, good-bye NFL, I'm gone. Is that a premature obituary overall?
JENKINS: We'll see how it works out. If the president really does engage, he obviously won when Colin Kaepernick first did it and it became a culture issue. But now, things have changed so much and really sports fans, football fans like myself, who can't wait to watch Washington's football team take on the Eagles here in just an hour or so.
And also, you know, we don't know how the season is going to change and what will be out there. We will be watching for the players' helmets to see what messages are written on the helmets. We are going to hear the Black national anthem, as well as the regular national anthem. There are so many changes.
But I think ultimately the core fans are going to be geared up for one thing and that is watching great football. I have Tom Brady and Gronk on my fantasy football team, and I'll be looking to retain my championship trophy, Howie, by the end of the season.
KURTZ: Nice prop. Well, look, the ratings for NBC's airing of the Kansas City game which should have some fans, a lot of stadiums would be empty, down 12 percent from last year's season openings. So, if the ratings keep sliding, will we know if the protests are a factor or maybe just the fact that most of the stadiums are going to be empty and quiet?
JENKINS: Well, I think it's too early to say on the ratings. It is down 12 percent. However, we're just getting started. There was no preseason. Things are not normal. As people come back and realize that they can watch football again as the fall season hits, I think people are going to start to engage and a maybe we'll see these ratings go up. Only time will tell.
KURTZ: All right. You can tell when Griff Jenkins is pumped up. He has a little trophy. He's really excited. And for those of you who are excited about football six NFL games on Fox today, you can check your local listing for that. Thanks, Griff.
JENKINS: Thanks.
KURTZ: And that's it for this edition of “Media Buzz.” I'm Howard Kurtz. We hope you'll like our of Facebook page. You can check out my daily columns there. We can continue the conversation on Twitter.
And my podcast, "Media Buzzmeter," I enjoy talking about the top five stories of the day and the media coverage and all that. You can subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcast. You can get it on your Amazon device.
I'm out of time, so I am going to throw one last ball here. Back here next Sunday. We will see you then with the latest buzz.
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END
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