This is a rush transcript from "The Story," September 4, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Good evening everyone, I'm a Martha MacCallum, and this is "The Story."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We have kicked the can down the road long enough, there is no more road left. The states could not be hired. Urgency is now. 24 years of half measures and failed talks is enough. Kim Jong-un's action cannot be seen as defensive. And this nuclear threat shows that he is begging for war.
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MACCALLUM: Very tough talk from it Nikki Haley today on this Labor Day. An emergency session at the U.N. here in New York. There is no time to waste, as she said. North Korea's now six nuclear tests, a clear U.N. violation, and a truly frightening escalation. An underground hydrogen bomb, five to ten times bigger than the weapon dropped on Hiroshima -- just think about that for a moment. And now, a threat that they're getting ready to launch another muscle. So, we have lots of analysis on all this tonight. And regime supporters, speaking out in Pyongyang. Watch this interesting soundbite.
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CHOI SONG, PYONGYANG CITIZEN (through translator): We will smash any kind of sanctions we could. We have single-hearted unity and the great power of self-development. If the U.S. Imperialists try to play around with us, we will wipe them out.
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MACCALLUM: Chief National Correspondent, Ed Henry, here now on how the White House is responding to all of this. Boy, busy weekend. No time to relax on this one.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You think about how much hate President Trump is taking from the Democrats, dating back to day one of this administration charging he's not up to the job of commander in chief. And then, over the last 24 to 48 hours, from Defense Secretary James Mattis in the White House drive way yesterday, to U.S. Ambassador Nikki Haley today at the U.N., as you noted, the world has seen a calm and cool Trump administration taking charge of this crisis, after the president convened his national security team at the White House, Sunday.
Earlier yesterday, they'd been tweeting specifically about putting the onus on China. The president, tweeting among other things: "North Korea is a rogue nation, which has become a great threat and embarrassment to China, which is trying to help, but with little success." He added later, "The U.S. is considering, in addition to other options, stopping all trade with any country doing business with North Korea." That largely aimed at China. Then, today, the president carefully working the phones -- first talking to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. The White House saying: "President Trump noted that this latest provocation only serves to increase the international community's resolve to counter North Korea's prohibited the activities. All options to address the North Korean threat are on the table."
President also spoke with the president of South Korea. The White House, declaring about that call, "The two leaders agreed to maximize pressure on North Korea using all means of their disposal." Adding interestingly, "President Trump also provided his conceptual approval for the purchase of many billions of dollars' worth of military weapons and equipment from the U.S. by South Korea." That, too, aimed at China -- that specific military buildup. Not just at North Korea, but it rankles China and it came after some tough talk by two of the president's top advisors.
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HALEY: Enough is enough. We have taken an incremental approach, and despite the best of intentions, it has not worked.
JAMES MATTIS, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Kim Jong-un should take heed of the United Nations Security Council's unified voice. We are not looking to the total annihilation of a country, namely North Korea. But as I said, we have many options to do so.
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HENRY: Now, you can see what they're trying to do is exhaust those options: first, the diplomatic ones, Martha, then turn, potentially, to the military wants. Because the concern with these ICBMs that could have small nuclear weapons on them. If North Korea gets to the point of no return where they have this capability, we have to make sure that we have the defenses to try to shoot it down. But diplomacy is only going to go so far if, in fact, they have this capability.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, the threat of ending all trade with China is a pretty dramatic one.
HENRY: Economically, could boomerang on the U.S.
MACCALLUM: It's impossible to carry out, mostly. But we'll see where it goes from there. Ed, thank you very much.
HENRY: Good to see you.
MACCALLUM: Good to see you too. So, here with me now: Laura Rosenberger, the former NSC Director for China and Korea; Mike Chinoy, a Nonresident Senior Fellow at the U.S. China Institute at UFC; and General Anthony Tata a former Brigadier General in the United States Army and a former Deputy Commanding General of the U.S. Forces in Afghanistan. A great team to go through this with us tonight. Thank you all for being here.
Mike, let me start with you on this. Let's take a look at this map because there's a reason that this latest explosion has really caught everyone's attention -- it's going to be coming up in just a moment. So, there's a look at Guam, and then you can see the capacity to potentially hit the United States with one of these. What is so disturbing about this missile test over the weekend?
MIKE CHINOY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S.-CHINA INSTITUTE AT UFC: Well, this missile test -- this nuclear test was larger than any that the North Koreans have previously conducted. And I think what it tells us is that the North Korea Leader, Kim Jong-un, is moving full speed ahead to build up a missile and nuclear capability. But I think it's important to recognize that for all of their bluster and all of their threats, the North Koreans, and I've been to North Korea 17 times since 1989, and I have a lot of chance to talk to them. The North Koreans feel themselves under threat from the United States, and they see having a nuclear and missile capability as a way to ward off an attack from the United States. So, at this stage of the game, I don't see the North Koreans for all of their rhetoric, is actually planning any kind of offensive move against the United States. This is deterrence, North Korea style, they want to convince the United States to lay off of them. But, of course, the danger in the situation is that you have a cycle of escalation that could get out of control.
MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean they are clearly looking for the leverage to escalate this and to increase their own ability to negotiate and to be a power player in the region, Laura, right?
LAURA ROSENBERGER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NSC FOR CHINA AND KOREA: Yes. I think that is absolutely right that what we are seeing from Pyongyang is not necessarily any kind of threats of the offense of action. It's certainly, though -- I mean, the threat continues to grow. The capability of this program is a serious one, it's been on a deliberate track. Kim Jong-un has accelerated the progress. I worry about two things. One is I really worry about the risk of miscalculation. As Mike was pointing out, I don't think that the North Koreans are looking to strike out first, but what we've seen in the past is that sometimes conflicts can start inadvertently because of some kind of miscommunication, a lack of clarity in statements.
And I think that's why it's so important that we'd be coordinated with our allies, and very, very clear in our words. And I also worry about the fact that, you know, we need to have a whole government approach, highly coordinated across all parts of the government. Very glad to see that that seems to be starting to happen. I worry about, you know, tweets that sometimes undercut what other members of the administration are saying, and I think that it's really time to get serious about this.
MACCALLUM: General Tata, do you worry about that?
GEN. ANTHONY TATA, FORMER BRIGADIER GENERAL IN THE UNITED STATES ARMY AND FORMER DEPUTY COMMANDING GENERAL OF THE U.S. FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: Well, I think the Trump administration has been employing a diplomatic information, military, economic campaign. That's what the last couple of months have been all about, the statements, the tweets, the military flyovers, the economic sanctions, the front door and back door diplomacy. All of that has been synchronized better than I had ever seen it synchronized in the previous eight years. So, I think that's going just fine. What we've got to back up and look at, Martha is that our national security strategy has really been founded on two principles. One is an international order founded upon the rule of law and international law. And then, the stop -- to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Those two things are the fundamental bedrock of our national security strategy.
North Korea is in direct violation of both of them. And so, that is why the Trump administration is standing so firm here when the Obama administration appeased North Korea that, you know, four of these nuclear tests took place on President Obama's watch. So, now what we've got, is a nuclear capable North Korea, apparently, where they can put a hydrogen bomb on an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile that can reach the United States. That's unacceptable. And so, what I would like to see is the beginning of a noncombatant evacuation from the Republic of Korea. I would like to see two carrier strike groups off of the Korean Peninsula. I would like to see the 18th Airborne Corps with the 10th Mountain Division, 82nd Airborne Division, 101st Airborne Division, begin movement in that direction. I would like to see marines begin movement in that direction so that they know that we're serious. And would two things and with some teeth --
MACCALLUM: Absolutely. (INAUDIBLE) because we only have a minute, I want to get to these other folks as well. In terms of China, Mike Chinoy, where are they on all of this? I mean, what can we expect from them? They seem to think that this is more serious than it's been, but they don't really do anything about it ever.
CHINOY: The Chinese are in a very uncomfortable position here. They don't like North Korea's nuclear program, but they are also very afraid that too much pressure on North Korea could lead to regime collapse, instability, and so I don't think that the Chinese are going to do much that is really going to change the calculation. And one of the problems here is that even if sanctions hurt North Korea, there's very little evidence that sanctions alone are going to force Kim Jong-un to change his position. What's the Chinese keep asking for is some kind of efforts at diplomacy. And here, I think as deterrence ramp up on the American side, it's time for President Trump to take a very bold step. I argued that he ought to send Defense Secretary Mattis to Pyongyang, and tell Kim Jong-un directly what's at stake. This isn't a negotiation, this is a blunt talk from the United States to see whether there's any possibility of diplomatic movement, if not, then the deterrence ramps up.
MACCALLUM: Great points, all. Thank you very much. Good to have you all here tonight. So, also breaking tonight, and another hurricane and it is a big one -- upgraded just an hour ago to a category four now. So, Florida Governor, Rick Scott, is declaring a pre-emptive state of emergency as Hurricane Irma barrels towards his state. That, as the death toll continues to rise in Texas. And of the massive cleanup is just beginning, folks. Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick joins me from Houston. Also, President Trump's DACA decision is looming. So, what will he do? History shows he has been conflicted on this issue, to say the least. Watch this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to deport children?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, no. We're going to keep the families together. We have to keep the families together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you're going to keep them head out.
TRUMP: But they have to go. The DACA situation is a very, very -- it's a very difficult thing for me. Because, you know, I love these kids. I love kids. I have kids and grandkids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Katrina Pierson and Richard Fowler with their sides of the story tonight. Plus, a stunning decision in Penn State's hazing death case as these most serious charges are dropped against the fraternity brothers in the death of Timothy Piazza. The family's attorney responds in an exclusive interview only on THE STORY tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what's going on today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a friend who's unconscious. He hasn't moved. We probably need an ambulance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, President Trump's predecessor is now threatening to step into action if he ends -- if President Trump ends the DACA program tomorrow. He is expected to not to renew the Obama-era program that protects hundreds of thousands of young immigrants brought into the country illegally as children, but there's a catch. Fox's Rich Edson with the details tonight from Washington.
RICH EDSON, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. President Trump has called it one of the most difficult subjects before him -- whether to continue Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA. Sources familiar with the decision tell Fox News, the president is expected to announce tomorrow his administration is ending DACA. They stress nothing is finalized. As the White House source says, the president has spoken today with various stakeholders on the issue, though the president is expected to phase out the program in six months. Giving Congress, until then. to arrive at a legislative replacement.
The Obama administration implemented DACA in 2012, protecting from deportation those brought to the U.S. younger than 16, living in the country for at least five years, and with clean criminal records. Citing a person close to the former president, Politico reports President Obama will publicly address President Trump's decision, posting a response on Facebook and a link on Twitter. This, as lawmakers across Congress, weigh in. Some Republicans like Congressman Steve King oppose DACA, claiming it encourages others to bring their children to the U.S. illegally. He tweeted: "Ending DACA now gives chance to restore rule of law. Delaying so R Leadership can push amnesty is Republican suicide."
House Speaker Paul Ryan says, he opposed President Obama's creation of DACA as unconstitutional, though he is against President Trump ending it without Congress devising a solution, other Republicans agree. In a statement, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham writes: "I have always believed DACA was a presidential overreach. However, I equally understand the plight of the Dream Act kids who -- for all practical purposes -- know no country other than America." Democrats say they are ready to extend the program if Republicans agree, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Thanks to Rich Edson. So, here now with more: Katrina Pierson, Spokesperson for America First Policy, she also served as Spokesperson for the Trump Campaign; and Richard Fowler, Nationally Syndicated Radio Talk Show Host, and a Fox News Contributor. Welcome, to both of you. Thanks for being here on this Labor Day evening.
Katrina, you know, I struggle with the sound bite that we played earlier on our way into the break. The president has clearly, you know, sort of said at times that he's going to protect the dreamers, and at other times said, you know, they have to go. So, how has he arrived at his decision here? And you know, how does he reconcile those two positions?
KATRINA PIERSON, SPOKESPERSON, AMERICA FIRST POLICY: Well, technically, we don't know his decision at this point. But as it's being discussed, it's exactly what he said on the campaign trail, if you are in this country illegally, the law should be enforced, and ultimately, that means deportation if you do not things the correct way. However, he also made a caveat later on in the campaign, specifically with his immigration policy that he would not prioritize these individuals.
I'd like to make one distinction here. We keep talking about this as these are some children, these are adults in their 20s and 30s, who are knowingly and willingly in this country. And I understand they were brought here by no fault of their own, but how about an American person that's in their 20s and 30s break the law? What law enforcement agency is going to say well, it's just not going to happen. This isn't about who's good or who's bad --
MACCALLUM: So, the average age, Katrina, is 22-years-old, and they were brought here in most cases. And you heard what Lindsey Graham said in that statements that we put up, you know, most of them have never known any other country in their whole lives. But you know, President Trump on many occasions has said, you know, I love kids, and these kids are so special. He had -- you know, at times, when he spoke with children of immigrants at the White House on one occasion, and he said, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for them. So, what happened to that is the question?
PIERSON: Well, he's also met with families who've been impacted by some of these children who weren't here doing good things.
MACCALLUM: Criminals. Criminal behavior is different.
PIERSON: But that's exactly why I'm saying that it's not about who's good or who's bad here, this is about the law. DAPA was rejected in the courts, and DACA would be too. He had to do what's right for American citizens. Period.
MACCALLUM: All right. Richard, what do you think?
RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR AND NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well a couple of clarity about DACA. So, to register for DACA, you have to be here before the age of 15, you have to live here for five years, and you cannot commit any crimes. The moment you commit a crime, you are no longer eligible for DACA.
MACCALLUM: A second crime, Richard, you have to clarify because you know a lot of people watching this, they're saying, well, they already broken the law. They've already committed a crime, but you're talking about another crime after they were here.
FOWLER: Committing a crime while they're here. Additionally, 91 percent of DACA students are working in this country, 100 percent has to be working, in the military, or attending school here. So, these are productive members of our society. They know no other country, they pledge allegiance to our flag, they play on our kids' softball teams, hockey teams, football teams, and they want to do is achieve the American dream. And this president is putting not a stumbling block, Martha, a big wall in the way of them achieving the American dream. It's sort of sad that we've come to this point. And the fact that he's relying on Congress to get this done is even more sad, and here's why: because he's dependent on Congress to get Obamacare repealed, makes them to do that. So, what in what world is he saying? In the next six months, Congress is going to pass some sort of Dream Act, when they couldn't do on the Barack Obama --
MACCALLUM: You have 30 seconds, Katrina, go ahead.
PIERSON: If Democrats are serious about doing anything for illegal immigrants in this country, they should've done it --
FOWLER: We've been serious. It's Republicans who have the problem.
PIERSON: While Obama had every branch of the government. He didn't because it isn't --
FOWLER: We tried, and Republicans filibustered it and the lame duck.
PIERSON: Congress needs to do this. It's not the president to act, which is exactly why Obama was defeated with DAPA. The same thing is going to happen here. And you can't brush all of these people with a broad stroke, saying they're all doing these things --
FOWLER: No. I'm only talking about the 800,000 DACA students.
MACCALLUM: We got to go. You know what, there's a lot that has to be determined here. When you talk about people who have -- hold on, guys, we got to go -- people who've served the country will likely be any different category, but there have to be some stipulations made along the way and that's we're going to be watching.
PIERSON: And who's overseeing that? That is the question.
FOWLER: It would be ICE.
MACCALLUM: All right. Thank you, Katrina. Thank you, Richard. Bye, guys. See you guys next time.
FOWLER: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: All right. Breaking tonight, Florida Governor Rick Scott has declared a pre-emptive state of emergency because look at Irma churning out there as we are just beginning the cleanup in Houston. There is another huge hurricane churning out there. So, we're going to continue to show you what's going on with that as we pick up the pieces from Harvey. Listen to this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said, oh, another wave is coming, and it's not a wave of the bayou anymore, it's a wave of emotion. And it's just -- it just keeps, it keeps coming.
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MACCALLUM: We've seen a lot of sentiment just like that. They're not out of the woods yet. We are going to be live from the hard-hit area of southeast Texas this week. So, stay tuned for that. Texas Governor -- Lieutenant Governor, Dan Patrick, is here to talk to us about the long road to recovery ahead. And new questions tonight for one of the most vocal liberal groups in this country, as they reserve their sharpest condemnation for just one of these people that you see on this screen. Which one would it be? The story, when we come back.
MACCALLUM: A state of emergency has just been declared in Florida because Hurricane Irma is now a category four storm, and it is churning towards the states. They don't know exactly which direction it's going to go in, there are many models across that area, but a lot of people are battening down the hatches all through the Bahamas and up into Florida. It's the biggest hurricane at this point to head that way since the devastating Hurricane Andrew. So, Irma lurks out there, the president is calling for almost $8 billion in relief for the people of Texas, still, heartbroken and still reeling from the devastation that they have endured in Harvey.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today is the first time I've really broken down. And I feel like I need this. I need to talk to you. I need to get it out. Because we're strong. We're going to make it, we're going to pull up our big girl pants and move on. We have no insurance. None.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Wow. I mean, these stories just go on and on, and you can hear in that woman's voice, obviously, her emotion as she faces what comes in the future. Fox Senior Correspondent Rick Leventhal is in Orange, Texas right now -- very hard-hit part of the lone star state. Good evening, Rick.
RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS CHANNEL SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. We're in the parking lot of the cowboy church of Orange County, they've been giving away food, and water, and household supplies all day, and just set up this large tent to try and keep things cool in the Texas heat -- just over 91 degrees today. And over here at district (INAUDIBLE) point, set up a by Orange County Agro-life to give out hay and feed, and pet and dog food -- pet food for dogs and cats and other animals that are trapped and stranded and hungry in this storm. All of this, donated. They've been coming in all day. Delivering it, volunteers from eight different states, I'm told. And people have been picking it up as fast as people have been dropping it off. This gentleman right here behind has just picked up some hay and some feed for his livestock. Earlier today, we saw a young man picking up stuff for some horses just down the road. Jerel Lazenby, taking care of some horses at a farm just a few miles down the road and told us how important all this is to him.
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LEVENTHAL: It's not like you can just go to the store and buy what you need right now.
JEREL LAZENBY, RESIDENT OF HOUSTON, TEXAS: No, sir, not at all. Because there's not -- like no store is open right now. So, we try to do the best that we can to take care of our animals.
LEVENTHAL: And this donation, this hay is available right down the road now, that's got to be a huge help for you.
LAZENBY: Yes, sir. It's a blessing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEVENTHAL: Martha, more than 500 animals have been rescued here in Orange County alone, and part of this county is still flooded tonight.
MACCALLUM: Rick, thank you. It is so inspiring, really, watching all of these people as they go through this. There's so much strength in their voices. And I'm joined now by another strong person in Texas, Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. Good to see you tonight, sir. Thank you for being with us.
LT. GOV. DAN PATRICK, R-TEXAS: Hi, Martha. Yes, ma'am
MACCALLUM: Give us an update on sort of where this moves now, because you've got the shelters and some people are moving out of the shelters, some people are being taken to other locations in Dallas. Where are you now on this?
PATRICK: Well, right now, I am concerned where Rick is in Beaumont, power went out about a half-hour ago, there is no drinking water in Beaumont, so we are really focused on the entire breath of the storm, which would be like a storm hitting New York and Maine having repercussions from it. That's how big the storm is in the distance. So right now, Beaumont, 140,000 people, Martha, spotty power, no drinkable water, so our hospitals, our businesses can't operate, there's only one restaurant I'm told open in Beaumont. I was there Friday, the river just crusted. So, it's still a very, very significant event, including rescuing people today. If you go to the front end of the storm where it hit in Rockport, that was a wind issue, we're getting those cities back up and running, but it will be a long time.
And then of course, Houston, with two and a half million people, in a county of another 2 million people, we think we have -- and I had sadly predicted this, that we may had 250 to 300,000 homes, some will have to be demolished because the water sit so long, so much mold grows. Most can be repaired, but this is going to be, as Governor Abbott said, you know, when it finally tabs up the total of dollars spent to recover it will be $150 to $200 billion. And for some people, it will be months and months, and for our whole area, it could well be a few years before we get back to our new normal. And it's a chance for us, Martha, to rebuild our city, and making them the shining city on the hill. It's a chance for us to look at all of these issues we must address, our infrastructure, that had set for too long without being addressed, for decades.
MACCALLUM: Well, you've got your work cut out for you, and the right attitude to be sure. I do want to ask you about this superfund sites, a lot of stories about this this morning that there are over a dozen in the Houston area that flooded and that are in danger of having a rupture or going into the ground soil, and there is a lot of concern out there about these sites, what can you tell everybody about this.
PATRICK: Well, it is a concern. And as we see the issues, as we weigh in to the areas where our infrastructure is, we discover problems, whether it's a private plant that's impacting our energy sector, or whether it's a superfund site. We have several of them in the Houston area. The EPA is here, they're taking samples. They are concerned. And whatever we need to do, the federal government and the state government will clean it up and as quick as possible, I can assure you. I have been overwhelmed, Martha, by the support from the federal government, the president, and FEMA, they've just been terrific. The state has done a great job, and city and counties.
However, Martha, I just have to continue to share with our great Texans, some will need patience. Some are starting to return to normal now. Volunteers are everywhere. Our church -- I go to a pretty big church, 60,000 members, they hope to have 10,000 people out repairing homes this week. So we will recover, and it is a great spirit, we're one Texas, no Republicans, no Democrats, no liberals or conservatives, we're just all on this together with the help of 40 other states. We'll get through it, Martha, but it will be a long road back. And I'm worried about Irma. I pray for our friends in Florida. And I also don't want to see it coming to gulf. I don't like it tracks right now for either of us.
MACCALLUM: I've got to go.
PATRICK: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Lieutenant, thank you very much. Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. And we're going to be headed that way because we want to see this story up close because, you know, it's so easy to forget and to move on, but as you can tell from listening to these people, they're right in the very beginning of starting to get through this process. So we're going to go down there and see things and talk to people there on the ground. It's a site of, obviously, so much tragedy, but also a lot of bravery, a lot of hope happening in Texas, so we will be there in some of the hard-hit areas on Wednesday night, so we'll look for that. Join us at 7:00 for that.
So the group that has vilified -- we talk a lot about the SPLC, but they have vilified Ben Carson, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and former Islamic extremist, now moderate, Maajid Nawaz, now weighing in on Antifa. So what do we think about that group, you might wonder. We're going to tell you when we speak to Maajid Nawaz, coming up next. Plus, a stunning development in the Penn State hazing case, as the judge drops the most serious charges, but there's a reason for hope for justice here, so we will talk to the attorney for the family who you've seen here many times as this story moves forward after this.
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UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: They knew what they were doing was wrong. They even identified it as hazing. They had the intent to make them drink a lot of alcohol. And then, they had no conscience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Developing tonight, the controversial Southern Poverty Law Center is now weighing in with their evaluation of the group Antifa, behind some of the violent protest that we have seen in recent weeks. But the SPLC will not label them a hate group as such, they do, however, consider our next guest someone worthy of their extremist watch list. So he wants to figure out what's going on there.
Maajid Nawaz is a former Islamic extremist, he's now the cofounder of Quilliam, and speaks out as a moderate Muslim on these issues. Good to see you again, Maajid. Welcome back to the program.
MAAJID NAWAZ, FORMER ISLAMIC EXTREMIST: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So they say that they wouldn't go so far as to label them a hate group. Richard Cohen, the head of the SPLC, says they're wrongheaded, but they're not a hate group. When you watch some of these videos with them covered in black masks and wailing people over the back of their head and neck with a big stick, that's a little curious, don't you think?
NAWAZ: Well, of course it is. And these people are people who resorted to violence, and you've just mentioned, whether it's in Barclay College or in other such places where they've even attacked people, people inspired not only by Antifa but by the Southern Poverty Law Center list itself, have attacked people. And here I am, somebody who calls for peace, tolerance, unity, moderation, secularism, democracy, and they've listed me as an anti- Muslim extremist, while I'm a Muslim. And the irony here is that I spent 13 years, Martha, as you know, as an actual Islamic extremist in my youth, I was never lifted by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I went to prison as a political prisoner in Egypt, for those previous extreme views I've since renounced. And for 10 years after having founded Quilliam as a counter extremism organization, I've been pushing back against Islamist extremism, and now the Southern Poverty Law Center decides to list me as an anti- Muslim extremist.
MACCALLUM: I mean, when you think about it, you look at what happened in Barcelona, you look at what happened in Brussels, the kind of acts that you are working to stop, to fight against, and they have you on their extreme watch list, which you are suing them over, how's that going?
NAWAZ: Well, I was the first among other groups that followed. To announce I'm suing them for defamation, because they were certain allegations they've made against me which don't come under the first amendment rights of free speech, even though they may be wrong. They have made factual errors about the reason they've cited, and their representatives have cited, for why they think I'm an anti-Muslim extremist. And that's why, Martha, if you look at their website and archive the history for why they've listed me, they're now reverse engineering those reasons and deleting the original reasons that they had on there a year ago. I think that's an admission of culpability. They know they've got this wrong, but they're being stubborn, they are trying to save their own face with this, and they are resisting taking my name off, and I think that they have recognized that they made a huge error, but it's too late for them to change their minds.
MACCALLUM: Yeah. I mean, they have labeled the Family Research Council, a Christian group, they're on their hate group list. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, they've gone after, Ben Carson, they've gone after, this is a group that was founded to go after the Ku Klux Klan, and they did so admirably. So they use to fight a terrorist group in America, but now people who are fighting against terrorists, they have a problem with. I mean, it just -- it feels so wrong on so many levels.
NAWAZ: This is where the far left have come to jump the shark in many instances, their desperation to protect minority communities from any introspection criticism has led them to end up listing people that are trying to do that introspection as anti-Muslim extremist, and it's beyond the pale, as you mention. They listed all these people. And ultimately, if you look at it, in my case and in Ayaan case and others, to conflate the critique of Islamist extremism with the religion of Islam is in essence saying they're one in the same thing. So the Southern Poverty Law Center is trying to avoid conflating Islam with Islamist extremism. By listing us, they are in essence saying that to critique Muslim extremism is to critique of Islam, and so they're the same thing. And that's the trap they've fallen into.
MACCALLUM: Maajid, always good to have you with us. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time.
NAWAZ: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So there's some big new development tonight in the tragic case that we have been following very closely on here on The Story throughout the recent months, it involves the very sad and disturbing death of that young man, Penn State sophomore, Timothy Piazza, who is not among those who have gone back to school this fall, after a heavy night of drinking and brutal hazing, he lost his life. Thomas Klein is the attorney for the family, and he is here to react to the shocking ruling that came in from a Pennsylvania courtroom next.
MACCALLUM: New development tonight in a story that we've been covering here from it said beginning, the death of Penn State fraternity pledge, Timothy Piazza, who died in February after a night of alcohol fueled hazing rituals. This is the 911 call that his fraternity brothers made some 12 hours too late.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's going on today?
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We have a friend who is unconscious, he hasn't moved. We probably need an ambulance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: In a shocking announcement on Friday, a judge dropped the most serious charges against these young men who you see pictured, allowing four to walk free altogether. It is a ruling that has taken a toll on Timothy's heartbroken parents, who I spoke with back in May.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It's just heartbreaking that no one reacted earlier in the evening. They had many opportunities to call for help.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: They need to be held accountable. Right now, that's for a jury to decide.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It's something that I think about throughout the day, every day, since then.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So here now, the attorney representing the Piazza's, Thomas Klein. Thomas, thank you very much for coming in tonight on it this Labor Day evening.
THOMAS KLEIN, ATTORNEY: My pleasure.
MACCALLUM: So involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assaults were the two most serious charges. Those now are off the table, why?
KLEIN: Well, the judge saw fit to gets them off the table. The district attorney has said that she's going to refile the charges. But, Martha, I think the headline here is that reckless endangerment and hazing are on the table, over 500 counts against 14 individuals, ten facing hazing charges, and eight facing reckless endangerment charges. Reckless endangerment carries two years in jail, potentially. Hazing carries one year in jail. On each of those counts, there are 500 different counts against these individuals, including furnishing of alcohol to minors. This is a very serious case, and I believe that the headlines actually are wrong. There was a little bit too much back slapping, and handshaking, and fist pumping in that courtroom among defendants who are facing jail time.
MACCALLUM: I mean it's pretty shocking that there could be any fist pumping. I mean, even if they thought that they are going to get off. And as you point out, there are still plenty of charges that are going to be pressed here. Any jubilation in this entire situation is really unfathomable to me, to conceive of. That these young men said things like, he looks dead, on a text message to each other. They were very concerned about covering their tracks, they told each other to delete their text messages, delete the group me about buying the illegal alcohol for these underage students, and cover it up. They pushed him onto the couch. I mean, all of this is on video, right? So how strong do you feel the case is going forward?
KLEIN: The case is very strong. The case, inevitably, will lead to convictions. There's no doubt in my mind that they're going to get convicted of hazing, and hazing has up to one year imprisonment. There's no doubt in my mind that they are going to be convicted of reckless endangerment, which by the way, is the mirror image under Pennsylvania law of involuntary manslaughter, it is recklessly endangering a person and knowing that catastrophe could happen, which did happen.
And by the way, you just mention the cover-up. There are many of these individuals who are still facing the cover-up charges, the so-called tampering with evidence charges. There are so many serious charges here that remain here, that the story is just wrong. And in addition, the grand jury is still working, and the D.A. is still working, and she has the right to recharge. Why this is, as I like to say, in its preliminary stages, this was a preliminary hearing, and we're in inning one or maybe inning two of a long, long hall to go.
MACCALLUM: And I'm sure that's exactly what you told the family, right?
KLEIN: Oh, I counseled the family to that effect, and so did the district attorney, counseled the family to that effect. The Piazza's are in this for the long haul. They are determined steadfastly to make sure that those who are culpable are punished, but more importantly, that's their punishment serves as a deterrent.
KLEIN: That is what the Piazza's are interested in.
MACCALLUM: That is what I took away from our conversation as well. They don't want this to happen to any other child. And keep in mind, these kids are back in college, and the hazing and all of it is about to begin again, so this message is so important. Thomas, we've got to leave it there.
KLEIN: It is. And, Martha, we are working on changing the law.
MACCALLUM: Good for you.
KLEIN: . with both the state senate.
MACCALLUM: Good for you. We look forward to hearing more about that. Thank you very much, Thomas Kline.
MACCALLUM: Good to have you here again tonight. So we will be right back after this with the quote of the night. You don't want to miss it, next.
MACCALLUM: While we live in complicated times, as you know, and the focus today has been on North Korea. But there's another aggressor that is about to start war games in a few days, Russia and Belarus are gearing up for what they call, the Pod 2017. Several of their neighbors are very concerned that Russia may use these exercises as a cover, thinking that the timing is right to invade Poland, or Ukraine, or other countries in the area. I spoke with the deputy prime minister of Poland and he is urging the United States to stay vigilant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATEUSZ JAKUB MORAWIECKI, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER OF POLAND: Russia is aggressive. Russia is at our border. Russia has invaded Ukraine, and as Russia has invaded many countries for the last 400 years. So we have to fight hand in hand, arm in arm with American soldiers. We have to be together. We are very happy that there is this presence of American troops in our land. All the way from -- to Pulaski, we have fought together with American soldiers, arm in arm, today, Iraq and Afghanistan. So I'm sure this is the time when we have to be united, we have to be together. And as they say, united we stand, divided we fall. So I do not under underestimate what is going to happen in Belarus this.
MACCALLUM: How eminent do you think that that pushes? And what signs do you see that Vladimir Putin may seriously be considering that this is the right time for him to do that?
MORAWIECKI: Like, our president in 2008 was very vocal about Russia's aggression on Georgia, back then, and not too many people believed that he might have been right. But then -- and he said, Ukraine is going to be the next. And Ukraine was next. So today, I would not underestimate what is going to happen there. Poland is safe. Poland has a very strong army, but Russia is, of course, an aggressor in many countries and we have to be very watchful, very vigilant, together, arm in arm with American troops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: My thanks to the deputy prime minister. It was fascinating speaking with him. I urge you to watch the whole interview, which you can see online at foxnews.com. We talked about the threat that Russia poses in the region. You can also watch it on Facebook at The Story with Martha MacCallum, and on my page, as well.
So before we leave you tonight, as promised, the quote of the night gives us all something to think about. This is Elon Musk retweeting Vladimir Putin saying, that the nation that leads in artificial intelligence will be the ruler of the world. And that prompted this from Musk on twitter, it begins, China, Russia, soon all countries with strong computer science, competition for A.I. superiority at the national level will likely cause World War III. Think about that tonight. Have a good night, though, and we'll see you back here tomorrow.
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