Sen. Lee on surveillance, tax and health reform, new book

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," May 30, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL THE STORY WITH MARTHA MACCALLUM HOST: Good evening, everybody! I'm Martha MacCallum and here's "The Story": Russia headlines now including The president's inner circle. We are going to dig into this. What are the facts? What is real? What is not real? What is not legal? What is illegal? What is hysteria in this story? And what are the necessary questions that need to be asked? We will also talk about what is likely - mattering more to you: What's going on with health care? What is going on with tax reform in Washington? And as a big change about to happen that could get them passed with only 51 votes? That is huge news tonight.

Senator Mike Lee joins us in New York, in moments. He knows a lot about this, of course, and he's here in a bit. So, back to story number one with Jared Kushner. The subject of intense fascination throughout the unpredictable electoral triumph of Donald J. Trump; always at his father-in-law's side throughout the process of 36-year-old, often profiled, rarely quoted in these stories. So, after the election, a lot about his data analytics brainchild; how to this team of young political outsiders manage to help Donald Trump pull off this improbable victory?

Now, concerns about the interactions with those bots, and with these programs, and with the Russians - leading to speculation that maybe there was coordination between this Facebook Analytics, and Twitter, and all of this; and the mysterious role of bots. What are they? How do they work: flooding social media, influencing people's opinions? So, the reporters at the White House today got only this.


SEAN SPICER, PRESS SECRETARY: Mr. Kushner's attorney has said that - Mr. Kushner has volunteered to share with Congress what he knows about these meetings, and he will do the same with what he contacted or in connected with any other inquiry. I am not going to get into what The president did or did not discuss.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has he approved of that action?

SPICER: You're asking if he approves of an action that is not a confirmed action.


MACCALLUM: So, one person, who is the only person close to Jared Kushner, who's actually speaking out on the record and only here on "The Story," is the mastermind behind that data operation that got so much praise and now so much attention: Brad Parscale. His home paper in San Antonio with this headline: "San Antonio web firm might be included in probe of the Trump-Russia ties." He joins me now; Brad, thank you very much for being here tonight. Good to have you, good to see you back on the program again.

You have always been the subject of praise, and admiration, and great interest for this program. So, now, the question - now that it becomes more clear that the Russians were very involved in data, very involved in pushing things onto Facebook, pushing things onto Twitter, everyone wants to know if your work was intertwined in any way, shape, or form, with theirs.

BRAD PARSCALE, TRUMP PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN DIGITAL MEDIA DIRECTOR AND POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Absolutely not. I mean, this is kind of the funny thing. What's funny about this is that in the United States, we actually have access to some of the best data, and the data we used in this campaign - directly came from the Republican National Committee. And what they did after the 2012 election, to build a data set I've never seen before. We didn't need data; we didn't need it from anyone else. It was right here in the United States of America, and the best data is right here. All of that is available to corporations in America, and other people in America. And that is already something that is being done by companies, and something we did. We use things we have.

MACCALLUM: So, we do know, according to the investigations, that the Russians tried to influence the election, that they did it through hacking into emails, and that they found ways to push things onto social media in where else? In the counties that mattered in places like Pennsylvania, and Michigan, and Wisconsin. You guys were doing the same thing at the same time. Do you think - and did you ever notice anything strange? Did you ever notice, you know, sort of floods of information or these bots that are computer-generated which pushed thousands of bits of information onto Twitter, and Facebook? Did you ever go: "that's kind of weird, what is happening with that?"

PARSCALE: Absolutely not. It's so hard - there are so many packs: the DNC, the Hillary Clinton, multiple people are out there doing that. Our campaign was run in a way - the data we got from the Republican National Committee, advertising made down in San Antonio, Texas from a great team of people and working under Donald Trump. And here's the funny thing about all of this: Trump might not have needed us. He may have been able to win this whole thing with his just android and his plane and didn't need any of us.

That last one percent, possibly, came from this data operation; those little pieces there. And what's great is people like Katie Walsh, in the Republican National Committee that spent four years trying to build this don't get any credit for that. And the other side wants to believe this false narrative - because they don't want to believe the candidate was so bad that this is even possible. And the truth is that data was already there, and we just used it to beat a bad candidate with a great candidate.

MACCALLUM: All right. In terms of Jared Kushner, who you know well - I know you worked closely with him and he brought you into the campaign because he liked the work and Ivanka Trump like the work that you have done other things. What do you make of the fact that he is now part of the - not the investigation, they're interested in talking to him and he has said he is very willing to do so.

PARSCALE: So, you know, I don't talk to Jared a lot about what's happening in the policy portion and those kinds of things. We have a friendship, and we continue to communicate. However, I can tell you about Jared Kushner, the man. This is a guy that truly cares about myself, everybody on the campaign. He's intelligent; when you walk into a room with him, it's amazing what people around him - the way they respond to him. He is highly intelligent, cares about this country, and is truly a loving person. It's the hardest thing for me to almost watch this because I really like the man. And he is a person that cares every moment about different people. And you just hate to see that happening to good Americans, and people who want to move a country forward; he wants to support his father-in-law. And I just - I just can't believe it.

MACCALLUM: So, when you hear these stories and you hear some suggestion that, well, maybe he just didn't get it. You know, maybe he was having these talks with Kislyak, and with the Russian banker, and he's thinking that he's working on a good channel to open discussion, and they're using it as a backdoor to find out information about him, about the campaign, about things that might be able to be influenced on, or the things that Russia might be able to have influence on after he became president. Is he someone that you think may have been naive at all to that kind of work?

PARSCALE: Look, again, I can't talk about what was happening in those policy meetings or anything else. I can only tell you about the relationship I had with Jared during the campaign. And during the campaign, he was thoughtful, thorough, and did an unbelievable job to help his father-in-law get elected. I mean, he was instrumental to decisions, step-after-step, to make sure that Mr. Trump was always in the right position to do what he needed to do.

And again, I have said this multiple times, Mr. Trump might not have needed us, but for the decisions he did need, Jared Kushner was there. And he is one of those guys that thinks strongly and think about every decision we made on the campaign to make sure we did the right thing, and we did the right thing to help the president win.

MACCALLUM: I just want to put a quote up from Time Magazine, they did a story recently sort of looking into the kind of analytics and the information war that Russia's always been engaged in through the cold war, and what level they are out with it now. It says, "In 2016, Russia had used thousands of covert human agents and robot computer programs to spread disinformation referencing the stolen campaign emails of Hillary Clinton amplifying their effect of that." Knowing what you know about data, do you agree with that?

PARSCALE: Honestly, I have no clue if any of that stuff happened. I mean what all I have seen, what was being done from the Democrats' side versus our candidate, and what we did versus the other one. The noise was great, obviously. There were a lot of people out there talking about things. But that data - you know, we directly contacted the voters; we knew the contact. I didn't worry about other things like that. I had no idea about any of that. And why would we? I have no idea - how that even happened.

MACCALLUM: And it's worth pointing out that in the end, you know, information campaigns, and the name of actual voters, who we know did go to the voting booth and they did vote for Donald Trump, and they did put him over the top - especially in those places where you all did a lot of work. So, has the FBI contacted you at all to talk to you about any of this?

PARSCALE: You know this is one of the funny things: I have never been contacted by anyone. You know, everything we did was within the rules. And we've had the data come from the Republican National Committee, and we had a data team on staff to help analyze that data and determine the right content to go to the right people. That's part of a strategy. No different than the corporate world or given things to sell the right cars to the right people. We wanted to make sure that people in America saw the parts and the things that they have loved about Donald Trump to make sure they have voted for him, and that he'll be a great President for this country. And that's what we did. And that's what we continue to do, as we need to show Americans - how he's pushing, you know, America first and making this country great again.

MACCALLUM: Thanks for speaking out, Brad, very good to have you with us tonight. Thank you, we'll see you soon.

PARSCALE: Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM: So, joining us now on the other side of this - any potential offenses that Jared Kushner may be looked at in terms of all of this: Fox News senior judicial analyst, Judge Andrew Napolitano. Judge Napolitano, thank you, good to have you with us tonight.


MACCALLUM: Are you surprised, first of all, that he hasn't been contacted by the FBI, or does that make sense to you?

NAPOLITANO: Yes, I am surprised because of the FBI's pattern, you know, is to gather all the information they can and then let prosecutors decide what pieces fit a puzzle, and whether or not anybody should be charged for the crime, or whether the investigation should be dropped. And I'm sure they'll going to be knocking on his door because he knows a lot. He, perhaps like Jared witness - Jared Kushner, is just a witness, not a target.

MACCALLUM: Yes. In terms of what was going on at the time, because this is that tea leaves that people are putting together, either justifiably or not justifiably - and I want to get your opinion. So, you have the phone calls going back and forth of the Russians, you have the emails that are being released, you have investigations going on in this country that say, yes, they were absolutely trying to influence us in any way they could with flooding information, flooding our data, influencing stories about her being sick in places like - Breitbart was one of the places that are named in all of this. Any of that illegal on our side as far as you can see?

NAPOLITANO: Well, it would depend upon - you're talking about Jared, it would depend on what he said in the conversations that he had. I mean, if he was helping the Russians to interfere with the campaign, the FBI would be very - with Hillary's campaign, the FBI would be very, very interested in that. If he was having conversations with them to learn what they were up to, or after his father-in-law's victory, to begin to establish a relationship between what would become a Trump presidency and the government-

MACCALLUM: Which is what they had said so far, and that's what he would be doing.

NAPOLITANO: Right. A simple series of conversations like that, not only is not criminal, it is normal, and most President-elect has course those conversations to come about. On the other hand, if the conversation was as if he were attempting to influence the foreign policy of the country, by saying: don't do this, don't do that, because in a month and a half, a whole world is going to be different, and the Russians affected their foreign policy because of what he said to them. That would be a very serious problem that the FBI would also be looking into, because that would constitute a private citizen, Jared Kushner, influencing the foreign policy of the United States by interfering with its communications.

Barack Obama, whatever you think of him, was the valid, lawful President of the United States at that time. Talking about the time period in November, and December, and early January - the after the election and before the inauguration. The other issue that the FBI might be interested in is what Jared Kushner said to them when he received his National Security clearance. In order to get a National Security Clearance is a tremendous amount of debriefing that goes on; one for several hundred questions is: have you ever met with any agents from the following countries? Russia would be in there. If he met with Ambassador Kislyak or any others and said "no" to the FBI, that would be a very serious issue for him; lying to the FBI is a felony. All of these leaks that he said "no;" I don't know how anybody could know what he said. This - the document he filled out-

MACCALLUM: That's the only thing that matters.

NAPOLITANO: Correct! It is itself a top secret document.

MACCALLUM: All right, we will see. Thank you very much.

NAPOLITANO: You're welcome.

MACCALLUM: Judge, always good to see you. So, you are about to see some different faces at the White House. The long rumored changing of the deck chairs appears to be underway to some extent; Ed Henry is here with some inside scoop on this tonight. Breaking news when we come back: and remember Devin Nunes, who went straight to the White House to alert the president about the illegal unmasking of Trump officials. He's back in the news tonight and breaking his silence, next. And the Texas legislature, descending into a bit of chaos with lawmakers getting into a scuffle; we'll tell you what caused that when we come back.


REP. DEVIN NUNES, D-CALIFORNIA: There was a threat made from Representative Rinaldi - to put a bullet in one of my colleague's head.



MACCALLUM: So, growing signs tonight of a west wing shakeup, and some new and old names that appear to be back in the mix. First to go was Communications Director Michael Dubke, who resigned. "Who is next" - is the question that everyone wants to know. Press Secretary Sean Spicer was back at the podium today, he had this to say about the president's communications team.


SPICER: I think he is very pleased with the work of his staff. I think that he is frustrated like I am, and like so many others, to see stories come out that are patently false, to see narratives that are wrong, and to see "fake news." When you see stories get perpetrated that are absolutely false, that are not based in fact, that is troubling. And he's rightly concerned.


MACCALLUM: Chief national correspondent, Ed Henry, joins us live from the White House with some breaking details on what could be in store for the Trump team and the West Wing. They're behind you, Ed, what do you know?

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening, Martha. What is interesting is this shows President Trump has finally started moving to retool his White House staff, but there are some signs tonight - as you suggested, there could be bigger changes coming. In fact, two advisors to The president telling us that just announced yesterday, you had two former campaign advisors: Corey Lewandowski, and David Bossie, not just in the White House, but actually, in the oval office meeting with The president. This is a clear signal - these two former campaign aides are in the mix for potentially major posts inside the White House.

For now, though, the only changes you mentioned: Communications Director, Mike Dubke, out after just three months on the job. A senior advisor to the president telling me of Dubke, "He saw the handwriting on the wall and punched out before he was fired. He had enough watching potential successors paraded in front of him before he got the clue." Talk about how there have been a whole bunch of top Republicans in and out of the West Wing, potentially taking that job. For his part, Dubke sent an e-mail to friends saying, "The reasons for my departure are personal, but it has been my great honor to serve President Trump and this administration. It has also been my distinct pleasure to work side by side, day by day, with the staff of the Communications and Press Department."

Among the big questions, tonight are: what happens to the other leader of the Communications Department? You mentioned to Sean Spicer, the White House Press Secretary; a good sign for him today with the fact that he was back at the podium, even though we're hearing he's going to be taking on a lesser role in the days to come. But for Spicer and his former colleague from the Republican National Committee: Reince Priebus, who now, of course, is the Chief of Staff; a bad sign is the fact that you have Bossie and Lewandowski here. They were formal - sort of the campaign wing around the president, the campaign camp, where Spicer and Reince Priebus are from that RNC camp that was not with the president early in the campaign, obviously, because they were at the RNC, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Yes, fascinating. Ed, thank you very much.

HENRY: Good to see you.

MACCALLUM: So, joining me now: Pete Hoekstra, a former Trump Campaign National Security Advisor; and Michael Meehan, is the CEO of Squared Communications and a Democratic strategist. Mike, let me start with you. I know you have worked closely with Mike Dubke at your company, why did he leave?

MICHAEL MEEHAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND SQUARED COMMUNICATIONS CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER: Well, you know, Mike is a pro's pro; he's a long-term strategic communications thinker. And as your audience knows, this White House is on a hyper drive in terms of making news, and it's really hard to plan in an environment like this. I think what happened is that presidents come in with their campaign staff - it happened with Bill Clinton, his communications director George Stephanopoulos left after four months; it happened with Barack Obama's first one.

These are hard transitions to make from campaigning; we have a small, tight-knit group to this multi-leveled job that the one like Mike had. And you know when the president calls and asks you to take a job, Mike answer the call and did the best he could but this is a very, you know, turbulent environment that they're in right now.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Pete, there's always been, sort of, this divide between the inner circle; most of whom, is worth pointing out, did not end up with a job. Kellyanne Conway did, but many of the inner circle - when you look at Corey Lewandowski, who was pushed out early on, and David Bossie, and even, you know, the Newt Gingrich's, and Rudy Giuliani, who were very close to this thing from the very beginning - did not end up in the White House. What do you think they should do now?

PETE HOEKSTRA, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Well, I think the president, obviously, now has a better feel for this environment and for the job. And what he recognizes now is that - you know coming in: the Democrats, the media, that the swamp, they're fighting him. And they're not only fighting his agenda; the agenda appears to be clear for many of them. They not only want to stop the agenda but they want to destroy Donald Trump, personally. And so, he's going to get in place a great communications team to recognize the different shape of the challenge that's facing him today.

He also - I think now, recognizes - yes, he has to build those relationships with Congress but to get his agenda through, to get the tax cuts through, to get health care reform through, to border security, and these kinds of things. He's going to have to go to the American people, which maybe is going to require a slightly different set of skills than what he had coming into office after the inauguration. This guy is a fighter. He wants to win and he's tooling up to make sure that he is going to be successful.

MACCALLUM: There are all these stories, Mike, you know, that he's isolated, and he's concerned about what is going on. He was tweeting quite a bit earlier in the day today about his relationship with Germany and other things, but Pete Hoekstra makes a great point. I mean, wouldn't it be wise at this point to go to the Hill, or to bring legislators to the White House to put the focus on clearly - you know, when you ask people what they care about, they care about health care, they care about tax reform, and they don't care that much about this Russia thing. They know the investigation's ongoing, but they want the focus to be on their business.

MEEHAN: Yes - No, no, there's no question. And clearly, even though I disagreed with the outcome of the House Republican vote on health care, he clearly engaged in that level and managed to get the votes that he needs to get. So, clearly, he had success in doing this. So, it would be important, given that the margins in the Senate are only two votes, there are opportunities to work there - if he chooses to do that. The man makes tons of deals; he's really good at putting a deal together.

There are deals to be put together that advance to some of these important things, but you do have to roll up your sleeves, and sit down, and work across the aisle. Because the only lasting legislation that ever really matters is one: to have a bipartisan support and that's why you think you see the trouble that he's having on the filibuster. McConnell wants 60 because if you really want things to last, you do need to get to 60.

MACCALLUM: Yes. We're going to get into that with Mike Lee in just a minute. But you know, just in terms of that outward voice, Pete Hoekstra, is there anybody that you would like to see in front of that podium or being more, sort of, forward in the communications effort, to articulate what the president wants to do? I mean, some people say he's the only person who can only do that.

HOEKSTRA: You know, there are lots of good folks that are out there. I think Sean Spicer does OK. Sarah Huckabee Sanders has done - you know, she's done a very good job in that space. There have been other people that have been - you know, talked about going into that. The - I don't think it's going to be a single person. It's going to be a number of people who are unified and caring that message out. And really, what they're doing is they're amplifying the president's voice. What we've seen here in the first four months and in the campaign - the most effective communicator is Donald Trump.

MACCALLUM: And word is, we're going to see more of him and less of anybody at the podium. So, we'll see. Thank you very much, guys, good to see you both.

MEEHAN: Thank you.


MACCALLUM: So, coming up, Congress Devin Nunes was a lightning rod in the early days of the Russia investigation. He then, turned it over to Trey Gowdy and company, but there is something alarming that he wants people to know about ongoing surveillance in this country; Senator Mike Lee joins us on that. Plus, a new fallout from the stabbing attack that killed two in Portland over the weekend. Is the Mayor's reaction compounding the problem? A first amendment showdown straight ahead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were attacked viciously by the suspect. These were folks just riding the train. And unfortunately, got caught up in this.



MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, alarming new reports on the size and scope of the Obama administration's surveillance of the American people, including President Trump and his transition team. In this newly surfaced video, House Intelligence Committee Chair, Devin Nunes, who stepped down from the House Russia investigation last month amid controversy, is seen speaking openly about what he uncovered in his probe. It's very interesting, watch.


NUNES: I went and looked at what I knew existed on the unmasking, but what I found was a treasure trove of stuff that's really bad in terms of surveillance on Americans. It is really horrible because it endangers America. It's really horrible because it endangers America, because the work that our intelligence professionals do is so critical to our safety, to have an administration, a part administration, abuse these powers and put our country in jeopardy. There are no words that can explain the damage that they've done and the damage that they've created.


MACCALLUM: That's clearly stunning. Here now to weigh in: Utah Senator, Mike Lee, the author of a new book, "Written out of History: The Forgotten Founders Who Fought Big Government," and because of that, we could talk to him here in New York. It's good to see you, Senator.

SEN. MIKE LEE, R-UTAH: Good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Thank you for coming by. What strikes you in Devin Nunes' words? Because I know this is something that you've been concerned about a long time.

LEE: This is what governments do when they are left unrestrained, it's one of the reasons I wrote this book, "Written out of History." I'll talk about James Otis, among other forgotten founders, who was a big believer in the fact that governments will intrude into a man's house, into a man's privacy, unless they're specifically restricted from doing so. It's one of the reasons why we need the Fourth Amendment, to tell the government that it can't do...

MACCALLUM: ...unlawful search and seizure.

LEE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Let's put this up on the screen because this is the FISA Court recently scolding the Former Obama Administration. They said the Court ascribed the government's failure to disclose those reviews to an institutional lack of candor, on NSA's part and emphasized that, "this is a very serious Fourth Amendment issue". So, people look at this and they think about, you know, the unmasking and Mike Flynn and everything, but what does it mean to the normal, average person?

LEE: What it means is that the government can use the overwhelming force and power of government to engage in political espionage, to engage in all kinds of manipulation order to...

MACCALLUM: Michael Isaotiara (ph) as for example.

LEE: Like that and worse. You know, there was this committee back in the '70s called the Church Committee, looked into abuses like this. It concluded that every presidential administration, starting with FDR all the way at least for Nixon, had used intelligence gathering agencies within the government to engage in political espionage. This is human nature. This is why we need a constitution. This is why we need limits on government.

MACCALLUM: Let me put up something that deal with legislation here because this is President Trump this morning talking about healthcare and tax reform, which we were just talking about I think a lot of people who voted for him would like him to get back to this business. The U.S. Senate should switch to 51 votes immediately and get healthcare and tax cuts approved fast and easy. DEMS would do it, no doubt. What do you think?

LEE: OK, so first of all, we have procedures in the Senate that allow us to pass certain bills without having to have 60 votes for closure. And two of those things happened to be ObamaCare repeal and tax reform. So, in this instance, we don't even need to go to that discussion. I have great concerns about getting rid of the Filibuster Rule for other reasons.

We would have had single care healthcare for now with that. We would have had card check. We would have had all kinds of things that are bad for Conservatives, bad for Republicans, bad for a lot of the things that Donald Trump stands for if we have gotten rid of the Filibuster Rule, but, here we can repeal ObamaCare and we can do tax reform all about...

MACCALLUM: But, can't replace it?

LEE: Well, depends on what we get to replace it, but we can repeal it and we can replace with a lot of things. It's not a matter of whether we can do it. It's a matter of how we write it. There are ways to get this done with 51 votes. We don't have to go nuclear and boo. If we do go nuclear, we preserve in the Senate a lot of things that will protect limited government. We will protect the constitution.

MACCALLUM: Yes, so that will be under reconciliation, it's a budget vehicle...

LEE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: ...essentially, that proves that you're not to going to add to the debt dramatically over a certain period of time, 10 years, I think, it is that allows you to pass it that way. So, obviously the president is on-board, he'd like to see that. I want to play this from Ben Sasse and get your reaction because I -- here's what he says about the future of the GOP.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you said, you think that the Republican Party and the Democratic Party both are intellectually exhausted? What does the Republican Party stands for at this point anymore?

SEN. BEN SASSE, R-KANSAS: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't that the problem?

SASSE: Big problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anybody...


MACCALLUM: That surprises you?

LEE: It is a big problem in the sense that anytime, anyone especially one of our Republican Senators can't identify exactly what the Republican Party stands for, we've got a problem. Now, look what I believe it stands for is constitutionally limited government. What I believe it stands for are free markets. Not for the purpose of limiting government, just with that as the goal, but with the purpose of having stronger families, stronger individuals, so that individuals can try big...

MACCALLUM: Do you feel that the president represents that?

LEE: Yes and I think he was elected with a mandate to fight for America's hard-working families. So that America's hard-working families and middle-class can expand, can grow, can achieve. That's what we've always wanted for our people. But, government, especially a big, ever growing federal government, makes that difficult.

MACCALLUM: And didn't some of the founders, who we don't think about that often, say exactly that?

LEE: They did.


LEE: In fact, that's exactly is why I've written this book, "Written Out Of History."


LEE: Because a lot of our founding fathers weren't as well-known and some of them have been neglected even deliberately written out, because their stories, their demographics aren't convenient. They don't fit within the modern progressive narrative of a big Federal Government.

MACCALLUM: Give us one quick name before we go.

LEE: Ma'am Beth (ph).

MACCALLUM: I don't know about it.

LEE: She was a slave in Massachusetts and she was a fighter. She was tenacious. She understood that if all human beings are created equally, and are free and equal in the eyes of God, as they were determined to be by the Massachusetts Constitution written by John Adams, that she should be free. So, she sued for her freedom and she achieved it. She won. She's a hero but she's been forgotten.

MACCALLUM: "Written Out Of History" by Mike Lee. Senator, thank you.

LEE: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you in New York. Good luck with the book.

LEE: Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM: Thanks for stopping by. So coming up here still ahead, the U.S. Military sending a message to our enemies tonight and what is being called the trial run for North Korean attack. God forbid on the United States. Details of the test that just happened coming up.

But first, let's play a game. Which one of these crazy scenes is some uncivilized country in which one is happening right here in our increasingly uncivilized country? The answer when we come back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you say things to incite people?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, and that's exactly what I do.



MACCALLUM: A slow boil in Texas over the new sanctuary city's aw bubbling over at the state capital in Texas. It began with hundreds of protesters packed in to the rafters. They object to Governor Greg Abbott's new, no sanctuary city's law protects us, so they had to stop the session. Police came in and cleared out the demonstrators. Drama did not end there, though. A Republican lawmaker said that he called I.C.E. to report some of those protesters, those comments throwing Democrats into a rage and setting up this ugly chain of events, watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He walked by -- walk back and told us, I called I.C.E. and we both what? What do you mean, you did what? He said, "Yeah, I called I.C.E." And then he said, F them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you say things to incite people?

MATT RINALDI, IRVING LEGISLATOR, REPUBLICAN MEMBER: Correct. OK, and that's exactly what I do.


MACCALLUM: That's exactly what I did. Here's now Dana Loesch, host of "Dana" on the Blaze TV and Robert Zimmerman, Democratic Strategist and DNC Committee Member. You know, I remember when we use to just show scenes from South Korea and sometimes Eastern European...


MACCALLUM: ...countries where legislators were brawling and we would sort of look at it kind of like oh, well, that doesn't happen here. And now, apparently it does Dana or something close.

DANA LOESCH, HOST OF "DANA" ON THE BLAZE TV: Well, Martha and - yes, thanks for having me. A couple of things to note about this as well, Matt Rinaldi, who I'm coming to you from Irving, Texas and that this is Matt Rinaldi's area and in the - in the capitol building there are numerous videos that are on a bunch of different websites showing some protesters bragging about immigration status, some were bragging about being there illegally.

When you see someone who is in violation of the law or at least going to brag about it, you know, hazard of bragging about being in violation of the laws that you could have law enforcement called on you and that's when Rinaldi said that he had called I.C.E. and that was it because they had been trying to drown out lawmakers. They were being disruptive to the process in Austin. And of course, that's you know, people are there to get business done.


LOESCH: And so...


LOESCH: ...when you - when you're doing that in the chamber, yes, you're being escorted out. But don't brag about breaking the law and then not expect...


MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean that's not too smart, Robert.

ZIMMERMAN: Actually, Martha the people in the - the people in the gallery who were protesting proved to be much better American Citizens than certainly Legislator Rinaldi did and his colleagues who threatened violence against each other.

MACCALLUM: No, no excuse me, Robert...


MACCALLUM: Let him get his point out, go ahead - go ahead, Robert.

ZIMMERMAN: Excuse me. I mean, seriously, Dana. The reality...

LOESCH: I'm sorry, Bobby.

ZIMMERMAN: Ok, that's better. The reality here is that those protesters out there were exercising their constitutionally protected rights. There's 130 years of constitutional legal precedents that defends the right of the individuals be they American Citizens, be they undocumented Americans to actually exercise the bill of rights, they're protected under the 14th Amendment and they really showed they were truly great Americans...

LOESCH: Yes, but here's...

ZIMMERMAN: ...versus people who were sitting at home...


MACCALLUM: I don't know, I mean are they here illegally or are they great Americans, Dana?


ZIMMERMAN: They are great Americans.

LOESCH: Yes. Bob, I let you finished. Now, you need to let me finish.


MACCALLUM: All right, go ahead.

ZIMMERMAN: Go ahead, Dana.

MACCALLUM: Dana is up.

LOESCH: First off - first off, Nevarez -- Representative Nevarez, actually did physically put his hands on Representative Rinaldi who was captured by several different video angles and he admitted to BuzzFeed that he actually did push him. That's considered simple battery at the very least.

So, no that's never -- to have someone hot-headed like that in the state capital is never good and I think Nevarez needs to apologize for assaulting or committing battery against another lawmaker. That's never acceptable.

Furthermore, that also doesn't demonstrate what Bob was just discussing in terms of practicing and demonstrating good citizenship nor is it a good example for other Texans to be putting your hands on another lawmaker because you're hot-tempered.

ZIMMERMAN: That's not what I said.

LOESCH: I think that there should be some public center for that. Now, as far as the protesters go, again this goes back to don't brag about being in the country illegally and then be surprised if somebody says that they're going to call I.C.E.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean that's just - Robert...

ZIMMERMAN: Dana - Dana, you're changing the topic.

MACCALLUM: ...but that - no, but there is a question of the in-your-face illegality of standing there sort of nah, nah, nah saying...


MACCALLUM: ...I'm here illegally, but what are you going to do about it? So, then he says, you know what, I'm going to call I.C.E.


MACCALLUM: ...that's what I'm going to do about it.

ZIMMERMAN: ...the courts have ruled, Martha and what you can do illegally if somewhat -- when you're engaging in free speech or exercising your constitutional right...

MACCALLUM: Even if you're not - if you're an illegal citizen, you're not...


MACCALLUM: ...even legally in the country, you're not a citizen?

ZIMMERMAN: ...Martha, there's 130 years of constitutional judicial precedent that defends the right of individuals whether they be citizens...

LOESCH: A citizens, yes.

ZIMMERMAN: ...or whether it'd be undocumented to exercise their due - they have right of due process...

LOESCH: To protest.

ZIMMERMAN: ...and also to be able to exercise their rights under the bill of rights.

MACCALLUM: To protest but not to stop legislative action from happening...


MACCALLUM: ...go ahead, Dana.

LOESCH: I'll bring up another quick point. One of the things that this sanctuary city build that Greg Abbott signed is supposed to - it's supposed to protect us Texans against those who would break the law. For instance in Travis County, with Sheriff Sally Hernandez who's very much politicized this, I just want to point everyone out to the fact that her office actually refused an I.C.E. detainer for an accused child molester who had been accused of long-standing sexual molestation of a young girl and Sally Hernandez did not consider molestation of a child to be one of the...

MACCALLUM: That's unquestionable (ph).


ZIMMERMAN: You're changing the topic.

MACCALLUM: ...we got to leave it there, I got to go. Dana and Robert, thank you, guys. We got to go.

LOESCH: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: All right, so the City of Portland rattled after a known white supremacist allegedly stabbed and killed two innocent people on a train. But now, the mayor's response to potentially shut down speech has people concerned that he is making this issue worse. We debate next.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have the First Amendment right to speak, but my pushback on that is that hate speech is not protected.



MACCALLUM: We are back and developing tonight, the Mayor of Portland trying to shut down so-called free-speech events after self-described white supremacist killed two men and badly injured a third at the beginning of the weekend. Here is new video of the suspect as he went to court today. His name is Jeremy Joseph Christian. He is accused of aggravated murder and a host of other charges. Trace Gallagher joins us with the background in Los Angeles. Hi, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, TELEVISION NEWS ANCHOR: Martha, well Portland homicide detectives continue scouring Jeremy Christian's background, motive, and social media footprint. We got a first look at Christian's erratic behavior in court today. Watch this.


JEREMY JOSEPH CHRISTIAN, PORTLAN STABBING SUSPECT: Free-speech for God, Portland. You've got no safe place. This is America. Get out if you don't like free-speech. That's with the enemies of America. Leave this country. You ain't our freedom. You call it terrorism, I call it patriotism. Do you hear me, God?


GALLAGHER: Last Friday, on-board to Portland train, that same type of verbal assault was apparently being directed at two Muslim women including one wearing a hijab. Witnesses say when three men tried to calm the suspect and shield the women, Jeremy Christian fatally stabbed two of the men and injured a third.

Back in April, Christian was photographed at a free-speech marching Portland wearing an American flag shouting racial slurs and giving a Nazi salute. And here's an event organizer who also came in contact with Christian. Listen to him.


JOEY GIBSON, PROTEST ORGANIZER: Insane guy, like insane and he was there to cause - promise, he was there to cause trouble. And we kicked him out like we didn't want him there. We marched with him for a little bit but the police warned us they said, "You gotta be careful of the sky. He's a dangerous guy."

GALLAGHER: Jeremy Christian also shared white supremacist views used on Facebook and posted a death threat about Hillary Clinton. On top of that, he's been convicted for robbery and kidnapping.

Meantime, in an effort to ease white supremacist activity, Portland Mayor, Ted Wheeler wants Federal Authorities to cancel two upcoming protests including an anti-Islam march saying and I'm quoting, "Our city is in mourning, our community's anger is real, and the timing and subject of these events can only exacerbate an already difficult situation."

But the ACLU is now fighting back saying, if the government is allowed to shut down free-speech, we'll all pay the price down the line, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you. So, here now, Mollie Hemingway, senior editor at The Federalist and Julie Roginsky, Democratic analyst; both are Fox News contributors. Good to see you both tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great to see you.

MACCALLUM: Mollie, let me start with you, what's your reaction to the story?

MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, THE FEDERALIST, SENIOR EDITOR: This is just the worst reaction you can have to the violence of what happened in Portland is to shut down free-speech event. The mayor has absolutely no authority to do this and it's just not healthy or wise. Also, Portland has a long history of tolerating rather extreme rhetoric from people on the other side of the aisle.

They posted violent world-trade organization protest. They had one of the more notorious occupied camps. And they even recently tolerated the Antifa - Antifa-anti-Trump protest some of which got violent, so this idea that you would shut down this just doesn't any make sense by Portland zone standards.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Julie is this fair to group this man, this alleged killer, whose behavior no one condones, with this organization that wants to march and, you know, like any organization has the right to march and peacefully protest?

JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC ANALYST: Listen, what this organization stands for is deplorable and certainly what this man has allegedly done is beyond deplorable, so the organization has the right to march. I supported Neo-Nazis marching in Skokie back in the '70s when this is a huge controversy. Certainly, the Ku Klux Klan has marched and has gotten permits to march and I support that as well, though I don't agree with anything that they have for.

With that phrase, I may not agree with what you're saying but I'll defend to the right - to the death your right to say it. That's what we stand for. That's what the First Amendment stands for and no government entity has the right to tell people what to believe and what to say in marching. If you have a permit to march, it's part of that First Amendment right that we all enjoy regardless of whether you agree with our views or not.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Free speech is protected, even if it's hate speech which none of us like to witness, but it also embody something that we all hold very dear, which is people's right to speak their mind, Mollie as long as they do it peacefully.

HEMINGWAY: Right. And if people are worried about authoritarian tendencies having the mayor or a government official claimed that there's no constitutional right...


HEMINGWAY: certain kinds of speech just because he opposes the viewpoint of that speech, when that is dangerous rhetoric and something that he should know better and you initially said he just thought it would give better idea if these rallies didn't happen which might be true. But to then go on and say that it's actually - that there is no constitutional...


HEMINGWAY: ...right to the speech, I mean that's...

MACCALLUM: Misguided and wrong and bizarre. You would expect something more authentic and more factual coming out of the mouths of the Mayor of Portland. Speaking of hate speech though, I want to show everyone - I have to warn you because this is so vulgar and so -- vulgar is really the best word for it.

Kathy Griffin, who is supposed to be a comedian, was in a photography shoot and put this picture up of her holding a masked bloody head depicting Donald Trump. So, we're going to put it down but we want to show you it because it - that's what she put up there.

Julie, I mean, how - you know, in a conversation involving hate speech and what's vulgar and what is wrong, how did she -- how can she in good conscience do this?

ROGINSKY: Well, again, I certainly find this photograph deplorable and don't condone it at all. But, if we're talking about free speech and the right to say it, she has as much right to pose with that shot as others as Ted Nugent has to say deplorable things about Hillary Clinton as others had the right to say what they say. Again, this is all about free speech. You don't have to condone the speech in order to believe that she has the right to do what she did.

MACCALLUM: Quick stop, Mollie and we got to go.

HEMINGWAY: It's also true that there should be consequences for this type of violent imagery and I think people who employ Kathy Griffin should be asked if she continues to work for them such as hosting...


HEMINGWAY: ...the New Year's Eve special at CNN or Al Franken is doing an event with her next week, he should be asked whether he thinks that's appropriate as well. Consistency is key.

MACCALLUM: Thank you both. Good to see you.

ROGINSKY: Thanks very much.

MACCALLUM: So, coming up next, the message that our military just sent to the North Koreans and some final thought tonight from Alexander Hamilton on Defense.


MACCALLUM: So, today, a show of force from the United States is putting our enemies unnoticed. The U.S. Military successfully shot down a mock warhead over the pacific that is similar to the type of intercontinental missile that North Korea is working on. Obviously, that sends a strong signal.

The project was long and the works to boost to our defenses in a significant way comes perhaps in the nick of time which brings us to our quote of the night from Alexander Hamilton.

"Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct, even the ardent love of liberty will over time give way to its dictate."

We want to hear from you. Tweet us @TheStoryFNC, use in #TheStory. We'll see you back here tomorrow night at 7:00. Word just in that Kathy Griffin has apologized. More coming up after this. Tucker is up next.


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