This is a rush transcript from "The Story," September 15, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, "THE STORY" HOST: Breaking right now, there's high tension and some pushing and shoving, that kind of thing on the streets of St. Louis right now. This comes just hours after a judge acquitted a white ex-police officer in the deadly shooting of a black man. The police declaring about 30 minutes ago "this protest, is no longer considered peaceful." Demonstrators are asked to leave the area. Mike Tobin, joins me now live. He is on the ground, there in St. Louis this evening with this story. Hi, Mike.
MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. It looks like this one is dissipating at the moment. You can you see the police line; they've just backed all the way up across Clark Street. And can you see the building there next to right now is the police headquarters itself? There was a bit of a dust-up earlier. I can show you some. This is a piece of concrete that the demonstrators were using to flake off pieces of it, turn that into the rocks and they threw that at the police. Some bottles, mostly plastic bottles, I didn't see any glass bottles that went out.
Now, to show you the demonstrators. You've got a few still milling around in the middle of the street. Most of them have gone about a quarter mile down the road. Now, the dust-up started about an hour ago when the demonstrators came and mass up the street. They went in front of police headquarters. And you've got some tape of this. They climbed aboard on one of the police SUVs, started jumping up and down. In the end, the windshield was broken out of the police SUV. And ultimately, the police came with a little bit more force. We saw the cops with the riot gear and pepper spray came out. A few bits of pushing and shoving melees.
And again, you had the rocks and bottles going out. Pepper spray came out. If you look at some the demonstrators, you'll see them now with white on their faces. I'll point them out when they come out, and that he was because -- we see them. And that's because after they get pepper sprayed they believe they can minimize the sting of that pepper spray by putting a combination milk and Maalox over their faces. So, at the moment, it looks like this situation is diffusing, but a lot of intel that there's going to be a lot throughout the night, Martha.
MACCALLUM: All right. We hope it stays that way, calmer. Thank you very much, Mike. Good to see you tonight. So good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and "The Story" continues tonight with this. When a bomb in a subway in London explodes at rush hour, injuring 29 people, most with burns, others with broken bones from being trampled and it becomes just another news story of the day. It is clear that what's been called the new normal is anything but.
Prime Minister, Theresa May, is now a seasoned leader when it comes to this. It is the fifth terror attack on her watch in the United Kingdom this year, including these horrific scenes that we all remember too well from Manchester and from Westminster Bridge. She has raised her country's terror alert once again to the highest level; it is now at critical, which means the authority there believed that another attack in London could be imminent. May knows that this attack is not just a crime. It is a kind of cancer in the bloodstream and it needs to be eradicated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, PRIME MINISTER OF LONDON: We do need to ensure that we're dealing with not just the terrorist threat but with the extremism and the hate that can actually insight that terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, President Trump, addressing the air force today on their anniversary said this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America and our allies will never be intimidated. We will defend our people, our nation and our civilization from all who dare to threaten our way of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Here now, Texas Congressman Mike McCaul, Chairman of the Homeland Security Committee. Good to see you, Chairman. Thanks for joining us tonight.
REP. MIKE MCCAUL, R-TEXAS: Thank you, Martha. Thanks for having.
MACCALLUM: Your thoughts on what we saw this morning in London.
MCCAUL: Well, like you said, it's almost becoming the new norm, and it shouldn't be. These things happen so often. It's the fifth attack in the U.K. alone this year. We've had 110 ISIS-related plots and incidents in Europe since 2013. I think it's, actually, TATP was the explosive used in this case. The same one used in Manchester, Paris, and Brussels. The Islamic State did take credit for this, saying the soldiers of the caliphate attack crusaders, detonating bombs. They are clearly ramping up their activities now as we squeeze the caliphate in Iraq and Syria. We're seeing these foreign fighters returning along with this massive migration into Europe. And I think Europe is a very vulnerable spot right now.
MACCALLUM: Yes, it certainly seems to be. Let's pull up the second tweet that we have on our list from President Trump today. He was speaking out quite a bit about this. He says loser terrorists must be dealt with in a much tougher manner. The Internet is their main recruitment tool which we must cut off and use better. He went on to say: "The travel ban into the United States should be far larger and more specific -- but stupidly, that would be -- that would not be politically correct." What do u think about those?
MCCAUL: Well, you know, the New York Police Department calls it losers to lions. This is a radicalization process. So, the president really is on to something here when he talks about losers to lions. He also is on something when he -- I agree with his assessment of the Internet. These guys, unlike al-Qaeda, ISIS really use the Internet to recruit, train and radicalized from within. We need to stop this Jihadist material on the Internet that they have used so well. And I think in terms of the travel ban, I've always said we need to ramp up our vetting in high-threat areas to make sure that these terrorists, while they are going to Europe, they are one flight away from the United States, and we don't want them coming into the homeland.
MACCALLUM: Yes. You know, in terms the travel ban, do you think that the White House will get what it wants on that front? Clearly, the president, based on, you know, these statements and others, wants it to be, you know, really tougher rather than looser.
MCCAUL: I think, you know, the initial implementation had some, you know, errors if you will. I think the administration fixed that in terms of people that are legally entitled to be in the United States. So, I think that will be -- before the Supreme Court, and the executive and chief, the commander-in-chief, has enormous powers under the Constitution, I think, when it comes to immigration and denying terrorists a safe haven both abroad and in the United States. So, my committee, we also have a visa security bill to put ICE agents in embassies and consulate offices in these high-threat areas so we can do better vetting over there to ensure they don't come here.
MACCALLUM: Obviously, you're very deeply involved in this topic of homeland security. There's some discussion that you might be the person to take over for General John Kelly who, of course, is now the chief of staff at the White House. Is that a position that you're interested in or one that you think will become yours?
MCCAUL: Well, this is really the president's decision. And you know, wherever I can serve my country the best, I do have, I think, a strong background in homeland security and national security issues. And wherever I can best serve my country, that's where I want to be. And ultimately, the president will decide that.
MACCALLUM: All right. We'll keep an eye on that development. Chairman McCaul, always a pleasure to talk to you, sir. Thank you very much.
MCCAUL: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, also, today at the White House, Ambassador Nikki Haley and National Security Advisor Henry McMaster were at the podium to respond to the North Korea threat. Last night's missile was faster and it went further than the last.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H.R. MCMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: This is not an issue between the United States and North Korea. This is an issue between the world and North Korea.
NIKKI HALEY, UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: What we are seeing is they continue to be provocative. They continue to be reckless. And, at that point, you know, there's not a whole lot the Security Council is going to be able to do from here when you've cut 90 percent of the trade and 30 percent of the oil. So, having said that, I have no problem kicking it to General Mattis because I think he has plenty of options.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Here now, Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer, a CIA Trained Intel Operative and Senior Fellow at the London Center for Policy Research, during the time at the CIA, he ran operations in North Korea; and retired Brigadier General Anthony Tata, author of "Besieged." Good to see both of you have, gentlemen, tonight. And I thought it was very interesting, watching Henry McMaster and Nikki Haley today. Tony, let me start with you on this.
LT. COL. TONY SHAFFER, CIA TRAINED INTEL OPERATIVE AND SENIOR FELLOW AT THE LONDON CENTER FOR POLICY RESEARCH: Sure.
MACCALLUM: You know, at one point, as we just saw, she said, you know, I have no problem kicking this over to General Mattis.
MACCALLUM: Meaning, you know, the Department of Defense can pick up if the diplomacy avenue becomes extinct.
SHAFFER: Right. Well, it's the truth. It's the bottom line. And as H.R. McMaster also said during the discussion today, we're out of road to kick the can down. This neglect has been made worse by administration after administration, essentially appeasing the North Koreans. And so, that's why you see this behavior now. I don't believe for a minute they're going to hit anything regarding Guam or the West Coast. I think it's all about them trying to push harder for appeasement for something from us. And this is where we need to depart, again, from the past tradition. We do have the military options, no doubt. But we have to hold accountable, Martha -- those nations which have been most pervasive and most effective in allowing the North Koreans to obtain the weapons, both the nuclear weapons, hydrogen bomb and delivery systems, and that is the Chinese. They are the ones holding the bag. I think we needed to look at economic sanctions against them and the Russians because of the Russians involvement, and also the Iranians -- there's been several credible reports talking about the Iranians essentially outsourcing their nuclear program, their ballistic missile program to the North Koreans paying for. So, this is something we have to look at next.
MACCALLUM: Yes. General Tata, it's clear that the administration is not tying away from very strong language on this. And as Nikki Haley, the Ambassador to the U.N., said today, you know, we've put some pretty serious sanctions down and this is just the beginning, we will keep ramping them up. But you do need China's cooperation if you're going to get to a point where you're really going to put the squeeze on North Korea here?
ANTHONY TATA, RETIRED BRIGADIER GENERAL AND AUTHOR: You're right, Martha. And I think the thing you said earlier that this missile went further and higher than previous missiles, I think what we're seeing is an exponential acceleration of North Korea's nuclear program. They're testing more frequently both the missiles and the bombs and they have the capability. And so, as this thing begins to hockey stick up, we've got to ask ourselves a question: would we rather fight them now or we rather fight them later? And right now, we have the capability. Yes, nobody wants a war on the Korean Peninsula.
But, at the same time, if we're employing our economic element of power, our diplomatic element of power, an informational element of power, and it's not getting the job done, then what we need to do is begin a noncombatant evacuation from South Korea, the Republic of Korea. And then, we need to begin to move rapid reaction forces like the 18th Airborne Corps, like the marine expeditionary force and air wing and begin to position them in the western Pacific so that there are teeth behind what we're saying. Because right now, what we have in place are forces that are pretty much already there. And we're saying these bellicose things, and I believe that we mean them.
MACCALLUM: You'd like to see the actual hardware in place to back that up?
TATA: Yes. I mean, if you get the 82nd airborne moving somewhere, it usually gets people's attention.
MACCALLUM: Yes, it does. The president, sort of, alluded to that today. He was talking to the air force about how it feels when you're on the ground and you start to see planes fly overhead. I'm out pretty much out of time but just quick a final thought, Tony?
SHAFFER: Well, look, as the general said, you've got to use the full spectrum of things, capabilities before we go to the military option. With that said, we've trained for the military option since, you know, the end of the Korean War, and it's still on the table. I disagree with Mr. Bannon when he said there's no military option.
SHAFFER: What he should've said is the military option is the last resort but is viable and we're the best suited to carry it out if necessary.
MACCALLUM: Gentlemen, thank you. Great to see you both tonight.
SHAFFER: Great to see you. Thank you.
TATA: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, the White House, responding to the onslaught of criticism from some Republicans over the outlines of a deal to allow some illegal immigrants to stay in this country. One of the loudest voices on this is Congressman Steve King. He's here next to speak his mind. Then Karl Rove on whether or not the president can pull this gamble off. And the Antifa tried to shut him down, but Conservative Commentator Ben Shapiro would not be silenced. He is here next on how everything went last night with the speech in Berkeley that racked up more than a half of million dollars in security costs when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: I've been spending my entire career standing up against fascism, and the idea of an overreaching government that uses the power of the gun in order to compel people to do what they want. Antifa is fascist. I am not a fascist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you say, Mr. President, to Steve King who says that your promises can't be believed, and what do you say Senator Charles Grassley who said you undercut what he's doing and the Judiciary Committee by talking to Pelosi and Schumer?
TRUMP: You know, what we're doing is we're doing it a conjunction with the Republicans. We have a very, very good relationship with a lot of people. A lot of people want this to happen. They said if we don't have the wall we're doing nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, that was President Trump yesterday after a rush of criticism from some in his own party, including our next guest. Immigration hardliners are outraged about the DACA deal that was made with Democrat Leaders Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. So, an hour ago, and perhaps in an effort to bring some of those very critics back in the fold, White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said that this deal would only happen if there were major concessions from the Democrats. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president supports the DACA program and supporting making a deal on that, but, again, that has to include that massive border security. The specific things that we probably like to see an end to sanctuary cities, expedited removal, more immigration judges, supporting things like the Race Act. Those are things that you'll see us focus on and talk more about in the coming days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: All right. So, do we have a deal? One of those Republicans a critic of the president, Iowa Congressman Steve King. Congressman, good evening. Good to see you tonight.
REP. STEVE KING, R-IOWA: Good evening, Martha. I'm just kind of happy to hear Sarah's voice on some of that.
MACCALLUM: So, that's my first question then. You know, is that enough? Is the deal that she presented, something that can you live with?
KING: Oh, no. But it helps, it helps when she's weighing in on this part and saying there are a lot of things that the president would like to get. I don't know that that ever gets me to amnesty, but it may get others there. And so -- and I understand the president, I believe on this. I mean, his heart kind of overruled his campaign promises and he served up DACA to Congress and threw it out and said, well, I'm going to keep my campaign promise this way -- eight months late with a six-month delay.
And then, Congress, it's the equivalent of throwing DACA into Congress to try to write a bill that satisfies the president is equivalent to throwing a cat into the kennel and let the dogs turn them loose. We've been through this immigration debate multiple times, 86 under Reagan, 2005 through 2000, and actually eight under George W. Bush, and again in 2013 under Barack Obama. And each time the thing that killed it all off was amnesty, rewarding lawbreakers.
MACCALLUM: Right. So, that -- so some would say that, that left with us no productive movement forward in terms of dealing with immigration in this country. Let's put up a Marist Poll that the question is: do you favor or oppose Congress providing a way for undocumented immigrants who are currently in the U.S. to gain legal citizenship if they learn English, pay fines, and have a job that pays taxes. Conservatives 72 percent say, yes, they're in favor of that.
KING: You know, when I hear that Martha, I heard the tease that Karl Rove is coming on. He and I had a discussion on this January 5th of 2004, it was the same argument then. And he tried to argue it wasn't amnestied if they pay a fine, pay taxes, and learn English -- that's an old argument and it's failed before the American people. I say get right with the law. Follow the law. That really means this that go home and apply the legal way but get to the back of the line. That's some other things that Karl and the Bush administration and many Republicans have said for more than a decade: get right with the law.
MACCALLUM: Let me ask you this, then. So, specifically, you know, right, what would you do with these 800,000 individuals, many of whom are in school, they were brought here when they were little kids, you know, through no fault of their own, as we've heard many times. What would you, Steve King, do with those 800,000 people tomorrow?
KING: OK. Well, we can't deal with it tomorrow and we haven't dealt with it any day prior to this and it gets worse every day. The only way that you stop this is you stop the illegal entries and you stop the overstays. And if we get there we're restoring the respect for the rule of law, that's three to five years under an effective president and administration. Then, you look at the people that are here in the shadows, and then you have the debate -- that's the right way to do this. The other side of this, we can have the rule of law.
MACCALLUM: Isn't that what we're doing over the next six months in terms of having the debate about the people who are in the shadows as you say?
KING: No. No, this debate that's been ensued, it starts with amnesty. That's been the mistakes every time to lead with amnesty. You have to demonstrate border security and the restoration of the rule of law. When do you that, it's not going to happen overnight --
MACCALLUM: That sounds to me like what the president is asking for here. Tell me why it isn't.
KING: Well, if it is, I hope we have the votes in Congress to pass that, and then we can --
MACCALLUM: Increase border security. He's already said he wants to throw out any criminal illegal aliens. You know, obviously, the crime being the second one after coming here illegally, and to begin the process of dealing with the people who are "in the shadows" and coming up with DACA over the next six months.
KING: But it's not what I've said. What I've said is we can't just promise we're going to enforce the law. That was the promise under Reagan's '86 Act. It was the promise that caused the Bush amnesty to fail and Obama amnesty to fail. And by the way, that was the promise that Bush 41th took. We'll get tax cuts, we'll get spending cuts later if I will give you a tax increase today. That never happens. You have to get those things that are conservative first before you can take up the other part of this or it will fail and we'll see more and more illegals and we'll see not amnesty 1.0 and never again because that was the promise of 1986. We'll see DACA 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, it will never, never end unless we have --
MACCALLUM: That's a valid point. I mean, it has to have some sort of end because there has to be a border that is observed at some point in the process, so I hear what you're saying.
KING: And the law, respected it, Martha.
MACCALLUM: All right. The 800,000, you would leave them here for right now and would try to work that out, is that right?
KING: Yes. I'd say, they came here to live in the shadows. That was the objective of the crime in the first place, was to live in the shadows. So, it's not inhuman to allow that to continue until we restore the respect for the rule of law in America.
MACCALLUM: Steve King, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight, sir.
KING: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, herewith is the aforementioned Karl Rove, former Senior Advisor to President George W. Bush and a Fox News Political Contributor. Karl, you were listening to the conversation. What do you think?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR AND FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, Congressman King is if anything consistent, and that is to abuse the word amnesty. Amnesty is the forgiveness of a fault without any penalty. And think about that question that you asked, Martha, it said undocumented immigrants gain citizenship if they learn English, pay a fine, have jobs and pay taxes. It strikes me there are at least several requirements and a couple of fines and penalties in there. And you're right, among all Republicans 69/27, among independents 83-14; among moderates 83-13, and among conservatives and very conservatives 70-26.
So, the American people are a fair-minded group of people. And if you say these kids, who were brought here at the age -- an average of 6 and a half years old -- who are hereby no fault of their own, who only know one country, the United States of America, who are now becoming adults, should be allowed to have a path to legal citizenship if they kept their nose clean, serve in the military, get good grades in school, have a job, pay taxes and haven't committed crimes. They ought to be able to earn their citizenship in the United States. The American people believe that overwhelmingly. If Congressman King had the courage of his convictions, he ought to sponsor a bill that says our objective is to remove every one of those people out of the country now because they have violated our laws. If he believes that let him bring it up, get a piece of legislation or resolution in Congress and get co-sponsors.
MACCALLUM: I hear you, Karl. But here is what he is saying and I think it does resonate with a lot of people. You know, we sort of have tried it that way. We came up with the kind of prescription that you just discussed, you know, learn English, pay taxes, all of those parts of the deal -- and it really hasn't worked. We've continued to see influxes of illegal immigrants in the country. And then, the second part of it is at what point do stop that? At what age do you say, well, actually, if you came here last year, you're no longer accepted as part of this DACA program. It doesn't have a lid.
ROVE: First of all, we haven't tried that. That's what we ought to try. But the other part of it, you're absolutely right -- we need to have things that will secure the border. And, for example, one thing that needs to be done, this is part of our legislation in five, six, and seven, that Barack Obama said he was going to support and then opposed was e-verify. The requirement that in order for you to get a job in the United States of America, we would do something that Americans don't like to do, and that is to have you check in with the federal government and confirm that you are a citizen or have a green card or legitimate to hold a job.
We're going to have to quire every business in America to do that in order to remove the magnet that draws people here. The only way that you get a job is to come here legally, then you're not going to come here. And we're going to have to do some other things that are on the border that require tough measures that Americans are not going to like. But you are right, we've got to have both compassion for people who are here illegally, and we've got to step up security on the border. I would remind you, it was George W. Bush whom Steve King refused -- has refused ever to acknowledge this who ended catch and release. It took us five years to get to Congress to give us the money and facilities to do it, but you've got to have tough measures like that.
MACCALLUM: Karl, thank you very much.
ROVE: You bet. Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So still ahead tonight, after major backlash from current and former leaders at the CIA, convicted American spy Chelsea Manning has her Harvard fellowship revoked. So, why is she still going to go there and address the students? That is straight ahead. Plus, protest and massive security surrounded Ben Shapiro's speech at U.C. Berkeley last night. And although, there were some who tried to silence the speaker as these mug shots from Berkeley P.D. show you, it did go on as scheduled. Ben Shapiro, next to talk about it when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAPIRO: Thanks to Antifa, you guys are so stupid. It's horrifying. I'm grateful. And you can all go to hell you pathetic lying stupid jackasses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So free speech winning out at UC Berkeley last night. Ben Shapiro was allowed to speak amid a massive security price tag, $600,000 for security. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? They were all, of course, concerned about Antifa violence, which we've seen in force in recent episode there. Protests were still held. There were nine arrests made. But the radical violent anti-fascists were not around to stop the event. Here's some highlights of what Ben Shapiro did get to say last night in Berkeley. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAPIRO: Thank you to the morons who put up that sign across the way. It says we say no to white supremacist (BLEEP). Well, I say thank you because I also say no to white supremacist (BLEEP).
SHAPIRO: And if you stick around long enough in this speech, you'll hear me do exactly that. Thanks to Antifa and the supposed anti-fascist brigade for exposing what the radical left truly is. All of America is watching because you guys are so stupid. It's horrifying. I'm grateful. And you can all go to hell you pathetic, lying, stupid jack asses. As far as the idea I'm a white supreme, do you see the thing on top of my head. Right, it's a funny hat. It's called a yamaka. And white supremacists aren't that fond of it, which is why I wasn't according to the anti-defamation league, the number one recipient of white supremacist anti-Semitism on the internet among journalists in 2016. But no, I'm a white supremacist now, because this is the way the left works, right? If you don't agree with them everyone is a white supremacist. The reason that I'm here is because fascists does not own this university, because there are students who do want to hear differing views. Who don't believe that the first amendment should die under the Jack Boot's and Birkenstocks of a bunch of anarchist, communist, pieces of garbage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Here now in an exclusive, Ben Shapiro, editor-in-chief of dailywire.com. Ben, good to see you tonight, and good to see some of what happened in there. Do you think that, you know, any of the Antifa folks or people who were, you know, very much against what you were there to do, were they inside the arena? Could you sense that?
SHAPIRO: I don't know if they're inside the arena. What we were told by the police is that there may have been Antifa members in the crowd, but they weren't, actually, going to reveal themselves, because what their actual rules on the books that the cops are now enforcing that if you put a mask down they're going to arrest you immediately. So how Antifa works that they like to infiltrate civilian crowds, they pop out, they put on their mask, they do something violent, they pop back into the crowd, and then they disappear. That's how they work. The cops weren't having any of that last night. This is really attributes to the UCPD and for the Berkeley P.D. for doing their job. When they do their jobs and there's law and order, free speech can happen in Berkeley, when they don't the Antifa wins.
MACCALLUM: There were some arrests. Let's put up the pictures of the mug shots that were out there earlier, and I know you tweeted about these young folks as well. There they are. There they are, smiling young folks. Who got arrested, I think, for having some kind of weapon on them. I don't know if it was a brick or, you know, it didn't exactly describe it. But there they are. What do you think?
SHAPIRO: And the best that life has to offer. I mean, obviously, this is the cream of America. Apparently, some were arrested for having signs that have sticks on the back of them. One person was arrested for having some sort of baton in his backpack. One was arrested for spitting on a police officer. So the idea that if the police hadn't been there, there would have been violence, I think that's probably true given the fact that all of Berkeley was basically shut down. I mean, there's businesses shutting early yesterday. There were -- Bank of America, actually, boarded up its own ATM's because they were concerned that Antifa was going to destroy the ATM's again.
Antifa, again, they've been led by the city to believe that they rule the city, and last night was the first time that the police were actually allowed to engage in a show of force saying you don't rule the city. And if you try to violate the law we'll arrest you. I talked to a bunch of police officers yesterday. They were really, really happy that for the first time the leftist administration at Berkeley, and in the city of Berkeley, allowed them to do their jobs.
MACCALLUM: Maybe they figured out how to do this. And maybe you helped them to get there. I know there's a bunch of speakers, including Steve Bannon and Ann Coulter who are scheduled to speak there in coming weeks. So we'll see -- you know, maybe they've learned how to make this work. I want to ask you one quick question about the ESPN thing as well, because today there was internal memo that was leaked, and let's put some of it up on the screen, by the leadership at ESPN. OK. The ESPN president in a memo to staff says that ESPN is about sports. It is not a political organization. And, obviously, that was in reference to Jemele Hill, the woman who said that the president was a white supremacist. What do you think?
SHAPIRO: Of course, ESPN is a political organization. I've been calling MSNBC with footballs for years because that's basically what they are. You can't turn on a broadcast on ESPN without getting 45 minutes about the wonders of Collin Kaepernick or the heroism of Caitlin Jenner. I mean, they fired Dick Cotton, Curt Schilling, basically, for saying things that were mildly right-wing. The idea they're not political is just absurd. By the way, I think that Jemele Hill should keep her job, because I think as long as ESPN is going to be overtly political with Jemele Hill, I think they should hire back Dick Cotton, they should hire back Shilling. The whole thing is ridiculous.
MACCALLUM: So you see the pressure on this making any difference? The president tweeted about this as well. So is that why this memo was produced or is it just lip service?
SHAPIRO: Well, I do think that over the past few months there's been a lot of pressure on ESPN to demonstrate that they're not a partisan political hack network, but what's what they are and it's not really working very well. As far as the president, I mean, I really don't think the government ought to be getting involve in telling private corporations how to run themselves.
MACCALLUM: All right. Ben, thank you very much. Good to see you.
SHAPIRO: Thanks so much.
MACCALLUM: Ben Shapiro. So still ahead tonight, dozens of Democratic senators chastising education secretary Betsy DeVos for her fight to put an end to what have been called kangaroo courts on college campuses. Why some say those Democrats' effort is an assault on the constitution. We're going to talk about that. Big topic. And also, as the temperature in Berkeley cools down across the country at Harvard, another campus controversy is heating up tonight involving convicted American spy Chelsea Manning. Her fellowship was revoked. But in the small print, you'll see that she actually will be at Harvard, and she will address the college students there. Guy Benson is also a fellow at Harvard this fall, and Zac Petkanas also joins us on this tonight when we come back.
MACCALLUM: New fallout tonight in the wake of Harvard rescinding convicted leaker Chelsea Manning's visiting fellowship. They are calling it now, quote, a mistake. Manning's title was stripped hours after former and current CIA officials blasted the school for, quote, putting its stamp of approval on an American traitor, as they said. But some in the media were quick to report only half the story. Watch.
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UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Harvard said it made a mistake after it withdraws a visiting fellowship offered to Chelsea Manning.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Campus controversy amid growing backlash. Harvard rescinds its fellowship invitation to convicted spy Chelsea Manning.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Harvard has reversed its decision to name Chelsea Manning a visiting fellow. The decision came after CIA director Mike Pompeo cancelled an appearance on campus.
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MACCALLUM: What many are leaving out is that Harvard, despite withdrawing the fellowship title, is still clearly inviting Chelsea Manning to speak on campus. Trace Gallagher is here with the back story on this. Hey, Trace.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS: Martha, had President Obama not commuted Chelsea Manning's prison sentence, she could have been locked up until 2045. Senator John McCain called the commutation a grave mistake. House Speaker Paul Ryan says it sets a dangerous precedent. So when Harvard offered Manning a visiting fellowship the outrage was quick and loud. CIA director and Harvard grad, Mike Pompeo, immediately backed out of a speaking engagement at Harvard and issued a statement saying, quote, I believe it is shameful for Harvard to place its stamp of approval upon her treasonous actions. Harvard has now reversed course. Rescinded the fellowship and admitted the mistake.
Yet, Chelsea Manning is still invited to speak at a school forum and spend the day there. Manning responded to Harvard's actions on twitter saying, quote, they kill marginalized voices under CIA pressure. Back in 2007, then Bradley Manning joined the army and was sent to Baghdad to work as an intel analyst with access to classified computer systems. Manning then became disillusioned with the U.S. occupation there and felt if the public had access to more information it would, quote, spark a domestic debate on the role of the military. Manning then copied hundreds of thousands of documents, including intel assessments, classified conversations, and videos that purportedly showed civilians being shot and killed.
The material was turned over to WikiLeaks and published in 2010. Manning was caught, arrested, and arraigned on 22 charges, saying in a statement, quote, I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty for others. Clearly, others disagreed. Top military officials said the 700,000 plus documents put people's lives at risk, including some 900 Afghans helping U.S. troops whose names were not redacted. After being sentenced to 35 years, Manning announced he was transitioning to become female. Martha.
MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you very much. So here now with some insight on this, Guy Benson, who is currently a visiting fellow at Harvard Institute of Politics, and a Fox News contributor, and he's joined by Zac Petkanas, former senior DNC advisor and former Hillary Clinton campaign aide. Welcome to both of you. So Guy, you know, this is a club that you belong to. What do you think about this controversy?
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I became aware of it when everyone else did. I had no idea that Chelsea Manning was even under consideration for a position like this. And, look, she belongs in prison. She is a traitor. She violated her oath. And she betrayed the country. The fact that she had her sentence commuted by President Obama, I think, was outrageous. But, she does walk the streets now and has a twitter account as we saw. The fact that she's been invited to speak at Harvard is their decision. I don't think it's a great decision to invite her, period. But, since it was extended, I think the fact that they have not rescinded the invitation completely, I get that. I'm OK with that. I'm not big on dis-invitations. But, giving her a place of honor and calling her a fellow at Harvard, that is not something that should be bestowed upon a traitor to this country.
MACCALLUM: Zac, what do you think?
ZAC PETKANAS, FORMER SENIOR DNC ADVISOR: I don't think I could possibly care any less what someone is called or whether they go and speak to a bunch of rich brats up in Cambridge. I honestly don't. What I do think is a little odd is the number of conservatives who on a daily basis scream bloody murder about academic freedom and they're trying to silence conservatives, and are now up in arms about someone who they disagree with going and speaking at an academic institution. Agree with her or disagree with her -- and I disagree with her and the release of classified information, she offer as unique perspective.
MACCALLUM: But doesn't Mike Morell and Mike Pompeo, they have the right to speak out and say that they disagree. Mike Morell said, you know, that he just can't be part of an organization that honors a convicted felon and a leaker of classified information. Who's found guilty of 17 serious crimes. And they also both wanted to specifically point out that their problem with this has absolutely nothing to do -- Mike Morell said he fully supports her right as a transgender to serve in the military. Mike Pompeo said this has nothing to do with Manning's identity as a transgender, only her identity as a traitor.
PETKANAS: Sure. And I believe that's their position.
PETKANAS: And I also believe that they have a right to go in and say that if they want. I also have the right not to care about it. And I'm kind of confused about why other people do as well.
BENSON: Well, I guess, Zac, my question would be, and first of all, I did not call for her to be disinvited from speaking. I think that giving her this title and this platform as an honor, I think, that that's really messed up and perverse. But isn't there a difference between having an issue and trying to shut down someone with whom you disagree where you have policy differences, or you think their politics are wrong as opposed to someone who is an actual, convicted traitor to America? I mean, there's a bright line there, isn't there?
PETKANAS: I think when we start making those kinds of distinctions we start running into the problems that you talk about so eloquently all the time about academic freedom. I don't think that we should be making those kinds of distinctions.
MACCALLUM: But Zac, whoa, whoa. What Guy has eloquently said himself, but that I will reiterate to make the point clear, there is a difference between having different, you know, thoughts, different feelings about political thought and theory, and being a convicted traitor to the country who put a lot of people's lives in grey danger. And when you're Harvard University, and I know you don't care about the brats at Harvard University as you said, or whatever, but we still actually live in a country where we do give some esteem and we have standards that we expect some of our educational institutions to live up to, so that's why this is an issue. I know you don't care, but at some point we have to have standards and it's worth discussing. It's worth debating whether or not this is a good idea.
BENSON: Why insult all the kids at Harvard as brats? What's the point of that? I mean, let them show up. I think some smart Harvard students should show up at Chelsea Manning's speech and challenge her aggressively and not let her hide behind the whole trans-thing.
MACCALLUM: And to Harvard's credit, Guy, that's exactly what they say they want to see happen. They said this is a forum, we'll allow some tough questioning of Chelsea Manning. Go ahead, Zac.
PETKANAS: No. Which I think is great. I mean, look, I think that because this is being a controversy. Harvard has come out and they have found an interesting middle ground which I think is great. She gets to go and speak and get questions. I mean, look, she undoubtedly, objectively, offers a unique perspective on accountability and transparency in the United States role in war and peace. Again, I like to be very clear, I disagreed with her leaking. I believe that she should have been sentenced to prison, which is why she served seven years, longer than any American leaker in the history of the United States. I think that was appropriate.
BENSON: It was the worst leak.
MACCALLUM: I got to go. And you know what? We're going to be watching. We hope that she does get real questions in that forum, and we'll see where it goes. Thank you, guys.
BENSON: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Good to have you both here tonight. So we've told you about some controversies that individual colleges across the nation tonight. And up next, is a potential battle that would actually affect students all across this country. Education secretary, Betsy DeVos, is really putting her out on the line with the move that she is now making. Powerful Democratic senators are lining up to oppose her. And it's all about college sexual assault policy. Mollie Hemingway and Jessica Tarlov debate the issue when we come back.
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UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: The notion that a school must diminish due process rights to better serve the victim only creates more victims.
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MACCALLUM: So there is a pretty big battle brewing right now over controversial Obama-era school policies. Education secretary Betsy DeVos says that she plans to rescind title 9 sexual assault guidance for college campuses. But now, 29 senators, Democrat senators, have signed a letter to DeVos and they're defending the Obama-era policy writing, quote, the current guidance is critical to ensuring that schools understand and take seriously their responsibilities under the law. And we urge you to leave the current guidance in place. Rescinding the guidance would be a step in the wrong direction in addressing the national epidemic of campus sexual assault. We're going to explain this.
Molly Hemmingway is senior editor for The Federalist, and Jessica Tarlov author of America in the age of Trump, both are Fox News contributors. So, basically, in 2011, the Obama administration office of civil rights issued a letter to college campuses across the country, and they basically said that conduct may constitute unlawful sexual harassment under title 9, even if the police do not have sufficient evidence of a criminal violation. And as a result of this, campuses really felt pressure because they could lose their federal funding if they didn't create sort of a quasi-campus court, which was made up of professors on campuses, and it said to them, OK, we're going to put these young people in front of you and you decide whether or not a sexual assault happened in the dorm room when both people were drunk, which is what happens in most of these cases or many of them. Molly, what do you think about what Betsy DeVos is doing here?
MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, FOX NEWS CONTRUBUTOR: Well, it's a much needed correction. I don't think many people who have looked at this issue would say that the guidance has turned out even as the people who put it out there intended. It ends up creating two sets of victims. On the one hand you have victims of sexual assault, who their attackers are kept out of the criminal justice system, just kept in colleges. And the most punishment that they get, for say, raping a student would be getting kicked out of college where they can go to another place and continue their actions. On the other hand, there is such a low standard of evidence required to achieve a conviction in these kangaroo courts that a lot of innocent people are being convicted and having their lives ruined because of this guidance. So it doesn't address the actual problem of sexual assault on campus, and it creates a whole new set of victims.
MACCALLUM: I mean, obviously, no one wants to get away with anyone who commits a sexual assault on any campus in this country. The problem is things like this situation in Columbia, and put up a picture of mattress girl who became famous across the country for pressing charges against a young man at Columbia. The problem is that both the court system at Columbia made up of professors said he didn't do this, and then the police in the Bronx also said that he didn't do it. But she continued to try him in the court of public opinion and essentially ruined his life. He sued Columbia, Jessica, and he has won a reverse title 9 discrimination case against Columbia.
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, absolutely. And he certainly should have. We all remember when that was going on. And what a splash it made, and how important it was originally to the sexual assault movement. And a lot of the causes Christian Gillibrand, our hometown senator here, this is her main issue and talks about this, and then the impact of the reversal. And the reversal that we've seen in other cases where it turns out that there was an accusation that was completely unfounded and some bad reporting that contributed to that where people didn't go deep enough. What I would say is that while I agree with the premise that we should reexamine these guidelines, the dear colleague letter guidelines, the issue of what Betsy DeVos has done is that she hasn't put forward new policies and new protections.
MACCALLUM: Not yet.
TARLOV: Well, not yet, but that's the point. We know that 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted during their college years.
MACCALLUM: Those numbers have been challenged dramatically.
TARLOV: Yeah. All members have been challenged. We know it's a serious problem. We also know that there's a spike at the beginning of the school year, for instance, right? Kids are arriving on campus.
MACCALLUM: But we also that there are a lot of young men who's been falsely accused.
TARLOV: And young women.
MACCALLUM: Let me go back to Mollie, because one of the issues is that they can't just go on with their life, Mollie. They just can't go to another university, because sometime they actually do try to start their life over, and then these accusations follow them if they're false and literally ruin their lives.
HEMINGWAY: Well, sexual assault is such a serious issue, and rape is so serious that if you commit those acts, you should go to prison. You shouldn't just get kicked out of school.
HEMINGWAY: And if you didn't commit those acts, you shouldn't have your life destroyed. Now if 20 percent of women were sexually assaulted at college, no parent would allow their children to go to college. Not a single one. Because that would mean that you didn't love your child enough to keep them from being sexually assaulted at a place. But it is true that there is a sexual assault problem, and that colleges need to have good ways of handling this. They need to have good policies. Denying people the right to life, liberty, and property, from being denied unless they -- unless you have due process is not a good way to go about.
MACCALLUM: It's about due process and allowing that to both men and women on college campuses, and that's why we're going to stick with this story. Thanks you, guys. Good to have both of you have with us tonight. So, finally tonight, we have a great story, which means it's kind of a fun one to end the week. Last month, 11-year-old Frank Giaccio of Falls Church, Virginia, sent a letter to the President Trump. He offered to mow the lawn at the White House for free. Saying, quote, I want to show the nation what young people like me are ready for. So today, Frank's wish came true. He's spent the morning -- look at this kid, how cute is he, mowing the lawn outside the oval office in the rose garden. And then, this happened.
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TRUMP: This is Frank. He's going to be very famous, going to be a Navy SEAL one day. He's going to do great things for our country. Thank you, man. You take care of yourself, OK?
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MACCALLUM: Got his own lawn mowing business in the neighborhood, and the White House thanked him as you saw. Good to see you tonight. Have a great weekend. Tucker Carlson is up next.
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