Rep. Jordan: Trump will be looking for a new attorney general

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," October 16, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: So, as we say, 21 days to go, and these midterm races could not be more crucial for both sides. There is so much at stake. Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum, and this is "The Story" tonight.

Starting with a showdown as big as Texas, between Beto O'Rourke and Ted Cruz. Our reporter on the ground got this response from O'Rourke when asked if he might be willing to share some of that $38 million that has been raised by his campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you willing to commit to share some of that to help other Democrats get across the finish line and say Missouri?

REP. BETO O'ROURKE, D-SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, TEXAS: No. I'm focused on Texas. But they want to contribute to another campaign, of course, they're welcome to do that. No. We're going to spare no expense.

MACCALLUM: They have a big debate tonight. And in Arizona, McSally, and Sinema, slugging it out for Jeff Flake's seat as charges of treason entered their debate.

REP. MARTHA MCSALLY, R-SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, ARIZONA: You said it was OK for Americans to join the Taliban to fight against us.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, we are running out of time but we have to let you respond to that, please.

MCSALLY: You said you had no problem of that. Kyrsten, I want to ask right now whether you're going to apologize to the veterans and me for saying it's OK to commit treason.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, we are running --

REP. KYRSTEN SINEMA, D-SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, ARIZONA: She's engaging in ridiculous attacks and smearing my campaign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: Oh, so you get the idea. And it is not pretty in New Jersey, either, where Bob Hugin is hoping to upset incumbent Bob Menendez.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For several years, Menendez had been traveling to the Dominican Republic to engage in sexual activity with prostitutes, some of whom were minors.

MACCALLUM: So, can the GOP defy the odds and hold the House? Can Democrats buck the momentum and take hold of the Senate? It will be to a certain extent a measure of the president who just told the A.P., "I don't believe anybody has ever had this kind of impact." He also said that it is not his fault if the GOP loses the House.

That after an open day on the calendar at the White House left plenty of room for tweeting. The president slamming Stormy Daniels and going after Elizabeth Warren, again.

Tonight, Brit Hume, Karl Rove, and Juan Williams, all here. But first, Trace Gallagher, live with a look at what is happening on the ground. Hi, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. In the Texas Senate showdown, Democrat Beto O'Rourke appears to be proof positive that you can't have your cake and eat it too because while his campaign coffers are filling fast and furious, his poll numbers are flat.

The Real Clear Politics average says O'Rourke shows him running seven points behind Republican incumbent Ted Cruz. Analysts say the extra money will allow the challenger to go on the offensive in his campaign advertising. But they believe during tonight's debate, O'Rourke is in dire need of a knockout punch.

So far, Ted Cruz who's been dominating debates since his days at Princeton has successfully painted his opponent as a liberal who is out of touch with deep-red Texas.

Meantime, the Arizona Senate race is a dead heat with Republican Martha McSally, running at 45.3 percent, Democrat Kyrsten Sinema at 45 percent.  Both candidates are currently congresswoman. Sinema is a former Green Party activist. McSally is a former combat fighter pilot who has been going after her opponent's former statements. Including 2003, when Kyrsten Sinema told an Arizona radio host that she did not object to individuals going abroad and fighting for the Taliban.

And in 2011, Sinema said her home State of Arizona produced, "crazy". And then, she advised liberal activists on how to stop your state from becoming Arizona.

For her part, Sinema has accused McSalley of playing Follow the Leader. Watch.

SINEMA: Martha has chosen to be an apologist and support anything that her party has leaked -- puts forward. Whereas, I've been ranked the third most independent member of Congress.

MCSALLY: This makeover has been pretty impressive. But people deserve to know what her record is, what her past is, and what the facts are --

GALLAGHER: Meantime, New Jersey has an elected a Republican to the Senate in 46 years, this year was supposed to be no different, until former business executive Bob Hugin poured $24 million of his own money to beat Democratic incumbent Robert Menendez.

Hugin has blanketed the Garden State airwaves with attack ads and they appear to be working. The RCP average shows Hugin down by just seven points, a far cry from on Monmouth University pulled back in April that had Menendez up by 21.

And remember when Taylor Swift's saying, "You belong with me." Well, former Tennessee Governor and current Democratic Senate candidate Phil Bredesen might beg to differ.

Last week, Swift endorsed him, now a New York Times survey taken in the days after the endorsement shows Bredesen behind Republican Marsha Blackburn by 14 points. It appears Bredesen summer momentum appears to have stalled a bit. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Wow! Trace, thank you so much. So, joining me now, Brit Hume, Fox News senior political analyst. Karl Rove, former senior adviser to President George W. Bush, and Fox News contributor. And Juan Williams, Fox News political analyst and author of the new book, What The Hell They Have -- What The Hell Do You Have To Lose?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: There you go.

MACCALLUM: So, welcome everybody. Gentlemen, good to have you here.  Brit, with all of that as a backdrop, I mean, these races are tight and they do, there is really so much at stake for both parties. Because when they wake up the morning after Election Day, it's going to be essential to the dynamic that is at playing -- that is in play in Washington.

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the atmosphere I think for the Senate and Republicans has improved some, at least, since the Kavanaugh hearings. There was a dearth of Republican enthusiasm as there's often a dearth of enthusiasm in midterms, and that doesn't apply to Democrats who seem to have plenty of it.

But the Kavanaugh case seems to have awakened a lot of Republicans and a lot of those races are looking better. The map -- the map with the only a third of the Senate is up and the overwhelming number, two to three times as many Democratic seats are, are up this time than Republicans a number of them in states that President Trump carried.

So, the Republicans have a good map. This may not be the best atmosphere for them, but I think that -- you know, that their chances of holding on to the Senate look pretty decent at this time.

A whole other matter, Martha, in the House where all the Democrats need to take control over there is the average number of seats that the out party gets in a president's first midterm. It's hard to believe in the age of Trump, that the Democrats won't get the average. After all, the antipathy toward him among Democrats is extremely intense. And this is Democrats' first crack at a ballot box since the 2016 elections.

MACCALLUM: Yes. So, true. Karl, as you look at -- you know, the different races that we took a peek at in the introduction there, where do you see as you, you know, look at your whiteboard and all of your numbers, where do you see potential for some of these slipping in the other direction?

KARL ROVE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think in the -- in the Senate as the Republicans are defending three seats, Tennessee which I think is correct -- the report was correct. It's tending to tremendously towards the Republicans.

Arizona which is going to be a dogfight right to the end. But I think, McSally is going to pull it out because it turns out Kyrsten Sinema is sort of the Todd Akin of 2018 with really extraordinary weird statements like -- you know if you want to go fight with the Taliban, fine with me.

I mean, and my state is crazy, and a meth lab of democracy. The tough one for the Republicans on defense is going to be Nevada. It's very close, it's tight. It's going to be probably settled by a handful of votes. But Republicans are playing offense in places like North Dakota, Missouri, Indiana, Florida. They have shots in Montana and West Virginia.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

ROVE: And I wouldn't be surprised if the Republicans -- I agree with Brit, the map favors the Republicans, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't end up with 52 or 53, or maybe on a good night, 54.

MACCALLUM: Yes. You know, I think -- I think that the GOP, they started to see the House races look perhaps slightly more positive for them in the wake of the Brett Kavanaugh decision. And the president sort of went through this period where he was very measured, and that appeared to be working in some of these House races. A lot of which are in the suburban areas, outside of -- you know, Chicago, and Los Angeles, and Philadelphia.

But today, he really let it rip, calling Stormy Daniels a horse-faced, and going after Elizabeth Warren. Again, Juan, so, how do you think that's going to play in some of those House districts?

WILLIAMS: Well, it's also today that he said that if the GOP loses the House, it's not his fault.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And I think a lot of those attacks that you just articulated, Martha, really are about how American women view it. And, of course, the critical voter in several of those suburban districts outside of major metropolitan areas are white suburban females.

So, I'm not sure what the president's thinking. I think it does excite his core base make no mistake about it in this era of Trump and media and Twitter and the like. But I'm not sure it helps.

And just to pick up, I just think that what you heard from Brit and Karl is on target. I would say that I think, a lot of these Senate races that are closed right now. Particularly, states like Arizona, but also going on to Nevada, and Texas which is the debate tonight. I just don't think that they -- I think those are red states.

They wouldn't be close in my mind if it wasn't for the fact that we have Donald Trump as president, and this is essentially coming down to a referendum on Trump.

MACCALLUM: I mean, you know, three weeks away, Brit. And I know you spent some time talking with the Senate Majority Leader today, Mitch McConnell, about what he thinks -- you know all of this looks like. And what the future potentially looks like if they have a slightly larger majority.

HUME: Well, McConnell plays his cards very close to the best. You have to -- you know, read him carefully. I detected that he is somewhat more optimistic than he was. When I talked to him a couple of weeks ago, he simply said to me, this is going to be a bad election. And he was quite -- he was quite worried about losing the Senate.

He seemed less so when I spoke to him today. And indeed, we talked a little bit about what -- you know, the Republicans might be able to do if the House is gone and all that's left is the Senate. And he is quite focused on judges as he has been now for some time.

They've passed a whole bunch of what 84 judges, have been confirmed. More will be (INAUDIBLE) or about to be confirmed in the -- in the weeks ahead.  And I think he feels that, that March can continue if they called onto the Senate because the Senate, of course, has the confirmation role. The House is that -- doesn't have to have a say in that.

So, that's kind of where he is. And I think he's, at least, Martha, being more optimistic, cautiously optimistic than he was before.

MACCALLUM: Karl, another tight race is the Claire McCaskill-Josh Hawley race in Missouri. Here is something that surfaced today, a piece of video from Project Veritas, which specializes in these kinds of videos. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, D-SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, MISSOURI: But if we have the kind of year I think we might have -- I think we could actually be in a position that we could get votes on this stuff on the floor. And we'd get 60, McConnell, knows it. He just doesn't want to put it on the floor, because then it goes to the House and then sits awkward because all those House members are total NRA folks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you would be on board with the bump stocks?

MCCASKILL: Of course! Of course.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bump stocks?

MCCASKILL: I was voting for --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: High capacity mags.

MCCASKILL: I've voted more most of those things before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For a ban?

MCCASKILL: Oh, yes!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Oh, yes! She's talking about banning bump stocks, banning high-capacity magazines. There's a lot of people in America that are in favor of that Karl, but how's that going to play in Missouri?

ROVE: Well, look, she's got a problem with the absent -- apart from any particular issue, she has a reputation for saying one thing when she really believes something else, and that's going to be her problem.

And you know, we talk about the Kavanaugh effect, and how races like Missouri are opening up after Kavanaugh. But Missouri, like North Dakota and several of these other races, was already moving in the right direction beforehand. And one of the reasons was at Hawley, the Republican was be able to point out that McCaskill was not representing Missouri values and finding areas where they disagreed.

And one of the big problems that she has is that, that people believe that she's more liberal than she lets on. And that when election time comes around, she plays like she's a centrist or willing to work with the president or willing to reach across party lines. And then, when the election is comfortably over, she goes back to voting the hardline -- Democrat lied down the way.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Juan, these are all pictures of Republican congressman who have now had their money pulled from them by the RNC, because this is the stage in the game when -- you know, money -- the folks who hold the money start looking at these races and say, "OK, you know what, we're not going to dump our money where we're not going to put good money after bad essentially. How do you see this, and how do you see the president's role?

WILLIAMS: Well, this is really interesting to me that I think that they are trying to -- it's essentially like -- you know weeding your garden and saying, you know, we want to get this out and allowed to allow the nutrients -- and the nutrients and the sunlight to get to the flowers we think have a chance to bloom.

The other part of this, Martha, though, is the president's travel schedule.  And if you notice, his travel schedule takes him into red states, into red districts. He is not trying to reach out. And again, I think that's a matter of sort of pulling back from what I thought was possible in the age of Trump.

He is again, playing to his base. And I think in like Missouri, I'm not sure exactly how much benefit he has for Josh Hawley. And I think, Claire McCaskill to pick up on what Karl was saying, does effectively play the role of someone who's in the middle as opposed to a part of the extremes that dominate American politics at this moment.

MACCALLUM: It can be fascinating. 21 days to go. Gentlemen, thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: You're welcome.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you all tonight. So, breaking news in the case of the missing journalist believed dead, President Trump just moments ago suggesting the Saudis like Brett Kavanaugh, deserve the presumption of innocence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Turkey is looking at it very strongly. We are all looking at it together but Turkey and Saudi Arabia are looking at it very strongly and it depends on whether the King and the Crown Prince knew about it in my opinion. Number one, what happened but whether or not they knew about it. If they knew about it, that would be bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: That would be bad says the President speaking exclusively with Fox Business Network's Trish Regan about the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi and promising to find out the truth. Now, Turkish investigators are saying there is evidence that he was killed inside the Saudi Consulate in Turkey where he was last seen. And so there's evidence that things were painted over, things have been cleaned up, we are going to get more details on all of this. Saudi leadership, though, sticking to their storytelling Mike Pompeo today that they had nothing to do it, a denial that is not sitting well with leaders here at home and abroad.

Benjamin Hall live in Istanbul, Turkey, with the very latest on this tonight. Good evening, Ben.

BENJAMIN HALL, FOX NEWS FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. And as you were saying, the last couple of hours, President Trump has given an interview to the A.P. in which he said this is clearly a case of guilty until proven innocent. His quote exactly was "here we go again, you know, you're guilty until proven innocent. We just went through that with Kavanaugh." But evidence against Saudi Arabia is mounting. Turkish was finally be allowed to search the consulate and claimed to have found evidence that Khashoggi was found inside, despite some of the surfaces having been painted over in an apparent attempt to conceal evidence.

Turkish officials have also disclosed details of a gruesome operation involving interrogations, torture, and a bone saw they say Saudi agents killed Jamal Khashoggi in seven minutes and hacked him to bits, and there are audio recordings. Today, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with Saudi leaders. He spoke with a king, who denied all knowledge of the affair, and to his son the Crown Prince, in effect their day-to-day leader.

The Crown Prince told the Secretary, we are strong and old allies. We face our challenges together. The past, the day of tomorrow, but now, even old allies are turning against the young prince.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C.: This guy is a wrecking ball. He had this guy murdered at a consulate in Turkey. This guy is got to go.  Saudi Arabia, if you're listening, there are a lot of good people you can choose, but MBS has tainted your country and tainted himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HALL: There are also reports that Saudi Arabia are considering saying that agents who aren't authorized the murder actually killed Khashoggi during an interrogation gone wrong. This would be a major breakthrough, also though, one which shields the royal family from blame. And next, Secretary Pompeo heads to Ankara to meet with Turkish officials and it is worth pointing out that all the details we have so far, come from the Turkish government. And until we have an investigation from both sides, I think it's fair to say we can't jump to any conclusions ourselves. Martha?

MACCALLUM: All right, Ben, thank you very much. Here now Marc Thiessen, AEI Scholar and former Chief Speech Writer for President George W. Bush and Andy McCarthy former Federal Prosecutor, both are Fox News Contributors.  It's good to have you with us tonight.

MARK THEISSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Andy, let me start with you. You know, your comments go to what Benjamin Hall reported at the tail end of his report which is that we don't really know the inter-dynamics of what's going on in Saudi Arabia.  There's a battle for power that is clearly the underpinning of what we are seeing here, and the question of whether or not MBS is the person to lead them into the future.

ANDY MCCARTHY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, well, there's a struggle within Saudi Arabia and there's also a struggle within the region, and the struggle picks the Turks against the Saudis. You know, a lot of people think the Sunni Shiite divide, Martha, is like the Rosetta Stone for figuring this region out. It's actually a lot more complicated than that.  But what you're dealing with is the Sharia supremacist governments, you're dealing with Khashoggi who is regarded by some as a dissident but by others as a -- as a Muslim Brotherhood, if not operative at least a sympathizer.  So this is very complicated.

And I think you know, I don't know that I would be going about this the same way President Trump is, but what he's clearly I think trying to do is try to minimize the necessity of the United States having to take action here and get more further involved than we need to.

MACCALLUM: Marc, what do you think?

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, comparing him to Brett Kavanaugh is an insult to Brett Kavanaugh. I mean, there is no video of Brett Kavanaugh walking into the house. I mean, this guy walked into the Saudi Consulate and didn't come out. There no video of him coming out. I think we've got pretty clear evidence that something happened inside that consulate. But you know --

MACCALLUM: Not to mention the fact that the Saudi government doesn't necessarily deal in guilty until proven innocent legal matters in general terms.

THIESSEN: That's exactly right. But look, people have been willing to turn a blind eye to MBS's repressive behavior because he's been performing the kingdom. But right now, he looks less like a reformer and more like a Saudi Vladimir Putin who is assassinating his critics on foreign soil. At least Putin isn't stupid enough to have it done inside the Russian consulate. He does it at a public park somewhere with poison -- with chemical weapons.

This is criminally stupid on the part of the Saudis if it, in fact, was from the top. And also quite frankly, it's a betrayal of Donald Trump.  Donald Trump put his neck on the line for MBS. When he came into office, his first trip was to Saudi Arabia. He endorsed MBS, he endorse his reforms. He made Saudi Arabia a centerpiece of our policy in the region again, turning away the Obama policy of cording Iran to shoring up our alliances, and this is how he gets repaid? By having the Saudis assassinate, murder, an American permanent resident? A Washington Post Columnist, my fellow communist at The Washington Post and someone who is well known in this town? I mean, that is just an insult -- not just a crime, it's an insult to Donald Trump.

MACCALLUM: I agree. And you know, the President is I think taking a step back and sort of looking at all of this and trying to figure out what the next move is. I think that's pretty clear. The Senate is pretty upset about it. You saw Lindsey Graham, and here is Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, R-KY., SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: We need to find out first what happened before deciding what kind of response is appropriate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do think there will be some kind of response if these allegations are true?

MCCONNELL: I can't imagine there won't be, but I think we need to find out what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So talk potentially of the Magnitsky Act, Andy, being put in place against the Saudi leadership.

MCCARTHY: Yes, I wouldn't hold my breath on that. I think -- you know, look, we're dealing with a bunch of Sharia supremacists, Anti-American regimes. I think it was a mistake for the President to sort of hop in with both feet with the Saudis. You have to be leery of the Turks. You know, the -- actually, I think the smart thing with this region is to have as little to do with it as possible and to have -- you know, we lead, we obviously have our values, we should champion them, but as far as dealing with them is concerned, I think we should remember that they're anti- American regimes and have as little to do with them as possible.

MACCALLUM: I got to go but I want to give Marc ten seconds to close out here.

THIESSEN: Yes, we need some sign that MBS understands he made a mistake.  My colleagues Elliott Abrams has said, this is recorded that someone saying that this is -- it's worst than a crime, it's a mistake. And he's put Saudi Arabia in the company of rogue regimes, and he really needs to show us a sign that he recognizes his mistake and is willing to do what's necessary to bring Saudi Arabia out of what's becoming pariah status.

MACCALLUM: Thanks, guys. Good to see you both. Thank you, gentlemen.

MCCARTHY: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So tonight, where yet another caravan of migrants that is flooding towards the U.S. border after traveling through a couple of under -- other countries on the way, refusing to turn back. The President and what he plans to do. And the movie about the man dubbed America's Biggest Serial Killer that many do not want you to see.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that smell?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man, you got to see this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. I've never been in an abortion clinic before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Trump Administration tonight warning Honduras to turn around.  A caravan of thousands of illegal immigrants that are headed for the United States border will face serious financial consequences. That caravan showing no signs of slowing down setting up a potential showdown at our southern border once again. Kristin Fisher live at the White House tonight with the story. Hi, Kristin.

KRISTIN FISHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Martha. Well, this White House is not messing around. This is the second time this year that President Trump has threatened to cut off aid to Honduras over one of these caravans.

And his latest morning came today on Twitter, he says "The U.S. has strongly informed the president of Honduras that if the large caravan of people heading to the U.S. is not stop and brought back to Honduras, no more money or aid will be given to Honduras effective immediately."

And the message was really driven home by Vice President Mike Pence who says that he spoke on the phone with the president of Honduras and told him, quote, "The U.S. will not tolerate this blatant disregard for our border and sovereignty."

But despite these warnings from Washington and despite a standoff with Guatemalan police and riot gear, anywhere from about 1500 to 3,000 migrants are continuing to trek north. Now a caravan formed in Honduras on Saturday crossed into Guatemala on Monday, most of these people including children say that they are fleeing violence and poverty, but the U.S. embassy in Honduras is putting out a warning telling them that, you know, many times, the danger of this journey is greater than what they are leaving behind.

And tonight, after the president threat, the caravan's organizer was detained in Guatemala and will be deported back to Honduras in the coming hours. But thousands more continue on undeterred. So the big question now is, will authorities detained them before they reach the U.S. border, and if Honduras does not do anything else, will President Trump follow through with his threat to cut off aid?

And remember, the last time this happened in April, President Trump deployed the National Guard to the border and now, Martha, the stakes are almost even higher with the midterms just weeks away. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Absolutely. Kristin, thank you so much. So you know, they were many doubters that President Trump would win the White House in 2016, so what are those never-Trumpers think now that he has breaking -- he is breaking records and defying a lot of people's expectations. We are going to ask one senator from Nebraska, Ben Sasse who has a new book out coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: From the Robert Mueller investigation to Brett Kavanaugh, to Me Too, to Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, we are arguably in the midst of the most divided times in our nation's recent history.

Today Victor Davis Hanson put the last origins of the left's agony this way. "The catastrophic, yet suicidal loss in the 2016 election and the disappointment over the Obama presidency radicalized Democrats," he writes, "A combative Trump himself certainly enrage them and on a variety of political, social, and cultural levels."

My next guest knows all the drama all too well and he believes he has a solution, Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse is a Republican and author of the new book, "Them: Why We Hate Each Other and How to Heal." Senator, welcome. good to have you here.

SEN. BEN SASSE, R-NEB.: Thanks, Martha. Thanks for the invite.

MACCALLUM: I know you are speaking out, you know, about this issue and in this piece, Victor Davis Hanson sort of in some ways says you know what, that all of the ruckus is part of the process. It's a part of understanding people who felt like nobody was listening to them and giving them a voice and that we shouldn't necessarily shy away from that kind of very intense ruckus.

SASSE: Yes, so Professor Davis, Victor Davis Hanson is a smart guy and I've benefited a lot from his work. I got to (AUDIO GAP) you're talking about today and I agree with big pieces of it, sort of inside our political tribalism, I think his diagnosis is largely correct.

But I think what's going wrong in America, a lot of the stuff people are worried about is much bigger than the last two years. So the challenges that Americans face right now, we are the richest people in all of human history and yet we are some of the most unsatisfied people in the last 100 years of U.S. polling. Why is that?

Most of our problems are way upstream from politics. Political tribalism is ramping precisely because the kinds of tribes that give people meaning, their family, do they have deep friendships, do they have shared vocations, coworkers, local worshiping communities? A lot of those things are in collapse and political tribalism is filling that vacuum in people's lives.

But political tribalism can't fix this because political tribalism didn't cause it. We've got much bigger challenges that are outside of politics and we should be honest about a lot of those things. We need to recover the habits of rootedness for an age where technology allows us to be largely rootless.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

SASSE: We need to be rooted.

MACCALLUM: Well, I mean, I hear you on that and I think a lot of people would agree with you. And I'm very interested in what you say about communities and how divided even towns are now.

SASSE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: And so people sort of gravitate, they want to live in a town where everyone thinks like they do and none of us I think grew up that way. But you know, but in terms of the GOP and its ability to recognize and solve people's problems, that's something else that Victor Davis Hanson kind of calls out in this piece.

And here's one of the quotes that he has about that. He says "The Bush, McCain, and Romney approach was to be above the fray and expect Americans to condemn progressive excess, when, in fact, the attitude of exasperated conservative voters was always something more like, if they don't want to do their job and fight back, why in the hell should we support them?" What do you say to that?

SASSE: So again, I think there's a lot that's right about that. Our political moment needed a disruptor. President Trump came in and was the disruptor, and is a disruptor. But we need to know disruption to what end? The left has argued for decades now that politics can solve all of our problems.

If only the right people have power, you can bring on heaven on earth. That's B.S. when the left said it, it's also B.C. when the right says it. And increasingly we have a lot of people on the right who are acting like now we believe in politics as the solution to our problem, that's not true.

Inside politics, there's a lot that we need to wrestle about hard but we need to make sure that politics is in the right box because the things that make people happy, again, family, friends, local community, neighbors, meaningful work, shared vocation, coworkers and communities, government can't legislate those things.

Government is about maintaining a framework for order of liberties so that the communities of love where your viewers live are the places where they can build the stuff that's actually going to make them happy. Don't look to Washington to solve all your problems. That's the left's old life. The left shouldn't buy into it either.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I think that's very true. You know, just one last question before I leave you. One of the things that has improved, I think that everybody agrees with on is the economy.

SASSE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: In fact, right now the U.S. is the world most competitive economy for the first time in a decade and I think President Trump's feeling is that that has lifted all of those and that is something that perhaps might not have been achieved by a president who wasn't willing to sort of dust-up things and make it cut regulations, cut taxes, all of those things. What do you say to that?

SASSE: Yes, I agree. You know, the president I've been a conservative for a long time, long before Trump was and I'm glad that he's embraced a whole bunch of conservative views over the last handful of years and his deregulatory agenda it's a good agenda. It's right, he deserves a lot of credit.

There are bunch of things that I'm the second or third most conservative voter in the U.S. Senate, so there's a whole bunch of places where the president and I are aligned and he deserves credit for his deregulatory agenda.

In addition, and one of the chapters of the book "Them" is about the fact that the coming disruption in the economy means we're not going to have lifelong work anymore.

When you are 40, and 45, and 50 and you lose your job because of new technology disintermediate or disrupts the firm you work at, we need to have a long-term plan for that and most of that is not going to come from inside government. So we shouldn't have our whole worldview swallowed up by politics. We need a lot more than that. That's why I wrote "Them."

MACCALLUM: Yes. I think seven million jobs available in the latest reading the U.S. economy today that came out. So that's good news as well. Ben Sasses, senator, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.

SASSE: Thank for the invite.

MACCALLUM: So for the first time tonight, Attorney General Jeff Sessions' response to the many criticisms that have been rolled at him by his boss, President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY STAHL, REPORTER, CBS NEWS: What about the Attorney General Jeff Sessions?

TRUMP: Well, we'll see what happens come midterms but--

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: But everybody thinks--

TRUMP: He, I was disappointed that he recused himself. Many people think I was right on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Congressman Jim Jordan, who has been calling on Jeff Sessions to step down reacts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STAHL: What about the Attorney General Jeff Sessions?

TRUMP: Well, we'll see what happens come midterms but--

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: But everybody thinks--

TRUMP: He, I was disappointed that he recused himself. Many people think I was right on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: News tonight, Attorney General Jeff Sessions now responding to President Trump's latest dig at him? while fielding questions about the latest round of criticism at a DOJ news conference today. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF SESSIONS, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: He's been frustrated about my recusal and other manners, but we have been so pleased and honored to be given the responsibility to execute his agenda at the Department of Justice. And part of that is just this kind of case. And so I am pleased and honored to have that responsibility, and I will do so as long as it's appropriate for me to do so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Here now Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio, a member of the House judiciary committee. Congressman, good to see you tonight. Thank you for being here.

REP. JIM JORDAN, R-OHIO: Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Your reaction. You've been very critical of the attorney general.

JORDAN: Well--

MACCALLUM: And I think the attorney general feels like people don't spend in a time focusing on the work that they are doing.

JORDAN: I mean, it's obvious to me, I think obvious to most people that Rod Rosenstein is in charge of the Justice Department, not Jeff Sessions, and I think it's also obvious that the president is going to be looking for a new attorney general. I think he's made that pretty clear.

My guess is that will happen sometime in the not-so-distant future. Jeff Sessions is a good man, he was a good senator, but I think it's the president of the United States wants an attorney general that I think conduct matters different than Jeff Sessions, and I think that will happen sometime in, like I said, in the not-too-distant future.

MACCALLUM: And you've been very critical of Rod Rosenstein, as well. And you've been trying to get the DOJ through him to turn over a lot of documents. The president appears at least for now to have he's off the hook. Are you OK with that?

JORDAN: No, I'm not OK with that. We've ask for in subpoenaed the McCabe memos, we haven't received those. We asked for the August 2nd memo of 2017 where Rod Rosenstein altered the scope of special counsel Mueller's investigation. He won't let us see that. We've asked for the FISA application, portions of it, he won't let us see that. And we've asked for Bruce Ohr's 302's, and he won't let us see those.

And on top of all that, he was a no-show last week when he was asked to come in and give us answers under oath and now today, a key player in this whole affair Glenn Simpson took the fifth. So no, I have as big a beef with Rod Rosenstein as I do with Jeff Sessions because Rod Rosenstein is the one who is making it difficult for us to do our job as a separate and equal branch of government.

MACCALLUM: All right. Here's Rod Rosenstein's attorney disagrees with you, which I'm sure doesn't come as a big surprise.

(CROSSTALK)

JORDAN: Imagine that, yes. Imagine that.

MACCALLUM: -- as his job to alleviate talking about you guys. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSHUA LEVY, GLENN SIMPSON'S ATTORNEY: This committee has largely conducted its business through secret, confidential interviews and depositions, binding witnesses and their counsels, to silence, while the members walk outside to all of you, the media, and the public, and selectively leak from those interviews to tell you what they want you to hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: That's Glenn Simpson's attorney version of this, Jim Jordan.

JORDAN: Look, Glenn Simpson took the fifth today. You take the fifth if you believe you have some criminal liability, some concern there. That's the only reason you take the fifth. Glenn Simpson did that. I think that's why he did that, because of he's doing it just to obstruct a congress investigation, that's wrong too. So I think he did it because he's concerned about criminal liability.

And to say we're the problem? Remember what happened here, Martha. The Clinton campaign paid Perkins Coie law firm who hired Glenn Simpson who then went out and hired a foreigner Christopher Steele and a wife of a top Justice Department official Nellie Ohr to produce the dossier that they then funneled to Bruce Ohr who gave it to the FBI, who then went to the secret court so they could get a warrant to spy on President Trump's campaign.

And they are accusing us of wrongdoing for trying to get answers to how that all -- how that all took place? That is just ridiculous. In fact, he took the fifth because he's concerned about criminal liability he faces.

And I think John (Ph) said just a couple days ago and said it well, because he said one thing to one committee, and we have another witness to testify in front of our committee, the judiciary committee, who said exactly the opposite. I think that's what he most likely took the fifth today.

MACCALLUM: All right. Nellie Ohr, the wife of Bruce Ohr is up on Friday. So we'll see what she says. Good to see you tonight, congressman. Thank you very much for being here.

JORDAN: You bet.

MACCALLUM: You bet.

JORDAN: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So man's up America's biggest serial killer will be spending the rest of his life in jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kermit Gosnell is perhaps the most prolific serial killer in American history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: It is such an unbelievable horrifying and dramatic story, so why did some people never want you to see it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: This is a true crime story that is so horrifying that it's almost impossible to believe.

Hermit Gosnell, a well-known abortion doctor is now serving right behind bars in part for killing viable children. While many pro-abortion activists want this story to go away and so many reporters wouldn't even cover it, instead the investigation into Gosnell has now been turned into a very powerful film that people on all sides are saying is very meaningful, it's a surprise hit at the box office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are looking for anything that looks like drugs or paraphernalia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fill up your police department we have a search warrant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that smell?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Men, you've got to see this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a (Inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I've never been to an abortion clinic before. You're not going to believe what I saw last night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How may?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far we saw over 30 of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do the women goes into a clinic and comes out dead and there is no police report?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vials have been removed recently.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'll be the prosecutor who went after reproductive rights and you will be a racist to boot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're going to a lot of folk who'd like to see abortion outlaw. And this is not going to be the case that gives them an excuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution is offered you a plea bargain, Dr. Gosnell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then I would have to admit I was guilty, I'm not guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: The film's producer Phelim McAleer joins me now. Phelim, thank you very much for being here tonight. I think, you know, a lot of people might look at that beginning and as hard as it is to watch, say well abortion is legal in this country, so how is he a serial killer?

PHELIM MCALEER, FILMMAKER: I use that the babies were born alive and he murdered them in a rather gruesome way. He also killed several patients as well. And he'd been killing these babies for about 30 years, towards the end -- dozens a night. He is without doubt America's most prolific serial killer.

MACCALLUM: And I know you says that you were pro-choice before you started working on this movie, you've done a lot of different topics as a reporter and covering these stories. Let's play one more sound bite from the movie that may be one of the reasons that you changed your mind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were big babies, they had color to them and they look like they were, they had life. I don't know if I've ever get it that out of my head, being up close and personal is totally different from what you see on TV and what they write about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: How important was that to you?

MCALEER: Well, that's from the documentary that was made before this film. But I mean, it was actually the film is very heavily based on testimony like that, testimony from--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: She's a juror.

MCALEER: Yes. And when you see -- yes, the jurors all had to be pro-choice to get on the trial. By the end of the trial, all of the jurors had switched to pro-life. When you see the facts of this case, we showed it to a liberal friend, our movie to a liberal friend, he went out today and started chain-smoking and said I have to rethink everything.

This is what the film does. Now the film is PG-13, so we don't show any of the gore it's not a horror show. But it's a factual, you know, law and order film that really raises a lot of questions.

MACCALLUM: Yes and that's how the investigation began. Because as you show -- as we show on that trailer it was part of a drug bust, so they stumbled on this murder factory as you point out. But the fascinating thing is, that they were no -- when went into the courtroom to begin the case they were told, the attorneys were told you're going to be mobbed by reporters. This is going to be intense and you have to be ready.

MCALEER: Yes.

MACCALLUM: No reporter showed up except you guys, right?

MCALEER: Yes. I was in the courtroom, I saw them, I've been a journalist for 25 years. I saw them with hocking pictures, all of those terrible stuff -- Gosnell was sitting a feet away from me. Behind me was the most shocking thing. Row after row after row of empty seats.

The prosecution hires the biggest courtroom in Philadelphia because they thought they were going to be mobbed. The media didn't turn up. Nobody wants to be -- to do -- to do anything real cast a negative light on abortion.

This film has been in the top 10 over the weekend. It had two reviews in the mainstream media. "Broken Boy" which is a film no one heard of had 70 reviews, "Venom" had 280. This is the film that the mainstream media don't want to cover this topic and, you know, because they don't want to write anything negative about abortion.

MACCALLUM: Do you think it will change minds?

MCALEER: That's what people are saying on Twitter. People should look at what people are saying on Twitter that this -- it changed my mind actually. I was neutral on abortion before this, when I started studying it I realize Planned Parenthood are geniuses. They didn't -- they had me in the dark about abortion.

MACCALLUM: I got to go. Phelim, thank you so much. Important movie. Good to have you here tonight.

That is our story for this Tuesday night. We'll be back here tomorrow night at 7. Tucker Carlson is up next.
 
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