This is a rush transcript from "Sunday Morning Futures," May 5, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARIA BARTIROMO, HOST: Good Sunday morning, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Maria Bartiromo.
Joining us straight ahead right here, right now, "Sunday Morning Futures," former Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos reacting exclusively this morning to bombshell revelations that the FBI sent an undercover agent to interrogate him in 2016, but that was just one of several agents that tried to question him.
He tells us about the efforts to spy on him and new details this morning on the suspected Russian agent who fed him information about Hillary Clinton e-mails.
The ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes, is with us this morning, also digging into this, as he has been. He's demanding answers from our intelligence agencies about this elusive former agent, how the FBI knew to ask Papadopoulos about those Clinton e-mails.
President Trump says this is bigger than Watergate, as we have been saying for the last two years. Devin Nunes joins us exclusively this morning.
Plus, a high-stakes showdown on Capitol Hill this past week, after Attorney General William Barr refuses to testify before the House Judiciary Committee.
Judiciary Committee member Jim Jordan is here exclusively to explain why he encouraged the A.G. to ignore Democratic subpoenas.
Plus, former Attorney General Michael Mukasey on the Democrats' threat to hold Barr in contempt. I have got information coming up about that this upcoming week, how he sees things playing out.
All that right now on "Sunday Morning Futures," as we look ahead.
We begin this morning with a look back at the Russia probe. We are taking a closer look this morning at the probable cause and whether there in fact was probable cause to start a criminal investigation into Donald Trump in 2016 and 2017.
We know that the special counsel found no collusion, no obstruction. We also know that the Obama Justice Department and FBI spied on the Trump campaign. These are facts. But was there a legal predicate, a probable cause to justify spying, one political campaign spying on another political campaign?
This is what Attorney General William Barr says he is investigating right now. Now, so far, the FBI has claimed that it launched an investigation into Donald Trump in the summer of 2016 and spied on members of his campaign because of this man, George Papadopoulos, and a conversation that he had with an Australian diplomat.
We're taking that right now directly to the source.
Joining me right now is George Papadopoulos, former Trump campaign aide, author of the book "Deep State Target."
George, it is good to have you on the program this morning. Thanks very much for being here.
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN AIDE: Thanks so much for having me, Maria.
BARTIROMO: I want you to take us back to how this all began, because when you were and were talking about what you went through, it was actually stunning to me in terms of the level of people that reached out to you.
First, before we go through this timeline that is really stunning -- and I want our viewers to focus on this -- I want to ask you, have you ever been to Russia?
PAPADOPOULOS: I have never been to Russia, no.
BARTIROMO: Do you have any colleagues, associates that work in Russia or for the Russian government?
PAPADOPOULOS: Absolutely not.
In fact, I was working at a neoconservative think tank for five years leading up to joining both the Carson and Trump campaign. And I was in the energy business.
PAPADOPOULOS: So, as an American, doing those two things, you're not working with the Russians at all.
PAPADOPOULOS: You're not promoting their interests.
BARTIROMO: All right, so let's take it back to the end of 2015. And you were working with the Ben Carson campaign. You have got this timeline here.
You are working for Ben Carson. You wanted Ben Carson to win. But you decide you want to give Corey Lewandowski a call, who is running the Trump campaign. You say you're interested in joining?
PAPADOPOULOS: That's right.
Actually -- actually, I had reached out to Corey Lewandowski even before Carson, I think around June of July of 2015. I just thought that Donald Trump was going to end up being the president.
BARTIROMO: And he told you...
PAPADOPOULOS: I thought he was going to end up choosing Marco Rubio as his V.P., but no.
BARTIROMO: And he told you they weren't hiring yet, that he would get back to you?
PAPADOPOULOS: That's right. That's right.
PAPADOPOULOS: And we stayed in touch. I ended up joining the Ben Carson campaign after that.
BARTIROMO: So you're working for Ben Carson. You're in touch with the Trump campaign. Then Ben Carson drops out in January '16. So you are left without working. You don't have a job. And somebody reaches out to you on LinkedIn.
Tell me about that.
PAPADOPOULOS: Yes, absolutely.
So I was contacted by this company called the London Center for International Law Practice. I was living in London at the time. I was in the energy business in Europe. And they contacted me out of the blue: We'd like for you to come work for us as a director over here.
And I didn't think too much of it. And I went over there. And this company ended up being some sort of spark that ended up probably changing my life and the last two years of this country, because they are the ones that introduced me to this mysterious professor in Rome, Joseph Mifsud.
BARTIROMO: Right. OK. Don't get ahead of ourselves.
So you're working for this center. We learned later that this center actually has worked with the FBI in the past, right?
So all of the officials that I was working with at this company were either connected to Western governments, Western intelligence organizations, or some of the top partners of the top law firms in the world were affiliated with this company. There were absolutely no Russians whatsoever at this company.
BARTIROMO: And they reached out to you on LinkedIn. That -- that's -- that raises some red flags right there, because I'm wondering why a company working with intel agencies regularly, including the FBI, in the past reached out to you on LinkedIn. Why you? Why did they reach out to you, working with Ben Carson?
I'm just wondering if, in fact, more people were spied on, like Ben Carson's campaign. But we will get to that in a minute. They reach out to you. You start working. Do you accept a job?
PAPADOPOULOS: I do accept the job. I get there. And within 48 hours, I'm the director already, which didn't make sense to me. It seemed like it was a fabricated type of position there just to get me in the room and to meet various people and for them to introduce me to various officials around Europe and even the United States.
So it seemed like it was some sort of front company and front job.
BARTIROMO: So, fast-forward to March, when you decide you are in fact going to join the Trump campaign. You go back to your colleagues at this center, and you say, I'm leaving, I'm quitting, I want to go work for Trump.
And then what happens?
PAPADOPOULOS: Yes, absolutely.
So I tell them I'm leaving. And they're all furious. Essentially, telling me, are you crazy? You have such high-level connections here in Europe and then in D.C. Why would you go and work there? You just finished working on Carson's campaign. He dropped out. Trump is obviously not going to win.
BARTIROMO: OK, but you decide you're going to do it. You're going to do it.
BARTIROMO: And they say what?
PAPADOPOULOS: Yes. And they're just furious.
And they say, well, if you end up leaving us, before you go, we need you to go to Rome with us, because we have people there who are going to help you on the campaign. And at the time, I didn't think anything of it. And I went to Rome with them to this university.
BARTIROMO: OK. So you go to this university in Rome, and you meet some interesting individuals. Let's talk about that. One of those individuals is this gentleman named Mifsud.
Tell me about the people that you met in Rome, when you're still working for the London Center of International Law Practice, which, of course, reached out to you on LinkedIn to get you this job. And you meet -- and they convince you, before you go to work for Trump, you have got to go to Rome.
And as soon as I get there, I'm basically greeted by the former Italian foreign minister, Vincenzo Scotti, very high-level Italian officials who are affiliated with this university. I suspect there were likely FBI, CIA people there too, because the CIA and FBI trains at this university.
BARTIROMO: And you meet Mifsud. You meet Mifsud.
BARTIROMO: And you start having meetings with him.
BARTIROMO: Tell me about Mifsud. Who is Mifsud?
PAPADOPOULOS: Yes. So, I'm introduced to Mifsud by the Italian -- former Italian Foreign Minister Scotti and this company I work for.
And Mifsud basically is the overseas professor that Bob Mueller falsely characterized to the world as some sort of Russian cutout who was trying to conspire with me or collude with me and provide information that the Russians had Hillary Clinton's e-mails. Now...
BARTIROMO: But he drops a bomb on you. He drops a bomb on you in one of the meetings?
So after I meet him in mid-March -- so, before my name is even public in The Washington Post, these people are introducing me to Joseph Mifsud. So, clearly, there were some sort of eyes on me even before my name was public.
So he meets with me. We have some bizarre conversations moving forward about a potential meeting between Trump and Putin. He could never introduce me to anyone of substance in the Russian government or anyone of substance in general.
And in late April, he lets me know that, hey, George, did you know that the Russians have Hillary Clinton's e-mails? And that's where I was very suspicious of this person. And, actually, facts and events preceding that moment and after were very bizarre.
So he tells you, Russia has e-mails of Hillary Clinton's. And this is the bomb that you feel was the whole reason that they wanted you to go to Rome to meet him, because he -- they wanted him to tell you about these e-mails that Russia had of Hillary Clinton. Is that right?
PAPADOPOULOS: That's absolutely correct.
I think this person was some sort of plant. He's been outed recently living openly next to the U.S. Embassy in Rome. He's been -- he's being protected, actually, by Italian intelligence right now. And he's gone missing for two years.
BARTIROMO: So, they didn't want you to -- they wanted you to go back and tell Trump about Russia having Hillary Clinton e-mails.
BARTIROMO: Did you do that?
PAPADOPOULOS: Absolutely not. That wasn't my job.
You hear a lot of gossip and strange things when you're in these circles. And the last thing I was going to do was go and talk to the campaign about something that I thought was illegal.
BARTIROMO: Now, what happens next is really interesting to me, because over the course of the next four weeks, first, you get the bomb thrown in your lap from Mifsud, that he tells you, Russia has Hillary Clinton's e- mails.
You don't do anything with that information, but you think he's hoping you will. But in the next week -- in the next month, you get outreach from lots of different intel people. Is that right? You are contacted by U.S. intel officials, British intel officials, Australian intel officials. What was that all about?
PAPADOPOULOS: Oh, yes, that's a great point.
So, actually, April 15, the Australian government reached out to me for the first time. April 26, Joseph Mifsud tells me this information. May 2, I have the British government reaching out to me from this man Tobias Ellwood, who was the number two at the British Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where he wants to have a conversation with me and get to know me a little bit.
May 4, I'm contacted by two officials of the DIA at the U.S. Embassy in London named Gregory Baker and Terrence Dudley. And then I meet on May 10 this Australian diplomat, Alexander Downer, who I testified under oath at Congress and told the FBI and Bob Mueller that I felt he was spying on me and recording my conversations.
BARTIROMO: So this is all what you believe is spying, recording of conversations, early 2016, way before there was any FISA warrant to actually get a warrant to spy on anybody.
And then it was Downer, the Australian intel guy, who, really, they got you with, because Alexander Downer had a conversation with you, and you were asked by the FBI, when did you first meet Downer? You tell them what?
PAPADOPOULOS: Oh, so, the FBI -- so, basically, the FBI interview was -- I brought up Joseph Mifsud, and I brought up this whole idea of who told me this information about e-mails.
And then I got caught in a perjury trap. And, actually, that was my charge. I got charged with, I guess, lying about when I met this person. So this is what this whole case was really about. It was a complete setup and a perjury trap.
But the information that I have now -- and after I testified to Congress, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of recordings and transcripts between myself and a lot of these assets. And I'm very hopeful that these are going to get public very soon and the president is going to start declassifying this material.
So you told the FBI you believed you met him in March, when, in fact, you met him in April. And that was the perjury. So you went to jail for, what, how many nights?
PAPADOPOULOS: I went to jail for 11 nights because of this, after I had honey pots, money thrown my way, wiretaps, surveillance by foreign countries. And then I finally get caught in some perjury trap and I go to jail for 11 nights. It was ridiculous.
BARTIROMO: And you feel that this was entrapment?
I feel that it was entrapment. And I'm very happy to see Congressman Devin Nunes, in the letter that he sent...
PAPADOPOULOS: ... to Secretary Pompeo and Gina Haspel to get more information on this person Mifsud, because if it's indeed proven that this person was really entrapping me, not even spying on me, and then there was a coordinated effort between these other various intelligence agencies...
PAPADOPOULOS: ... including the DIA and Australians, to extract this fake information, and then spy on me with another honey pot in London with Halper...
PAPADOPOULOS: ... this thing reeks of spying, entrapment and illegal and illicit behavior.
BARTIROMO: It's pretty extraordinary to me that it was so global, that all of these intel people are reaching out to you, and beginning with LinkedIn reaching out to you, to go work for this London Center for International Law Practice.
Real quick, why do you want the president to declassify these documents? What are we going to learn, very quickly?
PAPADOPOULOS: Yes, what we're going to learn is the involvement of the U.K. and Australia in interfering in the 2016 election.
We're also going to get to the bottom of who Joseph Mifsud really was, who he was working for. And we're going to understand who was running all of these spies at me and likely other people on the campaign, including Michael Flynn, who actually also encountered Stefan Halper in 2015.
PAPADOPOULOS: And I encountered him in 2016. So it's very important for the president to declassify this material, so we get to the bottom of this.
BARTIROMO: All right. We will leave it there.
And this is why we wanted to talk to you, because this is why the FBI says it started an investigation. You were the predicate. George Papadopoulos is supposed to be the predicate because of that conversation you had.
George, thank you very much.
PAPADOPOULOS: Thank you so much for having me.
BARTIROMO: We are going to continue to follow the ball here.
We have got exclusive reaction to all of this with Ranking Member of the House Intel Committee Devin Nunes. He's next live -- his efforts to get answers about Joseph Mifsud and his ties to foreign intel foreign agencies. Just how far-reaching were these efforts to spy on the Trump campaign?
Then, House Judiciary member Jim Jordan is up ahead.
Back in a minute.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
We are continuing to learn more about the lack of probable cause behind the FBI's probe into the Trump campaign in the 2016 election year.
We now know it was this man, Joseph Mifsud, who fed George Papadopoulos information about Russians having Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That claim Papadopoulos repeated was the predicate, apparently, for the FBI launching a counterintelligence probe into Donald Trump's campaign.
Mifsud is cited throughout the Mueller report and has long been suspected of having deep ties to Russian intelligence, according to Robert Mueller.
Last Friday, the ranking member of the House Intel Committee, Devin Nunes, sent this letter to the heads of the FBI, CIA and the State Department, demanding documents on Mifsud and his links to Moscow. He is raising questions about that.
Congressman Nunes joins me right now in an exclusive interview from the World Ag Expo in Tulare, California.
And it is good to see you, Congressman. Thanks very much for being here.
REP. DEVIN NUNES, R-CALIF.: Thank you, Maria. Great to be with you again.
BARTIROMO: The reason that we wanted to look at the opportunity for a predicate, was there probable cause, is because this is really getting to the point of what William Barr is looking at, what you have been looking at, what Lindsey Graham is looking at.
Why did the FBI open an investigation into the Trump campaign and spy on some of its members? So, before we get to your breaking news with this letter, what was your reaction to George Papadopoulos?
NUNES: Well, I have seen him interviewed several times. And every time that he speaks, we get more and more information.
And I think he is exactly right. One of the things that I'm asking for is all of the underlying information. So, if the FBI does in fact have transcripts of Papadopoulos talking to anyone, whether it's Mifsud or Downer or whoever, I think Congress and the American people have the right to know this, because, in fact, we paid for it.
And we had to deal with this for two-and-a-half years. We had to suffer through this. And one of my frustrations on this, Maria, is that we -- we said, when the Mueller report came out that I now call the Mueller dossier, named after the Steele dossier that the Democrats had paid for, I said that we were going to comb through this with a fine-tooth comb.
One of the things that we're finding is, is that they used numerous, dozens of news stories. Now, remember, these are the same guys that were leaking classified information. So you had FBI leakers that would leak to the news. They do a fake news story.
Then that news story would then get -- now we see was picked up in many cases and used by the Mueller dossier team.
NUNES: I mean, we paid -- we paid $30 million for this?
BARTIROMO: Yes. Do you think find it...
NUNES: So, why is this related to -- well, the reason it's related to Mifsud...
BARTIROMO: Do you think find it odd -- yes, go ahead.
Well, the reason it's related to Mifsud, OK, which is -- Mifsud really originates this investigation, because he's the first one that we know of that goes to someone within the Trump campaign and says, hey, I have got -- I think I know where the Clinton e-mails are.
So this is important, because, in the Mueller dossier, they use a fake news story to describe Mifsud. In one of those stories, they -- they cherry- pick it.
BARTIROMO: OK. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on right there, because I want to go deeper into your letter.
But I want to just say, Mifsud is the guy who told Papadopoulos, Russia has Hillary Clinton's e-mails.
BARTIROMO: Mifsud is the guy that the London Center wanted Papadopoulos to meet.
So it was this London Center of Law that actually told Papadopoulos, you have to meet Mifsud. Mifsud then drops this bomb on him and says, Russia has Hillary Clinton's e-mails.
BARTIROMO: Do you find it odd that all of these international intel guys are reaching out to Papadopoulos? Why reach out? Who is Papadopoulos?
He's working for Ben Carson.
BARTIROMO: Then he's working for Trump. So how come somebody from Britain, Australia, Italy, they're all reaching out to him? And, by the way, how come this London Center of International Law reached out to Papadopoulos on LinkedIn to go work there, after Ben Carson withdrew?
NUNES: And I think a better question is, is that -- so, Papadopoulos claims that he was quitting this London Center.
So how many companies or agencies that you know of, when you say, hey, I'm quitting, and they say, hey, what about a free four-to-five-day vacation in Rome? We're going to fly you there. We're going to put you up for free. We're going to you food.
BARTIROMO: Because we want you to meet this guy Mifsud.
NUNES: And all you have to do is meet this guy Mifsud, right.
BARTIROMO: Devin Nunes, we want to continue this conversation and go deep into your letter.
BARTIROMO: Stay with us.
We're looking ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures" next up.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
And we're back with Congressman Devin Nunes, ranking member of the House Intel Committee.
And we want to zero in on the letter that you sent late Friday, Congressman, to the heads of the FBI, the DOJ, as well as the NSA and the CIA.
Why did you write this letter?
NUNES: Well, we're trying to get to the bottom of Mifsud. S, as we talked about it on the last segment, this guy originates the investigation. We know that the Mueller team wrote this Mueller dossier. They used a lot of these news stories that, in fact, sometimes were generated by leaks from the FBI.
Now, I don't think the American people expect 20 DOJ lawyers and 40 FBI agents to write a 450-page report that's built off of news stories that in many cases they generated.
Why I particularly have a problem with this is -- with one of the stories is because they pick a news story, and then they cherry-pick from it. So they use it partly to describe where Mifsud worked, but then they fail to say in that same story that they have given support to by using it in the Mueller dossier, they cherry-pick it.
And they don't use that Mifsud was described as a Western intelligence asset. Now, Maria, anybody whose out there, all they have to do is get on the World Wide Web. And if you type in Joseph Mifsud Link Campus, which is where he worked, you will see, you will find -- you don't even have to be able to read, OK?
You will find pictures of him with many foreign dignitaries, foreign leaders. You will see that the Link Campus had -- the FBI was on the Link Campus doing training nearly all the time, nearly every year.
So how is it that we spend 30-plus-million dollars on this, as taxpayers...
NUNES: ... and they can't even tell us who Joseph Mifsud is?
So that's -- we're getting to the bottom of this. So, we believe he has ties to the State Department. The State Department -- actually, our State Department had him in the United States Capitol in 2017, Joseph Mifsud. This is -- and, remember, why is Mifsud so important?
Because Mueller, the Mueller dossier team, they essentially make this guy out to be a Russian asset under the control of Putin, said that he has ties to these Russians. Sound familiar?
So, this is the origination of this investigation. And it seems like Mifsud has an awful lot of ties to U.S., British, and Italian intelligence services.
BARTIROMO: Do you believe that the FBI had all of these sources out to entrap people from the Trump campaign, so that they could claim that there was a conspiracy, that Donald Trump was colluding with the Russians, but, in fact, they put all of these sources all across the world to get to members of the Trump campaign, like they reached out to Papadopoulos?
NUNES: Well, remember what I said on your show last year.
NUNES: I think I actually said -- I think I said it first on your show, as I recall.
I said, I'm not worried about whether or not they were spying on the Trump campaign. That is fact. What I want to know is, how many spies, with an S, were involved in this?
I mean, it's -- and this is why we have to get to the bottom of this, why all this information needs to come out.
BARTIROMO: Let me ask you this.
NUNES: And the reason...
BARTIROMO: Yes, go ahead. Finish.
BARTIROMO: Finish your thought, Congressman.
NUNES: Well, on Mifsud, so, in the letter, we also point out there's a lot of talk about how Papadopoulos, who was just on earlier, he caused the FBI and the Mueller team problems because he didn't tell them about his -- the relationship with Mifsud and how Mifsud had offered e-mails.
Now, this is in 2017. OK? This is in the Mueller dossier. So this is all about, in 2017, how -- how Papadopoulos harms their investigation.
Well, how is it then that the FBI -- or supposedly the FBI or other assets know to continually ask Papadopoulos about e-mails, about Clinton e-mails in 2016?
BARTIROMO: Right. Nobody knew it, except Mifsud and Papadopoulos.
NUNES: None of that -- none of that...
BARTIROMO: So, how did the FBI know...
NUNES: That's right.
BARTIROMO: ... if Mifsud wasn't an asset of the FBI?
Let me ask you this. All of this spying going on early in '16, watching Papadopoulos, knowing that he was reaching out to Lewandowski, this London Center reaching out to him to go work there, there wasn't a warrant.
The FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen, like they did with Carter Page, didn't happen until October later that year.
BARTIROMO: So was this illicit spying?
NUNES: Well, it's beyond me.
I never knew that you could use counterintelligence capabilities -- these are the -- these are the capabilities that we have in our government to go after and target terrorists. I never knew that you could actually go out and use those capabilities to spy on Americans.
And, look, we don't know all of this yet for sure, but I think we have strong suspicions that that is exactly what was happening. And you really only have to look at the text messages from Strzok and Page, who were the FBI agents who were the lead that ultimately served on the Mueller dossier team. They were texting about this stuff.
BARTIROMO: They wanted an insurance policy.
NUNES: That's right.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, it's good to see you this morning.
NUNES: That's right.
BARTIROMO: Thanks very much.
NUNES: Thanks, Maria.
BARTIROMO: We continue to peel back the onion on this blowout story, which, of course, we have been covering now for two years. And you have heard the truth right here.
We will take a break.
When we come back, the battle between Congress and the Justice Department heats up, after William Barr defies House Democrats.
Judiciary Committee member Jim Jordan on why the attorney general is right to push back, plus his reaction to claims of child trafficking on the southern border. We were at the border last week. Migrants are using children to claim asylum -- how the White House is cracking down on that abuse.
That and a lot more, as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures" right here.
Back in a minute.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Attorney General William Barr taking heat from Democrats on Capitol Hill this past week, after refusing to testify before the House Judiciary Committee last Thursday over the proposed questioning format.
Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler now threatening to hold Barr in contempt of Congress if he doesn't produce the full unredacted Mueller report by 9:00 a.m. Monday morning.
Joining me right now is Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio, ranking Republican on the House Oversight Committee.
Congressman, it's always a pleasure to see you.
REP. JIM JORDAN, R-OH: Good to be with you.
BARTIROMO: Before we get into what took place last week in your committee, your reaction to what we just heard from Papadopoulos and Nunes.
JORDAN: Well, I think the fundamental question is, was Joseph Mifsud working for Western intelligence?
And if he was, that changes it all. Bill Barr has indicated he's going to get to the bottom of this. And it is important that we do find out how this all started.
I always go back to this, Maria. January 3, 2017, then the highest ranking official in the United States Congress, Senator Chuck Schumer, said this about president-elect Trump. He said, you mess with the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.
And the question is, did that really play out? Was the intelligence community targeting the Trump campaign, targeting the Trump -- then president-elect Trump and the Trump administration? Bill Barr wants to find out. And I think he's going to do it. And I applaud him for doing so.
BARTIROMO: Yes, that is key, because if we learn officially that Mifsud was actually working for the FBI, then we have got the evidence it was all entrapment, it was all a plan.
JORDAN: Well, yes, but it's not just Mifsud. It's like what we have learned from The New York Times.
JORDAN: It's this lady Azra Turk, who is...
BARTIROMO: That's right.
JORDAN: ... a plant trying to set George Papadopoulos up.
We already know about the dossier that was paid for by the Clinton campaign, taken to the secret court to get the warrant to spy on Carter Page, associated with the Trump campaign. We already know about all of that.
So spying -- as Bill Barr said under oath, spying definitely occurred. The question is, was there a proper predicate? And it looks like there wasn't.
I would also point people to -- your viewers to look at Emmet Flood's letter that he sent to the attorney general last week, where he talks about this same fundamental issue. He says, in this great country, unelected people in the bureaucracy, in the executive branch answer to the elected guy. They answer to the president, not the other way around.
JORDAN: And that is critical. When you take Chuck Schumer's statement and Emmet Flood's letter, where he points out that point, this is scary.
And this is why it's so important that Bill Barr and Michael Horowitz get to the bottom of this and report to the American people.
BARTIROMO: That's right.
And this is why I, from the beginning, have been saying, this is not about Trump for me. This is not about the president. This is about America. This is about fairness.
JORDAN: It sure is.
BARTIROMO: And I think it's so extraordinary that you have all of these international intel agents...
BARTIROMO: ... Britain, Australia, Italy, all reaching out to George Papadopoulos.
And what about them reaching out, the London Center of Law reaching out to him on LinkedIn to get him a job, so...
BARTIROMO: ... that they could watch him after he left the Carson campaign?
OK, let me switch gears.
JORDAN: Well, wait. But here's the...
BARTIROMO: Yes, go ahead.
JORDAN: But here is the -- how much were these people -- how much did the United States taxpayers pay Christopher Steele? How much did the United States taxpayers pay this Azra Turk lady who was trying to set up Papadopoulos?
How much were we paying Halper? All these are important questions that, when we do get Bill Barr in front of our committee, I'm going to ask him, or I hope his investigation will uncover and give us that information.
BARTIROMO: So, my sources are telling me this morning that Jerry Nadler is going to mark up a resolution this Wednesday to hold Bill Barr in contempt.
BARTIROMO: Is that correct?
JORDAN: Probably so.
But, I mean, who knows? These guys are bound and determined to go after the attorney general, to go after President Trump, and not -- not going to focus on what we need to do to help the country. So I think they're nervous about Bill Barr, because remember what he said three weeks ago in front of the Senate Finance Committee.
He made four important points. First of all, he said spying did in fact take place. Second, he said there is a basis for his concern that the spying wasn't properly predicated. Third, he said there was a failure of leadership at the upper echelon of the FBI. We know that for sure.
Comey, McCabe, Baker, Strzok, Page, we know there was a failure of leadership there. And then, fourth, he used two terms that I have never really heard before, and my guess is most Americans haven't. He used the term unauthorized surveillance and he used the term political surveillance.
So the Democrats are scared. And, frankly, I think, when we're talking about obstruction of justice, the real obstruction of justice is what Democrats are trying to do to the attorney general. They are trying to stop him by all these things, this contempt and not having him come testify. They are trying to stop him from getting the answers that we just talked about.
By the way, what you said a minute ago about Chuck Schumer saying that the intel agencies will take six days to Sunday to get you back, Sally Yates said that too last year.
BARTIROMO: Remember when she said, don't mess with John Brennan? John Brennan will get you back.
JORDAN: It's scary.
BARTIROMO: And John Brennan was all over TV calling the president treasonous, peddle his former CIA director title.
JORDAN: And when was John Brennan's name ever on a ballot? When was James Clapper's name on a ballot? Jim Comey, Andy McCabe, Jim Baker, Lisa Page, Peter Strzok, not one of them were on a ballot.
But Donald Trump's name was. And he was elected president of the United States. And for them not to -- just because they didn't like that, and didn't like the fact that the American people picked this guy to be our commander in chief, they go after him?
BARTIROMO: Hey, they were..
JORDAN: That is scary.
And that's why Emmet Flood's letter -- I would encourage every one of your viewers to read his letter...
JORDAN: ... where he lays this out, the leaking and the spying, all this.
So important that we get to the bottom of this. And that's what scares the Democrats. And that's why they are targeting Attorney General Barr.
BARTIROMO: Well, look, you had this group, this cabal of people running the intel agencies. They are running the world.
You had them running the FBI, the CIA, the NSA. And, frankly, they didn't like Donald Trump's personality, Congressman. That's it. They didn't want him as president. It didn't matter to them that he was duly elected.
JORDAN: And, Maria, we now know they misled people twice.
They misled the FISA court when they took the Clinton campaign's paid-for document, when they paid the law firm Perkins Coie, who then hired Fusion, who then went and hired a foreigner, Christopher Steele, to put this garbage document together, the dossier...
JORDAN: ... that became the basis for that.
And we also learned last week that, with this person they planted to go after George Papadopoulos, they misled -- they were trying to mislead there too. This was how this all started. And if we now learn that Mifsud was also working as a Western intelligence asset, that is scary.
And so this is why this investigation that Bill Barr has said he's going to do is so important.
Real quick, before -- real quick. I got to get to immigration, but, real quick, do you have a date for Bob Mueller to testify in front of your committee? He was supposed -- I know that they have offered, what, sometime in May?
JORDAN: Yes. Yes.
I mean, that's up to Jerry Nadler. He's the chairman. Look, I said all along, if they want to bring in Bob Mueller, fine. I will ask him questions. I have asked him questions before. That's fine. And if they bring him in, I think that's -- that's OK.
BARTIROMO: Do you think we're going to get accountability for the FISA abuse and for this obstruction that has taken place?
JORDAN: I do.
I think Mr. Horowitz will have his report, as you know, sometime in the next four to six weeks, is what he said.
JORDAN: I look forward to reading that. Michael Horowitz has done good work in the past. I expect another good report from the inspector general.
BARTIROMO: All right, let me move on, because, last week, "Sunday Morning Futures" was privileged enough to become the only program to be able to broadcast an entire show from the busiest border crossing in America.
BARTIROMO: And that is El Paso. And what we saw was just stunning, children putting -- in incredibly difficult, terrible positions.
Then we found out -- we got confirmation that there's a renting of children program going on in El Salvador, in Honduras, Guatemala, where people are renting their kids, giving the kids to people, so that they can cross the border, then sending the kids back.
Here is what the mayor of El Paso told me. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: The children are being put into very dangerous situations.
DEE MARGO, R-MAYOR OF EL PASO, TEXAS: And, in some cases, they're informing me that we may have -- I don't know how to phrase it -- rental children, so to speak.
MARGO: ... that they aren't necessarily the actual families, that they are bringing these children in.
So it's -- there's human trafficking. There are some real serious issues that Congress needs to address.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Is Congress going to address it?
JORDAN: Unfortunately, I don't think the Democrats are going to work with us to do what everyone now knows in this country needs to be done.
You need to build a border security wall and you need to change our asylum laws. We have said for -- the president has been clear on this. This is a crisis. Finally, now, even some on the left are realizing it is in fact a crisis, the human trafficking problem, the gang problem, the drug problem, all those things.
This is a crisis, but you have to do two fundamental things, change the asylum law, build the border security wall. Those two things have to happen first. And the Democrats just don't want to go there because, for them, it's all about politics and it's all about going after the president.
BARTIROMO: Because it's just going to give him another victory. Unbelievable.
Congressman, it's good to see you this morning. Thanks very much.
JORDAN: You bet. Thank you, Maria.
BARTIROMO: Congressman Jim Jordan.
We will take a break.
When we come back, former Attorney General Michael Mukasey on all of that.
Stay with us.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Congressional Democrats are gearing up for a bitter battle with Attorney General William Barr.
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler giving Barr an ultimatum before moving forward with his threat to hold the A.G. in contempt.
I understand from my sources that he's going to try to mark up a resolution this Wednesday.
Judge Michael Mukasey joins me now, in an exclusive interview. He served as attorney general under President George W. Bush.
And, Your Honor, it is always a pleasure to see you. Thanks so much for joining us this morning.
MICHAEL MUKASEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good to be here.
BARTIROMO: Before we go into what took place this past week, your reaction to what you have heard on this program so far this morning?
MUKASEY: Well, that was quite a tossed salad of facts that we got from Papadopoulos.
And -- but I think that he's only part of the story. And Bill Barr has said that he's going to conduct an investigation into how all of this got started. And I think that Papadopoulos is only part of it.
BARTIROMO: OK, so when you say a salad of facts, tell me how you see all of this and what has taken place in the last two years.
I mean, we know that this guy was -- he had outreach from all of these spies across the world. We also know that the FBI spied on the Trump campaign. What can you tell us?
MUKASEY: I think we also know that it really didn't get started with Papadopoulos. As the report says, it started before that.
But there's a great deal we don't know. We're going to know more when the inspector general, Michael Horowitz, issues his report. We may know more when Lindsey Graham conducts hearings in the Senate.
After all of that, Mr. Barr has said that he is putting together a team to look into all of this, and he can take the results of the I.G. report -- the I.G. doesn't have subpoena power, doesn't use a grand jury, but any investigation that's conducted within the Justice Department by people put together by a team put together by Bill Barr is going to be able to use a grand jury.
They can take that information.
MUKASEY: They can whatever they get from the Graham hearings and use it to find out what really happened.
BARTIROMO: If he is able to do his work. We saw what happened last week, a bit of a circus, where the Democrats are now saying that Bill Barr is being the A.G. for the president and not for the United States.
So let me ask you straight out, did William Barr lie last week?
MUKASEY: Straight out? No. There were two questions at issue.
One came from Chris Van Hollen. He asked him whether he knew if Bob Mueller agreed with his conclusion as to -- as to obstruction, where Barr said that he would not press forward with obstruction.
Because Bob Mueller refused to come to a conclusion about obstruction, the truthful answer to that was he didn't know. And that's what he said. He didn't know.
He was also asked by Charlie Crist whether he knew about what was upsetting various members of the Mueller team who were leaking their displeasure with the statement that Barr put out -- that Bill Barr put out on March 24, where he stated the conclusions that -- the top-line conclusions that the Mueller report reached, that there was no collusion -- that is, there was no criminal agreement between the Trump campaign and the Russians -- and that -- and he reported accurately that, although Mueller said he couldn't press charges of obstruction, he said he could not exonerate the president.
And, of course, it's not any prosecutor's job to exonerate anybody. But Bill Barr reported that faithfully. And so when he was asked whether he knew what was upsetting him, his truthful answer was no.
BARTIROMO: Which is why Devin Nunes says...
MUKASEY: They were upset...
BARTIROMO: ... yes, this is all obstruction, obstructing an honest broker.
Michael Mukasey, stay put. We're going to take a short break. I have got to ask you about the Obama White House next.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
And I am back with former Attorney General Michael Mukasey.
And, Judge, before we went to the break, we were talking about the circus that took place last week after William Barr didn't testify. Tell us a little about William Barr, as you know him. Is this obstruction on the part of the Democrats to take down an honest broker?
MUKASEY: I think what it is, is an attempt to divert attention in part, and also an attempt to discredit what he intends to do by conducting an investigation into how all of this got started.
And by all of this, I mean the events that were depicted in part in the beginning of your program, George Papadopoulos and the rest.
BARTIROMO: Judge, I mean, the FISA warrant didn't happen until later in the year. So it's clear that there was spying going on before they actually had the warrant to do so. Is that a fair statement?
MUKASEY: Well, they were -- you don't need a warrant to put an informant in to talk to somebody.
However, you do need a good reason. And when you're talking about putting an agent in to talk to somebody in connection with a political campaign, you need a very good reason. And, obviously, that's what the attorney general had in mind when he wondered whether this was all properly predicated, not whether there was a warrant, but whether there was a good reason.
And I think that the answer to that will -- likely will turn out to be no. There were plenty of bad reasons.
BARTIROMO: Two questions real quick, before we go.
First of all, people want to know how far up the chain this went. Did President Obama give the directive to all of this? I know you probably can't answer that. But, more importantly, Judge, are we going to see...
MUKASEY: That's right, I can't.
BARTIROMO: Are we going to see accountability here for the people who perhaps did try to entrap Trump campaign members?
MUKASEY: Well, we're going to see accountability.
When William Barr says that he is going to conduct an investigation into how all of this got started, and he believes he has good reason to do it, he will follow through. And he said he's putting together a team of people at the Justice Department. They are going to have access to a grand jury.
And we will find out what happened. We will find out who was responsible for what happened, which I think accounts for a lot of the reasons that people are accusing him, falsely, of making false statements to Congress. That's an attempt to discredit what he's about to do.
MUKASEY: But he's not a man easily deterred.
BARTIROMO: Judge, it's good to see you this morning. Thanks very much, Your Honor.
Michael Mukasey joining us there.
MUKASEY: Good to be here.
BARTIROMO: What an incredible story.
That will do it for us this morning, "Sunday Morning Futures." Thanks for joining me. I'm Maria Bartiromo.
Join me tomorrow morning with more on the Fox Business Network. "Mornings with Maria" begins at 6:00 to 9:00 a.m. Eastern.
Have a good Sunday, everybody.
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