Rep. Gowdy reacts to Mueller probe filings; Sen. Rubio: Hold Saudis accountable

close

Video

Rep. Gowdy reacts to Mueller probe filings

Rep. Trey Gowdy weighs in on the impact new Mueller filings will have on the future of the Russia investigation.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," December 12, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Tonight, my exclusive exit interview with South Carolina Congressman Trey Gowdy. The firebrand congressman opens up about the things that he has seen in D.C. that he says he will, "Always be troubled by."

His impressions of the president during their very first meeting which happened this week. And the one person that he thinks he was -- he went a little bit too far with during his congressional grilling's that are a big part of his legacy here, from the IRS to Benghazi, to Peter Strzok and James Comey. Gowdy always reacting to the sentencing today, of course, of Michael Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TREY GOWDY, R-S.C., CHAIRMAN, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: The folks who thought he was a liar the day before he pled guilty, and then they think he's the most important witness in the world the day after he pleads guilty. I just tell you what jury's not going to believe someone like Michael Cohen. So, if your case hinges upon the credibility of Michael Cohen, good luck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

More from Trey Gowdy, a moment. But first, chief national correspondent Ed Henry. Good evening, Ed.

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Martha.  Michael Cohen once said, he'd take a bullet for the president. Now, the lawyer has turned on his former boss and is facing three years in prison and nearly $2 million in fines.

Cohen arrived at the courthouse in New York with his wife and children a sign of the human cost of these investigations. But in court, he ripped into the president. Saying, he was motivated by blind loyalty to cover up what he called the president's dirty deeds.

Tonight, the president's current attorney, Rudy Giuliani is firing back.  He tells Fox, how could Cohen claim blind loyalty when he was secretly taping his own client, the president?

Giuliani, also declaring this shows special counsel Robert Mueller's probe is a witch-hunt because his team is selectively believing Cohen on some matters while ignoring that he's lied to them on others.

He will surrender for prison on March 6th after pleading guilty to some crimes that have nothing to do with the president, like tax evasion. But the violation of campaign finance law are, at least, tied to the president because Cohen claims then-candidate Trump, directed him to pay hush money.

The president told Reuters, he trusted his lawyer to follow the law on those transactions, and while Democrats are talking about impeachment, and Cohen potentially giving up more information, remember, a similar campaign finance case against John Edwards over hush money was shut down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI, D-CALIF., ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Where this goes from here remains to be seen. I suspect he has far, far more things to talk about. Whether he will or not, and whether that's part of the Mueller investigation, we don't know.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Remember the Constitution requires treason bribery, other high crimes, and misdemeanors.  The most they have come up with is a very, very questionable campaign.  Contribution issue which failed when they tried it against Edwards some years ago. So, I don't think we're an impeachment land.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: And the president has even more fodder for his charge than all this is an overreach, based on the treatment of his former national security adviser. Retired General Michael Flynn who in a new court filing is charging the FBI basically set him up to catch him in a lie.

Flynn, says the number two at the FBI, Andrew McCabe, pushed him to not have an attorney present when he was questioned and deliberately chose to not give him the standard warnings about lying.

Now, McCabe, of course, has since been removed from the FBI for alleged misconduct, the handling of Flynn stands in stark contrast to the FBI's gentle question of Hillary Clinton. One of many reasons Martha, that Flynn's team is saying he should not serve any jail time.

MACCALLUM: Doesn't look like he will. We talked to Trey Gowdy about that.  But we will see. Ed, thank you very much.

HENRY: Good to see you.

MACCALLUM: So, I did speak with Trey Gowdy about Flynn and about Cohen, and we'll watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: Security adviser to the president. It has now been revealed by him that when he was interviewed by the FBI who wanted to know whether or not he was involved in any sort of collusion during the campaign or the transition with Russian officials to influence the U.S. elections.

He says that Andrew McCabe advised him that he did not need an attorney present during that interview. And as we know, what he is going to be sentenced for is lying to the FBI in that meeting. What do you make of that?

GOWDY: A stunning departure from the way they handled another investigation. I caught mid-year examination. With Secretary Clinton, they had multiple lawyers who were also fact witnesses in the room. There are allegations that they supplied the questions to witnesses ahead of time. And there's the clear insinuation that certain witnesses didn't misrepresent material facts to the investigators. But no one was charged with making a false statement.

If you look at the Russia investigation, Flynn, Papadopoulos, Cohen -- I mean, I'm not minimizing lying to the FBI. I mean, I prosecuted people for two, but if that's all you have, it's serious. But it suggests that there's no other larger crime, no one in the Clinton investigation was prosecuted for making false statements, and I just named three for him to be told you don't need a lawyer present.

And for them to allow her to have fact witnesses who were lawyers present is a stunning dichotomy that just not reflect well on the Department of Justice.

MACCALLUM: Michael Cohen sentenced to three years. What do you make of that?

GOWDY: It's about right. Now, it was the low end of the guidelines. He provided information but the southern district did not view him as a cooperator. But again, Martha, it's the same fact pattern.

Michael Cohen, the folks who thought he was a liar the day before he pled guilty. And then they think he is the most important witness in the world the day after he pleads guilty. I'm just tell you what jury's not going to believe someone like Michael Cohen. So, if your case hinges upon the credibility of Michael Cohen, good luck.

MACCALLUM: So, it sounds like when you look at these sentencing memos that came out on Friday, and the new information that we have today with regard to Michael Flynn, and Michael Cohen, what's your overall impression of the Mueller investigation and how it's going for Robert Mueller?

GOWDY: Well, I go back to what we asked him to do. Which is find out what Russia did? And until he writes that report, that definitive report.  Unfortunately for him, no one is interested in that part of his report except maybe a handful of us.

They're all on this breathless indictment watch. I mean, it is stunning that people are reading under black redacted lines hoping that there is something that implicates the president United States. So, they've lost interest in what Russia did. That was what he was asked to do. And then, the throwaway line was Obama way if there's criminality, we want to know about that too.

I'm really interested in what Russia did in 2016. I'm also interested in the criminality. But what I've seen so far, are false statements, bank fraud, and Comey admitted last Friday, collusions not a crime no matter how badly CNN and the Democrats want it to be, collusion's not a crime.

MACCALLUM: You heard from James Comey last week, and then, he will be back on December 17th. When he came, he was very upset that, that was not an open forum. And when he came out and talked to reporters, he said that.  He said, there's no reason why this shouldn't have been an open forum. He also said that the suggestion that there was FISA abuse in the initial stages of the investigation into the Trump campaign and any connection to Russia was ridiculous absurd. I think is the word that he used.

GOWDY: You know, Martha, I was disappointed in what he didn't remember, but I was much more disappointed in what he never knew. The head of the FBI has the campaign of a presidential candidate under investigation. He never read the initiation document, didn't know that Peter Strzok had signed it.

Still to this day doesn't know that it makes reference to the Trump campaign. He just thinks its four individuals. Doesn't know who Christopher Steele is. Doesn't know much about Bruce Ohr. Knows nothing about efforts to either corroborate or contradict the dossier. Doesn't agree that there's a duty to produce exculpatory information.

You know, I asked him, when did you learn that the DNC was funding the ample research into Trump? Oh, I don't know. As if it doesn't matter.

Well, if you know and you're not telling a judge, I mean, don't you think it's relevant? Hey, my political enemies are responsible for everything I'm giving you or 1/3 of what I'm getting you -- giving you. A judge wants to know that. So, Comey is one of the best I've ever seen at always being right in his mind. And it doesn't matter if he's a universe of one.

When you write a book about ethics and morality, that in and of itself is a fairly high opinion of yourself thing to do. Comey, just thinks he's always right. And it doesn't matter if Horowitz thinks he's wrong, and it doesn't matter if everyone else concludes he did wrong. He knows better.  So, that's what it's like to interview an amnesiac with incredible hubris.

MACCALLUM: Do you believe that he functioned as a political FBI director?

GOWDY: I think, Jim Comey was primarily motivated by a desire to protect the brand of Jim Comey. I defended him lot in 2016, even when it was lonely to do so. I would still be defending today if I thought he was making right decisions. But he is been so overtly partisan since he left.

Not just president, but he wants people to vote Democrat, he wants the Democrat House. He's just become a political flunky. And it's the same guy in this very room that you are I in right now. Said, the FBI doesn't give a hoot about politics. And yet, Peter Strzok, and Lisa Page, and Baker, and McCabe, that's who is running these two major investigations.  And he wants us to believe they don't care about politics. Go read the text for yourself. Go read Comey's twitter feed, and see whether or not he cares about politics.

MACCALLUM: What do you think about President Trump? You met him for the first time.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am.

MACCALLUM: This week.

GOWDY: Yesterday. Yes, ma'am. Number one, appreciate him letting me come. I wanted to advocate for John Radcliffe for A.G. and he'd already made the A.G. pick, but he was kind enough to let me come anyway. Wide- ranging conversation from life and Kavanaugh, the opinion just came out yesterday, not the opinion but the denial of cert Golf.

MACCALLUM: What did he say about that?

GOWDY: Well, he asked my opinion, which he did a lot. He said what do you think about it? And my sense is that Roberts and Kavanaugh did not think those were the right facts to have another hearing on an abortion-related case.

And then, we more offended my time as a prosecutor, I actually had a victim become pregnant as a result of a rape. So, we talked about exceptions, and whether or not I believe in them. We talked about chief of staff, we talked about A.G. He got Lindsey on the phone at one point so we could talk about. It was a fascinating hour.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: To see have a chief of staff in mind that he seemed to be leaning towards?

GOWDY: If he did, he didn't share it with me.

MACCALLUM: As you leave this position, and we see the new Congress coming in, a majority of Democrats on the House side. What do you expect they will pursue in terms of oversight given the landscape right now?

GOWDY: Everything. Everything that their base wants them to pursue.  Everything that is calculated to disrupt the last two years of Trump. Of this tenure in office and its -- they may be smart enough not to pursue impeachment. Although, some of them are not. I mean, 60 of them have already said he should be impeached, and Mueller hadn't issued a single finding, yet.

So, it will be very, very difficult for this administration. And they're going to have to decide how they are going to handle subpoenas and requests for information. It will be bitterly ironic for me to listen to Democrats clamor for the administration to be responsive when they did say a word for the six years we are trying to get information from with the Obama administration.

MACCALLUM: What did you think of the scene in the Oval Office yesterday, when President Trump was talking about how he wants to build the wall. He said I'd be proud to shut down the government over the issue of border security. It means that much to me. And Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer very much wanted to take that conversation private. Didn't want to debate it in front of the public.

For people who liked transparency, there it is. At first, I wasn't sure if I was watching Fox or watching professional wrestling. It was, I've never seen -- I've been around a long time. I've seen those conversations back at judge's chambers, I've seen them where -- you know, there are no cameras I've never seen it like that.

And it was clear to me that leader Pelosi did not want to have that conversation in public. But I -- if you're interested in a framing of the issues, the President believes that the wall is inextricably intertwined to border security. And the Democrats are trying to convince you that they believe in border security but not a wall.

What I would love for the president to ask yesterday is at one point, you voted for the wall. What changed? Why was it a good idea five years ago, but now, it's a xenophobic and racist, and not reflective of our values?

What other than the fact that I championed the idea? What has changed?

MACCALLUM: Do you think it was a political mistake for him to say that "I'll own that shut down." You know, "If that's what you want, I'm happy to own it."

GOWDY: I think, they were going to -- I think there's a pretty good chance they were going to call it the Trump shutdown, no matter what he said.

Now, Republicans also need to come up with a response that you haven't spent the money we've given you already. That -- that's a pretty good counter talking point.

MACCALLUM: Right.

GOWDY: We gave you $1.6. What have you done with that? So, it's going to -- I don't -- I say, I don't think there's going to be a shutdown. I didn't think it was going to be, well, I'm not sure right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: Nobody else. We'll see what happens. Much more of that interview still ahead. But first, members of the caravan are now try to extort $50,000 out of the U.S. government which they say they're owed.  Senator Marco Rubio joins me next.

ANNOUNCER: THE STORY is brought to you by the Lincoln Wish List Sales Event.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So tonight, they want to cross illegally into America but now two particularly bold groups from the caravan reportedly entered the U.S. Consulate in Tijuana and insisted that they be allowed entry to the United States or be given $50,000 to return to their country. They said that money was owed to them so that they could go home and start a business.

My next guest has called for an end to the mass influx at our southern border. He also has a new op-ed on foxnews.com calling for more attention to the crisis unfolding in Yemen.

Senator, good evening. Great to have you on THE STORY tonight. Thank you for being here this evening.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA.: Thanks for having me on.

MACCALLUM: Talk to me you know, a little bit about this. It's kind of outrageous to hear that these claims -- that these requests are being made for $50,000. They also want President Hernandez of Honduras removed.  What's going on here?

RUBIO: Well, first of all, it's a joke. I mean, obviously it's not a serious request that's being done for publicity purposes. Obviously, someone's directing it. These are probably activists. But I think it also -- they're sort of at least these two individuals whoever they are and whoever's behind them is sort of revealing their hand and it's something I've suspected. And that is part of this caravan movement at least I'm not saying everybody in there as part of it, but certainly at least some group organizing it is involved in the domestic politics of Honduras.

And so think about it. They were able to trigger a mass migration or the apparent -- appearance of a mass migration from Honduras. They would anger U.S. authorities because Honduras didn't control it. And then they would be able to fracture the relationship between President Hernandez's government in Honduras and the Trump administration. So you can kind of see here where this is a potential provocation to sort of create friction and create headaches for the President of Honduras coming from within Honduras, you know, groups that are politically active there.

So you know, that -- when you read about something like that, it sounds like one of those things that's done to outrage and it's not a serious request and of course, it's not going to be paid.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, they definitely showed their political hand and they did plan to a lot of the ideas that a lot of us have been looking into with regard to the political situation in Honduras. And they roped a lot of innocent people into that process in the meantime. I want to ask you a little bit about the editorial that you wrote today. You say hold the Saudis accountable with regard to the Khashoggi killing, but don't ignore Iran in Yemen. Explain what you mean.

RUBIO: So let's first understand what's happening in Yemen. What's happening in Yemen is that the Houthis are a group that Iran is sponsoring.  And not just sponsoring, they've given them long-range missiles, munitions and so forth, precision munitions. That give them the capability not just to strike within Saudi Arabia but theoretically to shut down shipping that leads to the Indian Ocean and on a key choke point there, and also to target U.S. military members who are stationed throughout the Middle East.

So if you think about Hezbollah, Hezbollah is basically an agent of Iran.  They used them to as agents on behalf of whatever Iran asked them to do.  That's what they're turning the Houthis into as well. And so if you look at Yemen for a moment, the Khashoggi thing is an outrage and there should be accountability. I believe the Crown Prince is responsible and I think we need to take measures in our foreign policy to address that.

MACCALLUM: I mean, as you say, the Khashoggi killing is an outrage, but when you look at the proportion of outrage as it is not applied to what's happening in Yemen, you've got 57,000 people dead, 28 million who are on the brink of starvation as you write in your piece, and 2.3 million who have been displaced. The pictures that we're seeing are horrific but there's a lot of people who believe that we should get out of that -- of war in terms of our support for Saudi Arabia. What do you think is the solution before I let you go?

RUBIO: Well, first of all, we're -- there's going to be a war whether we're engaged or not. Saudi Arabia has got no problem buying weaponry from China or anybody else that will sell it to them. And the issue of the humanitarian aid, the key ports -- there's -- one of the key port cities has been shut down. You can't get aid into the country. That's not even the Saudis. That's primarily the Emirates that are involved in that fighting.

They're both on the ground and from the air, but also the Houthis. They have shut down two of the major four access roads. They have put mines at the entrance of that port. They are as responsible for this suffering and they're the ones you're going to reward if somehow you take away from Saudi Arabia the capability to fight back. They're going to keep fighting them anyway.

MACCALLUM: It's a great point. Senator Marco Rubio, thank you very much.  Always good to have you here, sir.

RUBIO: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So still ahead tonight, more of my exclusive interview with outgoing Congressman Trey Gowdy who takes a parting shot at fired FBI agent Peter Strzok.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOWDY: So he is not reflective of the FBI that I worked with and he is not reflective of the FBI that you and I deserve. And my only real regret is that I wasn't tougher on him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: The hunt is on tonight for the "gangster-jihadist" suspected of gunning down at least two people and wounding more than a dozen others as they shopped at a Christmas market in eastern France. Authorities are now saying that they believe this was terrorism. They're combing the city of Strasbourg and its outskirts for the 29-year-old suspect who witnesses say yelled Allahu Akbar as he opened fire and it is raising questions about what could be next this Christmas season.

Trace Gallagher joins us now live from our West Coast newsroom with what we know this hour tonight. Hi, Trace!

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, Martha! The suspect is 29-year-old Cherif Chekatt who has been convicted of 27 crimes starting when he was just 13 years old. Most of his crimes were violent, none were terror- related, though police believe Cherif Chekatt became radicalized during prison terms in France, Germany, and Switzerland. Chekatt is on France's terror watch list and was under surveillance at the time of the attack.

In fact, hours before he opened fire on the famous Christmas market in Strasbourg, police raided Chekatt's apartment to arrest him in connection with an attempted murder. He wasn't home at the time but apparently, he knew about the raid because when he escaped the shooting location by carjacking a taxicab, he told the cab driver about police converging on his home and how he attacked the market.

Chekatt was said to have been wounded in an exchange of gunfire with police but there is no indication the injury is life-threatening. France has raised its terror alert level and imposed checkpoints at border crossings.  Authorities have not said if they believe the suspect tried to flee the country but there are some 400 investigators following his trail.

Still, no motive for the shooting and no word on whether the Christmas market was the intended target but the markets have become past targets of terrorism because they draw big crowds and have ties to religion. In 2016, 12 people were killed at a Christmas market in Berlin when a truck plowed through a crowd. And the Strasbourg market attacked last night was also the focus of an al-Qaeda plot back in 2000. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you very much. Coming up next, Republican Congressman Elise Stefanik and Ann Wagner say the GOP is at a "crisis level." And they want to-- they want to be the change that they seek.  They are here to explain coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: And it reported that Congresswoman Ann Wegner very much wanted to be the head of the Republican -- of the National Republican Congressional Committee, and that you discouraged her in favor of Tom Emmer, who some people, according to this reporting, believe was less qualified than she was for the job. What's your reaction to that? Can you explain that?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, R-CALIF.: No, I never discouraged anybody. We have competition for elections at. I don't discourage anybody--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: That a conversation never happened?

MCCARTHY: No, I think competition is healthy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: Republican Congressman Kevin McCarthy responding to reports that women in the party are being overlooked for leadership roles. Some of them are upset about the party's lack of influence among female voters and don't think that enough is being done to fix the issue.

So, joining me now, two of those women. Congresswoman Elise Stefanik and of New York, and Ann Wagner of Missouri. So, Ann, let me start with you. Did he discourage you from running for the leadership position?

REP. ANN WAGNER, R-MO.: I was very honored to have the support and encouragement of a number of my colleagues to pursue the NRCC chairmanship. I had just won a tufts suburban district in a difficult year with big headwinds. That Missouri had a big U.S. Senate race. And Claire McCaskill won my district.

I've got the recipe in terms of what, how do you reach these voters based on your record. I talked to them about veterans' issues, about human trafficking, about family savings accounts. Issues that our kitchen table, that are important to them.

I was encouraged by many of our colleagues, I did have a conversation with the leader, he had a different plan, and I respect that, and I decided, you know well, I'm not going to put my name and nomination, I want to be a part of the team. I want to make sure we are a majority.

And I'm just going to put my efforts and my leadership skills elsewhere, which in dealing with the suburban caucus issue and the suburban agenda which is going to be so important going forward.

MACCALLUM: And you are going to help because suburban women is really one of the biggest gaps, one of the biggest problems that your party had in the midterm. What are you going to do to try to fix that, Elise?

REP. ELISE STEFANIK, R-N.Y.: Well, I'm focusing on recruiting more women. So, I was proud to support Ann and encourage her to run for an NRCC chair. But I think what we know is we need to roll up our sleeves and be part of the solution.

I was the first woman to chair recruitment for the National Republican Congressional Committee. We successfully recruited over 100 women but we found that many of those women couldn't get through the primaries. And these were some of the seats that we lost in the general election. I am committed to playing in Congress.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Why couldn't they get through?

STEFANIK: It was something that I experienced. I often think it's hard for Republican women to get through primaries, to raise the money that they need. We need to have equal opportunity when it comes to access to donors and getting support from our colleagues.

So, I've been very pleased with the support that I have received from people like Ann Wagner, but also from people like Steve Scalise, who is the first member of leadership to call me and say, I want to support this effort and ensure that we can increase our numbers. Because as you know, Martha, we are at a crisis level. We have 13 women in the Republican conference.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: You went from 23 to 13 and Republicans. And the Democrats went from like something 60 something to 80, 89, I think. Ann, so, do the guys in your party not get it? Did they not get what the problem is?

WAGNER: They need to get it or we won't have the majority again. We have to. I get it. Elise gets it, a number of them do. And they are supportive of our efforts to renew and reinvigorate the suburban caucus, which has been dead in the Republican Party and the Congress for 10 years. Is what my focus is going to be.

We have to get back to those kitchen table issues, things that are important that make the lives of families easier, better. Things like a paid family leave, workplace flexibility. Things like making sure that in healthcare that pre-existing conditions are in fact codified and protected.

There can be things from infrastructure to transportation, workforce flexibility, so many issues. That it's not just suburban women that we underperformed with, Martha. We underperformed with suburban men and with suburban independents.

So, if we are going to be a majority party which I know we can be again, I know we can get these voters back. We have to have an agenda which starts with our suburban caucus and put that forward so that we've got something to run on and something to offer to the American public.

MACCALLUM: Half a minute. What do you think about Nancy Pelosi, do you think -- and do you think the government is going to shut down?

STEFANIK: Well, I don't support a government shutdown. Our job is to do the people's work. I do think Nancy Pelosi is struggling to get the votes she needs for speaker. I think it clearly shows that there is a generational shift happening on the Democratic side, I think this new pledge that she has been forced to take regarding term limit shows that she is going into the speakership as a fairly weak speaker, if she can even get the votes.

But in terms of our work that needs to be done, we just past the farm bill today and I am confident we will come to a deal and avoid a government shutdown, and we are part of the common-sense voices to ensure that we are doing our business in Congress.

WAGNER: While still making sure that we secure the border.

STEFANIK: Absolutely.

WAGNER: We have -- our safety and security in that of our families and our districts is important. It's an important issue in my district and I will tell you, we have got to do something about border security. So, hopefully, we will get those done.

MACCALLUM: Congresswomen, thank you. Good to see both of you. Thanks for being here tonight. So, coming up, the next part of my interview with -- coming up tomorrow, actually, is a Democratic congresswoman that I sat down with today. Five of them, and you'll hear their story tomorrow. And then tonight, coming up, part two of my sit down interview with Congressman Trey Gowdy as he prepares to leave D.C.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: You are leaving Washington, in part you've suggested, because there is a frustration with--

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Turning now to part two of my exclusive exit interview with Congressman Trey Gowdy, who is opening up about everything from his trademark congressional grilling to what life beyond the beltway. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: As you get ready to make this huge change in your life and leave Washington, one of the things you will be remembered for are some pretty testy exchanges that you had with people in this room that we are sitting in. One of them was with Peter Strzok.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOWDY: So, we'll stop it, you were speaking on behalf of the American people, is that correct?

PETER STRZOK, FIRED FBI AGENT: I don't recall writing that text.

(CROSSTALK)

GOWDY: Well, if you deny writing the text--

STRZOK: What I can tell you is that text in no way suggested that I or the FBI would take any action to influence the candidacy of--

(CROSSTALK)

GOWDY: Agent Strzok, that is a fantastic answer to a question nobody asked.

STRZOK: If you want to represent what you said accurately, I'm happy to answer that question but I don't appreciate what was originally said being changed.

GOWDY: I don't give a damn what you appreciate, Agent Strzok. I don't appreciate having an FBI agent with an unprecedented level of animus working on two major investigations during 2016.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: It didn't seem like you liked him very much.

GOWDY: You are a keen observer of human nature. There was a young lady sitting in front of my wife and I in church Sunday. His father is Jim Lenneman, who is an FBI agent that I worked with for a number of years. When I think of the FBI, I think of people like Jim Lenneman, and Steve Moore, and (Inaudible) and Martial Robichaud who never, ever would have said or done the things that Peter Strzok said and did.

So, he is not reflective of the FBI that I worked with, and he is not reflective of the FBI that you and I deserve. My only real regret is that I wasn't tougher on him.

MACCALLUM: with regard to your exchanges with James Comey, you asked him about Hillary Clinton, whether or not she had sent classified e-mails, whether or not thousands of those appeared to have disappeared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOWDY: Secretary Clinton said there was nothing mark classified on her e- mail either sent or received. Was that true?

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: That's not true.

GOWDY: Secretary Clinton said all work-related e-mails were return to the State Department. Was that true?

COMEY: No, we found work-related e-mails thousands that were not returned.

GOWDY: Secretary Clinton said her lawyers read every one of the e-mails and were overly inclusive. Did her lawyers did the e-mail content individually?

COMEY: No.

GOWDY: Well, in the interest of time and because I have a plane to catch up tomorrow afternoon, I'm not going to go through any more of the false statements.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: You felt that he didn't do a thorough investigation of that, and you try to get him to admit that in this room.

GOWDY: I want to be fair, it is always easy to look back and see what an investigator should have done. I am and will always be troubled by the fact that he was drafting an exoneration memo before 24 witnesses have been interview, including her.

I will always be troubled by the fact that her chief of staff said before her interview that the only crime she could even theoretically be charged with is false statement. They'd already made up their minds. We will not survive if people think that there is a different justice system for the rich and the famous and the powerful than for some, you know, private in the army who may have also mishandled classified information. That's the beauty of us is that lady wears a blindfold.

MACCALLUM: Any regrets about going after anybody in this room that you went too hard?

GOWDY: A couple, a couple honestly.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Such as?

GOWDY: Not that I went too hard. There was a DHS hearing on visas and there was a second amendment component to it, and it's not the woman's fault that they sent her. I never raised my voice, it's just in hindsight, was she the best witness for me to use, to quiz about whether or not there is any other fact pattern where the government takes your right then you have to petition?

It is good to remember -- actually, it's helpful to have a wife and kids, and it is good to remember that other people have families, too. And while this may be a sport for some of us and we can go eat dinner that night and not get our feelings hurt, for some of the witnesses, this will be their only moment on YouTube. It will be their only moment on television, and did you treat them fairly?

And I think on balance, I did, or I tried to, and there were a couple of occasions that if I had to do it all over again, I would've asked the same questions but it would've directed it to another witness.

MACCALLUM: You are leaving Washington, in part, you've suggested because there is a frustration with the way things work here. What's the fundamental flaw?

GOWDY: Human nature. The fundamental flaw is that compromise has an incredibly small constituency and we have bought into the notion that you can make transformative change with 51 percent of your fellow citizens.

Democracy is supposed to be tough. I mean, it's supposed to be tough, but I don't think it is supposed to be dysfunctional. When I mentioned human nature, I would like to see us apply the same rules to our friends as we do to our enemies.

If we were really curious about this administration doing something, we should be equally curious when our own administration does it, and when winning becomes the ultimate objective--

MACCALLUM: Yes.

GOWDY: -- then you become a relativist, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing that.

MACCALLUM: What was the message of the midterms?

GOWDY: Boy. Unmet expectations. Careful how you frame issues, that rhetoric matters. I think, I think if you were to lay out a policy position of Republicans, I think you would find maybe half and a slightly more than half would say, OK, we are with you. When you factor in how we come across sometimes, I think particularly among female voters, they say, I don't care how good your ideas are, you don't seem like a very good person. And I think that.

So, I think what you believe and how you communicated are equally important and we need to do much better job on how we communicate.

MACCALLUM: So, any regrets about your decision to leave?

GOWDY: No, ma'am. No.

MACCALLUM: What's next for you?

GOWDY: I will practice law in South Carolina with a firm that I have a history with, and more importantly, with two lawyers that I have worked with over the last couple of years and I am to the point in life where who I do things with matters to me every bit as much as what I do. And when you find people of unassailable character that you enjoy being around, I would rather dig ditches with (Inaudible) than practice law with people that I don't know and like and respect.

So, we are going to practice law, I'm going to shock the world and write another book with Tim Scott, so.

MACCALLUM: About?

GOWDY: Hopefully about him, he's a lot more interesting than I am. But I think -- Tim wants me to write a book about how to ask questions. How to get -- how to -- how to elicit the truth with asking questions, and I want him to write a book about his life and how his upbringing influences his political orthodoxy.

We'll teach a class together. Tim and I taught a class at Clemson for students. He's great, he's the nicest teacher in the world and I--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Am not?

GOWDY: Well, I like the Socratic method. I mean, these are freshman in college. They don't know what the Socratic method is. And so, I've got to dial it back a little bit. And just be a better husband, a better father. You know, both of our kids are at home now and they are going to be starting their careers.

I think our daughter is going to go to law school, God save us all if that happens. My son finished law school, but he is going to go into real estate. So, just be a better husband, a better father. I've got one-third of life.

MACCALLUM: You said once that a federal judgeship checked all of your boxes.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am.

MACCALLUM: Is that still true?

GOWDY: It did. And Lindsey and Tim laid it right in front of me. They said, we have two openings. Do you want it? And the person who knows me the best in life, who also doesn't follow politics, is my wife. And she said, you will be lonely, you like being around people. You like being an advocate, and I said thanks but no thanks, and then Lindsey called back and said, you got to be kidding? This is what you've always wanted, right here.

And then Don McGahn called, the president's former lawyer, are you sure? And I said, not only am I sure, I'm at peace. And they filled it. The lord has a sense of humor, they filled it with a guy that's been a friend of mine for 25 years that will be a fantastic judge and it work out great for both of us.

MACCALLUM: Ever run for office again?

GOWDY: Never. I will get back into politics if Tim Scott runs for president, and he says, look, I need you to go to Iowa or New Hampshire and knock on doors, which you probably won't because I'd hurt him, but to support, you know, John Radcliffe ran for governor of Texas and he said, come help me. I would, but you'll never see me on the ballot again.

MACCALLUM: Well, Trey Gowdy, thank you very much. We have enjoyed having you on the show and covering these stories with you, and we wish you the very best.

GOWDY: Thank you, and I appreciate the professionalism and fairness with which you've always treated me.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much.

GOWDY: Yes, ma'am.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: My thanks to him for sitting down with us. Three people that I like and respect would dig ditches with, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: You are leaving Washington in part, you've suggested because there's a frustration with the way things work here. What's the fundamental flaw?

GOWDY: Human nature. The fundamental flaw is that compromise has an incredibly small constituency, and we have bought into the notion that you can make transformative change with 51 percent of your fellow citizens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: Outgoing Congressman Trey Gowdy on what he sees as the fundamental flaw. There are several things probably.

Here now to react to that exit interview today, Charlie Hurt, Chris Stirewalt, Richard Fowler. Charlie, your thoughts?

CHARLIE HURT, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I think that it's a sad time that you have a guy like Trey Gowdy, who is the absolute best that you could have in Washington. He is motivated for all the right reasons. I think the fact that he's leaving at any time is a terrible thing.

It's a loss to us, but especially right now as we are going to be going into the next two years it's going to be pretty ugly time. Having a smart legal mind, a smart, fair, serious legal mind like Trey Gowdy for Republicans or anywhere in Washington for that matter. It's going to be sorely missed.

MACCALLUM: Chris, despite the thing, he just met the president like two days ago, had never met him.

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: And I think is very much by design. I don't think he wanted to get sucked into you see people like Mark Meadows and others who get on the roly-poly here where, well, am I going to be the chief of staff, am I coming in to do this, get sucked in.

I don't think he wanted to be lobbied, I don't think he wanted to get sucked into the tractor beam, he wanted to do his own thing, and also this is really important because -- I don't know what the Republicans are going to do about this.

He played an almost indispensable role as the go-between from the sort of conspiracy theorists to the deep state sympathizers to the U.S. Department of Justice. He was viewed as an honest broker because of the way he conducted himself, because of his integrity, because of his fundamental decency and patriotism, he was seen by people in all of those groups as being fair-minded. Without him, I don't know how they hold it together because he was really the linchpin that kept us from going off the rails a bunch of times.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, as you said, he was very generous really with Comey for a long time.

STIREWALT: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Than giving him the better (Inaudible) than he has been with Mueller.

STIREWALT: But he was also very generous when people got out over their skis, when Jason Chaffetz first but then certainly under, what's his name from California.

MACCALLUM: Isaac.

STIREWALT: Nunes.

MACCALLUM: Nunes.

STIREWALT: Under Nunes and others. When things were getting out of hand pretty fast, he was able to keep them back while also pushing the FBI forward. He did a masterful job. He will be badly missed by his party and I would say bye everybody else in Washington.

MACCALLUM: Richard.

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there is something remarkable in this interview that we saw early with the segment with the two congresswomen. When we talked about how Republicans say things, not what they say, it's how they say it.

And I think if you look at this past midterm election, I think it's very important as Republicans go into this new Congress as they focus on how they say things to the American voter and how they win back suburban women, which they have lost. And I think part of it is talking about your policies in a new and innovative weight and changing the course which they are currently on.

MACCALLUM: Yes. He said it sometimes how we come across, Charlie.

HURT: Yes. And he is -- and Chris is exactly right about so much that. But he was also a guy that believed in trying to find compromise but without giving a principal. And that's where a lot of politicians in Washington have blown themselves up.

STIREWALT: What's he going to do with his hair now? This is what I want to know. Now that he's not going to be on TV all the time, he can finally have the hairstyle he wants and we are going to miss it. I feel let down.

MACCALLUM: It took a while.

Yes, exactly.

MACCALLUM: Figured it out, everybody figures it out, right. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Good to be with all of you tonight. Good to be in Washington. That's our story from D.C. on this busy Wednesday. We'll see you back again tomorrow night in New York. Tucker is up next. 
 
Content and Programming Copyright 2018 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2018 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.