President ignoring lessons from botched ObamaCare rollout?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," November 4, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, and Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."


PERINO: The ObamaCare rollout continues to disappoint at every turn. Something Peggy Noonan spoke about yesterday.


PEGGY NOONAN, WALL STREET JOURNAL: There's nothing to say about ObamaCare except from the moment the site debuted, straight through to the point that the American people day by day started learning how ObamaCare was changing their lives and canceling their coverage and changing it, it has just been a disaster. I've never seen a story quite like this.


PERINO: How bad has it gotten?

Former Obama Press Secretary Robert Gibbs was asked about the misleading message of you can keep your insurance if you want to and he had to call a spade a spade.


ROBERT GIBBS, FORMER OBAMA PRESS SECRETARY: I don't recall significant discussions around some of the verbiage on this to be 100 percent honest with you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But do you agree it was a wrong move?

GIBBS: Oh, certainly.


PERINO: One respected D.C. journalist, Ron Fournier, took it a step further, offering a stinging indictment of the Obama administration's practices that led to this. He wrote, quote, "Insularity, incompetence and deception doomed the launch of the Affordable Care Act. As long as the president sticks with the team that failed the country and lied, it is fair to assume that he hasn't learned the most basic lessons from the launch."

Eric, this weekend, front page story of "The Wall Street Journal" on Saturday and then "Washington Post" on Sunday. It became quite clear, and they didn't even really try to defend it, that politics trumped policy and truth in the lead up, in the rollout of ObamaCare.

BOLLING: Exactly what I wrote right there, politics trumped --

PERINO: We think alike.

BOLLING: Absolutely. So, I spent the whole weekend, "Wall Street Journal", "Washington Post," I read a lot of stuff. "Forbes", but look at what I found.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Boring weekend.


BOLLING: No, no, I was consuming everything I could because this was important and the public wants to know ways going on.

Two things came clear. Number one, this was Obama's baby. He wanted this Web site up and running and it was going to be his shining moment, his shining accomplishment. The other thing, that was it, politics overrule practicality because it wasn't ready.

As recent as mid-2011, CGI, CGI Federal, which is the Canadian firm. It's the American subsidiary of CGI, the Canadian group, was hired to come on and get ObamaCare up and running. This was really important. He came across this -- I call this a smoking gun. This was in "The Washington Post" blog about four or five clicks in.

What it is, it's a letter, an e-mail from CGI to CMS. Now, CMS is the group that was charged with bringing the ObamaCare Web site up and running. The group within ObamaCare, that's the Center for Medicaid and Medicare Services. Bear with me, one second.

Look, they told them that there -- this is August 17th, six weeks before the launch, six weeks, after three years of this, there were only 55 percent ready to go. They weren't even close for that thing to start and they said --

BECKEL: How do you find that in all those things are wiped out?

PERINO: Because they delete.

BOLLING: They just redacted napes. But it's CGI federal. This is going right to --

PERINO: So they knew?

BOLLING: They knew.

PERINO: But they didn't tell the president or they told him --

BOLLING: But according to a lot of the things you're reading, President Obama knew, his staff knew. It was so important for them to get that thing running. They just leaned on CGI to get it out there.


PERINO: So, when President Obama said that nobody is more mad at me, who is he mad at, himself? Ezekiel Emanuel, he was on Chris Wallace yesterday on "FOX NEWS SUNDAY'. Interesting exchange.

Take a look at this.



CHRIS WALLACE, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY" ANCHOR: (INAUDIBLE) question. Are those people going to be able to keep their coverage as the president promised?

EZEKIEL EMANUEL, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: The president -- look, the law does not say, "Sears, drop coverage." Sears decides what's good for Sears. The law doesn't say to the insurance industry, "You drop coverage." The industry decides how it's going to make money.

When private companies decide that they're going to drop people or put them in the exchange, you blame President Obama. He is not responsible for that.


PERINO: Greg, you were watching that. What did you think?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Well, first off, that was the best interview that anyone's done on Ezekiel Emanuel. I thought Chris Wallace nailed it, because Ezekiel has the smug look of someone who just ruined a public bathroom. It's his own path of destruction, seemingly unaffected his life. He's a bureaucratic version of hurricane Katrina.

And ObamaCare in a way is a natural disaster. It's an oil spill. Instead of ducks, it's human beings getting soaked. There's no way to get them clean.


PERINO: Destroy the bathroom.


GUTFELD: That's true. He destroyed a bathroom that he didn't have to clean. None of these experts are using ObamaCare. So, it's -- in effect, it's their public bathroom. They can say, oh, you can use it.

PERINO: Somebody else will have to clean it up.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: Bob, was it taken this weekend that the administration, the White House, did lie to the American people?

BECKEL: I don't know. I spent every waking hour myself reading about this and absorbing everything I could about it.

BOLLING: You should.

BECKEL: I didn't spend a minute on it.

No, listen, did we think that they lie, did they misled. My assumption is, you look at somebody certainly did, no question about that. But I still get back to this point that Ezekiel did not quite get it outright. But if you had a policy and you demanded that you keep it with the insurance companies, you would have had it. Insurance company changed it on you.

PERINO: That is what the White House has tried, Kimberly, over the last several days, which is try to say -- don't blame us, all we're trying to do is provide insurance for everybody. Blame the insurance companies because they're the ones who changed the policy.

But they changed it because they were asked to and required to under the law.

BECKEL: They weren't required, that's an important distinction.

GUILFOYLE: This is part of the Dana Perino psychic news network prediction, because you said they were going to say this exact thing -- demonize the insurance companies. So, it's always someone else's fault. But the problem for them is that the facts smack of something completely different.

When you see these redacted copies, when you see reports coming out that they new ahead of time, that's malfeasance on their part and I think it's fraud. When you sit there and tell the American people that they can keep their insurance, these rates are going to be lower and those aren't the facts, and they knew them ahead of time, they are acting like criminals.

BECKEL: Just so we're clear on this, they were not required to change these policies. They were grandfathered in. They could have kept it that way.

BOLLING: You know, it's disingenuous to use that line because as Chris Wallace pressed Ezekiel Emanuel, he said, well, no one said that. No one said if a co-pay goes up by five bucks over the next three years --

BECKEL: Right.

BOLLING: You would not --


BECKEL: Terrible job of communications, no question about it. Nonetheless --

BOLLING: Isn't it a terrible job of communicating, otherwise known as lying?

BECKEL: No, the fact of the matter is, if I had an insurance policy and I said to the insurance company, do not change this, I won't pay an increase in co-pay. Nothing would have changed. I could have kept that.

GUILFOYLE: I just don't buy that. That's far too innocent when you look at the facts and evidence we have now. They're not innocent. They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway because it's all about politics.

BECKEL: I'm talking about policies.

GUILFOYLE: I know. What I'm telling is that, you want to blame the insurance companies, you want to -- why don't you actually just look at this guy, his administration, this was his baby, this is his legacy. He made promises that he, in fact, knew were false to the American people, and we deserve and expect better. It's as simple as that.

BECKEL: With single payer, this wouldn't happen.

GUTFELD: They're not going to blame Obama because this is as close as you get to an actual organized religion in which President Obama is god and his apologists are doing nothing but speaking in tongues. This is all they do.

And so, you go after doctors who are getting hammered. You go after insurance companies that have extremely slim margins and who are just average Americans who work in small towns.

A lot of the people demonized insurance companies because you live in the coast. You don't see these people work all over the country and they help people.

I love my insurance agent, the person that helped me with my house and helped me with my car. They were nice people. They were people. They're not awful people.

But Obama continues to throw so many people under the bus that there's more people under the bus than in it and ObamaCare doesn't cover people hit by the buses.


PERINO: They were -- they were on the run yesterday. David Axelrod appeared with David Gregory on "Meet the Press." And this was their exchange.


DAVID GREGORY, "MEET THE PRESS" MODERATOR: You were in the White House. You were advising the president on the kinds of things he should say. Why did not you or somebody else say to him, Mr. President, don't say, no matter what, you're going to keep your health care plan? Was that bad practice --

DAVID AXELROD, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISOR: Well, hindsight is 20/20 because --

GREGORY: But that's why you're there, is to say it's hindsight, you shouldn't do this.

AXELROD: But there's a small group of people, David -- the vast majority of Americans, that statement will hold true. For this small group of Americans, it hasn't.


PERINO: Eric, without the small group of Americans, they're saying, oh, it's just 5 percent of people. But those are actually the paying customers, the insured, the responsible people, and now they're at risk of being uninsured.

BOLLING: And he's wrong. David Axelrod is going to have to come back and eat those words. Hopefully, David Gregory holds him to that, because what we're finding out now, we're hearing more and more. We're talking right now about 14 million people who are on the individual mandate who may lose coverage.

There are numbers coming out now there could be 50 million, 60 million, even higher, 70 million --


BOLLING: Bob, I'm not making this stuff up. This is coming out from people who are paid to look into this. That you may have 50 million or 60 million people or 70 million thrown off their employer coverage because it's too darn expensive.

BECKEL: OK, that's --

BOLLING: You're talking about 100 million people.

BECKEL: One thing we should keep in mind here is, we keep talking about -- you can keep your doctor if you want. Your doctor doesn't have to keep you. Let's remember that.

The doctors -- if they don't like your insurance plan, they can get rid of them.


BOLLING: -- about that. You're talking changing the subject.

BECKEL: I know, I was trying to do that.

BOLLING: Right. So, if the employer says, you know, it's too darn expensive to keep these people on ObamaCare, we're going to throw you off. We'll take the penalty instead.

GUILFOYLE: Now, he's blaming the doctor, the insurance companies.

PERINO: That was part of the controversy today, that continued this morning, which I think, look, the White House, political folks, communication folks, have already put a spot on the wall, they continue to rub it. So, they make it worse.

BECKEL: What was that? A spot on the wall, they rubbed it?

PERINO: Yes, you know, like, if you rub a spot on the wall, you make it worse, that was my point.

BECKEL: Never done that before.

PERINO: So, this is this morning -- Think Progress, which if you're not signed up on the liberal blogs, you don't get it. But if you're on left side, it goes around like wildfire.

Dan Pfeiffer of the White House communications office tweeted, "The real reason that the cancer patient writing in today's `Wall Street Journal' lost her insurance." It linked to a blog that basically said this whole thing of blaming the insurance company.

Her point was that the insurance company -- the insurance that she had was perfect for her. She has stage 4 cancer. It covered different doctors at different hospitals and that's how she's been able to stay alive.

My point to them from a communications standpoint is, Greg, it's never a very good idea to start attacking the victim. Even if they think they're actually attacking the insurance company. It looks like they were being insensitive to the cancer patient.

GUTFELD: Well, a strong defense is a good offense and these guys are really offensive. And that's why they see no problem going after her instead of Obama.

Why was this missed? This whole story, which has been out since 2010, why was this entire story except by FNC and conservative blogs? And it's very simple. Media bias provides a blinder that obscures the flaws to your beliefs. It's the morphine that deadens the pain of your own mistakes.

So, there's no way that the media could see this until now.

BECKEL: Do you see -- seriously, did you see in 2010 -- did anybody in this country -- very few people were aware of this.

GUTFELD: Oh, my God.

BECKEL: That you couldn't keep your --

BOLLING: Are you out of your mind?

GUILFOYLE: Bob, where have you been? That was the reason Republicans won in 2010.

BECKEL: I'm talking about the majority of the American people.

BOLLING: Can I just throw this out here? I'm a conspiracy theorist. The reason why Obama delayed the employer mandate is they knew it was going to be 60 million or 70 million people thrown off the rolls and they didn't want it in an election year.

BECKEL: There's an alien in --


GUILFOYLE: That's not even a conspiracy theory.

BECKEL: What, the alien?

GUILFOYLE: Please, that makes perfect political sense. Why would you do that? That's like taking a punch (ph) to the face --

BECKEL: That alien does not have insurance.

PERINO: Our last point about political sense, Bob, even you would appreciate this -- some of the ads I saw today targeting red state Democrats saying, why was it that Senator Pryor in Arkansas defended and repeated the ObamaCare lie? That is very effective tagging. And will help the Republicans in 2014.


BECKEL: But I'll tell you, it's a strong statement to say the president of the United States is a liar. I hope you all can feel comfortable saying that.

GUTFELD: I can. He's a liar.

BECKEL: I wouldn't say that to any president.

GUTFELD: He's a liar.

Also the media -- the scandal shows what the media will do to get their guy in. They kept this cat in the bag. Now that the cat's out of the bag, it doesn't matter because their cat is in the White House.

PERINO: And you wish you would have bought a dog.

GUTFELD: Exactly. The dogs are much nicer.

PERINO: All right. We're going to talk about that because up next, "The New York Times" says President Obama simply misspoke on ObamaCare. Greg is going to get "The New York Times" straight on that later.

Tomorrow is Election Day. It's Monday. I've got a case of the Mondays. We're going to look at some key races, including New Jersey where Chris Christie is expected to win big.

GUTFELD: Are you Garfield?

PERINO: Can Republicans learn something from the Garden State governor's campaign? We'll debate it, ahead on "The Five".



GUTFELD: So, in the suck up Olympics, "The New York Times" gets the gold for redefining lying as misspeaking, dismissing President Obama's dishonesty as no big deal.

He misspoke -- try to use that in a marriage. When I said I wouldn't cheat, I was talking about dudes.

Misspeaking is when you say elephant instead of elevator. And Obama's lie is that elephant in an elevator. There's more room for anything else.

But at least "The Times" admits ObamaCare will not bend to individual need. I quote them, "Maternity care for those who will not have children is a sore point."

It's more than a sore point, you sexist pigs. What if women had to pay for prostate exams or vasectomies or Bob's Viagra? He would be pleased, if not his exhausted.


GUTFELD: But for "The Times," this idiocy is just one price you pay for universal coverage. We were just human speed bumps on the road to utopia. ObamaCare is the hammer in this hammer and sickle.

As Bill Maher notes, if it's for the greater good, as defined by him, of course, who cares if the president lies. Any student of history knows where that leads -- and it's bad. Cuba, bad. North Korea, bad. East Germany, bad.

Oh, I wait, I just realized, for progressives, that's progress. Our bad is their good, where success is measured by government's grip on freedom.

Finally, do you know what "The Times" picked as their cover story on health this Sunday? Broccoli. Yes, broccoli. That's a big health scoop.

Which leads me to ask, does ObamaCare cover getting your head out of your ass?

GUILFOYLE: Not sure about that, but broccoli is delicious.

BECKEL: Does ObamaCare cover Viagra? Does anybody know?

GUTFELD: I have no idea, but the fact is --

BECKEL: Because it's expensive.

GUTFELD: -- the biggest story in health is ObamaCare, and "The New York Times" and their special health supplement puts broccoli on the cover.

BECKEL: No, it's the worst vegetable imaginable.

GUILFOYLE: No, it's not. It's actually the best.

BECKEL: Oh, it's the worst. I mean, it may be good for you, but it's the worst possible.

GUTFELD: Cover it in cheese, Bob.

BECKEL: Oh, God, it's horrible.

GUTFELD: Everything in cheese is better, including cheese.

BECKEL: Whoever eats broccoli has got to be out of their mind. It tastes like turf from a football stadium. I mean, it's just horrible.

BOLLING: Is that worse than CBS News reporting that when six people signed up for ObamaCare the first day, they called it off to a slow start? Right? No, that happened.


GUILFOYLE: That's just so crazy. They don't care. You don't understand, they have a loose relationship with the truth and they like it like that. They're like, we're keeping it. We don't care. If we say it, then it's true. They don't care what the reality or the facts are. That's what's so disturbing about this. And why are more people not upset and outrage about this?

GUTFELD: Because they don't read "The New York Times".

BECKEL: One of the things about it, although, you know, if it were up to me, we have, as you know, a single-payer, I keep continuing to say that.

GUTFELD: Socialized medicine.

BECKEL: That's fine, whatever you want to call it.

But the expectations of ObamaCare are so low now with everybody beating up on it so badly, I will guarantee you by this time in the spring, it will not nearly be as negative as people think it is because, (a), not that many people will be affected by it and, secondly, these stories are going to run out.

I mean, how many times are you going to run this story?

GUILFOYLE: There's no more bottom to it. It's so bad --

BECKEL: Oh, no, there's a bottom. Trust me, there's a bottom.

GUTFELD: Bob, that's like saying a year after hurricane Sandy, we won't be talking about hurricane Sandy as much.

BECKEL: Yes, that's correct.

BOLLING: You made a statement, you said not that many people will be affected by it. What do you mean by that?

BECKEL: What I mean is, when they find out that the people who lose - - when you say 60 million. I don't buy into that number. A much more smaller number of people who will, quote, "lose" their policies.

And the people who do get new policies will get better policies.

BOLLING: And who's going to paying for it at all?

BECKEL: Well, probably, you, me.

GUTFELD: Dana --

BECKEL: If it were up to me, it would be paid by all of us together collectively as a family.

BOLLING: Correct.

GUILFOYLE: That was heartwarming.

PERINO: I think that the fact that "The New York Times" editorial which is infuriating every single day of the week but in particular on Sundays, that became a story itself yesterday, with people who are watching us, talking about it all day long. And the public editor of "The New York Times" having to actually ask for an explanation from Rosenthal, which he got, sort of half-baked.

The media seems to not be willing to accept this lie. When the White House blamed the video for Benghazi, we were like the broken records. We were the only ones talking about that. They seemed to be willing to accept that one. This one, not so much.

GUTFELD: Yes. Suppose if we got to the -- if we had called him out first, would the media follow it along? It had to be the other guys who got there first for it to be OK. It makes you wonder, though, what does -- Kimberly, what does president have to do to be accurately criticized by "The New York Times"? Does he have to kidnap a bus load of orphans?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: What does he have to do?

GUILFOYLE: Why the children, Greg?

GUTFELD: Because they deserve it.

GUILFOYLE: Listen, there isn't anything. It doesn't matter. You don't understand, this is the guy who puts out the most predator drone strikes, yet he's the Nobel Peace Prize winner. Hello, they don't care.

Reality doesn't match with their reporting. They don't care. They're not going to criticize the guy.

BECKEL: Well, he'd just taken a few terrorists out on that --

GUILFOYLE: But, you're missing the point, Bob, he's not the king of peace in reality, but no one cares about what the truth is. They disregard it in its entirety, whether it's Benghazi, whether it's Obama care.

BECKEL: How do you know his aides didn't tell him about the grandfather clause and that's what he was using?

PERINO: Right.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, that's a good one.

PERINO: I do want to say that Obama care's the one thing that's been able to unite the left and the right. There's actually bipartisan opposition to the current state affairs. Where it ends -- where it goes from here, I don't know.

BECKEL: It will be delayed, I guarantee you.

GUTFELD: You know what has grandfather claws? A really old cat.

GULILFOYLE: Oh my goodness.


BECKEL: When I said grandfather clause, I metaphor is what I --


BECKEL: Yes, I got you.

GUTFELD: I have to show you this great picture. Where was this, Tennessee? Did you see this?

BOLLING: This is genius, by the way.

GUTFELD: Brian Kelsey -- is he a state senator? -- handed Kathleen Sebelius "Website for Dummies."

PERINO: That's terrible.

BOLLING: So, I was thinking about this for a second. You know what that picture represents? Someone who is so -- like, Greg, if it were you or me or anywhere at this table and someone tried to hand us that, we would look at them and go, are you out of your mind, I'm not taking that.

She is so in the weeds right now, she is so lost, she takes it and pictures are snapped with her holding "Websites for Dummies." You must be kidding. They really need to get rid of her, clean house. Get rid of CGI. By the way, CGI, I've been reading on CGI as well, wow, are they lost. They are completely in the weeds.

In November, good luck, there's no chance --

PERINO: I had a dream about Sebelius on Sunday night.

GUTFELD: You have weird dream also.

PERINO: She was in a floral pantsuit and I thought she was the queen of England.

BECKEL: OK, on that note --


GUILFOYLE: Trying to get a job with Hillary Clinton 2016.

BECKEL: Please, it's on Jasper in a second. Let's just move on.

GUTFELD: All right. So, we move on. All right. Coming up, some important races on this Election Day eve, including here in New York City where Sandinista-loving mayoral candidate Bill de Blasio --

GUILFOYLE: Oh, gosh.


GUTFELD: It's true.

GUILFOYLE: It's really a disaster.

GUTFELD: He's up 40 percent over the Republican. The Republican is that guy on right, Joe.


GUTFELD: Thank you. So, that's the problem.

What does President Obama -- no, the problem is I don't know his name. The problem -- what is Obama doing campaigning with him? What, you're surprised?

Don't forget to check out our new Web site at -- I wrote that tease, too --

PERINO: You did worse than me.

GUTFELD: -- slash "The Five".


BOLLING: Welcome back, everybody.

First, Tuesdays in November typically reserved for elections. And three off-year elections tomorrow are sure to give some insight as to where the country's headed politically. In New Jersey, Governor Chris Christie's trying to prove he has the chops for the stage in 2016, with a likely landslide win for the Republican in a very blue state.

Question: Should the GOP take another look at Chris Christie? He's been under fire from the far right.

Dana, your thoughts.

PERINO: Yes, I think they're going to have to look at him. New Jersey, it's pretty remarkable. When you saw him get elected in 2010, which was a big Republican wave during the midterms. And everyone thought that was a fluke actually.

Now, he's set to win tomorrow night by possibly up to 40 points. It's a remarkable re-election effort in New Jersey. Does that translate in Arizona, South Carolina, Alabama? I don't know.

BOLLING: What are your thoughts, quick?

GUILFOYLE: I don't think it translates state to state like that. I would agree, I think this is kind of a unique situation with Christie. It will be interesting to see where the polls come out given kind of the tumultuous nature --

BOLLING: Quick thought, does a 40-point win in a blue state --

BECKEL: Yes, you can't separate New Jersey without talking Virginia at the same time. This is the first type Republicans have gotten more than 50 percent of the vote since '88.

GUTFELD: For Christie's future, political purity is great for your ego, but it's not great for elections. I like Christie. I think he's got a great personality. Up against Hillary, she has the warmth of a tin toilet seat. People will like -- the more people that see Christie will like him. The more people that know Hillary, will dislike her.

BOLLING: All right. Topic two, the New York City mayoral race where stuff's getting weirder and weirder. Ultra progressive Bill de Blasio has opened a 40-point lead over Republican Joe Lhota.

Question: is New York so devoid of political options, a socialist holds a commanding lead for mayor in NYC?

GUTFELD: This is amazing. But only in New York can a guy that, you know, hung out with Sandinistas, honeymooned in Cuba, do this well.

Big point, though, New York City has witnessed a massive drop in murders. It's unbelievable. They may break all records, saving minority lives. It's an incredible story.

This guy does not like the New York PD. He could turn back the clock essentially electing de Blasio is like after getting cured of lung cancer, taking up smoking. This is a bad thing for New York City.

BOLLING: Can I hold up "The Post" cover? "Back in the USSR."

Reason for it, he's been known to hang with Sandinistas. He's been known to go to Soviet Union, and he honeymooned, K.G., in Cuba.

BECKEL: Which is not making assaults with somebody.

GUILFOYLE: I mean, look, I don't want to criticize anyone's honeymoon or honeymoons --


GUILFOYLE: But I've got to tell you, this is very obvious to me what this guy's policies are and his politics so you know what, New York, you're about to get a reckoning.

BECKEL: You had five honeymoons so you probably know something about it.


PERINO: Is he going to win if I could just make a plea that if we could have the off-leash dog park rules extended to 10:00 a.m., you would be thumb --


PERINO: He's going to win anyway.

BECKEL: If Greg had run for mayor, with $10 million, I could have gotten him 45 percent of this race. Flat out got 45 percent.

GUTFELD: The worst mistake I ever made was not run.

GUILFOYLE: Like Mondale?

BOLLING: Ray Kelly. Where were you, ray?


GUILFOYLE: That would have been it.

BOLLING: All right. Topic three, in a race that has tightened considerably in the final hours before voting begins, Democrat Terry McAuliffe leads conservative A.G. Ken Cuccinelli by a slim margin. Question: is the ObamaCare debacle the reason this race has tightened?

Mr. Beckel?

BECKEL: No, it's not. This is an example where the Tea Party is killing the Republican Party. Instead of having to pull up primary with the lieutenant governor, he would have won and would have beaten McAuliffe, who I know very well. He's a good friend of mine. I can't believe he's going to be governor.

And the fact is that the convention, the Tea Party nominated this right wing guy who doesn't stand a chance. It's not close.

GUTFELD: I don't --

BECKEL: Another Tea Party victim.

GUTFELD: Bob does stand a chance. He's down six points. The problem really is the libertarian candidate who has 10 points which he's taking from the Republicans. The option -- the problem with the Republicans is they can't get all these people together. They're not lock step like the left. It would be great for the libertarian candidate to have folded in.

BECKEL: It will be a lot bigger --

PERINO: There was reporting today that said women are going to make the difference in Virginia. Look, that's true everywhere. Since you gave women the vote, that's going to happen in all these states.

GUTFELD: What a mistake.

PERINO: In Virginia, which northern Virginia has changed a lot demographically. The shutdown, the federal government shutdown really pissed them off. I just said that?

GUTFELD: Watch your language.

PERINO: But ObamaCare has enraged everybody. So it might a tighter race than people thought.

BECKEL: You've got a Republican candidate for governor down there that has been so bad with women that -- and also the Hispanic population will vote for McAuliffe, too, maybe 3-1.

BOLLING: Now, let's not forget Terry McAuliffe, there's been -- I don't know, is it accusations or confirmed there was money laundering that had been going on in his past?

PERINO: Lots of accusations.

BECKEL: Somehow, how in the world is a guy like this, how is he leading in Virginia for governor, K.G.?

GUILFOYLE: That's the problem. They need to capitalize on ObamaCare, et cetera. This shouldn't be I think even six percentage points. This was a really good opportunity I think for Cuccinelli to get ahead. Nevertheless, I think given the polling, given 3 percent to 4 percent margin of error depending and turnout, you never know.

Bob, it's not a wash. It's not like New York.

BECKEL: McAuliffe is not winning this race. Cuccinelli is losing because he's a Tea Party candidate, as simple as that.

BOLLING: Well, maybe. But maybe not.

BECKEL: Not maybe. Yes, absolutely.

BOLLING: Any other thoughts? New Jersey? Can we throw this out here?

Everyone's saying the reason why President Obama and the Democrats and Clinton didn't go to New Jersey for Barbara Buono, who's Christie's opponent, because it was a sure loss. They didn't want to waste their type.


BOLLING: But they're spending time with Terry McAuliffe. Good --


PERINO: Well, you have to remember Terry McAuliffe's relationship with the Clintons was of a best friendship. Terry McAuliffe is the best BS-er you'll ever meet in your life. He's an excellent fundraiser, extremely loyal to the Clintons. And I think that's why they went there.

I don't -- Barbara Buono's never been on my radar.

BECKEL: And you watch a future candidate for president of the United States.

GUTFELD: Dana, you said pissed off and BS.

PERINO: I'm having a really bad Monday.

BECKEL: You're really starting to get me upset, being at this table with you.

PERINO: I know.

GUTFELD: You've turned into a salty sailor.

GUILFOYLE: Bob has cleaned himself up.

PERINO: Should I be grounded?


PERINO: I'll go to my room.

BECKEL: Where's your mom? Get that soap out.

BOLLING: All right. We're going to go.

Coming up, this week, the Supreme Court will hear an important case on public prayer. Kimberly will explain the legal battle. And that's next on "The Five".

But before we go, make sure to check our Facebook page at

And whoever changed the tease, I will kill --



GUILFOYLE: Loving the law.

On Wednesday, the Supreme Court is set to hear a landmark case that could influence the role of religious prayer in public forums. The legal battle started in Greece, New York, where two residents, one Jewish, the other an atheist, sued, claiming the opening prayer at the town's legislative session, had Christian references to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Godfather, which they say violated their First Amendment rights.

Now, in a surprise show of solidarity, the Obama administration has joined conservative lawmakers in urging the high court to allow politicians to say prayers during government meetings. This is legally fascinating.

Would you agree, Dana?

PERINO: I do. I think that the administration has been fairly consistent on questions of prayer and, remember, they wanted to take "under God" out of the pledge and the administration was strong on that.

However, I think it is certainly inconsistent with the clash between religious conscience and contraception. When it comes to sex, if sex is involved, the administration says, OK, there's no -- this is where they want to assert the First Amendment right.


PERINO: When it has to do with town hall meetings, it's just not a political fight they want to take. When it comes to reproductive rights, then they get involved.

GUILFOYLE: They get involved.

Eric, what do you make of this, now that there's some solidarity here, coming together? It's political, right? Constituencies that will support establishment of religion.

BOLLING: And we'll go back to the law. The Lemon test, which you probably know --


BOLLING: Lemon versus Kurtzman.


BOLLING: Three purposes. If it meets it, you're allowed to do that. Does it have a secular purpose? Obviously. Must neither advance, nor inhibit religion -- check. Must not result in the excessive entanglement between the government and religion.

So, if the Senate wants to open a session with a prayer, it meets all the criteria, they should be able to do it. Supreme Court should be absolutely OK with this.

GUILFOYLE: But it's interesting, because there's a weird little legal dichotomy in allowing it prior to a meeting but not during it. So, that to me is interesting how they're going to reconcile it.

BOLLING: I'm sorry, does not entanglement, the third of the three?

GUILFOYLE: You know, yes and no. If you're saying it's secular in purpose, how is it not secular in purpose during versus before? It's a little bit where they're drawing a line legally, which fine, that's their job to try to figure it out and space it out like that.

BECKEL: Let's keep in mind that the First Amendment that they lay back on -- they fall back on here for their argument, the people that wrote the First Amendment were in the first congress who opened their Congress with a prayer. So I think frankly it's a little bit of a reach. This has been going on since the beginning of the republic. I suspect it will be forever.



GUTFELD: Yes, you know, I'm of the kind -- I'm always pretty polite. Like when people are praying. Like when you go over to somebody's house and you're into that sort of thing but you don't say, I'm not going to pray. You just do it. It's not like you're giving in, you're just getting along.

And I wish I had all this free time to do all these lawsuits. I don't know how they can do that.

BECKEL: That's what they should do with prayer in school. I'm preparing in school, because you don't have to participate.

GUTFELD: Yes, exactly.

BECKEL: If you take a minute of silent prayer and you can pray or you can look at the girl in front of you. Or you can do what are you want.

But you should be able to have a minute set aside to say a prayer if you want to begin your school day.


PERINO: We should say a prayer before this show.

BOLLING: No, I do it.

GUILFOYLE: We should. It might help. It might.

PERINO: Yes, we could pray for good ratings. Kidding.

GUTFELD: You're an awful person.

PERINO: No, you're supposed to pray for guidance and wisdom.

BOLLING: I think the good news is it's both sides of the aisle, both sides of the pew, which was the tease that they took out, both sides of the pew seem to be OK with this. I mean, does anyone really have a problem with this?

I'm sure the freedom from religion is going to go ape over you know what over this.

BECKEL: You know, I like both sides of the pew. I can't believe they took that out. I mean, it was a great line.


GUTFELD: I mean, in defense of people who might find this to be a problem, if people don't want this in there, they believe it's offensive to atheism, maybe that's part of God's plan. I mean, if you see all injustice in tragedy, it's God's plan. Why isn't it part of God's plan?

PERINO: The lawsuit?


BECKEL: There you go. Just heard from the theologian of "The Five".

GUTFELD: No, I mean, why not?

GUILFOYLE: Now you've done this --

GUTFELD: Why am I relaxing?

BECKEL: I don't know.

GUILFOYLE: Atheist Twitter backlash coming your way, Greg Gutfeld.

All right. Coming up, new developments in the Miami Dolphins bullying story we told you about here on "The Five". A teammate of tackle Jonathan Martin has been suspended for alleged misconduct and there are explosive new reports of threats and racism. Bob has all the details. That's next.

Stay with us.


BECKEL: Now, an update on a story we covered on Friday. The Miami Dolphins suspended lineman Richie Incognito for, quote, "misconduct detrimental to the team." He was reportedly linked to the harassment of teammate and tackle Jonathan Martin. Martin left the team after allegedly his teammates bullied and pulled a cafeteria prank on him, leading Martin to smash his tray and take off.

New reports say racially charged messages may have been part of the problem.

It's amazing how the Dolphins as an organization have changed their tune. At first, it was no big deal. Now, all of a sudden it's a big deal.

Eric, why?

BOLLING: Well, because J-Mart, Jonathan Martin's parents are both lawyers, number one. I'm sure there's a lawsuit on its way.

But the point here is there was more than just the team getting up when Jonathan Martin sat down at the cafeteria table. The team got up and moved. The point is, he's been harassed for a year and a half. For 23 or 24 games which encompasses almost two seasons, he's been harassed.

And then we found out --

BECKEL: Why has he been harassed?

BOLLING: Some of these messages, these emails they've got of him, of Incognito, to -- they're disgusting. I mean, they're awful. God awful and gross.

Look, I come from locker rooms. It's a tough place in the locker room. You got to man up.

But at some point, these are professionals. These guys are paid millions of dollars. Kids look up to you. When this companies out, kids are going to look at the Miami dolphins and go, I'm not sure I like the Dolphins.

BECKEL: I don't understand how that -- he's not a small dude, either. How Martin just to stand up for himself and punch somebody in the nose.

Dana, I know you've been running this story the whole weekend.

PERINO: Hey, well, look, I will say, initially, when we talked about this on Friday, Eric and I were the ones who said, this is terrible. The management initially comes out and says it's not a big deal. I don't understand how they could possibly have to backtrack on that.

It could not be worse coming from the Miami Dolphins. Not because of their sports. I don't care about that in terms of their performance. They're trying to build a new stadium in Miami.

They have a huge public battle on their hands. They need everybody in the city pulling for them. This is exactly the way to lose that stadium bid.

BECKEL: Greg, when you were in the locker room, did you find this kind of harassment?

GUTFELD: Well, it was a week ago until they found me, and I was asked to leave --


GUILFOYLE: That was the girls' locker room.

GUTFELD: The other element to this is that richer players are veterans, would force younger rookies to pay for player meals. No, that's not bullying, that's ObamaCare.

Ladies and gentlemen, politics.

GUILFOYLE: Not in this segment.

BECKEL: Now, you spent a lot of time -- never mind.

GUILFOYLE: Not in locker rooms.

BECKEL: No, you haven't.

What do you think about this from a legal standpoint?

GUILFOYLE: Legally, emotionally, psychologically, I think bullying should never be tolerated. I get it's the NFL. I get it's sports. But that doesn't make it OK.

And think it does set a bad example. For example, if this was happening to him, I think it's important to let the management know, contemporaneously with the event so it can be documented. I mean, that may not be a popular thing to say but --

BECKEL: Let me ask you this question. If Incognito --

GUILFOYLE: I don't think racism is OK. That's the problem.

BECKEL: If he left messages on the machine which apparently said that -- apparently Martin is mixed race and he makes racial comments. This is what's alleged. Is there a race hate crime brewing here?

GUILFOYLE: Well, they're going to have get transcripts and put it in print.

BECKEL: But if there was, would that be --

GUILFOYLE: I think if his parents and his family are motivated enough, they could try to bring a case. But I mean, good luck. I don't think they're going to succeed and I don't think it's going to be good for his NFL career.

BOLLING: Can I just point something out? The locker room -- that's what that is from the very beginning before the game, after the game. You -- there are practical jokes, pranks going on. They'll tie your socks together, all that stuff. This is disgusting, it went on and on.

And to your point, Bob, I never forget, one of my first days in the training pit, I was getting destroyed, bullied like this, made fun of. I'll never forget one day. I'm like, I'm not taking this anymore because this is going to go on forever if I don't. And I went after a guy.

I took him. I threw him out of the pit. I punched him. It cost me $5,000, 5 grand for punching a guy on the trading floor, but I'll tell you what, though --

GUILFOYLE: You were fined --

BOLLING: But it stopped.

PERINO: Spent $5,000 for --


BECKEL: When I was a freshman, they put icy hot in my jock strap.

PERINO: Bob, can I give a PR advice?

GUTFELD: You actually loved it, Bob?

GUILFOYLE: That explains that. It really does, actually.

PERINO: I have one bit of advice. The White House should not get involved in this. Whatever it is that the president's asked about this week, do not get involved.

BECKEL: Yes, I want piece of PR advice for you, which is please don't continue to swear like this --

GUILFOYLE: Stand down.

BECKEL: -- because your image up until recently has been a straightforward, nice woman who doesn't swear a lot.

"One More Thing" is up next.

GUILFOYLE: I'm ready for you.


PERINO: OK, I just learned something that maybe I didn't need to know. I'll keep it to myself.

It's time now for "One More Thing."

Kimberly, she knows, too.

GUILFOYLE: I know, too, it wasn't me or Dana.

GUTFELD: All right.

GUILFOYLE: OK, sorry. Let's look at "Saturday Night Live." Stop, Greg. This is improving (ph), gosh, the grade school.

This is the spoofing of the video -- Elvis video and it's viral video called "The Fox." And it's Kerry Washington, who I love, who plays Olivia Pope on "Scandal." Take a look.


GUILFOYLE: I just love this. I think some women were way too jealous. They shouldn't be so worried about keeping their men.

BECKEL: All right. Five years ago today, one of the great days in American history, Barack Obama was elected the 44th president of the United States. Here's a clip of his victory speech.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is our moment. This is our time, to reclaim the American dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth that out of many we are one, that while we breathe, we hope. And where we are met with cynicism and doubt and those who tell us that we can't, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people -- yes, we can.


BECKEL: Yes, we can, Mr. President. Go ahead.

PERINO: Who's running this thing? Yes, Eric, you're next.

BOLLING: Very quickly. They want to move very fast. Take a look. You will not believe what you hear. Go.


REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: Somebody must be doing something exactly right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But who would be complaining?

ROGERS: Somebody whose privacy was violated. You can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is violated, right? Can you?


BOLLING: I just put that full screen up there. Representative Rogers, did you really say you can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is being violated?

GUILFOYLE: That is so lame.

PERINO: He might have misspoke.

BOLLING: Wow, please correct the record, sir. Please?

PERINO: Greg, you're next.

GUTFELD: All right. This is a new segment I like to call "I hate these people."

All right. This is in "The New York Times." An anonymous person wrote this letter to the etiquette column of "The New York Times." I'm going to read it. "I've done a lot of things to the outside of my home to make a burglar look elsewhere for a likely target. I just realized this means I'm hoping my efforts will make him choose another house in the neighborhood instead of mine. I'm beginning to wonder if this is ethical."

Oh, my God, you make me sick. I hate these people!

PERINO: I agree.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Can you eat next time --

PERINO: I'm going to do mine. I learned this weekend that someone that I really admired passed away. He worked at the 91 Club, a New York fixture. His name is Lorenzo Robinson.

Great guy. He was a reverend and he worked in the men's restroom. He would greet people and talk to them. He met Ronald Reagan. Reagan gave them his cufflinks and he wore them every day for the rest of his life and he will be very missed.

That's it for us on "The Five." Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow.

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