Pelosi blames media for trying to 'undermine' her leadership

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Pelosi blames media for trying to 'undermine' her leadership

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi says press is creating divide over her leading the Democratic Party; reaction and analysis on 'The Five.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 13, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Watters along with Kennedy, Juan Williams, Dana Perino, and Tyrus. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."

A lot of breaking news out of Washington, first up, the FBI finally tells disgraced anti-Trump official Peter Strzok, you're fired. The now former agent played a lead role in both the Russia and Hillary Clinton email investigations, and Omarosa is continuing her furious attacks on the Trump White House after making explosives claims in a new book and releasing secret audio recordings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OMAROSA MANIGAULT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE: He doesn't even know what's happening in his White House. General Kelly -- John Kelly is running this White House, and Donald Trump has no clue what's going on. He's being puppeted and that's very dangerous for this nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: The president is firing back on Twitter: "Wacky Omarosa, who got fired 3 times on The Apprentice, now got fired for the last time. She never made it, never will. She begged me for a job, tears in her eyes, I said OK. People in the White House hated her. She was vicious, but not smart."

Omarosa is responding by doubling down on her attacks:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OMAROSA: I think it's sad that -- with all the things that's going on in the country that he would take time out to insult me and to insult my intelligence. This is his pattern with African-Americans. He has no impulse control. It's actually really sad to watch him become unhinged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Many in the White House were shocked that Omarosa recorded private conversations. Former White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer is blasting the move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN SPICER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When she left, she said great things about the president. The first time she has to make money off of him again, she says quite the opposite. The idea that she brought a personal recording device into the situation room, says all you need to know about Omarosa. She will do anything to further her own being as opposed to uphold the security protocols that guard our national security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: We'll get to Peter Strzok in a second, Dana. But tell me about the level of severity, to go into a situation room and secretly record the chief of staff. What does that tell you about that person?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, it's outrageous. And I wrote a piece on foxnews.com today in which I said, even if she didn't think that the President of the United States of America deserved better than this, certainly the American people do. And it puts our entire national security at risk. Like, I don't know how, you know, Russians get in here, into this phone, but they do, and it's just -- that's why you have lockers outside of the situation room. And there must have been enough concern. Remember the stories about the White House, being told you know longer can bring personal devices into the White House. You had to leave them in your car or leave them at home. And there must have been more concerned about her.

The White House is being, I think, quite restrained in talking about the reasons for her departure. I was shocked that she had a recording in the situation room. I also think that it was wrong to air it. I don't think that we should encourage any of this. The strange thing for me too is just about how quickly this book will go away. And it will be forgotten in three weeks. I learned that about when a book came out during the Bush administration. It was upsetting to me. The book was horrible to me. It was very disloyal, but it went out -- it was gone within three weeks. And you know who told me that it was President Bush. He said don't worry about it. Just let it go. It's irrelevant. And that is true. So for the people who are working in the White House who feel betrayed, just know that it will go away, and she looks terrible for doing this, and I'm sorry that it happened to all of us. I think that what she did was not just to the president but to the American people.

WATTERS: What do you think about her credibility, Juan? I mean, she was savagely attacked by the media when she was at the Trump White House, and now she's coming up with this explosive tell-all, or backstabbing book, some would say, and now everyone is giving her a big platform and they're listening to everything she has to say.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I don't think it's the -- to me, the news here is when he hired her. He says I'm going to hire the best people. I think that's what he said way back, right?

WATTERS: The best except for her.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Is that what he said?

WATTERS: That's what I'd say.

WILLIAMS: But he said he's going to hire the best people, and I think lots of people had questions about her credibility. I mean, all that she's known for I think was being on The Apprentice and being a reality show villain. And now, the White House says, oh, she was saying great things. That's what the tweet said. He said, man, she was saying great things, so I hired her. As long as she said great things about me, she was cool. Then she stopped saying great things now, she's wacky and her intelligence, like other black people, is to be questioned.

The big issue here for me, Jesse, I didn't know about this nondisclosure agreement, $15,000 a month. And apparently this is true that when you leave the Trump White House, they give you a job in the upcoming campaign, the 2020 campaign, but you have to sign a deal that says you can't talk about what happened in the White House. You know what struck me was -- you go back to people like Tillerson, McMahon, and others, and you say, you know, this White House is pretty chaotic. The Michael Wolff book, very chaotic.

And she's saying this White House is very chaotic, backstabbing, and that's why she was taping people. I disagree with Dana. If you go into the situation room and there's actual national security being discussed, yeah, you would be in violation. But general -- what happened here was General Kelly took her in here just as a private space and have a conversation with her with nobody else, so that, you know, I don't know what that is.

WATTERS: And we're actually going to be hearing from the president who's going to be speaking live any minute now and we're going to take you there. Before we get there, Kennedy, what do you think of Omarosa? I mean.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY, GUEST CO-HOST: I've known her for years. I was fortunate enough to interview her in the oats when she was climbing her way to the top of that precious and gilded reality TV ladder. I think the president's loyalty might be his biggest Achilles' heel.

WATTERS: Yep.

KENNEDY: . to be completely honest. And, you know, you look at what she might have done within the administration, she wasn't exactly Nikki Haley, OK? And what it shows, and Dana can speak to this, whenever -- and this is for future White House hires, and this is really a good warning for anyone in an administrative position who's going to hire someone in the future. Welcome to the future. And imagine how might this end. And, you know, look at someone like Omarosa, it was never going to end well. This was never going to be the kind of exit that was quiet and graceful. And I think General Kelly did the best he could. And Tyrus was saying when we were in the green room we've had conversations like this. I wish I'd had some conversations that were as gentle as that one.

WATTERS: And the president, as Kennedy mentioned, has been burned by being such a loyal person to a fault. I mean, look what happened with Senator Sessions. He kind of rewarded him with the A.G. job because he was the first senator to endorsed him, now he's very dissatisfied with his performance. And you have Omarosa.

(CROSSTALK)

TYRUS, GUEST CO-HOST: Sir, sir, sir, do not compare anyone to Omarosa. Omarosa is the unifier.

(CROSSTALK)

TYRUS: She's literally the most despised person in the free world, OK? We didn't like her when she said good things. Both sides, you could argue about anything you want but you could agree with like, we don't like her. No one ever liked her. Her book, do not waste your time. I can think of a much better book to buy with your time. Even after you buy this one, you could even get this one, or buy them together. But don't waste your time - - Omarosa is the worst human being. There's no loyalty. All she cares about is the camera, that's it. I mean, Trump's mistake -- but I will say, I loved him on the phone. Phenomenal. What? Damn. I can't believe that happened. Like, oh, I don't love that at all. I'm pretty sure he was like this.

(LAUGHTER)

WATTERS: Right. So the word, I guess we've heard it. The president acted like he didn't know that she had been fired.

WILLIAMS: Jesse, did you believe it?

WATTERS: Did I believe what?

WILLIAMS: That he didn't know.

WATTERS: I think the president wants to go out on a good foot with her. And knows she could possibly.

(CROSSTALK)

TYRUS: Jesse, Jesse, stop.

WATTERS: Of course he knew she was being fired.

TYRUS: Jesse, I have been fired a lot. And I got those calls. And I run into an old boss, like, what happened?

WATTERS: Right, that's what bosses do.

(CROSSTALK)

TYRUS: Oh, well, I'm going to get to the bottom of that.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: You know, Jesse, they were playing -- you know, because normally there's good cop-bad cop with former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and the president on North Korea, good cop-bad cop. The funny thing here, she's such a nut it had to be good cop-good cop because they were doing whatever they could.

WATTERS: Well, speaking of bad cop, we have the news that Peter Strzok has been fired, finally.

PERINO: Well done.

WATTERS: . terminated for abusing his position at the FBI to damage President Trump and his election prospects. And we're going to have an I.G. report out pretty soon, Dana, that's going to, we believe, lay out some of the things he did in his official capacity during the Trump-Russia investigation which he himself personally launched. Why did it take so long, do you think, for him to get fired?

PERINO: Well, I think because investigations, if they're going to be thorough, take a little time. The government always takes more time than you would want, but the I.G. has good reputation among both Republicans and Democrats, has a lot of integrity to get to this result. I do think that it does mean that you could look at the civil service laws and imagine that there could be some changes made there that -- does it take too long to adjudicate these cases? Does he have an appeal process that he could go to?

Now, the one thing that we don't want and no American should want is for civil servants to be fired because of political pressure. That is not good for us as Americans. It's not good for whoever is in charge at the White House, be Republican or Democrat. So there are reasons that we have all these safeguards. I just think that maybe they could be sped up a little bit.

WILLIAMS: I think because he was so senior, Dana, that he doesn't have a lot of recourse. The question though is exactly right. Is he being fired to appease the Trump White House because they're angry at him? But I notice in all the stories today, there's no reason given for his firing. And I know in the I.G. report it said that he obviously had these tweets in which he said, you know, he didn't like Trump. But what the I.G. report said was that there was no evidence that his dislike for Trump affected his job.

KENNEDY: that's not true. The I.G. report said affected the ultimate conclusion of prosecutors, not just Peter Strzok because the I.G. went before congress and said, yes, this is extremely problematic. There were so many lies, there was so much information that was withheld, including some of those critical text messages. And the I.G. said.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

KENNEDY: . before congress, we are going to look further.

WILLIAMS: Right, but they.

KENNEDY: . into Peter Strzok. And I have a feeling that was.

WATTERS: I predict Peter Strzok will land a very lucrative gig.

TYRUS: Oh, he'll be on CNN. But here's the thing, the consequence of this was disheartening. (INAUDIBLE) he should have resigned, the American people. Like, that's what he should have done. And the investigation -- it was completely inappropriate, regardless of whatever his beliefs was. The fact that we saw those things, he no longer could be impartial on anything, anytime. If he came messing with me, oh, he's going after me because I'm an independent. I'm not a Democrat. So, he should have resigned, it's the right thing to do.

KENNEDY: OK, I've got a question, why hold on to him?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I think the I.G. -- now if the I.G. comes back and says here's evidence that he did something. But the I.G. report concludes that Strzok did nothing.

KENNEDY: But the I.G., himself, said that there was further investigation taking place.

WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, but nothing.

KENNEDY: . in regards to Peter Strzok.

WATTERS: All right. Well, Strzok and Omarosa, two villains finally out. We're expecting live remarks from President Trump at any minute. We're going to bring it to your live. Plus, new attacks on the media coming from, you're ready, Democrats. Wait until you hear the hypocrisy and double standard up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: The president not only, one, who has a problem with the press, Democrats now taking a page from the Trump playbook and going after the media. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi blaming the fourth estate for the divide of her leadership with the Democratic Party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOUSE MINORITY LEADER NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF.: And I know -- and this have been on a jag. This is one of their priorities to undermine my prospects as speaker. But putting that aside, you see, I have not asked one person for a vote. I haven't asked a candidate or an incumbent for a vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: And hours after saying he believes in a free press, New York City's mayor, Bill de Blasio, reportedly had bodyguards physically remove a credentialed New York Post reporter who tried to ask him questions, legitimate questions about his administrations many meetings with lobbyist. De Blasio also taking shots at Fox News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: So, you'd rather not have the New York Post or Fox News exists?

BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Look, it's a free country. I'm saying because they exist, we've been changed for the worst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So, Jesse, are you going to stick up for NBC here and say they're doing right, or are you going to say, hey, wait, wait, they went after Trump too.

WATTERS: Well, here's how NBC operates and all the media does the same thing. They'll find a story, they'll seize on it, and they'll try to exploit it for partisan gain. For instance, I don't think people at NBC necessary like Pelosi, so they're trying to create a little bit of an anti- Pelosi wave. And this is how they do this. They will call every single Democrat in congress and put them on the spot in an official capacity and say, listen, are you going to vote for her as speaker? Then they will call every Dem nominee, will you vote for her as speaker? They will call the staff of all the Democrats in congress, will you vote? Then they'll run a poll, and then they'll do a few deep dives and some think pieces, and then they'll maybe book the opponent, and then they'll have a debate on CNN.

So they foster this crazy scrum that then forces the hand of politicians. They could have done this with Dianne Feinstein. You know, she had a mole from China working for her for 20 years. They could have asked every senator on the Republican and Democratic side, do you condemn this? Do you feel comfortable with her? They could have asked her opponents out in California. So they can foster these types of -- the momentum to have people apologize or step down. And when they choose a target, they're relentless. And they can really.

WILLIAMS: This is a Democrat, so Trump says NBC, fake news, all that, but now they're going after Pelosi. So, Kennedy, how to make sense of this? What's going on here?

KENNEDY: Well, I think you see the president talking about fake news and he gets very frustrated that some of these big outlets, like the failing New York Times.

WILLIAMS: OK.

KENNEDY: . are coming after him and they are quite relentless. So, I think what this does is the competing biases actually negate each other. So this is a spot of good news for the press, which has been painted so partisan and so anti-Trump. You know, the New York Times, if you remember, they went after Hillary in a number of ways, and one of the entities that she blamed for her failure and her loss, which she can point her own failure, her own likability. That would have been rich. No, she blamed the New York Times. So, it's one of those things where instead of taking personal responsibility and doing some thorough examination of your political life and the way people perceive you, it's much easier to blame someone else. Like NBC, which has always been very left friendly. The funny thing is this is the one issue where Republicans and far left progressives can agree. None of them like Nancy Pelosi. And she is a great campaign tool for all of them.

WILLIAMS: So, Dana, is it a matter of an adversarial press angering all of our politicians?

PERINO: Look, I think -- where in the world that she get the idea that going after the press works, right? We've learned that, OK. But it's also, NBC is going where the story is. Whoever the leaders is, they're the one who is going to get attacked. So, the two main people that are being attacked from the right or the left in this year's midterm elections is President Trump and Nancy Pelosi, because there is no Democrat equivalent until 2020 of President Trump. So, she's going to take all the heat. This was true for Tom Daschle, Harry Reid, Mitch McConnell, Speaker Banner, Paul Ryan.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: This is normal. And it's also where the controversy is. So, I think they're following the story. John Fund had a piece in National Review today.

WATTERS: I've read that.

PERINO: As it's coming out --like Jesse is going to roll his eyes. But he said that he thinks that perhaps the Democrats might have a November -- October surprise, excuse me, that they will pull Nancy Pelosi from any consideration for leadership so that the Democrats have a better chance of beating Republicans in November. Don't know if it's true, just passing along John Fund's idea.

WILLIAMS: So we have a moment of comedy here, Tyrus, where his people are saying, well, maybe the press is just doing their job, they're going after all these people at the top.

TYRUS: Well, first of all, 20 year mole, that's pretty good moiling. That's pretty -- 20 years, wow. That's a lot of recordings. Here's the thing, and I always equate things too, my brain always thinks sports. If my G.M. is -- we have a losing season for a decade it's probably time for the G.M. to go. And if the fans won't do it because they love him, Democrats just don't seem to ever want to make an aggressive move.

WATTERS: Unless you're Cleveland.

TYRUS: Yeah, unless you're Cleveland, right? So, let's just say that maybe NBC is a little bit to the left and they might want to use their platform to maybe get that horrible G.M. out.

KENNEDY: Yeah.

TYRUS: So they start early now. Maybe one of the players will get up and be like, you know, I'll take that job. Like this is a great idea for me. I think it's more they're trying to ignore the base, and they're trying to ignite their party, do something. They're just assuming there's this wave coming, but there's no thunder or lightning or rain to build it up. So I think it's more of like if she won't go on her own, we've got to get rid of her ourselves.

KENNEDY: I think they're doing the same thing to Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: I think their insurance policies to make sure she doesn't run again.

TYRUS: She's got to go.

KENNEDY: And, you know, and it's not as though you can't claim that the Democratic establishment or the mainstream media is sexist because they have fallen all over themselves falling in love with Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez.

PERINO: But so have we. And that's where, also -- that we go to the story. Where's the story? She's new. She's the energy that Tom Perez, the head of the DNC, says she is the future of the Democratic Party. Like, really? OK. We'll check it out, and will run all the clips and we'll see it. So.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: If you're in the news business, you go to where the story is.

WILLIAMS: You know what strikes me is when the stories came out about, like, Ryan Zinke or Scott Pruitt, I think Pruitt is the one who tried to get his wife a Chick-fill-A franchise.

PERINO: There are other things that he.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: . great lotion in the middle of the night.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. By then they say fake news. So, I don't get it. I mean, is it fake or not? Does NBC lean left, lean right? I don't get it.

WATTERS: I think it leans left, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Well, but not in this case.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Maybe they're so far left.

WATTERS: . Democratic Party.

WILLIAMS: OK. Should Democrats be worried about a new poll showing party voters supporting, get this, socialism. We're going to discuss that on "The Five," straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: President Trump set to speak any minute now at a fund-raising event in Utica, New York. Is that Utica or Utica?

TYRUS: Utica.

PERINO: Utica, excuse me. I'm from Wyoming. Anyway, we'll bring it to live when he steps on stage, and we'll carry the whole thing so you'll hear it. Meantime, is this more evidence of a Democratic Party shift to the far left? According to a new Gallup Poll, Democrats use socialism more positively than they do capitalism, 57 percent hold a positive view of socialism, and only 47 percent view capitalism positively, which is lower than in any of Gallup's previous three measures of the same poll. Meanwhile, Republicans remain much more positive about capitalism and socialism. Tyrus, I'm going to go to you first, what is going on?

TYRUS: Well, when you're on the losing team and you really can't get on a starting, and you can't break the plane, you've got to have something new. So go with socialism. It's new. Hasn't been done for a while. You bring a bag. It's kind of like an old movie. You just revamped it. And we know how those usually turn out when you're like Death Wish. They brought back Death Wish and no one saw it. So, the Republicans have the economy and so -- on lock. So, we'll just start some new stuff like socialism.

PERINO: To the Democrats have.

TYRUS: All for one, one for all.

WATTERS: That's what I was going to say, they have a death wish if they want to go with socialism. If the Democrats make a midterm election about socialism versus capitalism, they're going to lose and probably never win again. I found it refreshing that the Democrats have come out for socialism because now they're not lying to our face. For years, moderate Democrats pretended to be moderate. They'd get elected and then they'll go hard left. Then the voters would kick them out, and then two years later, forget and then reelect Democrats. A socialist -- I think a socialist is kind of like a Democrat after a few drinks. You know, you've had a few. You're just saying, you know what, I want the government to take over everything. And you start loosening up. You tell the people how you really feel. But socialism has never worked and never will work, and it's definitely not going to work in America.

PERINO: Juan, I think, obviously, we are over simplifying.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I would say so. I'm glad you've save me that.

PERINO: Socialism, if you look at Venezuela, you can say, obviously, that is a system that does not work.

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: Is what the Democrats trying to do is to talk a little bit more about financial anxiety across the country for things like health care, in particular, and that they're trying to figure out a way to reach people and try to understand. The problem is, and I'll have your answer this, do they have a problem in trying to explain how their version of this would work and how we would pay for it?

WILLIAMS: Well, no, because I don't think they -- I don't think they label it as socialism per se. And remember, what they're doing is appealing to exactly what you said, people who had concerns about high cost of prescription drugs, or high cost of medical care, or the high cost of education. So what they're talking about here is not Venezuela. They're not saying, oh, yeah, we support nationalization of major industries" or confiscation of someone's wealth. What they're saying is "We think there should be a social safety net in a time of rising income inequality." People should not be allowed to fall through, that there is a role for the government in terms of saying, I think if Greg was here, he would say with increasing automatization, robotics and the like.

There are more people who are going to be pushed out. So, there's big debate about things like guaranteed income...

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: ...making sure everybody can have some support.

PERINO: Then, Kennedy, do conservatives have a problem in trying to explain how there is a social safety net that does work and that it's better than other systems?

KENNEDY: Yes. And the difference is you're talking about a mosquito net or actually a little net to catch jellyfish like SpongeBob and a circus net that people on the trapeze fall into and you have vastly different sized nets. It's not just a question of whether or not people are well-intentioned and believe those who cannot take care of themselves deserve assistance. That's a given and anyone would say that.

The problem is you are taking over the means of production and you are forcing people, you are redistributing people's wealth, and forcing other people to pay for everyone else's healthcare using the false premise, well, it's expensive. Now, it will be so much less expensive when the government handles it. That is never the case.

PERINO: No.

KENNEDY: And there are never safeguards or parameters and these programs only tend to grow and grow and grow. And once you have one, it's impossible to pull back. I still blame Republicans because I think if Republicans had come up with a legislative fix, a real comprehensive one for Obamacare, we wouldn't be having the conversation about socialism at all.

WILLIAMS: So, what does it tell you that they didn't come up with any fix?

KENNEDY: I think that it was a gross failure.

[CROSSTALK]

PERINO: I may say that they should have done tax reform first.

KENNEDY: Yes.

PERINO: Let the economy show what it can do when it is on leash and then have a conversation about a repeal.

KENNEDY: Absolutely right, and I think -- but that kind of...

PERINO: But no one listens to me.

TYRUS: I listen and Greg said yes and thank you for noticing and.

WATTERS: Of course he's watching on vacation.

TYRUS: Yes. He's on my back nonstop.

WILLIAMS: But, Kennedy...

KENNEDY: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ...what would you say to our seniors who say "We love Social Security. Government does that right" or Medicare, the government does that right.

KENNEDY: That's what I'm saying. Conservatives can say that there are programs that work. We can figure out a way to make them work better and to last longer, and you have to be bold, and brave, and not worry about being reelected but really tackle entitlements not for seniors, not for people who are enjoying Medicare and Social Security right now, but for younger generations who should have the opportunity to invest.

PERINO: Do you know when you can do that? In a second term.

KENNEDY: OK. How did this happen? New security concerns at airports nationwide after an employee actually steals a plane, details next.

[COMMERCIAL BREAK]

KENNEDY: Troubling new questions are being raised about security after an employee stole and crashed a commercial airplane in the Seattle area, that happened Friday night. 29-year-old Horizon Air ground service agent, Richard Russell, somehow managed to gain access to an empty airliner and took off flying in loops and he was chased by military jets before crashing into a small island nearby. He did not survive. Investigators now working to determine how he did it and the incident has heightened worries about gaps in aviation security.

Jesse, I will ask you. Is this a dangerous blueprint for some other unstable who perhaps have access -- the same kind of access to this aircraft?

WATTERS: It could be. I mean, we're lucky he was just a troubled soul instead of a jihadist.

KENNEDY: Right.

WATTERS: Would you imagine that? He would have flown it right into the Needle or something like that in Seattle. You have a very small circle of people that you can trust on these airlines and on the tarmac like that and they go through a lot of vetting and they go through background checks that are very vigilant and you have to be able to trust people.

And obviously this guy was untrustworthy. There was no way to know that. He went up in the air with no training whatsoever and was doing all sorts of tricks. He did tell air traffic control that he was not a danger to other people, just himself. So, the jets that they scrambled from the military didn't try to take him out because he wasn't going into a civilian area. They tried to guide him out to sea, but unfortunately he just crashed and killed himself.

But it is just really scary that he wasn't using this plane as a missile.

KENNEDY: Yes. And air traffic control, I mean they stayed calm and they did whatever they could to engage him. They also scrambled some fighter jets to escort him. Was this a right response?

PERINO: Well, I think so. But I have to tell you. If you were still sitting in line at the TSA checkpoint and you're trying to get through so that you can get on an airplane and you have to take your shoes off and you have to take all this other stuff off, got to get your liquids out, and you got to get all this stuff out, and you can't take an apple on, and there's all of these rules and they've done all of this stuff and yet somebody who actually works for an airline -- like nothing is foolproof.

And so, I'm not saying that I don't want the security at the airports. I think that we ask our TSA agents to do really difficult work and with frustrated customers. Yes. This is dangerous and I don't know how you stop it necessarily, but again, if you see something, say something, that includes the uncomfortable feeling sometimes of snitching on one of your coworkers.

KENNEDY: And his family said, "We never would've expected this." Even some of his friends were interviewed and said that he showed no signs of being troubled or depressed even though he admitted to air traffic control that he had a few screws loose.

WILLIAMS: That's his language.

KENNEDY: Yes.

WILLIAMS: That's what he said about himself. So, what strikes me is that after 9/11, this is the first time since 9/11 we've seen an aircraft stolen and taken up. But those guys in 9/11, they actually had some pilot training. This guy had no pilot's license and then he gained access to the aircraft and you have to know how to move in sequence the levers to get the plane started and you have to talk to people.

And apparently, everybody just went along with it and those incredible maneuvers you were just watching, they're real. That's what he was doing. This is a guy who -- from all we know from his family, from anybody else -- never flew an airplane. And then, he crashes into the deserted side of a small island. It has about 12 people living on it.

So, I don't think he was out to do any damage. The concern I would have sitting here in New York is, wow, post-9/11 this is going on after all the steps we've taken? Wow.

KENNEDY: Sometimes the government can't protect you from everything, Tyrus.

TYRUS: Well, I mean he did tell them he had played some video games from his flight experience which is -- it's funny but it's sad because of the situation. I think this is a very unique situation where an individual decided this is the way he wanted to go and this was -- he wasn't trying to involve anybody else.

I think he just did -- "I'm going out in a blaze of glory" and he made sure he didn't hurt anybody else. Maybe hit the water, probably be a more comfortable ending, but he hit the wall. So, I don't look at this like I'm not worried about airport security as much as I'm worried...

KENNEDY: Not worried about a copycat.

TYRUS: No. I think anyone who watched that who thought that that was a fun way to end your life, I'd put money to listen to the black box because it was a really long, horrible death with screaming and crying. So, again, it's unfortunate, but if we have to calm down for a minute and let's not get teens together in panels -- well, I guess we already did that, but to find out what was the thing.

Here was a guy who said he was at the end of it. He was done. He was tired and he chose to go out on a plane and he didn't go after anybody else. So, thank you for that, but...

KENNEDY: Do you think they're going to have any other -- will there be new rules and regulations for airports to have?

PERINO: I'm sure that people that are worried about liability...

KENNEDY: Yes.

PERINO: ...they'll be talking about it.

KENNEDY: All right. And we will be talking about you. And have you ever wondered why you're feeling so stressed while you're on vacation? Mercy, it is obvious, a new study finds some surprising answers which we will reveal that happening.

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