Overstock CEO alleges he assisted in 'political espionage'

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Overstock CEO alleges he assisted in 'political espionage'

Trump 2016 campaign manager Corey Lewandowski says the Senate should call former Overstock CEO Patrick Byrne to testify about his involvement with a Russian agent.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," August 22, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Hey there, Bret. Good evening to you.

All right everybody. "FOX NEWS ALERT" breaking right now. Bombshell new allegations about the deep state investigation aimed directly at Peter Strzok, the FBI, and a notorious alleged Russian spy. You recognize this woman that you see there.

Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha McCallum. This is going to be a very big story tonight. We have a special guest, Patrick Byrne, one of the most well-connected CEOs in the world of business.

Built Overstock.com 20 years ago, and today, he resigned from his company. He says it's because of what he knows about the investigation and about the deep state. This is a quote from his statement today. "The bottom line is, it's a big cover-up. Political espionage conducted against Hillary Clinton, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump. I was part of it. I thought I was doing law enforcement. Sorry."

Patrick Byrne, joins me live exclusively in moments. But first, breaking news correspondent Trace Gallagher gives us a bit of the backstory here tonight. And then, we'll talk to Patrick himself. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, CORRESPONDENT: Martha, when Patrick Byrne went public 10 days ago with claims that he was involved with the FBI and the Trump-Russia investigation, and the Hillary Clinton investigation, Overstock.com reportedly lost 36 percent of its stock value in just two days.

Today, after resigning from Overstock, Byrne released a statement saying in part, "While I believe that I did what was necessary for the good of the country, for the good of the firm, I am in the sad position of having to sever ties with Overstock."

When he says, "for the good of the country," Byrne is referring to his claim that he provided documents to John Durham, the U.S. Attorney for the District of Connecticut who at the request of Attorney General Bill Barr is now looking into the origins of the Mueller Report.

Patrick Byrne, later told Fox Business that, "I have all the answers. Going on to say that Attorney General Barr is about to sneak up and ram the deep state submarine. Byrne also claims that between 2015 and 2018, he had a relationship with Maria Butina, the woman who pleaded guilty to being an unregistered Russian agent.

Butina is currently serving 18 months in jail. But Maria Butina's lawyer accuses Byrne of starting a manipulative romantic relationship with her at the direction of the U.S. government.

Meantime, Patrick Byrne, says it was upon the advice of Warren Buffett, who he calls his Omaha rabbi that he decided to go public.

After Byrne resigned, we should note shares of Overstock.com went up more than 10 percent. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you very much.

So, here now as we said in a story exclusive tonight is Patrick Byrne, the now-former CEO of Overstock.com. Patrick, thank you very much for being with us tonight to talk about your story.

PATRICK BYRNE, FORMER CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, OVERSTOCK.COM: Martha, it's an honor to be on. There was some confusion wrapped up, and I believe you just heard for (INAUDIBLE).

MACCALLUM: OK. All right, we have -- we'll unscramble it to be sure. So, you know, first of all, I know that you obviously you left your company today. It's a company that you built through your own -- you know, sweat and grit over all of those years, very successful business. Your thoughts quickly about the company.

BYRNE: Company is in a great position. We have two sides to it. We have the retail business, we're also have a network of block chain companies that I think can change the world.

And for example, with something called if you're in the block chain, there is like a killer app called security tokens. We are the company called zero that is leading that.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

BYRNE: We have all of these great block chain companies and our retail business return the positive in the black if it down in the second quarter. So, everything is in a great situation.

MACCALLUM: OK.

BYRNE: I have to get away from the retail company based on what I think is going on.

MACCALLUM: OK. So, obviously, you stepped away from your company. You say for the good of the company, and the good of the country.

BYRNE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: You say that you got tangled up in the deep state investigation into President Trump. Tell me how, how did all of this start?

BYRNE: Let me give you the bottom line upfront. So, listen. I'm a -- I'm a hippie. I'm -- I have nothing to do with the feds. On my flag-waving hippie, for twice in my life I had the honor of helping them.

A friend of mine named Brian Williams was murdered. 17 years ago, I helped them bring the murderer to justice, and I help them fight Wall Street about 12 years ago. I was kind of a one-man occupy Wall Street. In '05-'06, the feds showed up and it was my honor to help them take down a couple of hundred people on Wall Street.

MACCALLUM: All right.

BRYNE: So, that's that.

And let me jump to the bottom line, and this I've learned is the quickest way to explain it. In 2015-2016, they got back in touch with me the third time. And it was -- I was giving some fishy orders, and I carried them out thinking I -- in 2015-2016, thinking I was conducting law enforcement. Let me emphasize, don't say the FBI. The FBI was barely involved in this. It's all the top.

The men in black, as I called them, showed up and asked for this third favor. And I -- and well, anyway, I'm not going to go into the details right now. But, I didn't know who sent the orders, but I did them -- they seemed fishy last summer watching television. And here is the punch line - - here's the punch line people, last summer watching television and some congressional hearings, I figured out where those orders came from.

They came from a guy named Peter Strzok. And real through staff, Carlin, McCabe, Comey. That was who sent the orders. And that is one thing --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, you're naming a bunch of FBI people there.

BYRNE: Well, the Peter Strzok. And has been confirmed to me that my instructions came from Peter Strzok. That the people who carried me orders were coming and taking on behalf. That's thanked your time. So it's a risk --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: OK. So, you had helped -- you had helped the government a couple of times, they reached out to you. What did they ask you to do?

BYRNE: I don't want to go into the nitty-gritty right now. Well, the nitty-gritty, I can tell you the main event, and I feel terrible. I've been watching for three years and our country is coming apart, and people are killing each other. And I finally went to see Buffett. And Buffett -- my Buffett and I -- Buffett is kind of my rabbi, I call him.

And he says -- and he said, "Patrick, you have to come forward." And I said, "You know, it's got to make some feds fear, furious at me. Their heads are going to explode. And he said, "You look, feds do their job, you're a citizen, you got your job, you're coming to the public."

Here is what it is. This was all political espionage conducted against Hillary Clinton, Rubio, Cruz, and Trump. This is not a theory of mine. Some political theory, I was in the room when it happened in away. I mean it not in a way, I was part of it.

I didn't know -- I knew I had some of the pieces. I thought I had the pieces of something much bigger. Last summer, as stuff, bubbled into the news thanks to good journalists such as yourself. I started realizing I had these very important missing pieces.

I actually started coming -- trying to help then. But I had to wait until there was a return to rule of law in our country. And I've lived in places where they (INAUDIBLE) and that took waiting until Bill Barr got -- it got installed.

And then, I (INAUDIBLE) I don't know the guy. That I never shaken hand or anything. But only then did I trust things enough. And I went to the Department of Justice and started to explain the way I now.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: And you told them what you know. Yes, you know, its -- and it's, it's my understanding that you know, I should just point this out because some people might be listening and saying, you know, well, how credible is this? And you know, we did some asking around, and you know, we have basically had the indications that you know, that there's every reason to believe that what you -- that your story is indeed credible. So --

(CROSSTALK)

BYRNE: I'm not in the -- I'm not in the convincing business, I'm in the business of -- I'm opening the door and letting the world open they want to know. Sara caught me out there.

MACCALLUM: Yes, no I hear you, and obviously. But let me go back to the - - to the basic. Because this is what everybody is saying at home -- this is what everyone saying at home. What did they tell you to do? What did they ask you to do, Patrick?

BYRNE: There was -- well, some of it involved this young lady Maria Butina. Who came here -- so, some of it involved her.

MACCALLUM: OK.

BYRNE: Some of it involves selling up Hillary Clinton for what looked like in a -- looked like law enforcement was actually setting her up to be blackmailed. I helped set them set up Hillary Clinton to be blackmailed.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: What was the name -- blackmail?

BYRNE: Can't go into it. And so, I've already -- I'm sure there was a bunch of people in Washington are going to rip me apart. And I've actually been warned. I was warned last October. If I -- from a friendly person, "Patrick, if you come forward, this entire town at Washington is going to destroy you. It's going to turn you into dust.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, and you know, I give you a lot of credit because I know that you said that you did some soul-searching over the summer. And you, you know, talked to good friends. And you mentioned one of them a moment ago.

What was the -- what was the nature of your relationship with Maria Butina? Did she reach out to you, or did you reach out to her? And how involved were you? Did you have an affair with her for three years or what was the nature of your relationship?

BYRNE: She -- have you seen the video -- I bet you've played it where candidate Trump is at a conference and this young lady who stands up and ask a question.

MACCALLUM: Yes, ask a question. Sure.

BYRNE: If you go and look up that conference, which was a 2015 conference in Las Vegas, and I'm a small-L libertarian, a small-R Republican. I don't even identify as a Republican. I'm a small -- I -- but as I get asked to speak, it's sort of freedom-oriented conferences like that, and I did.

And I was at that conference. And after I spoke, she actually came up to me and talked about guns. Well, and some gun rights thing in Florida, and the first time I pressed her off, I'm not into guns. I -- you know, I'm not -- everybody should have one, but I -- I'm not into them, and I don't fetishize them or anything like Republicans, but I often do.

But then she came up the next day and said, listen, I'm really here -- look, "I'm really here, I've been sent from Russia to make contact with you. There's some people in Russia who want to talk to you, they know about you and your relationship with Milton Friedman. Believe it or not, there are people like this in Russia, there are liberals."

And ever said this holster. I don't want to get it into here, I'll put it up on a web site called, Deep Capture, which is where I used to write to the world. But, I'll go into although -- I don't want to go into where -- and the (INAUDIBLE), did you touch her stuff?

We had -- we had an intellectual relationship. I was given a green light to meet her again. She turned that into a physical relationship. I don't mean to book, you know not that I'm unwitting, but or unwell, but so, we dated for about six months.

I was trying to enter her into some senior foreign policy thinkers. Because of some things I used to do, involving law enforcement, taking on Wall Street, I have -- I used to have a very low-level security clearance.

And when you get that, a signed a piece of paper that says, when a gal comes up here from Russia, and says, "Listen, I've been sent here to make contact with you, and we want to take you to Moscow, and want you to speak on Bitcoin, and speak on liberalism at the Central Bank, and then, we want another people -- you have to report that.

I reported that. And so, that my clearance authority. And which is kind of good -- you know, I talked about once it'd be three years or something like that happened. And before I know it, the men in black are back in, in my life. And I was trying to encourage her to have a relationship. And she wanted to be a back-channel for peace.

And I could have opened some doors. But I didn't want to do that until I had -- until I has a green light. And after a couple of months, I'm -- I don't I was given the green light that turned romantic. I was bothered. I'll tell you something that -- I mean, I'll tell you some really deep stuff.

I was by -- I was two-thirds judging and there's an opportunity for something good. Something to move the ball of peace down the field a bit. One-third of it was a risk. As those -- no, she -- I know she was dating or living some Republican bigwigs and stuff. So, my idea, I just said, I'm a 56-year-old bachelor. I said, you just -- every six weeks or so, when you want to see someplace, give me a call and we'll meet there.

But I was trying to get to her in and maybe something peaceful could happen. But I had sort of a third -- maybe two-thirds I was positive. One third, this is quite a risk. And especially, over those from July of 2015 to March of 2016, as I -- as she clearly was swanking around more and more in big shot Republican circles, including people like Don Junior.

I was telling her that the men in black about all those meetings before she had them. They knew about her the day she landed, they knew about every one of these meetings she had, they knew that at one point, she was going to have -- to have a meeting with Don Junior.

I don't know. They -- and listen, I didn't vote for Trump. I'm not a never Trumper, I have this -- he won -- he won fair and square, and that's -- but so --

MACCALLUM: So, do you think that she was set up by the men in black to approach people in the Trump administration? Is that a possibility?

BYRNE: It was all at 100 percent. They knew that she was trying to approach, and her instructions were to approach -- she had to build a contact with anyone in the Hillary campaign, Rubio, Cruz, or Trump.

And they knew that because she told me, and I let them know. They let it all happen. I could have told you in December of 2015, I had a suspicion forming in my mind. It was really quite strange because she hadn't initially checked off. She doesn't like -- she's a Democrat. She's much more of a Republican or much more of a small-L liberal.

She's a Milton Friedman fan. I'm a Milton Friedman guy. So, once she had checked off, having met somebody in Clinton's circle, I don't know who. And she told -- she was telling me all this. She was just going to focus on Cruz, Rubio, or Trump.

At that point, the interest of -- and the United States government and doing anything about this went to zero. It became like this even to the point I was telling them things like. Look, she's telling me that a matter of weeks, she's going to be at some conference of conservatives and Donald Trump is going to be taken down, and out the backdoor of his hotel, and we take in to meet her, and this and that. What do you want me to do? Can I -- let me take her off for a trip and whisk her away to the Bahamas away.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

BYRNE: And they said, "No we're going to let it all happen?" 100 percent. 100 percent, they knew about --

MACCALLUM: So, do you believe that -- do you believe that they -- that she was working for them, for the -- for these men in suits in the United States? Or that she was working for the Russian government or some combination?

BYRNE: No, no, no, I'm not going into that. I'm not going into that. It's not she wasn't working for the men in suits here. Listen, here is the other main event. It's horrible to even say the initials, FBI involved in this. It wasn't the FBI. The FBI got hijacked from the top. It's the top. It's entitled the top.

MACCALLUM: Well, you talked about Comey, you talked about Brennan, Clapper, so you're talking about the CIA?

BYRNE: I'm talking about -- I've made -- well, I've said there's three officials whose names were used with me X, Y, and Z. I'm not going to say in your show. The feds all have this. I'm sorry, the legitimate feds all have this as of April. There were three names used at the three senior officials. They were behind all this.

And the FBI was out of it. The FBI, they delivered the message. And let me tell -- and then there was another period where they said -- then they told me to break up with her. I was staged for herself. They came back and this time they specifically said, we need you to conduct a romantic -- rekindle your romantic relationship and the orders are coming from X, Y, and Z.

And they felt horrible. I want to be clear. These are men and women of honor. And I think those are illegal orders. And I -- they made very clear with me, you do not have to take these, you do not have to help. I think they didn't want me to but they felt terrible.

MACCALLUM: So when you -- when you say all the way up, are you talking -- what do you mean, the White House, the CIA?

BYRNE: I think --

MACCALLUM: Or you're talking about entities that were separate from these? Like when you say it wasn't the FBI but you say it was Peter Strzok, are you sort of carving him out as being part of a separate operation, separate from the FBI?

BYRNE: No, no, no. I'm just -- forget Strzok for a moment. The X, Y, and Z are actual human beings whose names you know, who were in the Obama administration. Guys like Strzok and stuff are the errand boys. They're the clerks who sent the messages for some federal agents --

MACCALLUM: Is it John Brennan, is it James Clapper, is it Comey?

BYRNE: General Barr -- General Barr has that information and I think -- I think I'm there already. I'm sure furious, I've way overstepped lines.

MACCALLUM: All right, I understand. And I don't want you to --

BYRNE: They'll reveal it to you. They'll reveal it to you.

MACCALLUM: OK. You know, I'm asking questions because that's what -- that's my job. And you can, you know, answer them, you know, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, and I understand that.

But, you know, when you said that you realized last summer that it was Peter Strzok that had contacted you, and, you know, you've talked about, you know, having discussions about Maria Butina, what -- you said something -- did something make you uncomfortable that he asked you to do and is that why you, you know, sort of said I'm out.

BYRNE: No. It didn't work that way. And you know, I'm going to -- I will write up an explanation over this and people can read it so it's clear. But it's -- it was -- what was making me uncomfortable was two things, that I was -- you know, I had originally said, hey, this is two thirds an opportunity and something. She's very well connected in Russia. They may introduce her to some people in ours -- in our foreign policy think tank establishment, and would that be OK?

One third -- you know, she wanted to talk about John Stuart Mill and Erasmus and the Greeks. I mean, she's a real intellectual. But I had this concern about the risks that they was some mischief afoot. And she was here doing what -- well as those first six months war on, that risk profile shifted and she stopped talking so much about John Stuart Mill, and John Rawls, and Milton Friedman, as we started talking about all these Republican bigwigs, she's swaggering around with.

I could have told you -- I'm moving for a prop. I could have told you in December of 2015 I was forming this thought. It's starting to seem what they're doing is now that they know she's here just swimming around with Republicans. It's starting to seem that what they're doing is letting this can-o-scandal develop on the republicans and someday they're going to pick it up and shake it, crack it, and spray it on the Republicans.

No way. No way with James Comey, no way with President Obama ever do something like that. That's literally what -- and I'm not saying President Obama was involved. Don't make any assumptions about who X, Y, & Z are. Those are all up to the DOJ involved. I'm -- but I literally -- I could have told you in December 2015, which I will note is seven months before the official start of the investigation that I had already picked up. I was already hypothesizing. This is starting to seem like they're just deliberately letting this grenade develop on the Republicans or they could just kind of pull the pin on it someday.

MACCALLUM: I hear you.

BYRNE: I couldn't -- you know --

MACCALLUM: Was there anything that you witnessed that you know -- or were you ever told to stand down, you know, to back off? Is that what you were referring to a little while ago or is that something different?

BYRNE: No. And in March 2016, I was -- she asked me over to Russia to give a speech. Her goal was to get me to Moscow to give a talk at the Central Bank on Bitcoin and liberalism and then to take me to a resort in the Altai mountains that was going to be shut down for three days so that 40 to 45 people would get together from the oligarchs and the governments and the liberals and we're going to spend three days talking about liberalism.

And also -- anyway, this is this was the offer and they -- she'd been sent by them to get me to come back and do this. When she asked me in March to come over again, she was saying speak in Saint Petersburg on Blockchain. And I think that we can change the world and eliminate poverty and stuff with Blockchain come speak. Putin is going to be there. It's been arraigned you're going to have 60 minutes alone with Putin and this would be great.

At that point, I was told break up with her and they -- and get her out of your life. And I worked on something else involving corruption of a federal official. When that --

MACCALLUM: OK.

BYRNE: OK.

MACCALLUM: No, go ahead. When that --

BYRNE: When that matter involving the corruption of the federal official was complete, it ended in an odd way that sounded fishy. It ended in an odd way that was very fishy. And again, the details are all in the Department of Justice and -- but it was involved in a corruption of a federal official and it ended in a way that smelled like skunk.

At which point when they came back around July 1st of 2016 which is to say a few weeks before the Republican convention, but about the time that Trump became the --

MACCALLUM: Nominee.

BYRNE: Presumptive nominee, not nominee but -- they came back and said boy, did we make a mistake? Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. We need to do -- and I want to be clear they said this. They said, the United States never ever asked this to somebody, never asked a citizen to conduct a romantic relationship in order to get information. This is such a national security emergency. We need to ask you to do this if you're willing and the orders come from X Y and Z.

We want to be clear, Patrick. You are absolutely in your rights to refuse this. You have no obligation to. We never -- in all our careers, we've never heard of an American citizen being asked to sleep with someone in order to get information and such.

I want to be clear about something. And so then I conducted for the following seven months. I -- all intents and purposes conducted another romance. That entire time I was lying to the federal government. I put on a show. I was flying her, whining, and dining her.

That second time I spent time with her, I created the impression deliberately that I was complying with the request and being romantic. What I was actually doing -- and she has confirmed this I understand from prison cell. She has no -- you know, she could have every right to hate me. I understand she's confirmed to journalists I was a total gentleman.

Anyone observing and surveilling would have thought that we were deeply in love. I never laid a finger on her because I knew it would disgrace our country and it would disgrace Maria. And that entire appeared that I was being instructed to romance her, I created the impression and -- but it was all a lie. And I did that and at the same time I set up X Y and Z for some felony charges.

MACCALLUM: OK. I just have two quick questions for you. One is what made you realize last summer that the person who was contacting you was Peter Strzok?

BYRNE: Well, he wasn't contacting. Let me be clear. Some people showed up and said, these instructions, comment -- this request comes. It was things -- because I had been involved, I deliberately kept -- once this Russia scandal started, believe it or not, I didn't fight -- I tried as much as I could not to follow it because I wanted to keep my own mind clear for when the investigator show it up and we should talk about that too.

But when the investigators showed up so my mind would be clear. So I really tried not to follow it as hard as I could. By last May or June, I mean it became impossible, and I felt very awful because I knew I had these very important pieces. I actually went to see a lawyer and the lawyer who's a big Republican lawyer, I went -- he was all excited. I'm going to take -- I said I need to come forward to somebody, help me, and he heard about five minutes of my story.

And he said, Patrick, you're going to go home and you got to keep your mouth shut. You're going to go to prison for the rest of your life if you come forward. But the next month, I was watching Strzok -- I was watching the congressional hearing ripping these guys apart that the repeat -- there were little details that were said that made me realize holy cow, this guy Peter Strzok is the guy who sent these instructions.

And there's little details within the things that were said, and they have since confirmed to me more recently -- yes, you're correct in what you figured out.

MACCALLUM: All right, last question. What do you say to folks who watch this and they say you know, he's spinning a yarn?

BYRNE: Yes. Listen, I've put everything on the line. I was warned that I'm going to be destroyed by this, that all of Washington is going to try to grind me into dust. I had to eject from the company. I had to eject. I can't bring that on the company. If you want to help me and you -- anyway, you go buy your daughter a pillow at Overstock.com. The entirety of Washington is going to come down on me and try to destroy me so I had to get out of the way. That's what's happened. And --

MACCALLUM: Well, no doubt. Peter Strzok would watch this and say you know, he's full of it. I had nothing to do with anything that he's talking about I would imagine.

BYRNE: I can't wait. I can't -- he won't. I can tell you, Peter Strzok, you want to see a former director crap his pants, pardon me. Go stick a television camera on Peter Strzok or let's just say James Comey and say the name, Patrick Byrne. You will see a former director of the FBI crap his pants.

MACCALLUM: All right, well we thank you for coming here tonight and telling your story and we'll obviously follow it as it moves forward. And thank you very much.

Byrne: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much. Patrick Byrne, joining us tonight. Good to see you, sir. Also here tonight Matthew Whitaker, the former Acting U.S. Attorney General. Matthew, your thoughts on what Mr. Byrne had to say.

MATT WHITAKER, FORMER ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, again, he tells an interesting story but it's light on specifics and so we're going to have to wait and hear exactly what these specifics are. But the good news is the one person who needs those specifics John Durham has him. And I believe that Bill Barr and John Durham are going to give full transparency to the American people as to the origins of this investigation.

And if these -- if these things all line up and we hear the full story, then we may look back at this video as to -- as a great opportunity to hear directly from somebody that was involved in this investigation.

MACCALLUM: So let me ask you about this because this whole question of Maria Butina who is doing 18 months in prison and she -- you know, because she didn't register as a foreign agent. What did you think about the part of the story where he says you know, that the assets told him that he yes, please go ahead, have this you know, relationship with her, go to the meeting with her and report back to us, and then when she started sort of reaching out to these Republican entities and sort of heading more in that direction it sounds like, at that point when he started asking questions, they said you know hands off, we don't want to talk about any of that?

WHITAKER: Well, typically, I mean -- he was -- it's -- he's describing it like he was being used as a source and being inserted into a situation by the feds. And there are protocols for handling sources and there will be recorded 302s and the like and so -- I mean, all of this can be corroborated and that's the key is you know, this whole situation has to be corroborated.

And the best thing about John Durham is he has a full picture of everything that was feeding into this investigation.

MACCALLUM: Do you think that he's credible?

WHITAKER: It's hard for me to say. But you know, one of the nice things - -

MACCALLUM: Were you aware of him when you were at the -- at the DOJ?

WHITAKER: Only that I knew of the company overstock and that was only as a citizen that buy stuff off the internet. So you know, it was not a name that that crossed my transit. But remember, I was supervising the Mueller investigation.

MACCALLUM: Right.

WHITAKER: We weren't looking at the origins until we had the investigation done in the report file.

MACCALLUM: Yes, it doesn't sound like he was ever asked any questions by the Mueller investigation. Do you think that's odd?

WHITAKER: A little bit. I do. I think it's -- I think what you see -- the question here boils down to in 2016, why did the feds let this entire Russian interference operation continue without abatement? And that's kind of what this whole story feeds into.

And in 2018 to 2020, I think you're going to see the Trump administration do a much different effort against these interference efforts than we saw Obama do in 2016 and that's the real story here I think.

MACCALLUM: And as you point out, he has turned over his story to John Durham. That investigation is ongoing. We do not know what they will find. We you know, gave him an opportunity to tell his side of THE STORY here tonight, and we'll see you know, what comes of all of it as you say. Matt Whittaker, great having you listening in to all of that and commenting on it tonight.

WHITAKER: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Thank you. Good to see you.

WHITAKER: Good to see you. So coming up next, President Trump floats the idea of ending birthright citizenship in the United States. Will he follow through on this or is it fueling fodder for his critics claiming that you know, the president is up to this for some other reason. We will talk about that with Corey Lewandowski coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: Birthright citizenship, where you have a baby on our land, you walk over the border, have a baby, congratulations the baby is now a U.S. citizen. We are looking at it very, very seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, President Trump igniting some backlash with those comments about a possible end to birthright citizenship in the United States.

Nearly one year ago, the president floated that idea of using an executive order to do so, legal experts warned that it would run afoul of the 14th Amendment specifically in the U.S. Constitution.

Now Kamala Harris, one of the 2020 democratic rival is mocking the president on Twitter writing, "This president should seriously consider reading the Constitution." She says.

Here now, former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski. Corey, good to see you. Welcome. I do want to ask you about that. But first of all, very interesting discussion with Peter -- with Peter Byrne -- Patrick Byrne. Tell me a little bit about what is your reaction to that?

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: You know, Martha, it may have been the craziest interview I've ever seen in my life. You know, I have been unfortunately knee-deep in this investigation. I have --

MACCALLUM: Yes, you have, that's why I want to get your reaction.

LEWANDOWSKI: I've testified in front of the House on two separate occasions, the Senate already.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

LEWANDOWSKI: The Mueller investigators, never have I heard of this individual, never has he been brought up in conversations, he clearly had nothing to do with the campaign and if he was somehow involved with this former Russian spy, she was likely using him as a source for information.

There seems like a lot of black helicopters flying around this guy's world, things that he can't talk about, and he said it wasn't the FBI but then he kept referencing Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, we know those are bad people. We know that they should have been fired a long time ago, they're part of the Mueller investigation. So, I think we should dig deeper on him.

And I think the Senate should call him before and ask him some questions on rope because I have the privilege of course of going back in front of the House committee on September 17th.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, my guess is that obviously people will want to talk to him, he said he's turned over his story to John Durham. And that part of the investigation is ongoing so, you know, we'll see where it all goes, it's a very interesting story and as I said, there are some sources who say that they think that there might be some credibility to his story. So, we put it out there and we'll see where it goes.

Birthright citizenship, is this a wise move for the president to pursue this as an executive order?

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, I think it is. Look, this president has said, there is a path to become a citizen of the United States. Everyone knows what that is. And he's actually moved from having a bloodline relationship to come as a citizen to actually having a merit-based system much more in line with what Canada has, with Australia has.

And said, look, if the United States needs what your specialty is, then we should absolutely encourage you to come here as an immigrant and we want to accept you.

But just because all of a sudden you came across the border, you had a baby, that doesn't necessarily make you a U.S. citizen because we have a very porous border. And we need to close that border so that we know who's coming in and once that problem is solved, this whole issue goes away.

MACCALLUM: There are some facilities in places I think in San Francisco where they have like, you know, they'll put you up for the week, basically you have your child there and then had back to -- I think that area mostly caters to Asian people who want to have American citizens. So, we'll see where that goes.

A lot of talk going around this week about the president saying that he is upset that, you know, all of the talk about the potential for an economic recession, and that's why he's sort of has gone off the rails in their words in terms of, you know, this discussion about Jewish disloyalty and all of this. Do you see him -- you know, how does he seem -- how does he seem to you?

LEWANDOWSKI: You know, I've spent a lot of time with the president in the last week. He was in New Hampshire last Thursday night, I spoke with him Wednesday, I was with him on Friday, he's not off the rails.

And the truth is, when you turn on the mainstream media over the weekend, it was recession, recession, recession, what no one is talking about is he has created $9.2 trillion in stock market value since he's been elected, six million new jobs, 600,000 new manufacturing jobs, there is no recession.

We are at a 50-year low for unemployment claims, we've got the lowest unemployment rates for African-American, Hispanic-Americans, you know all the statistics but that's the narrative that the media wants to go after the president on. Just in case the inverted curve which no one in the world actually knows what it means goes upside down for 15 seconds, they're going to blame the president.

The truth is, we are the hottest economy in the world because of the tax cuts that he pushed through and the deregulation environment that his administration has done.

MACCALLUM: All right. We're out of time because we obviously took up a lot of time with that first interview. I'm glad you're around for that. And next time you come we're going to talk about the potential Senate race for you in New Hampshire.

LEWANDOWSKI: Pleasure.

MACCALLUM: Thank you, Corey.

LEWANDOWSKI: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Good to see you tonight.

Coming up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES O'NEILL, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: It is clear that Daniel Pantaleo can no longer effectively serve as a New York City police officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: What a story this is, what happens if the police are fearful of doing their jobs because the, quote, "Ferguson effect has taken root in America."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK LYNCH, PRESIDENT, NYC PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: There's a saying within the police department that's been banded around for some time that said, the job is dead. In reality, the job has been dying and today, the job is dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Strong words, where are we headed one police in New York and Chicago and Baltimore fear reprisal for doing their job? That's what he's saying.

Heather Mac Donald calls it the Ferguson effect when they see other officers fired even after there is a city investigation and in this case two federal investigations that all three found the officer in this case to be not guilty.

New York City police officers this week expressed shock and outrage that Officer Daniel Pantaleo, who was involved in Eric Garner's death, was fired after political pressure from the mayor and presidential candidate Bill de Blasio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNCH: No evidence for indictment, that wasn't enough for our leaders, then they pushed for a federal investigation. And there was one. There was two. And they too found no evidence of a crime.

This is a police commissioner who went to that station house and said we have Officer Pantaleo's back, he did nothing wrong. So, I asked, what's changed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, today, that same police commissioner who said he had Pantaleo's back and that he did nothing wrong, who has now fired him appeared on CBS this morning, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'NEILL: It was a difficult decision. Danny Pantaleo was right where we told him to be. The lieutenant sent him there. Based on the work, the trial, the evidence, testimony, and after I looked at all the evidence, that was the decision that I made and I thought that was the one that had to be made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, now, Lynch says that officers are operating in their jobs in a whole new reality and he has cautioned them saying, quote, "We are urging all New York City police officers to proceed with the utmost caution in this new reality in which they may be deemed reckless just for doing their job." He says.

So, let's bring in Ed Mullins, president of the NYPD Sergeants Benevolent Association and Heather Mac Donald who has studied police and law enforcement across this country for years, a Manhattan Institute fellow. She's the author of "War on Cops: How the New Attack on Law and Order Makes Everyone Less Safe." Thank you both for being here. Ed, what do you see going on here?

ED MULLINS, PRESIDENT, NYPD SERGEANTS BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: I see exactly what you just described, the police officers in this city are very concerned about their next job, what's going to happen on their next assignment. They are not really focused on these quality-of-life crimes.

The vagrants in the street, the disorderly people because this is where things go wrong. I do know that people walking around the streets have become victims of violent crimes, they call 911 the police are responding - - and we should. We shouldn't be in a situation where someone loses their life or an officer gets hurt or anything along those lines.

But just two weeks ago, a woman in Greenwich Village was assaulted and numerous witnesses called 911 and police didn't make an arrest, they avoided it. So, we are really going down a slippery slope, and I think the good people in the city really need to come out in force and start demanding accountability from the mayor.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MULLINS: And a lame duck police commissioner.

MACCALLUM: This is Bill Barr talking about this not too long ago in New Orleans in the big picture, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Over the past few years there have been increasing vocal minority that regularly attacks the police and advances the narrative that it is the police who are the bad guys, not the criminals.

And whenever there is a confrontation involving the use of force by police, they automatically start screaming for the officer's scalps, regardless of the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So, Heather, a very different interpretation at the federal level than what we are seeing in some of these cities, in New York, in Chicago, and Baltimore.

HEATHER MAC DONALD, AUTHOR, WAR ON COPS: Well, the problem here, this is an agonizing decision and it's tragic that Eric Garner lost his life, O'Neill was facing two angry constituencies.

But the real problem here is that police chiefs including O'Neill have been cowards over the last couple of years. They have allowed this race-based narrative to become utterly dominant in public discourse rather than educating the public and the press about why officers are in high crime neighborhoods.

It's because the good law-abiding people in those communities beg for more officers, for more enforcement to get the dealers off the streets --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, that's true.

MAC DONALD: -- to get the low-level offenders off the streets, and instead, they allow this racial narrative to come that somehow Eric Garner died because he was black. Race had nothing to do with this. But when they let this poisonous narrative get out of control, then they find themselves at the end of the day faced with this terrible decision of allegedly providing justice, racial justice for the black community or maybe being more careful about the facts.

And when officers back off of proactive policing, the data is utterly clear. Crime goes through the roof and the people that suffer are the law- abiding residents of minority communities.

MACCALLUM: Ed, do you agree with that?

MULLINS: I totally agree with that. I agree O'Neill is a coward. I think many of the chiefs and the politicians don't back --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: He was a police officer for 34 years I think, right?

MULLINS: Well, his background is somewhat checkered and people don't really bring that out. He has been a police officer for 30, or 40 years, I believe he said. You know, he has been Bratton's protege the whole time and we got a lot of issues to tie back to incompetency and we're seeing it now.

But ultimately, the problem we have is police in the city in New York and what Heather just said, the real victims are going to be people in poor communities, minority communities and the truth to the matter is that they do support the police. They want the police there. And it's the silent majority that is allowing this to occur because the squeaky wheel is getting the grease. It's all done to --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I just need to point out that the deputy police commissioner, Maldonado did an investigation after, as we said, there was a Staten Island investigation and two federal investigations, all that found no criminal activity on the part of this officer, why did she find it? We heard the police commissioner say that when he looked at the evidence, he believed that the firing was merited.

MULLINS: Well, the police commissioner is not telling everyone the truth, because I know for a fact that police commissioner was not going to fire Officer Pantaleo. This changed between Friday and Monday morning, there was a big argument between him and the mayor. This has been accounted to me through a numerous people who told me what occurred at city hall.

He was going to give them his pension, the PBA had a deal with the commissioner to not fire him and allow Officer Pantaleo to walk out the door at least keep his pension. He's made over 300 rests in the city of New York, he had a good record fighting crime, he's an anti-crime officer who was sent out to enforce cigarettes -- that's not what anti-crime officers do.

MACCALLUM: Ed, thank you very much. Heather, great to see you both. Thank you both.

MAC DONALD: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, there are fires burning across the Amazon forest and the social media campaign that has followed is exploding. But is it being fueled at least in part by some pictures that don't actually line up with THE STORY? We're going to explain what's going on out there in social media, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Well, the Amazon rainforest is on fire, there's no doubt about that -- it is terrible to witness. This time of year is a dry season, fires are common at this point in the year.

Brazil says that there is a sharp increase this year. NASA says the numbers a bit lower this year but have you seen the explosion on social media? Criticism that the story is not being covered enough. That the fire at Notre Dame got more attention than this one.

But this story is growing like wildfire on its own on social media pushed out by President Macron, by Leonardo DiCaprio -- the problem is some of the photos that are being posted, some of them are 30 years old. Some of them are actually in India, so what is actually happening here?

Chief breaking news correspondent Trace Gallagher here to sift through the fact and the fiction in THE STORY tonight. Hi, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Whether the numbers are up or down, it's burning and that's a concern and social media is using the fires to raise awareness and money, perhaps, though sharing images of the fire should actually share images of the fires.

For example, today French President Emmanuel Macron posted this on Twitter, quoting, "Our house is burning, literally, the Amazon rainforest, the lungs which produces 20 percent of our planet's oxygen is on fire. It's an international crisis. Members of the G7 summit, let's discuss this emergency, first order in two days."

Actor Leonardo DiCaprio posted the very same photo on Instagram and got a 3.4 million likes. The problem is, the photo is from last year and it's a stock picture.

Then UNILAD, a web site that post viral video shared this on Facebook, quoting, "The final judgment is coming. The lungs of the earth are on fire and the record-breaking infernos which can be seen have from space have plunged Sao Paulo into darkness." Except that photo, at least 20 years old.

And blogger Nathalie Munoz posted this picture saying, "Animals in the Amazon are dying? You see the circle there? But the picture of the adult and a smaller monkey is from 2016 and it's from India.

Finally, the actor David Licauco shared these four photos on Twitter, none of which is the current fire in the Amazon. The fake photos have even prompted the progressive Mother Jones web site to say "enough with the photos of the Amazon burning already." Martha.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, if you want to stir people and get them interested in something it's good to do it in a factual way. Trace, thank you very much.

More of “The Story” coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: That is “The Story” of this Thursday, August 22, 2019. But as always, you know THE STORY goes on. So, we'll be back here tomorrow night. See you then at 7 p.m. Now Tucker Carlson live in Washington, D.C. Good night, everybody.

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