New questions over if Russia was really involved in email hacking

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," January 3, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I am Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Geraldo Rivera, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. Its 5:00 in New York City and this is "The Five"."

Happy 2017 everyone.


GUILFOYLE: Greg had a good time, and we hope you all had a great holiday weekend. A ton of news to break down tonight. We begin with the Russian hacking controversy. The Obama administration has implicated Moscow for disrupting our election. But on New Year's Eve, our president-elect expressed doubts that Russia was to blame for cyber-attacks on Democratic Party officials.


PRESIDENT-ELECT DONALD TRUMP: -- and I know a lot about hacking and hacking is very hard thing to prove. So it could be someone else. And I also know things other people don't know and so they cannot be sure of the situation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Things like what do you know that other people don't know?

TRUMP: You'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday.


GUILFOYLE: The founder of WikiLeaks adamantly denies Russia was his source for hacked emails his group released before the election. Here's Julian Assange in an exclusive interview with Sean Hannity that airs tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.


SEAN HANNITY, HOST, "HANNITY": Can you say to the American people unequivocally that you did not get this information about the DNC, John Podesta's emails, can you tell the American people 1000 percent you did not get it from Russia or anybody associated with Russia?

JULIAN ASSANGE, FOUNDER, WIKILEAKS: We can say and we have said repeatedly over the last two months that our source is not the Russian government and it is not state party.


GUILFOYLE: OK, so big interview, an exclusive, Eric, with Julian Assange. Sean Hannity sat down with him echoing the same statements that he's made before which is, that he said that the Russians were not his source for those hacked leaked material.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: And also he clarified even further and said, and not a state player, not a state actor which would tell you -- so they couldn't or lead you to believe Julian Assange. They wouldn't have used an outside source to leak this, you know, just to get the information, they hack and they hand it over but financed by the Russian government if you believe what you heard right there, which I do.

I've maintained from the very beginning this is about, you know, it could even be a leak, it could even be an inside leak from within the DNC. Some of the stuff is there, some phishing scams going on. You know, Podesta actually opened an email -- open here for, you know, this great offer -- you open it and it ends up eating into their -- inside their data.

But if Julian Assange is -- and WikiLeaks is all about transparency, is all about bringing truth to light, right, then you would have to believe that it didn't come from the Russians. My biggest problem was that McCain and Lindsey Graham saying they're going to lead the next congress into more strident and stringent sanctions against the Russians before we even know what the evidence is.

GUILFOYLE: OK, so Dana, there's an investigation that is underway. Obviously it would make sense to be able to get the full amount of information from the variety of agencies before making a factual determination one way or the other.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I just find this whole thing totally bewildering and I don't understand actually -- I have a question. S, you said that if Assange says -- because WikiLeaks is supposed to be about transparency, if what Assange, we should take as proof?

BOLLING: Well, if you believe what he's about, leaking truth, exposing truth. You know, I haven't seen any -- correct me if I'm wrong -- I haven't seen anything where WikiLeaks has actually brought something out that was inaccurate. They are just leaking information.

GERALDO RIVERA, GUEST CO-HOST: How about the fact the guy is a fugitive from two sex assault charges and he's been hiding right in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.

BOLLING: Again, it shows --

RIVERA: And I wouldn't believe the stuff (ph) you said today was inaccurate. BOLLING: That's a different story. Listen, I don't disagree with you on a personal level but everything he has done that I know o, well I'm maybe wrong, but I know he's been leaking information --

RIVERA: You believe him because you like what he leaked. You did not believe when --

BOLLING: You know, that's a fair assessment.

RIVERA: -- it was Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning or the video of the tower Apache choppers --

BOLLING: Por favor, I'm (inaudible) well.

GUTFELD: Here's the -- may be what he leaked was the truth but he leaked the names of Afghans who are helping us fight the Taliban so it may have been true but he screwed over a lot of people and put people's lives in danger. The bottom line is Assange went from a hero, I mean from zero to a hero among the right because he is screwing over Obama. Bottomline.

RIVERA: Agree.

GUTFELD: There's nothing -- that's all it is.

GUILFOYLE: Well, and Hillary.

GUTFELD: Yes, exactly. But there's a difference between hacking and phishing. Hacking is you break into somebody's safe and you steal their money. Phishing is when you steal somebody's bicycle because they left it out in front of a liquor store. So we have to define what we're talking about.

This may not be hacking. It may be phishing. But that's separate from Assange. We can't, you know, we have to understand, Assange is playing us and will play us. When he has information on Fox, when he has information on Trump, he's going to use it too and we're all going to be like, wow, what a bunch of suckers we were.

BOLLING: Or being consistent saying, yeah, wow, that sucks that he did that but again, show me the inaccuracy.

RIVERA: I wonder what your tone would be if it was the RNC instead of the DNC.

BOLLNG: Oh, the tone would be very different. It was different. In fact before, Greg is 100 percent right. I'm guilty of this from day one. When we first learned about WikiLeaks, I was like, wow, this is terrible. This guy is awful. And now I'm saying I have a different tone but I'm being consistent here. I like the fact --

RIVERA: He allegedly raped two interns.

BOLLING: Oh, Geraldo, that has nothing to do with what he's leaking.

RIVERA: No, I wonder what it has got to do with it -- has a thing to do with it.

BOLLING: I am not saying he is a stand-up guy and I want to, you know, I want to go on vacation with him.

RIVERA: The guy is a rundown, dirty, scumbag --

BOLLING: Are you accusing him of leaking anything inaccurate?

RIVERA: I am accusing him of being anti-American. I believe that he has in his interest to undermine the American democracy --

BOLLING: Is Snowden anti-American?

RIVERA: -- and he chose to do it this way. I think that Snowden is also anti-American.

BOLLING: I disagree with you on that one.

GUILFOYLE: All right, well the WikiLeaks founder also offered some insight on why he thinks the Obama administration is pinning the hacking on Russia. Here is more from Sean's exclusive interview with Julian Assange.


ASSANGE: Our publications had wide uptake by the American people. They are all true. But that's not the allegation that is being presented by the Obama White House. So, why such a dramatic response? Well, the reason is obvious. They are trying to delegitimize the Trump administration as it goes into the White House. They're going to try -- they are trying to say that president-elect Trump is not a legitimate president.


GUILFOYLE: All right, Dana, your reaction to that aspect of Assange. This is Obama being sort of covert and trying to pin this on to Russia.

PERINO: I think a couple things for Trump.


PERINO: But I missed joke. What's our joke? I missed it. OK. Tell me in the break.


PERINO: OK. I think that part of this could be true, right. So, it would behoove the Democrats to be able to pin their devastating loss on something other than Hillary's bad campaign and she was a bad candidate.


PERINO: In my mind, like if you're trying to justify a loss and explain to your donors why you blew a billion dollars on an ultimately a winnable race, and she didn't even go to Wisconsin. All those things, it would help you, I guess, to say well look, the Russians hacked in the DNC therefore the Russians are going to be punished and the Democrats can't comfort themselves with the thought that that's why they lost the election.

I think that could possibly be true. But I also think that we know from President Obama that he knew in October something was going on with the Russians because he tells us later that he told Putin to knock it off. I don't know if Putin did or didn't.

That's the other thing that so frustrating about this, is that the politicization of intelligence and it's putting me and other people I think in a strangely uncomfortable partisan position. I don't know what the truth is. Donald Trump says he has more information or different information than the intel community. They maybe are going to get together this week. I don't even know how much of that they can tell us anyway.

GUTFELD: But there's one positive thing to get out of this and that is we're finally -- if we get past the politics, you know, we get in and Trump is president and everybody is kind of calming down. We can focus on the nature of the threats. Thank God this was some kind of low-level phishing and could have been worse.

We have to start thinking about what this means, the larger scope of technology and terror when you have rogue nations and isolated agents like ISIS who can paralyze and pulverize our systems. At least now we are being pointed in the right direction, even if this was just a bunch of guys phishing with like emails about, you know, yes.

GUILFOYLE: What we should be concerned about cyber security and any kind of threats and anyone who would choose to try to influence the United States presidential election or interfere with our government process to begin with. That there is information about China hacking, you know, into the White House before what was done about that. So when you look at reciprocity and in terms of their reaction and actions towards it, where were all the sanctions then against China?

PERINO: And maybe there were actions but they didn't announce them.


PERINO: So why the announcement of this one is strange. I do think also it's worth reading because people have a chance to go back, last week in "The Wall Street Journal" there was an op-ed by a guy named Edward J. Epstein and it was called "The Fable o Ed Snowden" and it does this interesting, his analysis of a connection between Snowden and Assange and how Assange sent his deputy to Hong Kong to take Snowden back to Russia.

So, I could see where if you're sitting at the White House, you're thinking why can't people see this obviously for what it is? But there is just no trust with the intelligence community. I don't know how much more they can tell us, show us.

BOLLING: They can give us the exact, you know, right now, we're understanding that 17 intelligence agencies have the information that led them to believe that the Russians hacked the DNC --


BOLLING: Yes, but they won't show us -- not one has shown us what they have, Geraldo, and that's the point. Now we have a guy who leaked them saying they're wrong. There is no Russian attachment to this.

RIVERA: Let's assume for a second that Assange is telling the literal truth. It was not a state actor. If Vladimir Putin gets 100 bright Russian cyber kids and gives them the highest powered, high voltage, high octane Mac computer and says go do this to Podesta as Gmail, and it's not the KGB. I mean he could literally be finessing the truth. He could --

BOLLING: That would be a state actor. Vladimir Putin as president of Russia are hiring --

RIVERA: Do you disbelieve --

BOLLING: Here's what I believe --

RIVERA: -- the president of the United States and his intelligence agencies when they say with confidence that it was the Russians who did it and they have the Cyrillic keyboard and all the rest. Do you disbelieve our president and our intelligence community?

BOLLING: I would like to see --

RIVERA: Answer that.

BOLLING: Let me answer you this way. I also believe that we weren't being data mined by the NSA, every single American, until Edward Snowden whistle blow and said guess what, they go around (inaudible) every single American's data is being mined illegally.

RIVERA: Well, I didn't know that either.

BOLLING: I've trusted their men (ph) too.

RIVERA: Take his point. Now we're all settled. Everybody is in office. God bless the 45th president of the United States. How concerned are you now about cyber security?

BOLLING: Oh, but by the way, your scenario where Putin has 100 of their best and brightest is probably one of 100 countries doing the exact same thing.

RIVERA: I don't disagree. I don't disagree.

GUTFELD: OK, here's how you can look at WikiLeaks --

GUIILFOYLE: -- power (ph) the president is going to handle it.

GUTFELD: Ultimately WikiLeaks is a conduit for extortion. All right, someone phishes you then goes to you and demands money, you say no. The phisher can actually give it to WikiLeaks and Assange because therefore their hands are clean and Assange goes, I am all about transparency. I'm going to screw you over.

BOLLING: But do we have that though? Do we have any evidence where someone is saying I got this Podesta --

GUTFELD: But let me, OK --

BOLLING: But if you don't give me money --

GUTFELD: But your argument is like you would rather trust Assange than our military intelligence. I mean, we have conservatives that are now basically smearing our intelligence.

BOLLING: No, no. In one hand with Assange, I see emails, I see names with emails. On the other hand, 17 intelligence agencies are telling us trust us, it happened. Meanwhile, no one is willing to step up and say here's one shred of evidence.

RIVERA: Nor has the president-elect with all due respect, nor has the president-elect.

GUILFOYLE: Well we have to see though in fact if he does that because we have to give him a chance to get into office where it's his, you know, it's appropriate for him.

RIVERA: He said it would happen today or tomorrow.

GUILFOYLE: Right, he did say that, but we also have to see what's happening behind the scenes in terms of when he's going to offer (ph) that kind of evidence and support and what he decides to tell the American people --

BOLLING: And if there is that evidence --

GUILFOYLE: And maybe he waits until he says --

BOLLING: -- if there is that evidence, I'm front and center saying, sanction them. Harder sanctions than these toothless sanctions we've offered so far.

GUTFELD: I have advice to Chelsea Manning. Start bashing Obama. The Republicans are going to love you.

GUILFOYLE: You know he's actually requesting that President Obama pardon him, right -- her -- him.


GUTFELD: She should actually -- she should say -- she should say that she believes that Donald Trump is doing the right thing and then all of a sudden we'll love Chelsea Manning just the way we now love Assange.


RIVERA: That makes two of us.

GUILFOYLE: Part one of Sean Hannity's exclusive interview with Julian Assange airs tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on Fox News Channel. Don't miss that. Much more to come on "The Five." Never a dull moment because it's a brand new year and a new era in Washington. The new Congress sworn in today. Republicans in control are gearing up to unravel eight years-worth of president Obama's policies. Next.


PERINO: Today, the 115th Congress was sworn in on Capitol Hill. Republicans control both houses and they're gearing up to enact the most ambitious conservative policy agenda in decades with the Republican president taking office in 17 days. Their mission, to unravel eight years of president Obama's policies starting with ObamaCare. Minority leader Nancy Pelosi is warning Republicans to exercise caution.


REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF., MINORITY LEADER: The fact is it's the old thing of going into a china shop. You break it. You own it. And this is -- they're dealing with something that is very, when I say complex, it's sophisticated. They have shown nothing in their ranting and raving that shows any level of knowledge of where they would go or where they would take this.


PERINO: Incoming White House counselor Kellyanne Conway says the president-elect will follow through on his pledge to voters.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, INCOMINNG WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: -- he's committed to repeal and replacing ObamaCare so it is more fair to people, you know, Katie, we hear from people about this issue almost more than anything else. This and Veterans Care. And what they say are two quick things. One is I thought I was going to get better coverage but I've just been cut. My hours were cut down to 25 to not get that coverage (INAUDIBLE) and now I have two jobs and no coverage.

Number two, it's people who thought that they have great coverage. Now they feel like their premiums have increased. Their choices in access are decreased and the quality is less.


PERINO: So Greg, you heard Nancy Pelosi there who, remember, she was the one who said you have to pass it in an order to find out what's in it. And then she said if you break it, you buy it. Now the Republicans want to fix it and I guess if they fix it, they still have to buy it.

GUTFELD: I'm still confused.

PERINO: Somebody call the hardware store.

GUTFELD: Her voice is like butter made of steel wool. When you hear it, it just grates along your brain. Now, they claim that they're going to be accountable, right. We're going to force the president to be accountable. So, it's like going outside after eight years to the bright sun. They've been wearing blindfolds for the past eight years, not holding president Obama accountable for anything. And now all of a sudden they're going to wake up and do their job. Shut up.

PERINO: Speaking of that, here is the Democratic majority leader -- I'm sorry -- minority leader Chuck Schumer on that very issue.


SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, D-N.Y., MINORITY LEADER: This will be an accountability congress and we will be a caucus that makes sure the president-elect keeps his commitment to truly make America great again. If president-elect Trump lets the hard right members of Congress and his cabinet run the show, if he attempts to adopt their time worn policies which benefit the elites, the special interests, corporate America, not the working man and woman, his presidency will not succeed.


PERINO: All right. I guess you've been warned.

GUILFOYLE: OK, scary (ph) Schumer. I was so scared, right. He was like looking down talking about the elites.

PERINO: I'd say that wasn't his best performance.

GUILFOYLE: It certainly wasn't. So again, it just shows that the Democratic Party is bereft of promising compelling leadership. There are certainly no orators present like Barack Obama to try to help them. You know, he's trying to basically do a shot across the bow to the president- elect. I don't think this going to frighten the 45th president of the United States.

I mean he's going to say, I'm going to run my game. I'm going to run my show. I'm going to do what I intend to do and on with the promises to the American people. I don't think Chuck Schumer is going to have the sway to try to terrify him, bottom line.

PERINO: So, earlier also Nancy Pelosi was talking about on ObamaCare how the Republicans don't have any plans to replace it but Kellyanne Conway answered that part as well.


CONWAY: One of the big priorities for president-elect Trump and his Republican congress would be to make it easier for Americans to purchase health care across state lines. We also were talking about a more patient- centric fee market system.

KATIE COURIC, GLOBAL NEWS ANCHOR, YAHOO NEWS: There are some aspects of the Affordable Care Act that Donald Trump has in fact praised. Is he committed to maintaining those parts of the law?

CONWAY: He is committed to retaining those pieces that his advisors will say are working.


PERINO: I think Eric, that Congress and especially the Senate, the budget rules, the parliamentarian, nitpicking it all together, will really frustrate the White House.

BOLLING: Yes, but also I saw Kellyanne this morning and also Sean Spicer talking about this and what was very refreshing is I see, yes, we are going to repeal ObamaCare piecemeal. You know, they'll take it apart that way they can do right from the very get-go, from the very start, which is what Pelosi was warning against.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: But then Spicer came back and said, "And that will buy us time to come up with a plan," because he was asked, well, what's the replacement plan? He said, "Well, hold on a second, the problem with ObamaCare is it's a one-sided plan.

There was Democrats had an idea, it was all there idea and the Republicans didn't really get to put any input into it, and he said that the Trump administration wants to take the Democrats, embrace them -- their ideas and come up with something that works for both sides. I hope they do that. I think they'll do that and I think --

PERINO: Yes, Geraldo, don't you -- I don't know if you agree with this or not, but wouldn't it be smart of Democrats to try to help fix it at this point?

RIVERA: Well, I think first of all Donald Trump with his tweets this morning on the Senate ethics or the Congressional ethics oversight was brilliant. He showed beyond a doubt that he's the new sheriff in town.

The Republicans dominate the Congress but Donald Trump dominates the Republicans. He is the boss. He's going to be the 45th president. I think anyone who voted for him can be very proud of him today. I think that he was absolutely the courageous, independent thinker that we thought he was all these long months and the decades that I've known him.

I think that Ryan and McCarthy and these other guys, they better get their act together when it comes to ObamaCare specifically. I think that he has made very clear he's not going to touch Medicaid, he's not going to touch social security. ObamaCare, Eric's idea to cross state lines, I think they'll adopt that, and that's great. They should have had that. Obama should have had that a long time ago, but I think -- you're not going to see an up -- you're not going to see a profound upheaval of the status quo.

BOLLING: Can I add something? The tweet Donald Trump did that changed the gutting of that ethics committee was brilliant but it also told every Republican, relax. I mean they walked into the 115th Congress on day one to say, hey, look at this. We got policy of the Senate. We have the White House in 17 days. This is going to be great.

Let's start with this. Who thought that the first thing -- order of business would be the gutting -- an ethics committee would be the first order of business, would be a smart thing to do and to his credit, you're right Geraldo, Donald Trump put a stop to it and said --


GUTFELD: Who is the guy that's going like, we've got to stop the ethics? It's the guy who's definitely got something on him.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, exactly.


GUILFOYLE: It's the guiltiest guy in the room.

RIVERA: All people being investigated or have been investigated.

PERINO: He actually probably could have gotten that done -- they probably could have gotten it done with bipartisan support if they had chosen to, but the more interesting thing was that Ryan and McCarthy were against it and they held a secret vote anyway. I mean --

RIVERA: On a Monday night where --

GUILFOYLE: But it just, yes, there was no impetus for that to say this is (inaudible) circumstances. Whatever we do, let's rush this. This is our lead. It shows just bad timing and poor judgment and it shows also the economy of the new president-elect to come in and say boom and squash something like that and make his voice heard --


PERINO: But what he said was, do you really want to spend your time doing that?

GUILFOYLE: Which is a good question, a good question.

PERINO: OK, big news today from the nation's top two automakers, GM and Ford, both involves production in Mexico. President-elect Trump of course has a lot to say about it all so, we'll be back with that, next.


BOLLING: The nation's two largest automakers making some big news today. In a turnaround, Ford announced its scrapping its plans to build a brand new $1.6 billion plant in Mexico. It will invest in a Michigan manufacturing base instead. The move comes just hours after president-elect Donald Trump blasted rival General Motors for building some of its cars south of the border in a tweet no less. Here's Ford CEO on his motivation to reverse course.


MARK FIELDS, CEO AND PRESIDENT, FORD MOTORS: We are encouraged by the pro- growth policies that president-elect Trump and the new Congress have indicated that they will pursue. And we believe that these tax and regulatory reforms are critically important to boost U.S. competiveness and of course drive a resurgence in American manufacturing and high-tech innovation.


BOLLING: All right, KHG, taxes and regulatory reforms.


BLLING: Business leaders like it.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Business leaders do like it. This should be an environment where businesses thrive in this country. This country was founded on the principles of free market and economic competition.

That's why this would work, as well, for ObamaCare, to say, "Let's be able to let people buy stuff across state lines. Let's make this an environment that's attractive for businesses to invest in this country," like we see with the companies saying, "OK. Let's build the plants here. Let's make sure that there's manufacturing jobs. Let's put people back into work on the assembly line."

All of these things would be very good, will help drive the economy and the numbers. But you also have to make sure that you are not overly regulated.  Because that does stifle the businesses, and it does stifle entrepreneurship. That, coupled with a really problematic area of healthcare, where people don't want to hire long-term employees full-time, which basically, it leads to better job numbers, because they are reticent to do so in a hostile work environment.

BOLLING: And Dana, in a strange twist of events, the United Auto Workers are happy with Donald Trump today for keeping 700 more jobs here.

PERINO: But you can tell. There is definitely a palpable feeling amongst business leaders in America that things are going to get better. And I think that that sort of confidence is showing through in some of these decisions.

And so while some of -- I think that some of the companies are trying to be a little too cute by half, right? They're trying to have it both ways.  They're announcing things that were already announced, or they're coming forward with P.R. -- in some way, some P.R. stunts, because some of these jobs were never leaving anyway.

That said, I think it's a net plus. Jobs in America are a good thing. And now I think the task beyond that is to look ahead ten to 15 years. Because we even know with Carrier, they said that their future is in automation.  So jobs are going to change in America. We have to make sure that there are jobs for those people on the other end, as well.

BOLLING: Greg, I alluded to it in the intro, that Donald Trump this morning tweeted, "Hey, GM, General Motors, if you're going to build those cars in Mexico and send them in, get ready for a big fat border tax." And that made Ford say, "Well, hold on a second. Maybe we'll keep some of these jobs here."

GUTFELD: That is exactly right, because that isn't -- that is not tax reform. That is a threat.

So what you're talking about, really -- and I'm going to be the wet blanket here -- you're replacing the invisible hand with a government hand. And what's the end result? Ultimately, it's a place like Venezuela.

The great thing about capitalism and free markets is that it's re- distributing the processes, so that, if a company fails, there's another company that will take its place.

But when you centralize the power and let the government to control, when the government makes a huge mistake, everybody suffers.

So I think that these things are interesting, if it's based on, you know, promising tax reform and promising just, you know, lower regulation. But threats of tariffs is protectionism. It's -- on the spectrum from capitalism to socialism, where dos that lead? Here. Socialism.

RIVERA: It is strictly not...

GUILFOYLE: There has to be an incentive on the other side.

BLITZER: But can we just point out...

RIVERA: Exactly.

BLITZER: The Ford CEO didn't -- said he wasn't affected by the facts...

RIVERA: Oh, he's punked out. That's baloney.

BLITZER: He was affected by the lower tax and regulatory environment.

RIVERA: He was affected by the tweet, just like those guys in the Congress. I love that Trump is tweeting. He is going right to the American people. He's bypassing all of us. He's talking right to the people. He is saying, "This is what I want," and he's getting it.

But this is not free market. And I've got news for you. You've got 15,000 jobs that were going to be created just on the other side of the Mexican border that now won't be created.

PERINO: I thought of that.

RIVERA: What are those 15,000 guys going to do? That wall better be 1,000 miles high.

PERINO: I thought of that this morning.

RIVERA: Because now you've got 15,000 eager...

BOLLING: We'll hire them to build the wall.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, but the problem. Just real quick, Bolling, the problem is this whole focus on globalization that we've seen over the past eight years, instead of focusing on America first...

BOLLING: More than eight.

GUILFOYLE: ... has -- for sure -- has made it very difficult for people to keep their jobs, to plan their retirement, feed their families. And this is going to put the focus back here on American soil. And there has to be incentives for them to be able to...

GUTFELD: Globalization has helped people feed their families by lowering the prices of food.

BOLLING: That is true. Except in nationalism, we can have our families feed their families better, because there will be more...

GUTFELD: I think we need to listen to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nationalism.

RIVERA: Get those coal mines going again. That's another shovel of coal.  Let's all be Beijing. We're all going to be Beijing now.


RIVERA: We're all going to have coal burners in our homes.

BOLLING: In favor of this place. American jobs in America.

RIVERA (singing): West Virginia, mountain mama.

BOLLING: Make it here, produce it here, sell it here, buy it here.

Ahead, the Obama administration keeps trying to rewrite history as it heads out the door. This time, one of the president's closest advisors is trying to convince the world her boss has a squeaky-clean legacy, with zero to be embarrassed about. We'll help jog Valerie Jarrett's memory next.


GUTFELD: On Sunday, Val Jarrett went on CNN to defend her pal, President Obama. Hmm, I wonder if the president prides himself on the fact that his administration hasn't had a scandal and that he hasn't done something to embarrass himself?


VALERIE JARRETT, OBAMA ADVISER: The president prides himself on the fact that the administration hasn't had a scandal and that he hasn't done anything to embarrass himself.


GUTFELD: Now, that's a low bar for achievement, he hasn't embarrassed himself. But it's true, no one on his staff was caught in bed with a giraffe -- yet.

But to agree with Val, you've got to ignore the IRS, the DOJ, Benghazi, Secret Service, Bowe Bergdahl, and the secret server that led to the orange crush.

GUILFOYLE: That's funny.

GUTFELD: And now, technically it's a scandal telling America you can keep your doctor, a callous deception that hurts millions. And it's a scandal to deny a toxic doctrine fomenting apocalyptic violence. And it's a scandal to ignore the modern black death, a plague currently crippling Chicago.

Obama's tenure had more dirty linen then Charlie Sheen's hamper. But when your heart's in the right place, doing the wrong thing is always forgivable, and maybe scandal was just so common we got used to it.

But that's not the point. If I were Obama, I'd gladly take a messy scandal over the moral catastrophic failure of the last eight years. It's the corrosive ambivalence about who we are as a nation as we switched pride for shame. We became our own villains rather than assessing the bigger challenges that threaten all of us.

So yes, congrats on a scandal-free reign. That and a dollar will get you four quarters.

GUILFOYLE: All righty, then.

GUTFELD: I'm going to miss Val.


GUTFELD: I'm going to miss her. She was the true president.

GUILFOYLE: The true? You think?

GUTFELD: She was the puppet master. Above President Obama.

GUILFOYLE: That's true. She really was. So maybe it's more of a reflection that she's saying that she has nothing to be ashamed of, that this was an amazing legacy.

But I mean, what about Fast and Furious, IRS...

GUTFELD: Right. I left off a few.

GUILFOYLE: ... and what about all of the veterans who suffered, not getting...


GUILFOYLE: Right, the V.A. That is a huge problem...


GUILFOYLE: ... that needs to be fixed immediately. Like, emergency; put that to the front of the line.

But they kind of just go, "Oh, it's no problem." IRS spying on journalist James Rosen. Ask him and his family what he thinks about that.

So they don't see it, though, because they have these new lenses that are called scandal-free. And they've got a protective coating so they don't see anything that's actually really happening out there. Must be nice.

GUTFELD: Geraldo, was the point -- was that there were no, like, Monica Lewinsky? There were no exciting scandals? Like sex scandals?

RIVERA: I think the last part of your monologue was correct. I mean, in terms of the values, or kind of lost ground in the Middle East and so forth.

But you have to admit, no one was impeached. Nobody was indicted.

GUTFELD: Low bar.

RIVERA: Kimberly mentions the Veterans Administration, which is the true - - only true scandal, in my opinion. And General Shinseki was a great general; was a lousy administrator. He was forced to resign. But that wasn't corruption. That was competence.

So I think that the basic integrity of Barack Obama cannot and should not be questioned.

BOLLING: I think I -- we can do that. No, I think there's a foreign policy, a domestic policy.

RIVERA: Like what? Like what?

BOLLING: Well, domestic policy...

RIVERA: Integrity we're talking, not politics.

BOLLING: Well, OK. Then I'll try and do this. I'll try and make a little bit of that leap.

Greg is right. The crime in Chicago is, I would say, the incompetent Department of Justice. But in a bigger -- in a bigger picture, questioning his integrity, the war on law enforcement that he's overseen. He's -- he didn't put an end to Black Lives Matter, the whole movement, this hatred that's going after cops. And it's getting cops killed, and it's making the country domestically less safe. I believe that at the bottom of my heart.  And I believe it was on purpose that he looked the other way on a lot of these things.

And on foreign policy, no doubt, I think the Iran deal will be his worst legacy in the history of presidential legacies, because I think Iran is going to thumb their nose at us, and they're going to say, "You know what?  We have the bomb." And -- and that was under Kerry and Obama.

GUILFOYLE: And ISIS going from J.V. to varsity. Want to thank you for that, too.

GUTFELD: Dana, when people look back, he's a historical president, obviously. First African-American. Beyond that, what kind of impact do you think they're...

PERINO: Well, I think the results are -- it's the issue. And so nothing says these eight years were terrible like Donald Trump kicking their rear end in the election.

GUTFELD: Yes. Watch your mouth.

PERINO: I know. I was on vacation; I'm a little loose.

RIVERA: Yes. That was pretty saucy.

PERINO: Their attempt to write the history, they want to be the first ones to write it.

But you know, Benghazi and who pushed the video. You know who really helped them create those scandal-free glasses were the media. Any time we talked -- remember, you talked about it. Was like, if FOX said it, the immediately, it wasn't an issue.

GUTFELD: Yes. Yes.

PERINO: And one of the big ones that nobody remembers -- the media didn't even cover it, was when the EPA administrator was writing emails under "Richard Windsor."


PERINO: And basically going -- basically doing political stuff she wasn't supposed to do from the EPA administrators office. And then she resigned to spend more time with her family, and the media just let it go.

GUTFELD: Yes. Exactly.

PERINO: That was a good one.

GUTFELD: The media spent all the time going after Trump for being his own press secretary. Remember when he was...

GUILFOYLE: John Miller?

GUTFELD: John Miller. That was a big deal. But he wasn't in government.  But this person was in government and actually...

PERINO: Yes. Richard Windsor.

GUTFELD: Yes. Was it a woman?

PERINO: It was a woman. I don't remember her name. See? Like nobody remembers.

BOLLING: Jackson.

GUTFELD: Lisa Jackson?

PERINO: Lisa Jackson.

GUTFELD: See? We don't even know.

GUILFOYLE: A pseudonym, yes.

GUTFELD: All right. Ahead, was it sabotage or does Mariah Carey only have herself to blame? That Times Square train wreck on New Year's Eve.  Kimberly and Eric witnessed the stage fright firsthand.


BOLLING: K.G., I don't know. I just saw something happen over here with one Mariah Carey. I think she -- I think she flipped out.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. There was something that went terribly wrong.

BOLLING: There was a meltdown going on. I don't know. We may be reading about this tomorrow in The Post.

GUILFOYLE: With her -- with her...


GUTFELD: Next on "The Five."






RIVERA: Higher. Mariah Carey, she looked great. One of America's greatest divas. But she had a major malfunction on the biggest stage of all, live from Times Square. Tens of millions of people around the world, including our own from up close, Kimberly and Eric. They had a front-row seat to the nuclear New Year's Eve meltdown.


BOLLING: But K.G., I don't know. I just saw something happen over here with one Mariah Carey. I think she -- I think she flipped out.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. There was something that went terribly wrong.

BOLLING: There was a meltdown going on there. I don't know. We may be reading about this tomorrow in The Post.

GUILFOYLE: With her -- with her live performance.


GUILFOYLE: And it seemed she got very upset and walked off the stage.  So...

BOLLING: All right, K.G.

GUILFOYLE: All right. So we're not sure, but you're probably going to hear about it pretty soon. We are witnessing here. That's why you have to be here in Times Square to catch all the news.


RIVERA: FOX News alert, we just got handed the interview she's done -- seriously -- with Entertainment Weekly.

"Now that you've had a few days distance on the New Year's Eve show, what are your feelings about it?" she was asked by EW.

The answer, Kimberly, Mariah Carey says, "All I can say is Dick Clark, the late Dick Clark was an incredible person. I was lucky enough to work with him when I first started in the music business. I am of the opinion that Dick Clark would not have let an artist go through that, and he would have been mortified, as I was in real time."

His company produced it. Whose fault was it?

GUILFOYLE: Well, it sounds a little bit like she's taking a shot at Ryan Seacrest. And then some of her crew was suggesting that she was sabotaged for ratings that embarrassed her.

I mean, look, there were audio issues down there, for sure. Because you have everybody broadcasting from every different network. I mean, from Telemundo to ABC, to FOX, to everyone. So there's a lot of, like, cross.  But they should have done a sound check before. My understanding was they didn't do that. And she didn't seem to be in the best condition.

RIVERA: Meaning what? She needed more clothing, what?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. That's what I meant. She wasn't properly dressed for the weather.

RIVERA: You know, Eric, you were there. These 50-cent earpieces can doom a $50 million production.

BOLLING: So my beautiful wife was standing three feet from Mariah Carey, and I'm looking down and she's looking up at me, like "Are you seeing this?" And I'm watching. And you could see Mariah Carey visibly upset.

But here's the thing. She didn't do the sound check, No. 1.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, she didn't.

BOLLING: No. 2, you practice this. No. 3, you're a professional. There's something. This can't be the first time your earpiece didn't work. You wing yet. You sing the song that's your biggest hit.

GUILFOYLE: Or sing something.

BOLLING: Or let the audience sing. But she did none of that. She freaked out, and she walked offstage, leaving her two young kids up on the stage.  It was -- it was a disaster.

GUILFOYLE: It was, like, a train wreck.

RIVERA: Dana, who do you blame?

PERINO: I want Mariah Carey to take comfort in the fact that I am probably the only American who didn't see it. I'll give her a pass.

GUILFOYLE: And we thank all the many Americans who were actually watching us than watching Mariah Carey.

PERINO: I watched you.

RIVERA: That's right.

PERINO: I missed that part.

RIVERA: Greg, who were you watching.

GUTFELD: Wait, I just got some breaking news here. Mariah Carey is dead.  Tired of this story.

Look, this really was a huge...

RIVERA: She's not dead. She's not dead.

GUTFELD: I said dead tired. This is truly an embarrassment. But enough about Don Lemon.

Did you see him pierce his ear? He's like a 12-year-old at Piercing Pagoda.

By the way, the only audio issue, the only audio issue from New Year's Eve is her voice. She sounds like a dolphin with hemorrhoids.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, she's going to have to do more with less, right?

RIVERA: Five Grammys, hundreds of millions of records sold. And he doesn't like her voice.

GUTFELD: Who cares? Who cares? I can't stand her voice!

RIVERA: "One More Thing" is up next.

PERINO: She's going on tour with Lionel Richie.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Time now for "One More Thing" -- Ms. Dana Perino.

PERINO: So I was away in South Carolina, Bluffton, South Carolina. I have a few pictures. Because you know, we like to do that here.

I played a lot of tennis, and the pros said that I went from a beginner to an intermediate in nine months. So look out on the court.

Macy English making the "One More Thing." She's "One More Thing" worthy.  There she is with a lot of whip cream all over her face, because she got in a little tussle with Peter.

There's the scavenger hunt. Family and friends, and Jasper, of course, on the dock. We had a lot of fun. And you know, family and friends. It was a really, really good time.

And my mom was there. She had the double knee replacement. Not only did she play tennis, which I showed you last week; she also played two rounds of golf. And she can walk everywhere, upstairs. So she's good. She is good to go.

GUTFELD: What, no dog?

PERINO: There was -- if you weren't looking at your phone, you would have seen the dog twice.

But I have another gift for Kimberly. This is...

GUILFOYLE: Firefighters.

PERINO: ... the Charleston Animal Society's 2017 firefighter calendar.  This benefits the -- Toby's Fund. And I think she likes it.

GUILFOYLE: I love these guys. This is why I keep getting locked in the bathroom, whatever. They come rescue me. They're very understanding. I love it.

GUTFELD: They're entirely hairless.

GUILFOYLE: I know. Let's see who Mr. March -- I'm sorry.

OK, Greg.

GUTFELD: All right. If you go to backslash -- or forward slash -- opinion. Never quite sure what it is. But say "slash opinion."  I originally was running an article review of "Sully," the movie. And then I started thinking about what happens to human heroes in the era of artificial intelligence and algorithms? When no longer hero -- you don't need people to save you in a car or to save you in a plane. So I wrote a piece about the future of heroism. And I think you should check it out.  Please do.

PERINO: It's good.

GUTFELD: Thank you very much.

PERINO: You're welcome.

GUILFOYLE (looking at calendar): Wow.

GUTFELD: Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: May... OK, I'm sorry.

OK, so I have a very special story tonight, and it's going to inspire all of you at home to never give up pursuing your dreams and about the love of a mother for her son.

So this is 22-year-old Joey Fleming. And he has autism. He was recently awarded a Rhodes scholarship and is headed to the University of Oxford later this year, thanks in large part to the measures of his mother. She was getting out of medical school and had a choice to pursue her career or homeschool her son, which he did.


GUILFOYLE: And it's really an incredible story. He said he's very grateful for his mom putting so much effort into developing his language skills and giving him the mental strength and ability to control his autism.

So all things are possible. So God bless him. Very excited for this family and this young boy.

BOLLING: Very sweet.

PERINO: Indeed.

GUILFOYLE: Really great. Eric.

BOLLING: OK. We talked a little bit about the New Year's Eve special.  The numbers came in today and were phenomenal. We should say -- first of all, thank you to K.G. We had a blast doing it together.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you, Eric.

BOLLING: Phil Keating down in Florida. Griff Jenkins. Kat Timpf. And Tyrus did a great job. Rick Leventhal was in the middle of it, as well. I think Pete Doocy was in there, as well. And Jesse and Kennedy did a great job with the first two hours. We took over and did three hours.

But the numbers are in. Total audience up 118 percent versus last year.


BOLLING: A record for Fox. Also in the demo, the 25 to 54 up 51 percent versus last year. Also another record.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Thank you to the producers, the control room, everybody there on the set. It was an A+ effort. All things are possible when you've got a great team like that.

RIVERA: Congratulations.

And happy New Year.

GUILFOYLE: Happy New Year.

RIVERA: Congratulations also to Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor Schwarzenegger, you know, the -- hosting now the new edition of "Celebrity Apprentice." Up against some tough competition last night, "The Bachelor."  But he's terrific.

"You're terminated." "Hasta la vista, baby." What? What?

GUILFOYLE: Are you going to be on again?

RIVERA: Will I be? If asked, if asked. Or asked to the inaugural. I may be, like, the lead act.

I went on vacation with my beautiful daughters, Erica and Isabella; Simone and Sol. We went to South Africa, Malala Game Preserve. We had a wonderful, wonderful time. We saw some terrific wildlife. We saw a lion munching on a -- there it is. Bolling wanted me to be the victim there.

GUILFOYLE: I see you survived.

RIVERA: Happy New Year.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, that's it for us. Happy New Year to everybody at home. Thanks for watching. And "Special Report" is up next.

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