New details emerge about Fort Hood gunman

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 3, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: This is a Fox News alert.

You're looking at the U.S. soldier identified as the gunmen in yesterday's deadly rampage at Fort Hood. Pictures emerged today of Army Specialist Ivan Lopez who killed three people, injured 16 others before turning the gun on himself. He was a married father, an Iraq war veteran who had been stationed at Fort Hood for just a few weeks.

Also today pictures have emerged of one of the three victims he killed, Sergeant Timothy Owens. Authorities just held a new update in Texas.

We're going to go to national security correspondent Jennifer Griffin at the Pentagon but we begin with Rick Leventhal live at Fort Hood with the very latest -- Rick.

RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: And, you know, one of the things we have to remember is this shooting just happened 24 hours ago, and we've already learned quite a bit about the gunman, including perhaps the motive from Lieutenant General Mark Milley, who is the commanding officer here at Fort Hood. He told us just a short time ago that he believes there's very strong evidence that the medical history of Ivan Lopez can explain why he opened fire yesterday afternoon. Listen.


LT. GEN. MARK MILLEY, FORT HOOD COMMANDER: It was mentioned yesterday there may have been a verbal altercation with another soldier or soldiers and there's a strong possibility that that in fact immediately preceded the shooting.


LEVENTHAL: So there may have been some kind of verbal altercation that may have sparked the shooting. But a very good question we should ask, Eric, is why was he carrying the gun in the first place because he wasn't authorized to do so on post?

BOLLING: Rick, during all of these news conferences that we've been listening to, has anyone outlined whether he was on any sort of medication, any antidepressants?

LEVENTHAL: Yes, they did say yesterday -- the general said yesterday that he was on some sort of antidepressant, and then we heard in more detail today that he was also prescribed Ambien for sleep disorders. This is a guy who was suffering from depression and anxiety, according to authorities and was apparently claiming to have PTSD but that had not been officially determined.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Hey, Rick. This is Bob.

The -- the situation around post-traumatic stress disorder seems a little confusing to me. He had been looked at for having that or in fact was being treated for that because he was seeing a psychiatrist, correct?

LEVENTHAL: Was seeing a psychiatrist, was complaining of mental issues, and apparently among those issues he believed he may have had post- traumatic stress disorder. He claimed he had suffered a traumatic brain injury in Iraq at the end of 2011. But the Army says there's absolutely no record of Lopez suffering any combat injury, no record of him having a head injury and no confirmation he had PTSD. They say it's a very lengthy process to determine if someone does have that condition and that they were looking at him, diagnosing him to see if he did, but they hadn't yet concluded their diagnose.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hey, Rick, it's Gutfeld.

This fellow was in the Army for nine years and he reached the level of E-4 specialist. That's unusual, right?


GUTFELD: Why is --

LEVENTHAL: Well, he's -- you would assume he had achieved a higher rank. But also, it may not be nine years. It may are more than that, may be 15 years.

We're told he joined the Puerto Rico national guard in 1999 and was down there for nine or 10 years before joining the Army and then serving in a couple of locations here in the States. He was at Fort Bliss before being transferred here.

And there was another interesting thing that came out of press conference. He wasn't transferred here in February for his mental condition. He was transferred here because he switched jobs in the Army. He was in fact a truck driver. He was brought here to continue doing that and while here he was getting mental health treatment.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: So, Rick, there seems to be a little confusion exactly about his mental condition. What we've heard so far is there's pre-existing condition prior to his involvement with the military, also, you know, during it, but right now there's been no substantiation of traumatic brain injury, post-traumatic stress disorder and from what I've read, it seems that his involvement in Iraq was post-war, involving removal of equipment, things like that of that nature, was not combat-oriented.

LEVENTHAL: Right. There was the last four months of the war, the drawdown, the end of 2011. So there wasn't the same kind of combat that many soldiers have seen and marines and airmen have seen in the year since 2003.

One other note, though, Kimberly that may give some insight into his mental condition, we heard from friends in his hometown of Puerto Rico that his mother had died in November and that his grandfather had died just a few weeks before that, and apparently he was very shaken by that. Whether that contributed to his actions here yesterday though remains to be seen.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Rick, it's Dana. I'm curious, aside from the gunman and murderer, what about the victims. I understand the names have been slow to come forward. Have you heard anything more? Did we learn anything more about them?

LEVENTHAL: Well, we know they were all service members. They were all in the Army. Three were killed.

There were 16 others who suffered a variety of injuries. Some were cut by flying -- broken glass. At least one person was injured jumping a fence to get away from the scene.

Everyone -- a number of people were shot. They all were shot a single time, but some of those wounds were pretty dramatic. One has a spinal injury. Another one had an abdominal injury involving intestinal reconstruction.

There are three people at last report still in critical condition, Dana, but according to hospital, they are all expected to survive. We have three victims, three dead, 16 wounded and then, of course, the gunman as well is dead.

GUTFELD: Hey, Rick, I want to ask you about security, the security. Has it changed since 2009 to have more armed personnel there? Did this have an impact on perhaps why he was stopped in a parking lot?

LEVENTHAL: I don't know if they added more military police or more defense department police officers. We are told that they added more long guns to the arsenal of the officers and MPs who work on bases across the country.

They can't search everyone, Greg, that comes on the base here. There's 80,000 people who work at Fort Hood on post, and there are 30,000 to 40,000 family members who have access. So it's just impossible to do those kind of searches.

But they were on scene quickly. They do train now since 2009 in active shooter scenarios, and according to the general here, the responding officers performed admirably in getting to the scene and then tracking this guy down and stopping him before he could potentially shoot even more people.

BOLLING: Hey, Rick, we noted he was a father and a husband. Can you give us a little detail about what his family life was like? Do we know? Was there trouble in the marriage? Do we have any of those details?

LEVENTHAL: That's a good question. Someone else raised that at the news conference this afternoon, and the general couldn't go into any more detail on that. He was married. His wife also from Puerto Rico.

He may have two children in Puerto Rico in addition to a couple of kids here. It's unclear if he had three or four children but he was a father and he was a husband, and we're told that the wife was at their home off base. And after hearing about the shooting was outside with other relatives of soldiers when she learned that it was her husband who believed she was responsible for the shooting. That's when authorities came and picked her up and questioned her.

BECKEL: Rick, the base commander suggested that the verbal confrontation contributed to his actions. I mean, there's verbal confrontations on the military base that size every day by lots of people. I mean, that seems to me to be a pretty weak read to put out there.

LEVENTHAL: Well, but again, the general said that this is a man with an unstable psychiatric condition so that he believe he was already on shaky ground, and, again, he's carrying a weapon that he's not authorized to carry so why did he have that gun?

Perhaps he was looking for an altercation. Previous he had a previous altercation with these people. We don't know. Obviously, that's going to be part of this investigation.

The Army and its team and the FBI as well looking at everyone who had contact with Specialist Ivan Lopez to find out what he may have said, what he may have done, and they will put that together, but it's only been 24 hours. It's going to take some time.

BOLLING: All right. We're going to leave it right there, Rick Leventhal at Fort Hood -- thank you very much.

Let's go now to national security correspondent Jennifer Griffin at the Pentagon.

Jennifer, the Department of Defense, any response? What are they saying?

JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think what's most interesting, Eric, and what they will be looking into is part of the fiscal year 2013 Defense Authorization Act, essentially the Pentagon budget, added a stipulation that mental health workers had to alert commanders if they thought that an individual might take their own life or caused a danger to others.

And this was all part of this post-2009 Fort Hood shooting, also after the Navy Yard shooting just last year. This was an effort to try and find this insider threat and to -- and try and get them before they go on a rampage. There will be big questions about the mental health worker who was seeing Specialist Lopez if this worker was already diagnosing him with depression and giving him anti-depressants and Ambien, as we're told.

Was there anything in those -- in those meetings that he had with the mental health specialist that suggested that he might have suicidal tendencies or homicidal tendencies because if so, that mental health worker was required to alert the base commander -- Eric.


BECKEL: You know, Jennifer, I -- the military has not been strongly behind psychiatric evaluations and other things for several years. They were saying -- as a matter of fact, they fought the issue of post-traumatic stress disorder for a long time, if you remember.

Now all of a sudden, we've got several cases of this. We don't know whether it's post-traumatic stress disorder, but we know we have a lot of people with mental problems in the military and the yet their budget for it, leaving aside whether workers have to identify their patients, they still have too many people with too many problems and not enough resources to deal with them.

GRIFFIN: Well, here's the thing, Bob. Actually back in around the 2009 time frame, the military and the Army in particular really made an about face in terms of post-traumatic stress and mental illness and trying to de-stigmatize that.

They put a lot of efforts into that, and what you're seeing is almost at times an overcompensation for that. So I would argue that you're right. They don't have enough money for will mental health workers, and you have 2.6 million Americans now who have served overseas in the wars in the last 13 years who are coming back with recent studies show nearly half of them are showing signs of post-traumatic stress.

Now, it's really important to point out this Specialist Lopez, he was not in combat. He was in the most peaceful time in Iraq. The last four months he was a truck driver. He was not fired at.

So there's no indication that he was involved in combat, but clearly he was somebody suffering from depression, anxiety. The military has tried to de-stigmatize that in the process.

They are really having -- they are weighing how do they de-stigmatize it, but also alert authorities if they think someone poses a threat.

PERINO: Jennifer, that was actually going to be my question because I'm actually alarmed by some of the conversations that I've seen -- that we've seen since the shooting because there's been so much -- so many efforts done, not just by our government, but by a lot of private sector organizations. We should in no way allow, and I wonder what the Defense Department thinks about this, no way allow people to assume that somebody that has PTS is going to commit a homicide.

I am so disturbed that --

GRIFFIN: Absolutely.

PERINO: -- better not let that happen in America and I'm sure the Defense Department agrees.

GRIFFIN: Absolutely. That's why it's been so difficult in the last 24 hours because of the reports that he was seeking treatment for post- traumatic stress.

He was not diagnosed with post-traumatic stress, and if you look at his military record it's really hard to see how he would have actually obtained that diagnosis. So it's very important, Dana, and I think the point that you're trying to get at is that those service members who are being treated for post-traumatic stress, they are not necessarily violent, and this is not an indication. So, a lot of this is getting conflated right now and there are people in the Army that are very concerned about the conflation of these two things.

GUILFOYLE: Jennifer, the way you've laid it out. It seems to me that kind of the answer to the questions that we're seeking about what might have trigger this may very well be a pre-existing condition that he had, that he, you know, rightfully went to seek some kind of psychiatric intervention, which we do want to encourage people to do. You don't want to stigmatize and then people who really need it aren't getting it, but perhaps there was also some combination of psychotropic drugs, because we've mentioned Ambien before, that he was suffering from anti-depression - - from depression, maybe taking the anti-depressants as well.

There could be some kind of, you know, a chemical reaction, perhaps overmedicating, you don't know. That's why I think they also need to focus some of the research since his military record doesn't substantiate a PTSD diagnosis as far as we know right now.

GRIFFIN: Exactly, Kimberly. And, in fact, what's really the biggest issue right now for many of the returning veterans is this cocktail of pharmaceuticals and drugs that are being prescribed to them for depression and sleep disorder and anxiety, and that cocktail of drugs, we have no idea what effect that is having on people, and we're seeing very violent outbursts as a result of those drugs, and more studies need to be done on the interactions of these drugs.

We also know from looking at his Facebook page, because we've been able to find his Facebook page, is that he -- you know, he has an interesting psychological profile. He seems to have been a heavy metal enthusiast. He was a -- he called himself "Ivan Slipknot," Slipknot being a reference to a heavy metal band that he had some very disturbing images from that band on his Facebook page. So, it's really unclear what other drugs he may have been taking.

GUTFELD: Just to -- I also listen to Slipknot, so let's not --

BECKEL: Well, that explains it then.


GRIFFIN: I don't want to stigmatize Slipknot either, by the way.

GUTFELD: I mean, you get to the point where it's -- it's about a person's behavior independent of their employment. This is not linked to combat. It is somebody who has a disorder. I think that's probably fine.

Well, I have questions about the initial reporting. Was this pure coincidence that this arose after the rumor of a jihad, or was it just -- did they hear rumors that something was going to happen? Was this connected? Was that purely coincidence?

And the second part is when this happens, they always talk about a second shooter, and there almost never is. Is that assumption made out of caution so that you assume that there's somebody else out there?

GRIFFIN: Absolutely. I think the assumption is made so that they keep people in lockdown mode, shelter in place, and they want to be sure that there isn't a second shooter, but as you said, Greg, we've seen with the navy yard and with other incidents that there hasn't been a second shooter when in fact in the initial hours, it appears that they would.

And in terms of that report that had gone out, Jana Winter's report about the alert for on the lookout for a jihadist wanting to carry out a Fort Hood-style attack, absolutely no relationship and pure coincidence and somewhat bizarre, but -- but absolutely no indication of any -- any connection to that.

BOLLING: Jen, a quick thought from Dana.

PERINO: Just a last quick question. Because people are comparing this to the previous massacre that happened at Fort Hood, I just wonder if the Defense Department is planning to call this the same, workplace violence, or will they have a different designation for this?

GRIFFIN: That's a good question. I think it's a little early to say. This incident appears to be somewhat different than the original Fort Hood shooter in 2009 because obviously we saw that Nidal Hasan had jihadist ties and there's no evidence of that right now, according to the Army generals who've been briefing down at Fort Hood.

BOLLING: All right. OK, I've got to wrap it there, Jen. But thank you so much.

Next, should soldiers have a right to bear arms on military bases? A survivor of the First Hood shooting thinks so. You'll hear from him and we'll debate it, coming up.


GUTFELD: So, after a shooting, what often follows is more shooting, mostly from the mouths of opinion-makers pre-set in their assumptions. The right instinct, sorrow. But others will soapbox their sentiments for this is always about proving the other side wrong.

But we could talk about this without politics. All you've got to do is ask what are the facts?

First, this attack says little about our servicemen. Crime rates are way lower among military than the rest of us. They need support. They don't need pity.

Second, a killer murdered three people and then himself. What prompted his own death? Another gun. Apparently, the killer was in a parking lot armed when an officer pulled out a weapon. That made his decision for him.

Now, we can discuss the origins of the attack and the attacker, but the end is clear. The length of an attack is usually dictated by the time it takes for another gun to show up. You can figure this out.

On a military base where soldiers are often separated from their weapons, it was an officer who stopped this, not a soldier. Thank goodness for her. It could have been worse. Maybe it could have been better if there were more of her around.

After all, our military should be safer on an American base than I am here at FOX News. They deserve that and more.

Want to just throw to this sound on tape. This was Fort Hood survivor by the name of Sergeant Alonzo Lunsford about weapons not being in the hands of soldiers while they are at Fort Hood.


SGT. ALONZO LUNSFORD, 2009 FT HOOD SHOOTING SURVIVOR: This has happened again, and after our shooting the first thing that was said, well, what are we going to do to stop this from happening again? And every one of the powers at be from the military and also our government came up with all these grandiose ideas, this is what we're going to do to fix the problem so it doesn't happen.

We are trained to be able to operate these weapons and make good decisions with the weapons, and as I stated before, guns don't kill people. People kill people. But if you are allowed to carry the weapons on the base, that's a deterrent.


GUTFELD: Kimberly, I'm trying to figure out why this law is there, because if disarmament increases the risk making a perpetrator less likely to be stopped, is it because they are trying to lower the risk for suicide? I don't know what -- I don't know if that's worth it if they are vulnerable to this.

GUILFOYLE: No, you make a great point, and when you see this situation, what I think about if other people were allowed to carry a weapon, perhaps there would be -- it would operate as a deterrent, there would be less casualties that we see in a situation like this where more of those officers are around like the female.

I don't understand quite the logic. I would like to think if you step on an American military base, are you in one of the safest places of the world.


GUILFOYLE: To me, that's a reassuring thought.

What's disturbing is the same place getting hit, coincidence or not. It is disturbing.

So, whatever they tried to put in the aftermath of that shooting by Major Nidal Hasan didn't work here.

GUTFELD: Yes. Bob, if it's about protecting soldiers from themselves, couldn't that logic be extended to the battlefield because you can kill yourself there?

BECKEL: Yes, you could. Let's -- let's look at some other facts. The suicide rate here is higher, twice the national average, correct?

GUTFELD: No, it's reverse. The national average is twice that at Fort Hood.

BECKEL: Twice that at Fort Hood?


BECKEL: And you don't have any incidents where there's higher degrees of mental health, forget post-traumatic stress disorder, is that right? I mean, there are no indications --

GUTFELD: They have lower crime rates, far lower than the general population.

BECKEL: I mean, if you take that into account and there's not a universe of people there that are potentially dangerous because of guns -- I mean, you give them guns to fight. I don't see any problem keeping guns.

BOLLING: Well, here's what we learned. By the way, I think the suicide issue, that's the number one reason, a couple of generals today on FOX News were citing. But here's what ends up happening.

If you -- the gun-free zone becomes the easy targets --



GUILFOYLE: Just like school.

BOLLING: Three areas. Think about this in the last couple of years, military bases, Navy yard, Fort Hood a couple of times.



BOLLING: Newton, Connecticut, gun-free zone. The movie theater in Aurora, gun-free movie theater, if you remember that. Remember the big sign posted no guns?


BOLLING: They become easy targets for whackos. That's what's going on. It's time to take those gun-free zones signs down.

BECKEL: Are you suggesting these things wouldn't happen if there are no gun-free zones?

BOLLING: I am. I am suggesting it would happen with far less frequency.

GUTFELD: Dana, if you look at our building and I've said this many times, media, well-paid talking heads are more protected than our military. That seems to me idiotic.

PERINO: And our students --


PERINO: -- children around America.

And I also think that in addition to the question about whether guns should be on base that -- that the root cause of the mental health problem in the country is still one that a year later, everybody says we're going to talk about it. Talk about it for two weeks and nobody actually ever puts forward some policy solutions.

Very disturbingly in "The Wall Street Journal" on Saturday, there's an editorial about the mental health division at the Health and Human Services Department and how it just wastes a ton of money that could have helped people like the Adam Lanzas of the world or maybe this individual that ends up killing many more people, and I think that if Congress could get ahold of that budget and force some restructuring, we could actually get that money spent on things rather than this thing.

Dance your way to wellness and recovery is one of the programs that they held last week.

GUTFELD: That sound like fun though.

PERINO: Really? You would like that?

GUTFELD: Well --

PERINO: Dance your way to wellness and recovery.

GUTFELD: I love to dance.

PERINO: Yes --

GUTFELD: No, but it is interesting. Deployment does not raise risk, it doesn't.


GUTFELD: It doesn't.

And rates of crime are lower among the military personnel, and civilians.

PERINO: Right.

It's critical that we don't try to tag people that have PTS that are suffering from that, that we don't stigmatize them. More than anything, they need good jobs --


PERINO: -- when they come out of military, and they are great employees.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

All right. Ahead on "The Five," one of the Koch brothers fires back at angry Democrats like Harry Reid who have been trying to paint them as un- American.

And later, another huge shake-up is coming to late-night detail. We'll fill you in on all the details when "The Five" returns.


GUTFELD: That's music.

GUILFOYLE: We're moving, we're swaying.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Democrats should be obsessing about issues like jobs and the economy, but instead they are focusing all of their time these days on two billionaire businessmen.


SEN. HARRY REID (D), NEVADA: The Koch brothers are willing to do anything, even exploit Americans suffering from cancer.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Republicans are doing the bidding of the Koch brothers, the wealthy and huge corporations.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: The Koch brothers spent I believe $248 million of their own money in the last election cycle. They are in fact a political party to themselves.

REID: It's time that the American people spoke out against this terrible dishonesty of these two brothers who are about as un-American as anyone that I can imagine.



Well, one of the Koch brothers has had enough. You can imagine, right?

So, in an op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal," Charles Koch writes, quote, "I have devoted most of my life to understanding the principles that enable people to improve their lives. It is those principles, the principles of a free society, that shaped my life, my family, our company and America itself."

Since when has it become a crime, a sin to spend your own money in this country to support a candidate or express the beliefs, you know, of a candidate basically that supports what you believe in, Dana? Why is this making a devil and a demon coming about here?

PERINO: I'm just wondering -- Bob, are you humming to yourself?

BECKEL: No, I'm doing a violin about the Koch brothers and their Americanism. I like that.

PERINO: OK, Open Secrets, the Center for Responsible Politics, the Koch Brothers donations of federal candidates, parties and political action committees total $3.2 million from 1989 to 2012, for George Soros, $4.5 million. Individual donations of 527 campaigns, George Soros, $35.8, to the Koch brothers $3.9 million.

The interesting thing is I think that the Democrats -- what they are reacting to is that even thought the Koch brothers spend less, they are billionaires, they spend less than Democratic-leaning billionaires do, they are actually more effective. That's why I guess they are being held up and targeted. It is almost McCarthyistic, the types of things you hear from the Senate floor about two Americans who are expressing the First Amendment rights.

GUILFOYLE: It's awful. Not playing for their team.

PERINO: Nobody says that about George Soros. They say we don't like his tactics. No one says he's -- well, he is un-American. That he's not allowed to do it.

BECKEL: Well, we tell you, where we're going with this obviously for the preparation for the show, obsession, an attack on two patriotic Americans, well-written, Porter. The idea here that these guys are somehow benign, they do a lot for charity, I'll give them, that a lot of things. But it's not that much money. They spent $248 million because they support one thing called Americans for Prosperity. They say they're not involved with the Tea Party, that's the single biggest contributor to the parties.

GUILFOYLE: So, who cares? What matters -- what difference does it make?

BECKEL: Why don't they say it? Instead of hiding behind all these right wing groups they put together --

BOLLING: You know what? You're right. They shouldn't hide behind Americans for Prosperity. Here's what they should hide behind -- the 63,000 Americans that they employ, or the 143,000 additional jobs that surround the 60,000 that they employ directly, or the $12 billion in compensation annually that they're handing out to --

BECKEL: Does that give them the right to subvert the political process?

GUILFOYLE: They're not.

BOLLING: No, they're not subverting.

BECKEL: Yes, they are, too.

BOLLING: They're not breaking one single law.


BOLLING: By the way, OK --

BECKEL: Who writes these laws?

BOLLING: Hillary Clinton is going to one in 2016. How much do you think she's going to raise?

BECKEL: You're asking me.

BOLLING: Let's take a guess.

BECKEL: I'd say $1 billion.

BOLLING: How much?

BECKEL: A billion.

BOLLING: You want to go higher?

BECKEL: Well, maybe -- pocket change for the Koch brothers. The Koch brothers, or whatever they are called, Koch --

BOLLING: Tell me where is that money coming from?

BECKEL: They're going to spend five times more money --

BOLLING: Where is Hillary's money coming from? Where is it coming from?


BECKEL: A lot of small contributors unlike the Koch brothers.


GUTFELD: Let me just -- I agree with Bob on this. The Koch brothers are evil. They pour millions -- hundreds of millions of dollars into hospitals that treat sick people. The government can take care of that. They pour millions into the arts.

PERINO: Ballet.

GUTFELD: Idiotic and ballet.

Only leftists should be doing that. They create work by sewing the seeds of commerce instead of racial division. That's terrible, because we need more division in this country.

If you're liberal and you're rich, you're Bruce Wayne. If you're conservative and rich, you're Montgomery Burns. The government hates the Koch brothers because they make you less reliant on government. No wonder Reid hates them because he makes Reid obsolete.

The Kochs are Harry Potter. And Reid --


BECKEL: Oh, come on! The Koch brothers are one of the biggest polluters in this country.

GUILFOYLE: No! No, no, no. You don't have any evidence.

BECKEL: They pollute this country --

GUILFOYLE: You don't have any evidence to substantiate that. You can't say things like that.

GUTFELD: Only liberals can be rich and influential.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, (INAUDIBLE).

Still to come on a peaceful episode of "The Five": a Senate candidate takes a swipe at the candidate pointing out that she doesn't have a college degree but will voters care? Should they? Next.


BECKEL: Well, my pal Bill Gates didn't graduate from college, neither did Steve Jobs. Do you really need a higher education to be a success? I have a 1.001 on a football scholarship and look at me now, I'm at "The Five."

According to a Senate candidate in Georgia, you do. Here's David Perdue knocking one of his opponents, Karen Handel, for not getting a college degree. Punk.


DAVID PERDUE (R-GA), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: There's a high school graduate in this race, OK? I'm sorry, these issues are so much broader, so complex, there's only one candidate in this race that's ever lived outside the United States. How can you bring value to a debate about the economy unless you have any understanding about where in the process and what it takes to compete in the global economy?


BECKEL: Handel's campaign has fired back saying, "It is a disappointment that David would demean someone who by no fault of their own moved out of an abusive home at age 17 and with her own hard work and determination, is the embodiment of the American dream."

I'll tell you, it never ceases to amaze me. I've done over 100 campaigns. It's always somebody says something stupid. And you're right. Men generally about women, what is this guy thinking?

First of all, 85 percent of the state of Georgia do not have more than a high school diploma and she's got mitigating circumstances. She came from an abusive family. What is this guy talking about?

PERINO: It's absurd. He has --

BECKEL: What are you laughing at --

BOLLING: I don't know where did you come up with that stat?


BECKEL: No, I read it. In fact --

GUILFOYLE: The Beckel institute.

BECKEL: "The Journal Constitution."

PERINO: That sounds probably right to me.

You know, Karl Rove didn't graduate from college, ran two successful political presidential campaigns. There's so many examples of people who didn't graduate from college. Also, let's just take it another step. Apparently, this guy is well-liked by some people in the state, but if you are going -- one of the reasons you have a primary is to figure out who is going to be your best candidate to run against an opponent.

This is a Republican primary we're talking about. I think that the voters in Georgia who are going to vote in the Republican primary have their answer, not him.

GUTFELD: Higher education only teaches you how to get high. I did four years of Berkeley. I have no memory of it other than throwing up --


GUTFELD: -- in the handcuffs.

And by the way, and half the stuff you learn there from the professors is liberal crap that doesn't work in real life.

GUILFOYLE: You shouldn't have gone there.

GUTFELD: High school is where you actually learn how to live. This woman is actually overqualified by not going to college.

BOLLING: There you go.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, because she wasn't polluted by some of these liberal universities, and that's why you see the system applying to all of them, Berkeley, pass. No way.

BECKEL: Let me just -- this is my block. Let me suggest to my friend Eric here, according to this research here from the Census statistics, that 84.4 percent of high school diplomas in Georgia, 72.4 percent of Georgians are without college degrees. Eh!

BOLLING: OK, all right.

Let me say it's one of those stats that you have made up in the past.

BECKEL: Oh, it's because I read my research, unlike you obviously.

BOLLING: Kimberly had something very important. Some of the most successful business founders on the planet in America never -- Bill Gates started Microsoft in his garage. Steve Jobs also -- I'm not sure -- I don't know if he went to college, he also started very, very young. College degree by no means qualifies you for being successful in the economy and/or politics.

PERINO: The guy from PayPal offering people a scholarship if they don't go to college and work on a business.

GUTFELD: I can't remember his name.

You know who else didn't go to college? Charles Manson.

BECKEL: There you go.

PERINO: That wasn't in the packet.


BECKEL: So, we don't step on you guys' segment here, coming up, part two of Dana and Greg's excellent adventure at the Bush Center in Dallas. They will settle once and for all who is taller than the other.

And later, a huge announcement that will rock the late night landscape. So, stay tuned for that.

GUILFOYLE: Look at this. How charming.


PERINO: Yesterday we had a great time showing you the tour that I gave Greg of the Bush Library last week in Dallas, and tonight we want to show you what happened after that tour.

I got a chance to interview Greg about his new book, "Not Cool," and some "Five" fans got a chance to ask us their burning questions.


PERINO: We're really honored to be here. We get along so well. I call him the brother I never wanted.

GUTFELD: You do realize that I am taller than her.

PERINO: You want to show them for once and all it's true?

All right.

GUTFELD: There you go.

PERINO: I'm going to be fair.


PERINO: I'm being fair. Hold on.

Put it back, back to back. I'm still smarter.


PERINO: New book that just came out last week. It's called "Not Cool." What were you trying to get across?

GUTFELD: Cool is a value-neutral term. It's neither good nor bad and that's why to me, it's bad, because now you can tell somebody to do a bad thing because it's cool, whether it's experimenting in bizarre drugs or it's engaging in any kind of risky behavior because, you know, don't worry about it being good or bad. It's cool.

PERINO: In your opinion is "The Five" cool or not cool?

GUTFELD: I refuse to use those words.


GUTFELD: It's good or bad, and -- and "The Five" is good, and the reason why "The Five" is good is because, again, it's real. The chemistry is real. It's unpredictable, because we don't care. We're not interested in impressing anybody.

PERINO: We don't even talk to one another before 4 p.m.

GUTFELD: No. We can't stand each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you guys do during the commercial breaks that you come back laughing at?

PERINO: This is an example. We'll finish a heated argument. Let's say it's about global warming. And we'll finish, and then Bob will start laughing.

"Bob, did you really believe anything that you were just saying?" And he just gets that Cheshire cat grin, and he laughs. And there's a thing that you do every day in the commercial breaks between the "C" and the "D" block.

GUTFELD: I sing about my food. About 5:35 on the dog, I'm thinking...

(singing): What am I going to eat? Chinese food.

(speaking): Like I don't even know I'm doing it.

PERINO: To be here at the Bush Center meant a lot to me. I love this library, and I was really glad to be able to show it to Greg today. The only way it could get better is if Jasper were lying here and Dirks Bentley came in and played a set.


PERINO: Leave it to Kimberly to feel bad for my husband. He didn't get a mention. Sorry, Peter.

Let me just show you a couple of the fans that I talked to outside the group.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really like the camaraderie, and I like that everybody on "The Five" is really respectful of each other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I enjoy all of them.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can handle Bob Beckel, because he's a teddy bear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bob is the best sport.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've listened to the news all day. I need to know what is Kimberly, Andrea, Bob, Eric, Dana, what does Greg think? Because their thoughts are important to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're real. They're articulate. And they like to argue and have fun and bring the news at the same time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We record it every day. We watch it every day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll tell you one thing. I do set my DVR every day on "The Five."


PERINO: So I loved it, and you had a comment about our fans that you wanted to mention from your -- that you've learned on your book tour.

GUTFELD: Well, there's no -- there are no jerks.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: There are no jerks. "The Five" -- "The Five" fan is a real person. And I wouldn't be anywhere without those fans. I mean, they come to buy a book, but they're there because of "The Five."

BOLLING: Well, there's that one guy in Chicago.


GUILFOYLE: How about all the people that we get to meet right outside whether it's like snowing, raining, whatever terrible weather is out there.

PERINO: That's incredible.

GUILFOYLE: What are you doing?

PERINO: Kimberly.

BOLLING: Maybe you have stalkers.

PERINO: But they're sweet.

Bob, they -- do you think you're a teddy bear?

BECKEL: No, not really, but I think that -- listen, I get so much negative mail, but it's always bracketed with nice things by saying -- it's always "You're my favorite liberal" or, you know, whatever.

But you know the thing about these people is -- that I find amazing is how loyal viewers they are. They'll come up to me and say, "You remember that episode when you and Eric were arguing about...?" I can't remember yesterday's episode, but it is amazing. They watch and they pay attention. And the interesting thing they said: they get the news, and they get other things, and I think that's important.

PERINO: Last thought, Eric?

BOLLING: Some very, very loyal fans across the board, on Twitter, on Facebook, in life, everywhere.


BOLLING: Can you stop telling your fans to meet us out there? It's like she's trying -- to go across the breezeway, and like, "Kimberly, Kimberly, can we take your picture?"

GUILFOYLE: And what do I do? I always stop and take the picture.

GUTFELD: It's really because it's just Lou Dobbs who's asking.

GUILFOYLE: He wears different disguises, though.

BOLLING: And Hemmer.

GUTFELD: And Hemmer, yes.

PERINO: We want to thank the Bush Center for having us. They were great hosts, and we were honored to be there and glad we got to show the library to all of you.

GUTFELD: Yes. Sorry about the sofa.

PERINO: Oh, right. All right. If you want to catch the entire Q&A with Greg it's posted at, and it will be on C-SPAN this Saturday.

"One More Thing" coming up next.


BOLLING: All righty then. It's time for "One More Thing." Dana is first.

PERINO: OK. Big news. Right before we started "The Five," David Letterman, star of "The Late Show," has announced that, sometime within the next year or so he is going to retire. And he's had an amazing career at CBS, and this comes right after Jay Leno retired, so it's like a whole new world of late-night comedy. That's why you should DVR "Red Eye" every night at 3 a.m.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. Camera opportunity.

OK. So speaking of late night and awesomeness -- and I'm not talking about Friday night. I'm talking about...

BECKEL: You're talking about our date last night. I'm sorry, go ahead.

GUILFOYLE: I'd be in, like, an incubator tent, getting like 20 IV's for anti-infection things. OK.

Instead, we can watch Bill Clinton on Jimmy Kimmel. He was very funny and also a little curious, because he was talking about aliens and he wouldn't be surprised if we were invaded by them.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: More than 20 planets have been identified outside our solar system that seem to be far enough away from their suns and dense enough that they might be able to support some form of life, so it makes it increasingly less likely that we're alone.

If we were visited someday I wouldn't be surprised.


BOLLING: All right.

GUILFOYLE: He's still so charming, and I love Jimmy Kimmel.

BOLLING: I like him, too.

GUILFOYLE: Take lessons.

BOLLING: OK. Staying on late night, Jimmy Fallon last night had a very familiar guest. Love her, love her, Governor Palin. Let's take a listen.


JIMMY FALLON, HOST, NBC'S "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": Hello, Ms. Palin, it's me, Vladimir.

SARAH PALIN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ALASKA: What are you doing calling me?

FALLON: Well, I heard that, back in 2008, you predicted that I would invade Ukraine. Is this true?

PALIN: You betcha, Vlad.

FALLON: You betcha, Vlad. I once invaded country called "Youbetchavlad."


BOLLING: Good stuff, good stuff. By the way, Governor Palin will join Sean Hannity tonight in the 10 p.m. hour. Bob, you're up.

BECKEL: Take a look at the five justices of the Supreme Court who have single-handedly now destroyed the campaign finance system. Any restraints are now gone.

It's the fifth time since "Give the Rich People Everything They Want" Chief Justice Roberts has decided to lift all campaign-finance restrictions, that anybody buy it. And I'll tell you who should be really happy tonight: the Koch brothers.

PERINO: Please let us do this topic tomorrow. Please!

GUILFOYLE: And yes, by the way, Robert, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ObamaCare. You're not being grateful.

GUTFELD: Yes. Coke adds life. The government takes it away.

BECKEL: I hear what you're saying.

GUTFELD: I'm leaving. Tomorrow, I'm getting on a bus. I'm going to Grand Rapids, Michigan. I'm going to be there for a bit, doing Shuler and Grand Rapids, Portage; then Notre Dame and Indiana; Cincinnati, Ohio; Kentucky; Carmel, Indiana; Columbus, Ohio.

PERINO: Brentwood.

GUTFELD: And at Brentwood on Sunday, in Brentwood, Tennessee. Why don't you just go to And you can see my whole...

BECKEL: Are there windows on that bus?

GUTFELD: There are.

BECKEL: Is there a bathroom on that bus?

GUTFELD: There's a shower. There's -- it's six bunks, in case I find any groupies. They're usually in their 60s, the way I like them, and...

BECKEL: It's just you and the driver?

GUILFOYLE: Lots of luck.

GUTFELD: No, my wife comes along.

PERINO: Are dogs allowed on that bus?


PERINO: That's interesting.

BOLLING: There is that...


BOLLING: Don't you want to drive it?

GUTFELD: I'm not allowed to drive.

PERINO: He doesn't have a driver's license.

GUTFELD: I didn't -- I didn't renew my driver's license.

BOLLING: Come on! I want to drive that bus. Can I drive the bus?

GUTFELD: Yes. That would be fun. Florida.


Got to leave it right there. Don't forget: set your DVR and never miss an episode of "The Five." We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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