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Media pushing impeachment?

Some liberals back it even if Trump remains.

This is a rush transcript from "Media Buzz," April 28, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST: On the Buzz Meter this Sunday, media liberals changed their tune on impeachment, saying even though it will fail it is still worth doing as a way of punishing President Trump with a scarlet letter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: You can impeach with just the majority of the House. You can indict this guy for history.

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC ANALYST: They have to make sure that they continue to prosecute the case against Trump all the way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Yeah.

ALTER: The best way to do that is with impeachment.

ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is (INAUDIBLE). This is not law. This is not morality. This is a man they don't like and never accepted as the president. SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Now Democrats are deflated their downtrodden and they are hitting levels of delusion with reckless fantasies about impeachment. JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Now the media wants them to impeach because they feel like they have to justify the hoax that they perpetrated for two years. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KURTZ: Are some in the press now using the Mueller report to campaign for impeachment? Is the president's vow to defy House subpoenas being covered as a constitutional crisis or just more partisan warfare?

Trump unloads on Morning Joe Scarborough, on CNN's Chris Cuomo, on New York Times' columnist Paul Krugman. Are these another attacks going too far? Anthony Scaramucci, the former White House communications chief, joins our discussion.

Joe Biden finally jumps into the 2020 race after weeks of skeptical coverage and largely negative commentary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: One thing Donald Trump is right about when he attacks Joe Biden, he has never really shown the quality of candidate that we expected him to be.

EDDIE GLAUDE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Biden will lose a little luster. I think he has a difficult time. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do think the goodness that he brings to the table, the experience, the network of supporters that he has makes him formidable this time around.

MIKE HUCKABEE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Joe Biden's 2020 rollout is looking kind of like the crash of the Hindenburg, and he hasn't even officially announced yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Have the pundits already soured on the former VP and how much is the hurt by the media focus on Anita Hill? Plus, C-Span founder Brian Lamb stepping down after 40 years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN LAMB, FOUNDER, C-SPAN: We wanted to have television be the place of C-Span network where somebody can call up and tell us off. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: And he has got some thoughts on political lying and today's media culture. I'm Howard Kurtz and this is "Media Buzz."

President Trump declared this week there are no grounds for impeachment, not while the economy is doing so well. He told reporters he would not comply with a flurry of demands from House Democrats for documents and testimony by his current and former aides. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The subpoena is ridiculous. We are fighting all the subpoenas. Look, these are like impartial people. The Democrats are trying to end 2020. JOHN HEILEMANN, MSNBC NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: By defying the subpoenas, by provoking this constitutional clash, by doing the things he's doing, he is making it impossible for Democrats not to impeach him. JASON RILEY, EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: This not about more transparency or a search for the truth. This is about keeping this political narrative alive for the 2020 campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KURTZ: Joining us now to analyze the coverage: Mollie Hemingway, senior editor at The Federalist, a Fox News contributor, and now a senior journalism fellow at Hillsdale College; Sara Fischer, media reporter for Axios; and Jessica Tarlov, a Fox News contributor.

Mollie, when the liberal commentators were pushing for impeachment as a way of removing President Trump from office, at least you can understand their goal. Now it seems to be seems to be, well, we can't kick him out of office this way, but we have a moral duty to punish him. MOLLIE HEMINGWAY, SENIOR EDITOR AT THE FEDERALIST, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR, SENIOR JOURNALISM FELLOW AT HILLSDALE COLLEGE: Well, I mean, the real problem here actually is that the media have no credibility to talk about this issue at all. They spent the last couple of years falling into this Russia conspiracy theory. There are thousands of stories. The liberal commentary also participated in this delusional thinking.

And then it came out that the Mueller report ended with not a single indictment for obstruction, not a single indictment for collusion, and they're continuing with this narrative. So, yes, it doesn't make sense because there's no actual -- there will be no conviction in the Senate, but also it is just part of a bigger problem which is a lack of credibility in the media and the liberal commentary.

KURTZ: Jessica, Nancy Pelosi does not want impeachment. Most of the 2020 candidates do not want impeachment at this point. Knowing that, it would sort of liberate (ph) the Democrats agenda and in the end they will not convict Donald Trump. What does this tell us about the liberal pundits and how some of them just seem to despise Trump?

JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think that we've known for a long time that there are some members of the media and many Americans as well do despise Trump. You should always try to have -- if you are in the media, your coverage reflect the truth and facts. We saw that emphasized last night at the White House correspondents' dinner, for instance.

But the Mueller report actually gave people who believe that there was obstruction of justice a lot to work with. Bob Mueller was explicit that he wasn't going to be laying out, he wasn't making a decision, and there were 10 things that he was looking at that he thought amounted potentially to obstruction of justice. It was Bill Barr that made that decision.

We've heard from a number of legal commentators including our own Judge Andrew Napolitano who think that there is a case for obstruction of justice there. So while Nancy Pelosi wants to make sure that we fair well electorally in 2020, you can see actually even more of a pathway toward impeachment then you could before we got the Mueller report. KURTZ: For clarification, as you know, Bill Barr made the decision not to pursue obstruction because Mueller decided not to make a recommendation either way. So The New York Times' op-ed page has been full of these arguments. Here's one example from columnist Charles Blow. "There's no such thing as a failed impeachment. Once a president is impeached, he is forever marked." I call this just giving him the scarlet "I".

SARA FISCHER, MEDIA REPORTER, AXIOS: I think that's kind of what you're seeing with the attempt here. I mean, look, at the end of the day, the members of Congress want to get more facts and they are not doing these necessarily to -- maybe it is the scarlet letter but they have to protect their 2020 chances as well.

The media does not have 2020 chances to protect. They just have to tell the truth. And so when you see a plethora of opinion columns that are kind of coming out this way, you just want to make sure that quite frankly you're being balanced on the other side as well.

KURTZ: Oh, we say tell the truth. Columnists are entitled to give their opinion. You're right that no one in the press is running for office but maybe they want a certain outcome in 2020. FISCHER: That's right. They are entitled to give their opinion but at The New York Times, you're responsible for giving opinions on both sides in this particular case.

KURTZ: All right. It has become a huge story, Mollie, we saw some of the clips at the top of the segment, the president saying he will defy all the congressional subpoenas, not just saying I don't like this one, I don't want that one, and there are legitimate arguments here about executive privilege and so forth.

The media are kind of portraying this as a major constitutional crisis. I would point out these battles are not unusual. We've seen these in previous administrations. But is the blanket refusal part of what is fueling this coverage?

HEMINGWAY: To your point, you actually had in the last couple of years Congress trying to get information about the Department of Justice as it related to this Russia investigation, and you had nothing but obstruction and delaying efforts from the Department of Justice. You didn't see the media carrying that much about it.

But now that the fight is moved to Donald Trump, now everyone says this is a constitutional crisis. I tend to think that Congress should have the right to see what it wants to see. I'm kind of Article One imperialist myself.

KURTZ: Equal branch of government.

HEMINGWAY: Actually, I would say Congress is actually --

KURTZ: Yeah, the Article One.

HEMINGWAY: -- the one that gets to sort of set this. But is not really, there are legitimate legal battles. They should just cover it accurately including how much transparency there was in the Mueller probe. Remember this was such a wide far-reaching investigation and Donald Trump did not assert executive privilege.

He gave up million plus documents. He let everyone testify. Actually there is a lot of information that people have already. Congress has been running probes as well. So even though they have the right to go for it, there is a lot that has been out there.

KURTZ: Right. And that's the president's argument, which I think the media are very clearly not buying. Just because he gave Mueller a zillion documents and made aides available that he doesn't need to play ball with the House which he says is being very partisan as if Republicans are never partisan in joining Democratic administrations.

TARLOV: Absolutely. I think the president needs to get his story straight. If it's total exoneration and they found nothing then just turn over everything. You should have nothing to hide.

HEMINGWAY: We have spent two years with this investigation that has completely undermined the administration of our U.S. government. The idea that just gets to keep going and you have to just be a supplicant to it is not really realistic. I mean --

TARLOV: I think that when you have --

HEMINGWAY: -- from the media perspective, you have to portray just how complete this investigation has been and how disruptive it has been to the administration. TARLOV: I don't think that there's a problem with the media in embracing the fact that Bob Mueller was complete in his investigation. The issue is with Bill Barr making the final decision and those 10 claims of obstruction of justice. HEMINGWAY: Robert Mueller was the one who made the decision not to indict a single American. In this country, when you don't indict someone, that means that they are not guilty of anything.

TARLOV: No, Bob Mueller laid out the framework. He does not feel that he could make a determination about it.

HEMINGWAY: And it was his only job. His job as a prosecutor is to make that determination.

KURTZ: All right.

HEMINGWAY: He is the one who did not make that. KURTZ: We will have to agree or disagree at this point. I want to ask Sara. As these subpoena battles drag on, as they do and they get bogged down in court, is the public going to lose interest or is it going to just be another process story about well, the president wants this and so-and-so isn't going to testify. What do you think?

FISCHER: I think they are going to lose interest. I actually was talking to an executive at The New York Times who was saying trumped-up is over frost (ph) because some of these proceedings are getting so complicated that people are turning their attention to other stuff, things like --

KURTZ: The Trump bump is over --

FISCHER: Yeah.

KURTZ: -- so circulation is going to go down?

FISCHER: No, not the circulation is going to go down, but just the fact that the increase of subscriptions. They say they saw that go down, like stop in 2018.

KURTZ: I see.

FISCHER: I think people are starting to look at these big fights and they are feeling exhausted by it. KURTZ: Let me turn to language. This is your favorite discussion which is the Mueller investigation. The president's language in several recent appearances and on Twitter and the way the media is reacting. Let's roll a brief clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: They are bad apples. They tried for a coup, didn't work out so well. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: So the president is calling it an attempted coup. For example, Chris Matthews on MSNBC says Trump is using the language of a third world dictator, a crazy Mussolini-style rage. Coup is a pretty strong language.

HEMINGWAY: Coup is a strong language as is some of what is happening in the last couple of years in an attempt to not accept the reality that Donald Trump won the election fair and square. You had people actually try to push a 25th Amendment approach where you have cabinet members oust the sitting president. KURTZ: Some of them if the reports are correct were Trump's own appointees.

HEMINGWAY: But the point isn't about whether it's Republican or Democrats but rather there is a resistance that is engaged in a coup-like behavior. Running informants against a political campaign, spying on a political campaign, making criminal leaks to set a false narrative that many people in the media and other partisans fell for, these are all coup -like behavior.

We still don't even understand how these investigation started, who all was involved with it. It is a serious language but because it it's a very serious thing to happened.

KURTZ: Obviously, Jessica, the literal definition of coup is a military overthrow of the government. Is this just President Trump pushing his critics' buttons by using this kind of colorful and exaggerated language?

TARLOV: It is but it's also dangerous. He tested this out. I think he first said it when he was speaking with Sean Hannity a few nights ago. It obviously resonated with the people that wanted to resonate with so he is going to continue to use it. It is dangerous language. It is inappropriate.

The United States of America is not a country in which a coup would go on hopefully. I meant, that certainly not what happened here. And if you read the Mueller report and if you've been following the coverage of it as well, you would see that this was not a coup. There were many members of the Trump administration that were speaking to Russians then lied about it. Bob Mueller was clear that --

HEMINGWAY: To bar Jessica's line of thinking. If there is nothing to be afraid about, if there was no coup-like behavior, let's just fully investigate exactly how this investigation started, who was involved, and if there is nothing to worry about --

TARLOV: I think that is going to happen. But I find it funny that President Trump is all up in arms and supporters when John Brennan uses the term "treason" for instance.

HEMINGWAY: He was falsely accused of treason which is a capital crime and the idea that this is not --

(CROSSTALK)

TARLOV: -- coup by the intel community, that they woke up one day and said I really hate this guy, so I'm going to put someone in their campaign. KURTZ: We are running out of time. Just briefly, Rod Rosenstein became sort of a media hero, Sara. Defense the investigation and recently criticized the media saying they make attacks, unrestricted by truth or morality, they make threats, spread fake stories and attacking relatives. Back to that coup language, is the president playing to his base and pushing the media's buttons?

FISCHER: Yes, and that's what he does best. I mean, if there is one thing that Donald Trump knows how to do, it's he's an effective communicator and what he does is he picks one word that will resonate that can go viral. He will test it on a show with some sort of favorable personality. And if he sees it is getting a lot of pickup with his base, he will use it over and over.

KURTZ: All right. No coup here. I'm still in charge.

(LAUGHTER)

KURTZ: So, I get to do the tease. When we come back, Joe Biden enjoying very skeptical coverage as he finally jumps into the 2020 race. And later, Anthony Scaramucci on the president ratcheting up his rhetoric against MSNBC, CNN, and The New York Times.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: Joe Biden finally jumps into the presidential race with a video slamming President Trump. A visit to a Delaware pizza joint, he was surrounded by cameras there. It was carried live on CNN and MSNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But if we give Donald Trump eight years in the White House, he will forever and fundamentally alter the character of this nation. Who we are? And I cannot stand by and watch it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KURTZ: On "The View," the former VP was asked about the eight women who have accused him of unwanted touching. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you sorry for what you did? Are you prepared to apologize to those women? BIDEN: Here is the deal. I have to be much more aware of the private space of men and women.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KURTZ: Mollie, considering that Joe Biden is a pretty liberal guy, was Obama's VP, is leading in the Democratic polls, why is the media coverage range from negative to pretty hostile? HEMINGWAY: Part of it is just that he is the frontrunner. He's repeatedly shown up in the polls at the top and that means you take all the incoming. The issue though is that for the first time in a long time, he is not under that protective umbrella of President Obama. The media adored President Obama and they would never go after anyone who might reflect poorly on President Obama.

But now he doesn't have that protection. And so I think you're seeing that media who tend to be liberal and tend to be part of more of the activist base don't find him as woke as he needs to be or as they would prefer.

KURTZ: And not just woke. Sara, before this, I like the guy personally, he is a very vulgarious fellow, my theory is he is an exciting candidate to cover as journalists see it because he's been around forever. He's sort of an old-fashioned campaigner, not a social media guy and not as much as fun as an unorthodox Beto O'Rourke or Mayor Pete.

FISCHER: No, and he's not putting out policy that is going to be radically different than things we've heard. You have people coming in and talking about universal basic income, talking about the green new deal. You know, Joe Biden is sort of a reach across the aisle, dealmaker. He hasn't come out any of these radically new policies with new hashtags around them that is making the media jump all over looking for cover.

KURTZ: Isn't that any hashtags! But Jessica, Slate liberal side says he is a paper tiger, he will be the Jeb Bush -- like Jeb Bush was in 2016. Some pundits on the liberal side not like Biden because they don't think he's liberal enough, he is not promising free college tuition, Medicare for All, let's talk about slavery reparations, sort of along the lines of Bernie and Elizabeth and Kamala.

TARLOV: I think that's part of it. We have yet to see the full platform. I'll be interested, you know, what he does in the health care debate, about improving Obamacare, Medicare for All, all of that. But I think there is also something else that is really important going on here and that is a lot of mea culpas (ph) for the 2016 coverage and even during the Democratic primary where reporters really didn't push Bernie Sanders as hard as they pushed Hillary Clinton, of course.

And even when he got to the general, that Hillary got a different level of coverage than Donald Trump did. I think that reporters want to make sure that they're digging as deep as possible on each of these candidates. Bernie is getting it a lot worse than he certainly did in 2016, if you even look at the "She the People" summit from last week.

KURTZ: He barely got any scrutiny in 2016 because it was just seen as an entertainment --

TARLOV: Right, and now it's a whole lot more serious.

KURTZ: Yeah. These are the refrains you hear from the pundits. This is such a diverse party, Biden is 76, he is out of step, and he is a white guy.

HEMINGWAY: Yes.

KURTZ: It has been written in The New York Times.

HEMINGWAY: This coverage shows the grips of identity politics. But I think it is important for the media to understand that in the same way that they are far more liberal than the average American, they are even far more liberal than the average Democrat.

And the average Democrat likes that Joe Biden is fairly moderate. They like that they think he can beat Donald Trump. And so some of the extremism is just a reflection of news rooms not representing actual readers and viewers.

KURTZ: Jessica, how did Joe Biden handle "The View" questions about the women who say he engaged in unwanted touching?

TARLOV: I think that he handled that question extremely well. I think the Anita Hill conversation was a little bit more difficult. But I want to back up with what Mollie was saying. It's really important. Ron Klein (ph) who was in the Clinton White House had had a great tweet after Joe Biden's fundraising numbers came in.

He said, "I guess there are some Democrats who aren't on Twitter." You know, we live in a bubble this way. Joe Biden does appeal across the aisle. This $6.3 million haul is more than any other candidate.

KURTZ: Right.

TARLOV: It's a big deal. KURTZ: Right. And just briefly, Sara, he seemed to me to be a bit rusty with reporters. I mean, he has not done this for a while. FISCHER: Yeah, he's been out of the game. You have some candidates like, you know, Kamala Harris who not only has she, you know, announced way earlier than him, but she's been a part of hearings on Capitol Hill talking to reporters, engaged in some of these news and fiery topics.

KURTZ: Yeah.

FISCHER: Joe Biden has been sort of privately preparing for this.

KURTZ: Right.

FISCHER: But he is not been publicly facing cameras. So you're right, he has been a few months out while some of his rivals in Capitol Hill have been a few months in.

KURTZ: He is going to have to lift his game with the press, I think. Jessica Tarlov, Mollie Hemingway, Sara Fischer, thanks so much for coming by this Sunday. Ahead, the president saying people The New York Times will have to get on their knees and beg him for forgiveness. But up next, presidential aides joining Donald Trump at last night's White House correspondents' dinner, and this was the biggest celebrity I could find to hang out with.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: President Trump blew off the White House correspondents' dinner last night for the third straight time but there was a twist. Trump ordered his White House staff not to attend either, leaving some news outlets with empty seats they've paid for. That's a shame.

In past years, I've end up chatting with people like Kellyanne Conway and Sarah Huckabee Sanders when she was pretty viciously attacked by comedian Michelle Wolf. That in turn led to correspondents' association to drop the traditional comedian. Last night, "Hamilton" biographer Ron Chernow and its president, Olivier Knox, of Sirius XM delivered a response to Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLIVIER KNOW, PRESIDENT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS' ASSOCIATION: I've had death threats, including one this week. Too many of us have. It shouldn't need to be said in a room full of people who understand the power of words, but fake news and enemies of the people are not pet names, punch lines or presidential.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KURTZ: The president did his usual counter programming with a Wisconsin rally. He didn't actually spend much time bashing the press though there was this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If I'm off by just a little tiny bit, those people back there will be headlines. So I have to be very careful. Fake news. They are fake! They are fake!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Trump did respond to the crowds chant against CNN by saying its ratings -- I'm quoting here, suck. Honestly, the dinner last night was kind of dull. Fewer media hotshot showed up. The president's withdrawal definitely dimmed the excitement. Some of the big media players like Vanity Fair have dropped their pregame batches and glitzy after parties.

But I don't think that's a bad thing. The focus on who can invite the hottest celebrities got way out of control. Now the dinner is returning to its roots as another self-congratulatory industry convention. This one though meant to raise money for journalism scholarships, this time without screwing people.

New York Times ran an unbelievably anti-Semitic cartoon in its international edition, showing President Trump with a yarmulke leading a dog whose face is that of Bibi Netanyahu complete with a star of David collar. Unbelievable! But Times now says the image was offensive and it was an error of judgment to publish it. No apology, a colossal error. Where on God's good earth were the editors?

By the way, President Trump told the CEO Jack Dorsey that Twitter has unfairly removed some of his followers, blaming bias. Dorsey explained that lots of people have lost followers including him as Twitter purges fake accounts and bots. Hey, it's happened to me, too!

Ahead on "Media Buzz," much of the media scolding Bernie Sanders for his stance on allowing prisoners to vote. But first, Anthony Scaramucci on the latest battle between the president and the press, which he says is not the enemy of the people.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOWARD KURTZ, MEDIA BUZZ, HOST: President Trump started out by praising Fox and Friends as the best and most highly rated political morning show before unloading on its rivals.

At MSNBC, he tweeted Morning Psycho Joe who helped get me elected in 2016 by having me on free all the time has nosedived to angry, dumb and sick, a real bad show with low ratings. Joe Scarborough seemed to revel in the free publicity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MORNING JOE CO-HOST: He called me dumb and sick -- well, talked about the poor ratings. And I think this is like the second or third year in a row that we have had record ratings. They just keep going up more and more. We thank the president for drawing everybody's attention to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: As for CNN, Trump said the network was a disaster and it rewarded Chris Cuomo with a now unsuccessful primetime slot, despite his massive failure in the morning, only on CNN. Cuomo used his third-place ratings to make a point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CUOMO PRIME TIME HOST: The struggle is real. We see the need to grow and do even better and we bust our bottoms to do just that. I argue the spread of the president should consider his own criticism. Why? He has mired in the mud of minority approval.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Joining us now from Los Angeles, Anthony Scaramucci, a former White House communication Chief and an informal Trump advisor. Welcome. And this question, what does the president gain by beating up in Morning Psycho Joe, which he claims never to watch, and other than allowing Scarborough and his team to kind of clap back and have some fun at the president's expense.

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS CHIEF: I think you saw last night, Howie. I mean, it was a vivid contrast. He's got a record- breaking crowd out in Green Bay, and then, you've got a lot of people looking to fill their seats at the White House Correspondents' dinner. And so, he's in a full-blown war with the media. And I think they played it into his hand in many ways.

And so, I think actually the president is winning the war. I mean, the Mueller report, some of the stuff inside, it is actually sour, but the top- line headline is very good for the president. And most of the American people have moved on.

So, him tweaking the media like that, I think it -- it drives them into further hysteria, which he plays very well to the base.

KURTZ: OK. You say you talk to the president. Go ahead.

SCARAMUCCI: No. I talked to the president on Easter Sunday. And you know his thing is, he's going to move very, very hard on the base. And the quote from the president was, the independents and the moderates will take care of themselves. Meaning that the economy is very strong, the policies that he has put in place are working. They're very good common sense policies for the American people.

And so, his attitude is, full on the base, he will win in the reelection by galvanizing those people, plus some of the moderates and independents.

KURTZ: Right.

SCARAMUCCI: The strategy does seem to be working.

KURTZ: Let me jump in here. When he does -- when he personalizes it, Morning Psycho Joe, going after Cuomo, when he calls Paul Krugman, a New York Times' columnist, who does not like him stupid, but the guy's a Nobel Prize winner. And when he tweets this, Anthony, the New York Times will have to get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness. Beg for forgiveness? Are you suggesting that he is doing this as a political tactic because his base loves it?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think -- I think is a combination of things. It is counterpunching, which he has done for 45 years. I think it was a successful political tactic in 2016. And so, I think he is doubling down on that strategy for 2020.

I don't like elements of it. There's no question about that. When he's calling people names like that, you know -- you know, he must like it. He gets sore at me for saying that I don't like it publicly, but I don't like it, because I think at the end of the day, he has to win the suburban woman voters.

He had 52 percent the white women vote in 2016. He has got to get back to those levels again in 2020 to win. They don't like that kind of bullying. So, he -- he gets mad at people like me for calling them out on that.

But the truth of the matter is, Howie, I want to see the guy win. He's had a very successful strategy for the American people. The economy is unbelievably strong right now. And it is -- it's deep, Howie, in terms of - - it's not just corporate CEOs and the stock market. It is deep.

KURTZ: I agree with that. I agree with that. I want to stay on the president. I want to play for you the president's interview who phoned-in to Sean Hannity's show. And Hannity asked him whether the president believes the media owe him an apology. Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, they do owe me an apology. A big one. They owe you an apology. We actually have a lot of support. I mean, I watched you and Tucker. And I watched Laura and great guys in the morning with Steve and Brian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Does it help or hurt Fox that while the president is going after much of the media, he is praising and online promoting many of the Fox's conservative opinion hosts?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think Fox executives are concerned about it because they want to make sure there is a separation obviously between the administration and frankly, Fox. But I think in general, it does help Fox, because at the end of the day, his support base is galvanized around Fox. And you can see it in your primetime ratings and it is obviously reflected in the morning ratings.

And so, I do think from a ratings point of view it helps them. But I want to go back to what were talking earlier. The personal attacks in the press, I think the president's strategy, he could be deploying the strategy in reducing the personal attacks on the press. And he will do better with a block of people that he is going to need to get to win reelection.

KURTZ: And on that point...

SCARAMUCCI: He wants to...

KURTZ: And on that point, I would like to quote you.

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah.

KURTZ: In a column that you wrote on The Hill, you said the press, Mr. President, is not the enemy of the people. In many ways, you say the press is the savior of the Republican.

Look, you say the press is flawed, bias, self-righteous, sanctimonious, but is serving the purpose that the founders want. Clearly, you've not persuaded Donald Trump of this.

SCARAMUCCI: No. No one is going to persuade them to be honest. But listen, I mean, I've been -- I've been roiled in the press, lit up on late night comedy. I think I have a pretty good standing to say that the press is not the enemy of the people.

If you go back to the foundation principles of the Republic, the press is there to keep, you know, people away from Tierney. The press is there to guard us from people in power and frankly to hold them accountable.

In addition to that, the free press makes our younger people very creative, Howie. If you can teach people to think freely in the second grade, they go on to create freely and that is where all our economic innovation comes from.

KURTZ: One more.

SCARAMUCCI: We have a big advantage to China related to that.

KURTZ: One more quote from your piece. The president raised about the press, suggesting it is an enemy. He scares Americans. Are these people who you think could potentially get to support him next year who are outside the traditional base?

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah, I don't think -- I don't think he needs to go that far. I mean, look, last night, symbolically, it was a great night for the present. You've got the nerd from -- nerd to the 26th power, a lot of vacant seats, and he's got a packed house in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

And so, the president is winning. You know, I would argue with the press, to change strategies a little bit on the president. They're not going to apologize to them, but the president is an old-fashioned guy. He feels like there's been too much bias against him.

And if they toned it down a little bit, I think they can bridge the impasse. I think you get them to come back to the White House Correspondents' dinner. Although he's never gone to one as president, I was there with there with him three or four years ago at one of the Fox tables.

But you know if they calm down, they can rebuild that relationship with the president. And I think will be a good thing for the president as he is going to 2020.

KURTZ: I would agree with you.

SCARAMUCCI: He will probably disagree with...

KURTZ: My concern is that...

SCARAMUCCI: He will probably disagree with all of that, by the way.

KURTZ: He probably would. And my concern is that both sides are so dug in what has become this war of words. It is difficult to change at this point. Always great to hear your viewpoint, thanks very much. Good to see you.

SCARAMUCCI: Thanks.

KURTZ: After the break, Joe Biden tripped up out-of-box as Anita Hill tells the New York Times she is not satisfied with his non-apology over her 28- year-old testimony.

And later, my conversation with Brian Lamb 40 years after he founded C- SPAN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: Joe Biden's candidacy was just a few hours old when he hit a giant puddle, a New York Times' interview with Anita Hill. Hill has been unhappy with Biden for the way he presided over the 1991 confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas when she reluctantly came forward and accused him of sexual harassment, which the Justice has always denied.

Biden called her a few weeks ago. But Hill told the Times that she was not satisfied by the call. And Biden also owes an apology to the American public. The subject came up on The View.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOY BEHAR, THE VIEW CO-HOST: I think what she wants you to say is I'm sorry for the way I treated you, not for the way you were treated.

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you go back to what I said and didn't say, I -- I don't think I treated her badly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Joining us now, Emily Jashinsky, culture editor at The Federalist, and Richard Fowler, radio talk show host and a Fox News contributor. Emily, Anita Hill certainly didn't help Joe Biden with this New York Times' interview. Do you think there's too much media focus on happened at the Clarence Thomas' hearings back in 1991?

EMILY JASHINSKY, THE FEDERALIST: Well, I think, f course, it is unfair to him because he's running for president, he's got a long record.

KURTZ: Sure.

JASHINSKY: ... over the course of the campaign. I think I understand Joe Biden's frustration when he says, when you look -- when you look back and you look at what I did, because I think what we're seeing is the fruit of two decades. Making Anita Hill seemed much more credible than she was at that time. And a lot of Americans judged at that time that they believe Clarence Thomas over Anita Hill.

And so, I think Biden's really going to have to grapple with that. I mean, HBO bio pics on Anita Hill depicting her in one way, while the public is on the other way, at that time. And so, I think he is frustrated by these two decades that now paints him in a much more negative light.

KURTZ: Some in the media are saying well, if Anita Hill can't forgive Joe Biden, then the Democrats can't forgive Biden.

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think -- I think it's a good question, right. I think here's what we've got to do as a country. I think we better do it sooner rather than later. We've got to stop applying 2019 rules to 1991 problems. And I think we've this over and over again in the media and how they tell stories, especially in the Me Too era. This is -- this happened to him 1984, but this is 2019.

KURTZ: Do you think retroactively, they're trying to beat up on Biden when culture has obviously changed.

FOWLER: Of course, culture has changed. I think if Anita Hill was present today as we saw with Professor Blasey Ford in the Brett Kavanaugh situation, she would be treated a lot differently because times are different.

JASHINSKY: Yeah. I think will be a defining narrative of Joe Biden's candidacy because, again, like what we just said, he has a very long record and he made a lot of decisions that were mainstream Democratic Party line votes back in the day that he has now got to defend.

KURTZ: Right. And so, people, who are alive or have just simply forgotten, Anita Hill is facing an all-male committee.

JASHINSKY: Yes.

KURTZ: Clarence Thomas was allowed to testify first. And Joe Biden under pressure from Republicans didn't allow testimony from two women who Hill thought would corroborate what she had to say. So she was traumatized.

I'm not minimizing what happened by any means. But why is the media making this a litmus test of Joe Biden? You're saying because it's a way of getting at his long record.

JASHINSKY: Well, I think because -- and you've discussed this earlier in the show. He is seen as very out of touch. He is in a field with a lot of fresh faces for the Democratic Party. He is seen as sort of this old guy, he's out of touch with the young blood. And I think this fits that narrative about Joe Biden. And so, it is kind of catnip in that sense.

FOWLER: I think in some sense you're right, Emily, and that there is this sort of sense that they're putting an old narrative in the long history on Joe Biden. But I here's the thing and I think Mollie said it first really well at the beginning of the show, is that for many Americans, that is what they want, right. They want a candidate who is relatable...

JASHINSKY: Right.

FOWLER: They want a candidate who has been through some things, they want a candidate with experience, they want a candidate who has made tough decisions and can talk about them.

And I think what Joe Biden has to do -- the vice-president has to do now is he has to explain those, he has to talk about them, and he has to be really honest and authentic with the American people about Anita Hill, about the Crime Bill,

KURTZ: In the media world, it's almost like you don't get credit for having a long record. You have a whole series of targets then we re-litigate the 1994 Crime Bill, which by the way Hillary Clinton supported, Bill Clinton. It was not just a Joe Biden thing.

And so, I wonder whether the media are penalizing the experience because somebody has got very little experience, they don't have much of a record, and they are new, and they're fresh, and they're exciting.

FOWLER: Something Joe Biden is not.

KURTZ: Yeah, exactly. Let me turn now to Bernie Sanders who has got a lot of media flock stemming from his position about people that are in prison for even very serious issues should be allowed to vote. This came up. I will show you the exchange in the CNN town hall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: I think the right to vote is inherent to our Democracy. Yes, even for terrible people.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: This being like you're writing an opposition ad against you by saying you think the Boston Marathon bomber should vote not after he pays his debt to society, but while he's in jail. Are you sure about that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: And Sanders did not back off.

JASHINSKY: Right.

KURTZ: Even with the Boston Marathon bomber reference. So, if you pundits praised Bernie for sticking to his liberal principles but most I think -- some are giving some pretty expulsion ammunition to his critics. How do you find the coverage of that?

JASHINSKY: And Cuomo said that in real time, you're writing the opposition ad. But if you do look at coverage, they were mainstream defenses of what is very much a fringe position. That's not even mainstream Democratic Party position.

There were defenses of that written in NBC News, there were defenses of that written in New York magazine. And my personal favorite is the New York Times ran a story that said Bernie Sanders' position on prisoners voting opens the conversation about the issue. And I'm thinking if the conservative ever expressed a fringe perspective like that...

KURTZ: Yeah.

JASHINSKY: It would not be framed as opening a conversation.

KURTZ: I've got 20 seconds. It happened on CNN. MSNBC barely covered it. So, when these controversies come up with Democratic candidates, will they just downplay or avoid it?

FOWLER: I think every network has the responsibility to cover these types of things. And I think what you saw from Chris Cuomo in that particular clip was him saying, are you really saying this to the American people?

KURTZ: But it was not a big story everywhere.

FOWLER: I think -- I think what we saw from Bernie was out of mainstream for the Democratic Party. As Emily said, where we -- where we sit as a party is, if you do your crime and pay the society, you should have the right to vote.

JASHINSKY: Yes.

KURTZ: All right. Richard Fowler and Emily Jashinsky, thanks so much for coming in.

Still to come, Brian Lamb taking some parting shots at the media and Washington politics as the C-SPAN founder steps down.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: Brian Lamb launched C-SPAN with donations from cable companies 40 years ago to show people how the House, and later the Senate, actually functioned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN LAMB, C-SPAN FOUNDER: It seems like this building is old and they're going to be rebuilding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, the Senate goes on television, what do you think?

LAMB: I'm going to hold my breath for a while. I have -- I have mixed feelings about it.

Let's go right to those phones. We have a caller standing by, I believe, in Memphis, Tennessee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: He built a morning show based on ordinary folks calling in Lamb told me because CBS, NBC, and ABC talked at us, and the public wasn't able to talk back. As he prepares to stop down, I had a little chat with the founder of C-SPAN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Brian Lamb, welcome.

LAMB: Thank you, Howie.

KURTZ: You launched this franchise 40 years ago so people can see their elected lawmakers at work. But in the media culture, this has become more angry, more opinionated, more polarized, do viewers still want to see members of Congress giving speeches?

LAMB: Well, I don't know if they ever wanted to see them giving speeches. They wanted to be in a process in some way and not everybody. We never appeal to everybody.

KURTZ: But they say, they can communicate with YouTube, and Facebook, and Twitter, and Snapchat and do Podcast. Has technology to some degree marginalized C-SPAN?

LAMB: It is marginalized so much it has given those people in politics and the public tremendous opportunities to play in the game. You know, look at how many candidates we've had for president in the last couple of elections. That rarely happened in the past because they can play in the game without asking our permission or your permission. And I think that is a positive for the country overall.

KURTZ: C-SPAN is scrupulously down the middle. The hosts don't offer opinions, nobody knows your politics. What do you think of all of the emotion and conflict that seems to be built into cable news today?

LAMB: First of all, nobody -- you're the first person to ever care what I had to say about that. I'm not so sure you really care because they're businesses. And they've all figured out including Fox, how to make lots of money.

KURTZ: Their businesses but don't they also have some responsibility to good journalism?

LAMB: It is not written anywhere. I mean, journalism is whatever you want to say it is. For years and years and years, I thought people in journalism had biases. Now, I know what their biases are. And I'm a lot more comfortable knowing that than trying to listen to them telling me they are not on a side.

KURTZ: You've said that Washington is sort of built on a culture of lie.

LAMB: I came to town in the middle of Vietnam War. I sat in the Pentagon as a public affairs officer in the United States Navy. And I was told to lie. I mean, I was given facts and figures that we're not accurate. I heard the Secretary of Defense say we're winning the war when we knew we couldn't win the war. That's where it all started for me. It just got worse and worse.

KURTZ: We've never had a president like Donald Trump. Has C-SPAN changed its approach at all to deal with the very unorthodox way that he conducts his presidency?

LAMB: Donald Trump is not terribly interested in us. We have not really gotten interviews with him. We cover him like we have covered every president. We have noticed that publicly our most active president in history was Bill Clinton and then George W. Bush. They were the most apt to deal with us and talk to us. Barack Obama on -- there has not been much attention to C-SPAN.

KURTZ: You hosted for years, Booknotes. And I was on in the early 90s for my first book.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAMB: Why are some conservatives that think the media is biased?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: I was stunned by -- first of all, 60 Minutes and no breaks. But you were so prepared. You said you wrote on page 246. And I don't remember whatever 246. Will you miss doing the television show?

LAMB: I will. I'm not giving up totally. I'm giving up my Sunday night show that I've done for 30 years. I'm going to do a little stuff around the edges. Yeah, you'll miss it. This is the greatest business in the world for someone like me.

KURTZ: You gave up the CEO duties about seven years ago. So why step down now?

LAMB: I'm 77.

KURTZ: You've earned it.

LAMB: Well, I'm not really that anxious to step down. I just want to get out of anything regular, and spend a little less time coming to the office, that's my favorite part of the day. I would give up sleeping if I could. I do not even like sleeping.

KURTZ: Or take vacations apparently.

LAMB: I don't. I've never been a big vacationer, but my wife deserves me trying to learn to go on vacation. So we're going to give it a shot.

KURTZ: At the age of 77, you can learn a new skill. Brian Lamb, thanks very much for joining us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Doesn't even like to sleep, a terrific guy.

That's it for this edition of Media Buzz. I'm Howard Kurtz.

I hope you'll check out my new Podcast, Media Buzz Meter. We give the day's five hottest stories. You can subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google Play or FoxNewsPodcast.com.

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And by the way, we're going to cover the Democrats as aggressively as we cover the White House, it's good for the media. We will see you next Sunday with the latest buzz.

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