Media pounce on video of cop drawing gun on teens; Huckabee speaks out on Duggar fallout

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 8, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, angry protesters hitting the streets over what they call the latest incident of racist policing in America. What the folks in the middle of this mess say the video today seen by millions only tells part of the story.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. The Black Lives Matter protest group has tonight organized what they call a march for justice in McKinney, Texas, just getting underway there. It started with the Friday evening party in McKinney that quickly went bad. Residents say a rowdy group of teens first started trespassing. Then began harassing the neighbors. Then the confrontation turned really ugly with alleged racial slurs, fights and one police officer caught on camera, now being held up as the latest in a media narrative about cops out of control. Here are parts of the video.



UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER #1: Don't take off running when the cops get here. What's up, man?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It was that guy.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: None of them were involved. I know them.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It was that guy.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER #2: Get on the ground. I told you to stay! (Bleep).  Get down on the ground.  Get the (Bleep) over here. In the grass! Get your (Bleep) out of here!

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sir, we just got here. Sir, we just came to a birthday party. Please.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER #1: We'll figure that out in a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER #2: Right now you're staying. Don't make me (Bleep) around here with 30 pounds in God damn gear on in the son because you want to screw around out here.

You all keep standing here running your mouths you're gonna go, too. Get out of here, I already told you. I don't care. You're leaving now! You are leaving now! You are leaving now! Leave! That way!

Get your (bleep) going! Keep running your mouth!


Get your (bleep) down! On your face!

Keep ruling your mouth.


UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Call my momma, now! He hit me for no reason!  Call my momma, oh, God!



UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Excuse me, sir, I believe that's illegal.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: What are you holding her down for?





KELLY: That video was hard to watch. Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom with the report -- Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, the ACLU called it a textbook case of overuse of force but the ACLU also acknowledged not knowing any facts about the party, the crowd or the fighting which are vital when it comes to context. So, for the record, the party was the combination birthday, graduation pool party. It was advertised on social media and included a deejay from Dallas. Several residents say the music was blasting and inappropriate and that car loads of uninvited teens began arriving, jumping the fence and arguing with security. When some neighbors confronted the organizer of the party, things got physical. Listen to a teen who was cuffed by police, explain what started the original fight.


UNIDENTIFIED TEEN: The two women got mad because we were being disrespectful to our elders. But if they really were our elders, then why were they acting like it? They got involved in the fight. And they were yelling and using profanity towards us.

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC: Can you tell me what the man in question said that sort of precipitated this?

UNIDENTIFIED TEEN: He, well, when we were trying to get a group of teens together in the pool. He said, to go back to section eight housing where you belong and get out of my neighborhood.


GALLAGHER: By most estimates, there were more than 100 teens on site.  Police told us the call came in as multiple juveniles who do not live in the area actively fighting. A dozen police officers arrived on scene. It is unclear at exactly what point in the confrontation this video began rolling but the first few minutes clearly show the officer in question Corporal Eric Casebolt trying to get the teens to sit down and telling a group of young women and girls several times to move on. They refused.  Fifteen-year-old, Dajerria Becton the girl who was subdued, picks it up from there. Listen.


DAJERRIA BECTON, ARRESTED BY POLICE: I'm guessing he thought we were saying rude stuff to him. He grabbed me. And he like twisted my arm on the back of my back. And he shoved me in the grass. He started pulling the back of my braids. And I was telling him that he can get off me because my back was hurting really bad.


GALLAGHER: And as you heard the tape also shows Officer Casebolt using profanity and pulling out his weapon. Here's how the McKinney police chief responded to questions.


GREG CONLEY, MCKINLEY TEXAS POLICE CHIEF: Well, we did see the video.  At this time I'm not prepared to talk about anything in particular but we want, in watching the video, we did want to conduct a full investigation into it.


GALLAGHER: But others in the neighborhood fully support the police action. Bennett Embre who is black, said, quote, "look, I live in this community and this entire incident is not racial at all. A few thugs spoiled a community event by fighting, jumping over fences into a private pool, harassing and damaging property. Not everything is about race."  Another neighbor who you see standing here with police now tells "The Kelly File" that he had to send his family away because he is getting threats.  None of the other officers who responded to the party is being investigated at this point -- Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you. Well, now some locals who were there on Friday evening are speaking out saying this video doesn't tell the whole story. As some cable news broadcasts looped it almost nonstop today with questions about whether this is just the latest in a pattern of police misconduct. Here's just one example.


CORNELL BROOKS, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF NAACP: We are in the midst of what feels like to many young people, a pandemic of police misconduct. We have to take this seriously.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: Do you think there's an element of racism here?

BROOKS: Well, if not racial profiling by policy, racial profiling by assumption. The fact of the matter is we had one white person who was there say, I felt invisible. Because all of these children of color were directed to sit down but I was not.


KELLY: Earlier tonight, I spoke with Sean, a resident of Craig Ranch who was at the pool with his wife and his two young children, including his seven-year-old as well as another friend from the neighborhood when the chaos started.

So how did you know things were out of hand? I mean, what made you call the cops?

SEAN, CRAIG RANCH RESIDENT: Well, one, the music that's being played by the deejay, it wasn't appropriate for kids that my son's age and quite honestly wasn't appropriate for some of the teenagers that were there. And then just the attacks on some of the residents started getting, being called racist were telling the Security Guard about the kids who were jumping the fence.

KELLY: So the residents were called racists for pushing back on the kids who were jumping the fence. Did you hear any of the residents use any racist terms?

SEAN: I didn't hear anything like that. The stuff I was hearing was towards the residents of the pool saying you guys don't want any black people here and you're racist.

KELLY: Well, there was an allegation that somebody there, that a security guard had said to those jumping the fence, something like go back to public housing.

SEAN: No. I never heard them say anything. Even remotely similar to that.

KELLY: When did it escalate to violence?

SEAN: I was taking my family back home. Because my sons were crying and scared. The verbal altercations started when we were walking out and it was another group. And it spiraled from there.

KELLY: What was it that scared your son?

SEAN: It was, I think the things being yelled to the parents about all the teens yelling to us. Just the overall atmosphere, it was pretty intimidating for a seven-year-old.

KELLY: The real pushback has been on this one police officer. This Corporal Eric Casebolt who is a ten-year veteran of the force for in particular, taking down this 14-year-old girl. African-American girl taking her down and putting on knee in her back in what is a shocking piece of videotape. In addition to the way he handled the other teenagers who were running around. People are saying, he is a racist. Explicitly saying, he is a racist. Others saying he used excessive force, he was too aggressive and he mishandled the situation. What say you?

SEAN: I would disagree. He was the first officer to arrive there.  And I mean, it was chaos when he arrived there. And I think he had to had to match that situation with a good amount of aggression to kind of calm the crowd down. I was within feet of him when he sat down, 13 to 15 kids and made them sit down on the ground. And the only people he were going after, people who just got up and started running. And it wasn't just black kids. The white female was one of the first ones I saw in hand cuffs. So, I thought he acted the way he needed to help end the chaos that was happening.

KELLY: Let me ask you about that. Because one of the allegations was he only went after the black kids. Was it just the one white person who you say him place in cops or did you see him go after anybody else who was white?

SEAN: I will saw him going after people who were running. He was only chasing people who got up and ran away from him.

KELLY: Did you see anyone whites people running away or did you see whites other than or was it all blacks?

SEAN: I didn't see any white people running away. The majority of people I saw get up around were black.

KELLY: What about the 14-year-old girl? Because, you know, you see that tape. And it is brutal to watch. How can, you know, justify it?  Because people being home saying, how is he defending that?

SEAN: Well, I think, you know, the officer gave her a chance to leave multiple times to leave and she refused. And one of the things I don't think that's also being talked about is the officer ran out of handcuffs.  And I think if he would have had handcuffs on him, he would have been able to cuff this girl and it won't gone this far. But, you know, he was kind of sitting on her back waiting for other officers to bring cuffs over.

KELLY: I realize this is a seven-minute videotape. How long did the incident last?

SEAN: It had at least started 45 minutes before that seven-minute video was taken. And it probably lasted, you know, 15, 20 minutes after as well.

KELLY: Describe the scene that that officer walked into. Because you know, we see it. And kids are running. And he starts running and he seems pretty amped up.

SEAN: He was. And, you know, I think it was just the situation that he walked into. I mean, there were just people everywhere. People were screaming. And you know, there were little kids running away from the pool crying. So he walked in there in a pretty intense situation. So, I think he just matched the intensity that he walked into.

KELLY: Were there any physical altercations other than the ones that we saw between him and the 14-year-old girl?

SEAN: There was a fight between a young black girl and two middle age white females.

KELLY: Security officers? Were they security guards? The women?  The older women?

SEAN: They were not. One of them, I know, was a resident. The other one I believe was visiting a resident there.

KELLY: Uh-mm. And was that before or after the police arrived?

SEAN: This was before the police arrived.

KELLY: Okay. Was it one of the reason --

SEAN: I was actually on the phone with the police when the fight happened. And I was telling them, now you guys have to get somebody here.  Because the fights are breaking out now.

KELLY: What do you make -- what is the status in the area now?  Because we've spoken with some residents who say, they're scared. Anybody who defends the cops. One guy says he's had death threats. And he's had armed security posted outside of his house. What has your experience been?

SEAN: At this point, the whole neighborhood is pretty uneasy. I mean, there, the protests are happening tonight and based on what we've seen nationally, a lot of the neighbors are kind of concerned about how it may end. And you know, I think the majority of us even as a whole community in Craig Ranch have been labeled a certain way. And that's not sitting well with anybody. Most of the people I've talked to support what the police did. And most people don't think this is a race issue. This is an out of control kids issue.

KELLY: Uh-mm. And what about you, Sean? And I know you didn't want to give your last name. Are you scared? I mean, are you concerned for your own safety?

SEAN: I'm concerned for my family's safety. We've been getting a lot of calls. A lot of people wanting to talk to us. And, you know, based on what we've seen about some of the Facebook and people on Twitter. Some of the stuff being said about people siding with the police. I think we have good reason to be a bit concerted.

KELLY: Thank you for sharing your story with us. We appreciate it, Sean.

SEAN: I appreciate it. Thank you.

KELLY: So, was the officer in this case justified? And why are some media outlets treating this case already like it is Ferguson or Baltimore?  Mark Fuhrman and Richard Fowler are here, next on where the focus on police may take us, next.

Plus, we are continuing to cover the tremendous fallout from the Duggar family scandal in the wake of our interview last week. Including new attacks on Governor Mike Huckabee for his relationship with the family.  The governor is here live to respond to that and how the media has handled this whole thing.


JILL (DUGGAR) DILLARD, SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: I see it as a revictimization that is even a thousand times worse.



KELLY: We are continuing to watch the protest march, the Black Lives Matter protests march down in McKinney, Texas tonight where police are under fire tonight after video surfaced of one officer's response to an out of control party Friday night. In a tape that has now been seen by millions, a McKinney police officer can be seen drawing his weapon before tackling a one 14-year-old girl and pinning her down. That officer is now suspended while an investigation unfolds.

Mark Fuhrman is a Fox News contributor and a former LAPD homicide detective. Richard Fowler is a nationally syndicated radio host.

Mark, let me ask you, because you've defended a lot of cops on this show when videotapes come out that don't necessarily look that good for them. What do you say about this guy?

MARK FUHRMAN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, what I don't like Megyn is him drawing his weapon. Clearly, when you look at the background instead of the officer or the young girl on the ground, you see a middle class community with manicured lawns and people that are dressed nicely and kids that are dressed nicely. So, we're not talking about some, you know, hot bed of crime activity there. And you kind of wonder when he draw that weapon, if those two young boys wouldn't have run. If they would have run towards the officer or he would have made contact, I think this would have turned out very ugly. So, that's hard to defend. The other thing is, what did he know when he got there? What did he know before he got there? And why did he ever run into this by himself?

KELLY: What about the takedown of the 14-year-old girl, Mark?  Because that's the most brutal part of this. And you see him, you know, bending her limbs.

FUHRMAN: You know, I'm trying to figure out why arrest anybody at that point. You have 130 people at the pool party. You have seven agitators that jumped in. You're focusing on control. But arrest of one person ties your hands and now you're completely useless to the rest of the crowd or the other officers. I don't even understand that. And he certainly did not have control of her. It looked kind of bad, the way he was attempting to get her on the ground.

KELLY: Uh-huh. And I'm sure he didn't know she was 14 at the time.  Maybe he did. We can't assume it. But now we know and she looked like a young woman. And it is brutal. I mean, Richard, it was the head of the NAACP came out and said he treated her like chattel. And now people have made this into a race thing. Are we there yet? What is the evidence it is a race thing as opposed to excessive force thing?

RICHARD FOWLER, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: Race aside, Megyn, I think to watch a woman being handle like that by a guy who was two times her size. It made me totally sick to my stomach, to be honest with you, just to watch it. Right? And I for once a little bit I agree with Mark here. I mean, you're in a middle class neighborhood. Whether it is a hot bed of crime or not it shouldn't matter. The police should sort of operate --

KELLY: And it isn't. According to residents, it isn't.

FOWLER: Right. And I think this police officers clearly, you know, clearly, he pulled his gun out for no reason. Clearly they were all unarmed. It was some kids acting up. And, you know, just didn't really need this. Now, where the race comes in, I think the reason why we've gotten here is a recent Pew report found that 71 percent of white Caucasian residents in this country trust the police while 31 percent of African- Americans trust the police. So, you put 14 and 15-year-old who are used to seeing, you know, police, you know, brutalizing young African-American men for whatever the reason might be. And so, they say automatically, we see the police officer. And what we're going to try to do is get away from the situation which is why you have running there. Right? Because for far too long, they see the police as a threat. They think they'll going to be the next Eric Garner or the next Michael Brown or the next Walter Scott. So, we don't want to have anything to do with this. And you'll hear the girl in the video saying, call my mother, please. Call my mother. Because she understands what could possibly happen to her.

KELLY: The girl was no saint either. He had told her to leave and she continued to linger.

FOWLER: That's true, Megyn.

KELLY: And, you know, when a cop tells to you leave, get out. I'm not defending his actions. Let me make that clear.

FOWLER: No, but if you look very clearly, the videos, there are also white guys and there was some, you know, with some jeans and a khaki shirt.

KELLY: Just standing there and you didn't bother. I got it.

Let me get mark to weigh in on the point about how we've gone to the race place on this.

FUHRMAN: Well, first, the police were called by the residents. The residents that live there are white and black. So, I think that's kind of a wash as far as the response by the police. The actions, once the police got there, we've got 11 police officers that aren't being investigated. We have one that's being investigated but he seemed like he was -- I don't know if he was focusing on just black kids. Because the video is rather narrow in its scope so I don't know that. And we don't know those facts yet. But I think they could kind of a leap to go to a racial profiling at a graduation, beginning summer pool party.

KELLY: Yes. We'll hear more. I mean, there's a guest on Hannity tonight, an African-American resident who says, this is not about race and people are jumping to conclusions on this and they shouldn't. So they can stay tuned for that. Guys, thank you both.

Also tonight, after millions watched our Friday night conversation with Jill and Jessa Duggar, some media outlets circled back to the family's relationship with Governor Mike Huckabee. The governor is here to respond.  Don't miss that.


KELLY: Well, developing tonight, new fallout from some controversial remarks as President Obama appears to challenge the U.S. Supreme Court.  Again. Ahead of a ruling that is coming out soon on his signature health care law. Watch this.


PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: I think it is important for us to go ahead and assume that the Supreme Court is going to do what most legal scholars who have looked at this would expect them to do. It is not something that should be done based on a twisted interpretation of four words and so I'm, A, I'm optimistic that the Supreme Court will play it straight when it comes to interpretation.


KELLY: Joining me now, Fox News senior judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano. Judge, and B, why he thinks Congress can fix with at the Supreme Court with just a few little words.

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: Right.  Right. I watched him as he said this. I was astounded by his lack of a sense of decency and a sense of comity. What do I mean? Comity means, c- o-m-i-t-y means that there is equal branches of the government. He's one branch, the Supreme Court is the other.

KELLY: He has got a whole branch.

NAPOLITANO: Right. They intimidate them. He doesn't trying and intimidate them. I say, try. He cannot intimidate them. They have lifetime tenure. As a practical matter, here we are, the second week in June. They have more likely than not already voted on this and they know which way it's going to go. They couldn't care less what he says. He is wrong that legal scholars are in his side. Legal scholars are on both sides --

KELLY: That's right.

NAPOLITANO: Both sides of the Supreme Court does not count.

KELLY: Do you know what legal scholar originally started off? On the side of the challengers. Jonathan Gruber.

NAPOLITANO: I remember that --

KELLY: The M.I.T. adviser to the White House. Until this became an issue is on the record saying, this whole case is exactly as the challengers to the law argue it is. That this law is going to fail because they didn't write it the right way. And then once he realized the consequences, he switched. I got into the specifics of the law with O'Reilly. But here is what jumped out about it to me. You tell me, the Supreme Court, he loves to try to bully them.


KELLY: Remember the State of Union? To their faces, they show up to honor him.


KELLY: And to their faces he tries to criticize when they can't say anything response. And here he goes again.

NAPOLITANO: -- the meaning of that case. That's another case. But I don't know why he said what he said today. He can't intimidate them. He can't change their mind. He had his facts wrong. It is totally inappropriate for the President to do. He should have said the case is before the court and however the court rules, I will abide that ruling.

KELLY: And we will respect the rule of law.


KELLY: He doesn't do that. He likes to amp people up when it comes to these Supreme Court decisions that he doesn't like. Do you think he would feel the same with people, if he were president when Roe v. Wade were decided, do you think he would feel the same if his opponent were saying the same stuff?

NAPOLITANO: Here's the argument he has tried to make. He tried to suggest the Supreme Court should try and figure out the intense of those who wrote the law. That's wrong. It is not their intent. It is the meaning of the words they used. They are presumed to use intentionally the words that they use. His people wrote the law. His people have to live with the law the law the way it is written. They cannot say, we really meant something else. Because they didn't like the way --

KELLY: Well, that is what they're saying. But what is remarkable to me, you tell me as a jurist about that exchanges. He seemed to be intentionally provocative. He seems to telegraph, I don't respect them.  If they don't rule my way, neither should you. And that is not appropriate for the President of the United States.

NAPOLITANO: Absolutely not appropriate. And it tells me, he thinks he is going to lose and he is trying to downplay the significance of that loss and disrespect the court. Guess what, Mr. President, the Supreme Court and not the President has the final word on the meaning of the law and its consistency with the constitution. That's been the law of the land for 230 years.

KELLY: He is already head of the executive branch. He's served Congress on a couple of things that you know have been very notable of this executive action. Now he wants their job too. And that is one of the most boring jobs there is with all due respect. They don't want me.

NAPOLITANO: They don't want me either.

KELLY: Well, the reaction to the sit-down with the Duggar family has generated global coverage and come all the way back to the state of Arkansas and the relationship between a well-known governor and one of America's most famous families. Governor Mike Huckabee is right after this break.

And later, a different looking Dinesh D'Souza is free man for the first time in more than a year and he is here to tell us whether he really did convert those inmates to Republicans.



JIM BOB DUGGAR, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": We went through one of the darkest time our family has ever gone through. And our son Josh came to us on his own he had just turned 14. And he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters.

DILLARD: Josh came and asked each of us individually, I know, he asked me to forgive him.

KELLY: When you found out this was going to be on the cover of In Touch Weekly, what was your reaction?

DILLARD: I couldn't believe what was going on.

I see it as a re-victimization but a thousand times worse.


KELLY: In the wake of our exclusive interview with the Duggar Family, the media bashing continues of the family and its supporters including Governor Mike Huckabee. He found himself part of the story when he first posted about the Duggar scandal a couple weeks ago. He wrote Josh's actions when he was an underage teen are as he described himself, inexcusable but that doesn't mean unforgivable. No purpose whatsoever is served by those who are now trying to discredit Josh or his family by sensationalizing the story.

2016 Republican presidential candidate and former Fox News Host Governor Mike Huckabee join me now. Governor, Thank you for being here.

So you were roundly criticized for standing up for the Duggar Family. In particular, the quote that I -- jumped out at me, to be honest, was the following. "No one needs to defend Josh's actions as a teenager. But the fact that he confessed his sins to those he harmed, sought help, and has gone forward to live as a responsible life as an adult is testament to his family's authenticity and humility." His family's authenticity and humility has come under attack for being so out there in criticizing gays and lesbians, push for marriage equality in the wake of what they -- and their protestations about how you're supposed to treat family and children in the wake of what they did. Did you go too far?

MIKE HUCKABEE, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Absolutely not.  What I was simply saying is that in every family, we all deal with crises, we deal with issues, now, if the Duggars had never gone to counseling, never submitted themselves to the elders of their church, they went voluntarily to the police. They took many, many steps that's many parents don't take under similar circumstances. Megyn, the thing that I think gets lost in this is that opening this whole thing up publicly violated Arkansas law. As someone who governed the state and understood juvenile law, I was just stunned and shocked that number one, the victims were exploited in this by the media for their own purposes. There was no interest in the media to protect those girls. There was no interest to make sure that their interests were served. And I think your interview pointed out that they had a very different reaction to all of this than did their critics, who were out to destroy their family.

KELLY: The girls in particular said they have all forgiven Josh. The family has moved on and they said they felt victimized a thousand times worse by the release of the information which they wanted to keep private.  The city attorney -- I realize the judge has ruled the release of this police record was unlawful. But the city attorney there who authorized it to the police chief said there was nothing wrong with this. When we investigated Josh Duggar, even though he committed the acts while a juvenile, he was 18 when it got released, when he got investigated.

HUCKABEE: Megyn, he was an un-adjudicated minor at the time that this happened. You're an attorney. You understand that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

KELLY: But he confessed.

HUCKABEE: He was never adjudicated. He did not confess in a court of law. The law does not hold him accountable, even if he confesses. The bigger issue is not Josh, the bigger issue, the girls. How were the girls served? How were the victims served by the exploitation, by the release, the unlawful release, I'm going to go back and emphasize the illegal unlawful release of that information. It was not about the victims. It was about trying to go after the Duggars. They have been known as a family that is a Christian family. If a Liberal has anything like this kind of situation, it's no big deal. And I think we all have heard the comparison between this and Lena Dunham who wrote about it in her book.

KELLY: The critics on the other side say that if the Duggar's were atheists, people like you would not be defending the actions of Josh Duggar.

HUCKABEE: Can anybody find where I have ever blown up the issue for somebody else? The closest thing is comparing the obvious one that I just mentioned. But I don't go out there. I don't want to destroy anybody.  Megyn, the one thing about a true Christian believer, you don't want to hurt people, destroy people. That's not your goal. You want to uphold truth, you want to uphold common sense. But you don't go out there to specifically target individuals, and see if you can exploit them for your own gain.

KELLY: Let me ask you this, because I know you were just in Iowa.  Are people talking about this? It has been such a big story in the nation.  Do you hear about this from voters at this point?

HUCKABEE: No. People in Iowa, people in South Carolina, people in other states I've been. They want to ask me about the Trade Partnership Act. They're concerned about the fact their jobs are disappearing.  They're concerned that they're working two part-time jobs instead of having one good full-time job. They're scared to death about terrorism coming to their own streets and their neighborhoods. I never get a question about this unless it is to say, by the way, why is this big issue? But as far as, is this what is burning in the hearts of voters? Is this what they're going to use to decide the next President? Absolutely not.

KELLY: I have to end it on this note. I understand there was a bit of news in the Huckabee Clan. Is it today that your daughter gave birth to a grandson? I'll let you break the news.

HUCKABEE: Well, my fifth grandchild, my daughter's third, little George Huggins Sanders came into the world 2:51 this morning. Eight pounds, three ounces, and naturally I think he is an adorable kid. Just like the other four, all of whom are under the age of 4. Needless to say there's lots of noise when our family gets together.

KELLY: I hope he gets lots of Huggins just like his name, great to see you, Governor.

HUCKABEE: Thank you, Megyn.

KELLY: Why do you think this Duggar story went global? What is it about this family that has prompted such a fierce back lash? Dana Loesch and Robert Zimmerman have some thoughts on that next.


KELLY: Developing tonight, our interview with the Duggar family has now been seen by tens of millions of people. It has generated thousands of print stories and touched off a new debate about one of America's most famous families and the life they have lived both on and off TV. Dana Loesch hosts "Dana" on the Blaze TV and is the Author of the new book, "Hands off My Gun." And Robert Zimmerman is a Democratic Strategist and the Co-Founder of Zimmerman-Edelson and Public Relations, great to see you both. What is about it the Duggars? Dana?

DANA LOESCH, DANA HOST, THE BLAZE TV: I think that they share something with all of these other reality families, via the Robertson's or anyone else, the Kardashians, anyone else who has invited cameras into their home and have made their family life content. People -- the American society, they love that, they are very voyeuristic. They love watching this. It is an escape for them just as anything else...


KELLY: That doesn't justify the enormous interest in this particular family. There's something about them.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They're not just another reality TV show. I know the American family world is watching. They're the Lindsay Lohan Family with Bibles. Their conduct.


ZIMMERMAN: You could say Mrs. Duggar is Joan Crawford with a Bible.  The reality here is that their show -- the way they dealt with this terrible tragedy was one issue. The other point is they put themselves out there as the epitome of conservative values, as ambassadors of Christian values. Yet they use their position and they use their celebrity to preach hate mongering and fear, especially toward the gay and lesbian community, even so far as Josh Duggar being Executive Director of the Family Research Council, and organization that even attacks our servicemen and women who are gay and links homosexuality to pedophilia.

LOESCH: They don't do that.

KELLY: Definitely against gay marriage, no question. Go ahead, Dana.

LOESCH: Can I correct Robert's cultural example just for a minute?  His reference to Lindsey Lohan with the Bible, accurately it would be Lena Dunham with the Bible or perhaps Bill Clinton with a Bible. That's a little more apropos. That's, right. You celebrate those individuals.  That's the big difference. The big difference is the standard.


LOESCH: Robert, act like a gentleman. Let a lady finish. Come on.

You can still believe what Josh Duggar did was abhorrent as I do. I think it is disgusting. I don't think there's any excuse for it. However I don't crawl into these families minds and say I know they're repentant and their allowance for grace better than anyone else but you do and that's the March difference.

ZIMMERMAN: May I make a point? I'm not trying to crawl into their minds I'm just reading what they say publicly. What the Duggar Family says publicly, but Josh Duggar says publicly is the worst kind of hate mongering.

KELLY: Can I ask you that, Robert? I look back, obviously. I've done a lot of research on this family. Michelle, I get with it the robo-call.  She compared transgender people to child molesters which I asked her about.  But Josh, he's made a lot of statements opposing gay marriage, talking about family values and the need for a mother and a father. Is there something specific that he has said beyond that that you're thinking of?

ZIMMERMAN: He has a leadership position in an organization which has espoused the most hateful rhetoric towards gay servicemen and women in the military.

KELLY: The family research council alliance. I'm genuinely searching. What do you think, Robert? Do you think that there is a greater desire to celebrate their troubles because they have been so outspoken on the issue in particular of gay marriage?

ZIMMERMAN: I honestly don't think that's the issue. I think that they hold themselves out there as paragons of virtue and the family...

KELLY: The hypocrisy.

ZIMMERMAN: The hypocrisy is the issue plus the hate mongering. And I go back that to that point Megyn because for Josh Duggar to associate, to take a leadership role in a hate mongering organization, to attack the gay and lesbian community is fine if he is opposed to marriage equality, but it is wrong for him to try to use faith to preach fear and prejudice.

LOESCH: I think I would disagree with Robert in that. If you want to talk about fear mongering and hate mongering, which isn't a substitute for just thinking differently and being able to faith and thinking differently on same sex marriage, you have to look at (Inaudible) who is driven from his job. Look at all the individuals, the Brennan Brothers, the Robertson's, any Christian Megyn in pop culture is eviscerated by the left if they hold a position of faith on a social issue and this is just a vehicle through which to further attack Christians. They're exploiting it.

KELLY: I got to leave it at that, great to see you both.

ZIMMERMAN: Good to be with you.

KELLY: Up next, a different looking Dinesh D'Souza is now a free man for the first time in months and he is here.


DINESH D'SOUZA, CONVICTED OF CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS: The conservative accepts the world is a dangerous place. I'd rather pull the band wagon than sit in the band wagon. I think that's probably what distinguishes me from a lot of other people.




D'SOUZA: I think under is better but you got to decide.


KELLY: That is a different looking Dinesh D'Souza from a Vanity Fair profile on his time in confinement. Dinesh is here for his first TV interview since he got out of the joint, Dinesh good to see you. You're back, you're a convicted felon, and you served your sentence. It wasn't really hard-time but how was it?

D'SOUZA: Well Megyn, it was -- remember when I came on your show right after my sentencing and I was thrilled not to have a prison sentence and instead to be given the eight months in a confinement center. I was a bit surprised when I got in the confinement center to recognize it was the whole gamuts of criminals from, you know murderers to burglerers to people who had been bringing people across the border, drug smugglers.

KELLY: People like you who made an illegal campaign donation. It's quite a range.

D'SOUZA: It was a rough crowd. On the other hand, after an initial period of caution in which I basically kept to myself, I tried to figure out if there were gangs going on in there. I tried to figure out how I would survive over eight months of sleeping you may say with the hoodlums.  After a while I figured it out. And then I began to talk to them, I began to learn about their lives. I recognize Megyn I was in a very unusual position that very few people find themselves in. Almost like an anthropologist in a strange land. That was a lot to learn.

KELLY: You say a lot of the guys in there even like the murderers consider themselves small fry, why?

D'SOUZA: Well what I realize is there is a kind of -- you may say shamelessness among the criminals. We want people to be rehabilitated and we want them to feel appropriately humbled to accept what they did was wrong. Interestingly, most of these people do. It's not like in the Shaw Shank Redemption where they say we're innocent. No, they admit that what they did was wrong but they also have this view, it's an ideology you might say that they are the small fry that the big criminals are out there.  They're at large. They're so powerful that the system can't get them. In fact, they are the system. So I found this to be a very provocative and in a sense interesting idea. I'm trying to research it now to investigate whether the criminals are basically right.

KELLY: I sense a new book and new movie in your future. I'm up against a break. Did you convert anybody to Republicans like you said you were going to?

D'SOUZA: I wasn't trying to convert the guys in prison. Remember they can't vote. In my teaching English, I'm teaching Hispanics about 100 students. I will Megyn that at the end of my eight months if you took a vote among my students today between me and Barack Obama, I don't believe that Obama would get a single vote.

KELLY: Dinesh, welcome back. We'll be right back.


KELLY: Tune in tomorrow night. Brit Hume will be here, also James Rosen and the Baltimore cops are finally speaking out in "The Kelly File" exclusive. Don't miss that, DVR us and we'll see you tomorrow at 9.

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