Media, feds harsher on Roger Stone than Jeffrey Epstein

This is a rush transcript from "Tucker Carlson Tonight," November 18, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

Tucker Carlson, host: Well, good evening, and welcome to "Tucker Carlson tonight." Things move fast in the AOC generation. History is 2017. So, for a little perspective, we're going to take you back -- Massachusetts unveiled her version of a Green New Deal, but this is for crime. It's a big plan. There's a lot -- we could spend all hour talking about it. But some of its provisions include these: ban life sentences -- all life sentences. Ban the prosecution of minors as adults. Okay. Legalize prostitution. Decriminalize the theft of -- quote -- necessary goods, remove police from public school, and far more. It even includes a provision for reparations based on skin color, for good measure. That was not clear what that has to do with justice, because, of course, it's the opposite of justice. Ian Samuel is a former Supreme Court clerk, and he joins us tonight. So, Ian, thanks so much for coming on. This is a big proposal. Some of it, probably, is non-crazy. A lot of it is crazy. I mean, it's sort of hard to generalize about it. But let's just take a couple issues in there --

Ian Samuel: Sure.

Tucker Carlson: -- specifically, because I think they're interesting. One is decriminalizing prostitution. So, how can we be against human trafficking -- which is really another word for abetting prostitution -- and yet decriminalize prostitution? Is the idea that women are prostitutes because they want to be, because they think it's, like, a great deal for women? What is the idea?

Ian Samuel: Well, you don't have to necessarily believe that. Some people do think that, and I think there's reasonable disagreement about the extent to which anybody is really free when they're selling their [unintelligible] capitalism but that's kind of a side issue. But what you can ask is the best way to do something about human trafficking, to criminalize the people who are being trafficked and what they're doing? Or do you want to go after it at a different level? And to me it actually makes a great deal of sense to say if you're the person being trafficked we don't want to make your life worse we'd like to help you not threaten you with jail, we want to go after the people like, you know, Epstein, and you know, Trump and the Clintons and everybody else that's actually doing the trafficking.

Tucker Carlson: Or the --

Ian Samuel: Prince Andrew, all of them.

Tucker Carlson: Or the pimps.

Ian Samuel: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: I guess here's the bottom-line principle, which is always true. When you criminalize something, you get less of it. Now, some things shouldn't be criminalized just on principle, but the truth is like cirrhosis deaths went way down under prohibition. No one wants to say that but it's real. So, if you legalize prostitution, when you legalize people camping on the sidewalk, you get a lot more of it, and that affects the lives of everyone else. So, what about their rights? I guess is my question.

Ian Samuel: Well, I'm not sure you get a lot more or I mean of course you're going to have every policy is going to have some effect but the question you have to ask is putting somebody in a prison, a dungeon, that's a big, big idea, right? That's a big intervention and you have to ask is this, you know, say you've got somebody who's sleeping on the street or they're urinating in public because they don't have anywhere else to go to the bathroom. Now, I agree if you threaten to put those people in jail you may get a little less of it. But you have to ask, is that really the way you want to solve like public urination and not --

Tucker Carlson: Well, I don't know. It all depends --

Ian Samuel: --- have a place to go to the bathroom?

Tucker Carlson: It all depends. I mean, so like let's say I live -- if people are camped out on my sidewalk defecating in front of my front door and I've got little kids, I mean, I have rights here, too.

Ian Samuel: Yes.

Tucker Carlson: So, having the ability to say you know what? Go do it somewhere else. You can't do it here. I worked hard for this house. Buzz off. Leave. You're freaking my kids out. Like a normal society recognizes the right of a person to say those things, but the left doesn't.

Ian Samuel: I totally --

Tucker Carlson: Because they side wholly with the deviant 100 percent of the time. It's the person who gives the finger to society who tries to tear down what the rest of us have built. They're on his side, every time.

Ian Samuel: Well, I don't know about that. I do think going to the bathroom is actually not such a deviant behavior, but I agree with one thing you said.

Tucker Carlson: On the sidewalk?

Ian Samuel: Which I agree with one thing you said, which is we can't have a society where we just treat as normal hey, a lot of people just have to go to the bathroom on the sidewalk because they don't have any other place to do it.

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Ian Samuel I just don't think the right answer is well, we're going to put you in jail, and you can go to the bathroom there. Like, that's a solution. It's just not a very good one. Nor is it particularly kind, Christian, or anything else.

Tucker Carlson: And, actually, I'm not arguing for that. What I'm arguing is that when you "decriminalize" theft as they have in California what you're basically saying is the chaos that the tech oligarchy has given us is like totally normal and okay and if you complain about it you're against civil rights when in fact if you complain about it you're just a normal person who wants to live in an orderly clean society.

Ian Samuel Well, are you going to criminalize the theft of bread? You don't like Les Miserables? I mean, what are you talking about? I mean, and by the way, the tech guys are the ones that hate the new San Francisco D.A. the most, which is a reason to love him if there ever was one.

Tucker Carlson: The tech guys created the feudal society that we're watching destroy that city. But anyway, great to see you tonight. Thanks so much.

Ian Samuel: Nice to see you. Thanks.

Tucker Carlson: Well, the Democratic Party's dramatic lurch to the left on well, pick an issue, crime and everything else, seems to have even Barack Obama, who started it, worried. On Friday Obama warned a room full of liberal donors that most voters out there actually don't want a radical revolution in America. Watch this.

Barack Obama: We are bold in our vision. We also have to be rooted in reality. They like seeing things improve but the average American doesn't think that we have to completely tear down the system and remake it. And I think it's important for us not to lose sight of that.

Tucker Carlson: Now, you may have forgotten but Barack Obama won two elections in a row, pretty comfortably both times. Now he's too far right to get the democratic nomination. That's not speculation. It's literally true. The party's cadre of red guards would not have him. Case in point. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar tweeted this on Saturday, "If being too far left # (illiterate) means believing health care is a human right future generations should live on a healthy planet, all student debt should be cancelled, minimum wage should be $15, lives depend on gun reform, and families don't belong in cages, count me in!" arm flexing emoji. Richard Goodstein is a lawyer and former advisor to Bill and Hillary Clinton. He joins us tonight. So, are you for the exclamation point and the arm flexing emoji? Does that describe your feelings on the subject?

Richard Goodstein: I think in this case Ilhan Omar is really not in the mainstream of the Democratic Party. It's true. The Democrats do want health care which this administration is going to court to try to basically make sure tens of millions who got it thanks to the Affordable Care Act won't have it. Democrats do want to do something about gun violence, which this administration absolutely would rather not talk about, et cetera, but the way she's framed this issue is kind of crazy. It ignores the fact that she's in the majority because 40 Democrats beat Republicans in red districts as moderates, former military people, former intelligence people.

Tucker Carlson: Right. No, no, I got it that you guys ran all the --

Richard Goodstein: Well, and that's why she should --

Tucker Carlson: All the CIA analysts. Right.

Richard Goodstein: She should thank her lucky stars that people like Obama are sending the message that he is.

Tucker Carlson: But let me ask you. So, being for health care and against gun violence is like, you know, being for puppies and child --

Richard Goodstein: Not today.

Tucker Carlson: Right. Gun violence? No one's for it obviously.

Richard Goodstein: Perfusion of guns.

Tucker Carlson: Right. What percentage of Americans is for giving unlimited free health care to illegal aliens?

Richard Goodstein: I think that's small and I think that -- I think --

Tucker Carlson: What percentage of democratic candidates are for it?

Richard Goodstein: I know my candidate Michael Bennett opposed it.

Tucker Carlson: Okay. I've never even heard of Michael Bennett, with some respect.

Richard Goodstein: Learn.

Tucker Carlson: I'm just kidding. No. He's obviously the congressman from New Mexico.

  Richard Goodstein: The fact of the matter is I will say this, what you're saying was true about caravans. It's what the opponents to John Bell Edwards and Andy Beshear ran on. It's what Donald Trump has had every rally around. And in 2018 and this year that was a losing message.

Tucker Carlson: Okay. So, --

Richard Goodstein: What you're trying to suggest.

Tucker Carlson: So, John Bel Edwards, who I'll just be totally blunt with you.

Richard Goodstein: I understand where he is on abortion.

Tucker Carlson: I would've voted for him, okay? And I'll tell you why because on abortion and the right to self-defense, he's 100 percent. He's just out there. He's one of the only Democrats whose prolife and pro-gun and so am I and amen. The -- he's the opposite of every person including Michael Bennett or whoever the guy is from Mexico or Colorado, he's the opposite of every democrat running for president. Every single one and you couldn't run for president with his issues.

Richard Goodstein: Well, maybe Louisiana's the opposite of a lot of the --

Tucker Carlson: It is. No, it is but you invoked his name and Beshear too in Kentucky.

Richard Goodstein: Well, I don't think Beshear is anywhere close to -- I mean, Kentucky is a different state and the fact of the matter is again the biggest caucus in the House democratic caucus is of new Democrats, 103 dwarfing the progressive caucus.

Tucker Carlson: Okay. So, last question and I don't mean to be mean to you because I know, actually, we probably agree on some of this stuff, but why if what you're saying is true is there no leading presidential top three presidential candidate whose espousing those beliefs? There isn't.

Richard Goodstein: Oh, gosh. I mean, if you add up what Biden and Buttigieg and others moderates, I mean, look, --

Tucker Carlson: They're --

Richard Goodstein: Patrick are getting into this race because they think there needs to be greater voice to the moderate point of view. Great. And there will be thanks to them. We'll see how far they go but the fact is I tend not to put as much weight as you do on the Sanders, Warren wing carrying the day. I think frankly Bernie Sanders brought Hillary Clinton down with him because he bad-mouthed her to the end and his supporters didn't vote. But -- but I tend to think, and the polls indicate what democratic voters in swing states want is somebody who's more moderate and somebody who's going to work with Republicans --

Tucker Carlson: Do you think it's weird that the moderate -- I mean, I would say Biden's moderate temperamentally. He's kind of a friendly guy.

Richard Goodstein: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: But he's for giving unlimited free health care to illegal aliens.

Richard Goodstein: Well, I mean, it's funny in this day and age, right, he was a liberal democrat when he was a senator from Delaware. I agree with that, and it shows how far things have moved but I think --

Tucker Carlson: Yeah, I think it's scary, man.

Richard Goodstein: By today's standards I think he's relatively --

Tucker Carlson: Revolution's coming, Richard. You're in trouble. You're welcome over here any time. Good to see you.

Richard Goodstein: Thanks.

Tucker Carlson: ABC News helped protect Jeffrey Epstein's friends from scrutiny. Why is the press so eager to ignore one of the biggest scandals of the past century? It's a really interesting question. We're going to raise it again. And then has Kanye West become improbably one of our top Christian evangelists? Didn't ever think you'd say that, did you? It could be true. That's all ahead.

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Tucker Carlson: For about 20 years, Jeffrey Epstein avoided any serious punishment for abusing young girls. A lot of them apparently many, many, many. Even though his behavior was an open secret, he got away with it because he was affluent, and he had many powerful friends like Bill Clinton. Even after his suicide, we're still uncovering what went on. We still only know a fraction of it. But here's part of what we know. Prince Andrew, a member, of course, of the British royal family, was very close to Epstein during the period where he was abusing underage girls. Now, over the weekend, the prince gave a thoroughly bizarre interview, something you really have to see to believe, to the BBC, in which, among other things, he summarized Epstein's decades of abuse, and we're quoting now "as unbecoming."

Prince Andrew: Do I regret that he has quite obviously conducted himself in a manner unbecoming? Yes.

Female Speaker: Unbecoming? He was a sex offender.

Prince Andrew: Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm being polite.

Tucker Carlson: As soon as we're off the air tonight go to, as soon as Sean's done, at some point, go to YouTube to watch the whole thing. It's like unbelievable. The prince also said he did not regret being close to Epstein. Watch.

Female Speaker: Do you regret that trip?

Prince Andrew: Yes.

Female Speaker: Do you regret the whole friendship with Epstein?

Prince Andrew: No, still not for the reason being is that the people that I met and the opportunities that I was given to learn either by him or because of him.

Tucker Carlson: There a lot of learning, a lot of teaching going on at Jeffrey Epstein's house, took on the island. Well, even though photographs show the prince with his arms around the waist of an Epstein accuser, prince says it wasn't him. It was probably faked.

Prince Andrew: Nobody can prove whether or not that photograph has been doctored. But I don't recollect that photograph ever being taken.

Female Speaker: And you don't recollect having your hand around her waist?

Tucker Carlson: Well, one of the reasons that Prince Andrew has avoided answering the most basic questions for so long, of course, is because of the behavior of the news media, very much including ABC News in this country. They suppressed reporting into the Epstein scandal, apparently under pressure from the royal family. Now, just yesterday, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy sent a letter to ABC News demanding answers in this story. Elizabeth Wagmeister has been following this from beginning. She's a senior variety correspondent at Variety, and she joins us tonight. So, Elizabeth, thanks for coming on. What is this letter from the House minority leader say?

Elizabeth Wagmeister: He is demanding answers from ABC. So, he said, "Why did you not air this interview?" Which Amy Robach, she, of course, was caught on a hot mike. We spoke about that a few weeks ago, Tucker, where she said that she had an accuser of Jeffrey Epstein. She says she had all the goods that was ready for air, of course, at the time. ABC said it was not ready for air. So, in this letter, he's asking, why was this hidden? And will you send this interview to Congress so that we can see it? He's asking for all of the answers because there's many, many questions. And he even goes as far to say that over the years since this interview was conducted, that if the interview did air, it could have possibly prevented more underage women from being sexually trafficked.

Tucker Carlson: Huh. Has it, I mean, this is a major development, I think. Has ABC responded?

Elizabeth Wagmeister: They have not. So, I reached out to ABC, Tucker. They are declining comment. But what I will tell you, because, of course, at the time when Amy Robach's video leaked, ABC said it was not ready for air. And they also pointed out we have not shied away from covering the Jeffrey Epstein saga. Well, I have to tell you this morning, of course, I tuned into Good Morning America. They did cover the Prince Andrew interview at length. They spent about 10 minutes on it. So, they weren't shying away from covering that now, which I think was a very clear, obvious step to say, look, we are covering it.

Tucker Carlson: Huh. Did they suggest there's any conflict that one of their anchors once aided Jeffrey Epstein's house. Have they addressed that on the air?

Elizabeth Wagmeister: They have not addressed that on the air. Also, this morning, you know, Amy Robach, she was not the one to present the story. I guess that could have been a little awkward, you know. But, Tucker, I want to get back to Prince Andrew's interview. You were just going through some of the most bizarre moments. What should they? It was one after the other. It's perplexing how this even happened. The interview actually occurred in Buckingham Palace, which signals that the queen did approve this interview. It seems like he went through absolutely no coaching. He had no empathy. He didn't even mention any of the victims. One of the most bizarre parts, though, is when he said that he has a medical condition where he cannot sweat because the victim had mentioned in many of her accusations, she said that at one point she was dancing at a nightclub with him in London and that he was sweaty. So, he's going as far to come up with these bizarre, bizarre excuses. Now, another thing that you brought up. He said that he doesn't even know this woman. And then, of course, there's that infamous photo with his arm around her. He says it's photo shopped. I mean, it's like he's hanging out with Lori Loughlin or something. It's bizarre what he's been saying.

Tucker Carlson: [laughing] Can't sweat. He has a medical condition. So that's what we've heard from the BBC.

Again, treat yourself. It's on our Facebook page for our viewers who want to see the rest. Elizabeth, thanks so much for that.

Elizabeth Wagmeister: Thank you, Tucker.

Tucker Carlson: Well, there is an investigation into how exactly Jeffrey Epstein died while in custody in Manhattan prison. According to reports, federal charges are imminent against the guards were supposed to be guarding Jeffrey Epstein. Reportedly, the guards have already declined a plea deal offer. Ed Gavin is a former NYPD officer, now works as a private investigator and joins us tonight. Ed, thanks so much for coming on.

Ed Gavin: Thanks for having me.

Tucker Carlson: So, these guards, I mean, even the mayor of New York, who I think is usually kind of out of it, Bill de Blasio, weighed in and seemed to kind of attack these guards. Tell us what charges they may be facing and what it means that they declined a plea deal.

Ed Gavin: Well, if they're facing charges, it would be for failing to efficiently perform their duties as correction officers. They're required to make tours at frequent intervals. I believe in the special housing area every half hour. But it could be a fishing expedition on the part of the feds, too, because I think if they had enough evidence to make the arrest, they probably would have collared these officers already. And if their attorneys are telling them not to take the plea deal, there's got to be something more to it. Now, if the cameras weren't working, that's to their advantage. I mean, they can say, look, I made, we made our tours every half hour. The cameras aren't working. Unless they're going to interview inmates, and they're going to take the words of inmates. And if the inmates can say, "Well, the officers were sleeping, or all the officers were making their required tours of inspection." It all depends on what the investigation shows.

Tucker Carlson: You have a very high-profile prisoner whose life has apparently been threatened. Before the purported suicide, he was quoted as saying he feared for his life. How strange is it in your view that there were no cameras trained on his cell or in the hallway outside?

Ed Gavin: Well, it's patently outrageous. I mean, you have a special housing area, and he's arguably probably the most high-profile pretrial detainee in federal BOP history.

Now, I mean, the feds messed this up from the onset. I mean, initially this individual, Mr. Epstein, was placed in a cell with Nicholas Tartaglione who is a former Briar Cliff Manor police officer who was charged in a quadruple murder. He was in protective custody as a police officer. He was taken out of protective custody and he immediately received a wantonly gratuitous beating to the point where they had to put a metal plate in his orbital.

So, why would you put Jeffrey Epstein in a cell with this guy? You know, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein for all intents and purpose is a sex offender. He's a second-time offender and you're going to put him in a cell with this guy? That didn't make any sense. And then to take him off of suicide watch. That doesn't make any sense at all. What he should've done -- what should've happened is he should've been taken to a municipal hospital like Belleview where he could've been evaluated by a psychiatrist and that didn't happen.

So, what do they do? They put him in a cell by himself, okay? And they put him on a floor with a correctional officer who is not even a certified correction officer and then you have Michael Baden, a world-renowned pathologist, he comes along. He looks at Jeffrey Epstein. He does his own independent autopsy and he's done -- he's been doing this for 50 years. He's done over 20,000 autopsies, and Michael Baden determines that the injuries that Jeffrey Epstein sustained are not consistent with suicide by hanging but rather suicide by strangulation.

So, the only thing that I can think that might've happened is maybe the officers won't doing their jobs. Maybe they were sleeping. Maybe unknown, you know, individuals, inmates, officers, civilians, I don't know, went into Jeffrey Epstein's cell, strangled him and then put a ligature around his neck to make it seem like he was hung, like there was a hanging. I mean, what else could possibly have gone wrong there?

  Tucker Carlson: Doesn't -- you know, under normal circumstances I would say Ed, that's crazy, but under these circumstances I'm not going to say that because it's clearly not crazy. Ed, thanks so much for coming on tonight. Appreciate it.

Ed Gavin: Thanks for having me.

Tucker Carlson: Roger Stone was convicted in federal court last week on seven felony charges stemming from the since closed Russia collusion investigation. Stone's main crime was lying to Congress about who he had or had not spoken to about Russia. By the time Stone's trial began in Washington the larger scandal that ensnared him had long been debunked. Nobody was talking about WikiLeaks anymore. Nobody cared. And yet prosecutors continued zealously as if it were still 2017. For lying about something that is now officially irrelevant, they argued that Roger Stone should spend up to 50 years in prison, effectively the rest of his natural life.

Now, at the very moment prosecutors were making that case that Stone's misstatements ought to be a death penalty offense, Congressman Adam Schiff was busy lying to the rest of us about new things, some of which actually mattered. Schiff didn't seem worried about his lying. He knew he would never be prosecuted for it. In Washington dishonestly is strictly a one-way offense. Yet despite the obvious irony of all of this Roger Stone was convicted anyway. And official Washington cheered. "Rot in hell," they screamed on Twitter, obvious to karma, which by the way is real.

What's interesting about the response to Stone's case, both from federal prosecutors and from the conventional opinion makers on television is how much harsher and more outraged it was that anything that greeted convicted child molester Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think George Stephanopoulos would even consider having dinner at Roger Stone's house? Well, of course not. That would be immoral. FBI officials apparently agree with that. You remember what happened when Roger Stone was arrested earlier this year? Dozens of federal agents with automatic weapons, armored vehicles, and a helicopter descended on his home in a middle-class part of Fort Lauderdale and rousted the 66-year-old and his wife from bed at rifle point.

And just to make sure the event inflicted maximum humiliation, the feds tipped off CNN, which was there to capture the whole thing live, which they did. That's how our government treated a man facing perjury charges. Now, Jeffrey Epstein, by contrast, was accused of molesting at least 34 separate underage girls. How was he arrested? Actually, that's a trick question. He wasn't arrested. According to the New York Times account, prosecutors called Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer and politely asked him to turn himself in, which Epstein politely did. Nobody tipped off CNN.

In fact, just the opposite happened. Authorities tried to keep the whole thing secret in order to preserve Jeffrey Epstein's dignity. One prosecutor wrote to Jeffrey Epstein's attorney, Jay Lefkowitz, assuring him that in order to "avoid the press" she could "file the charge in district court in Miami, which will hopefully cut the press coverage significantly."

Now, that's pretty thoughtful treatment for a child molester. Ultimately Epstein got a plea deal in which all federal charges against him were dropped, all of them. The arrangement was kept secret from Epstein's victims so they wouldn't be able to complain about it or contest that agreement in court. Epstein received just 18 months but instead of being sent to state prison like most sex offenders in Florida, he served his term in a private wing of the Palm Beach County stockade. That was a massive improvement over ordinary lockup.

But even that wasn't lenient enough for Jeffrey Epstein. After just three and a half months in custody Epstein was freed on work release. That means he was able to leave the grounds for 12 hours a day six days a week. Now, sex offenders are not by rule allowed to get work release. They're ineligible for it. But authorities gave it to Epstein anyway. Apparently, they liked him.

The authorities don't like Roger Stone. He did something worse than molesting children. He mocked the people in charge and then helped get Donald Trump elected president. For that Roger Stone is likely to die in prison. Just so you know the rules in this country.

Mayor Pete Buttigieg, a small city in the Midwest, is having a ton of success with affluent donors on Wall Street. African American voters don't like him, though, at least according to the numbers. He's trying to win them over. How's that going so far? The hilarious results after the break.

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Tucker Carlson: Wall Street liberals love Mayor Pete Buttigieg. So do our tech titans. He's leading the polls in Iowa, and he's surging in New Hampshire. But if he wants to become the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party, Buttigieg is going to have to expand the base as they say. He's going to have to win over African American voters, among others. So, he's trying. It's not going well.

Male Speaker: You will not [unintelligible] I doubt you will get it. Do you job just so you can have a moral compass when you leave his place.

Pete Buttigieg: Thank you so much.

Female Speaker: You keep saying "thank you.".

Pete Buttigieg: Thank you, your time is up.

Female Speaker: Get the people that are racist off the streets.

Female Speaker: You're running for president and you won't [unintelligible] to vote for you?

Pete Buttigieg: I'm not asking for your vote.

Female Speaker: You ain't going to get it neither.

Tucker Carlson: So, they're screaming at Pete Buttigieg, but he says, "Thank you. No, really. thank you for your question," which isn't really a question. It's more like a series of expletives, but it's a problem, is the bottom line. Obviously a problem. So, to fix this problem. Buttigieg has released a something called the Douglass Plan, as in Frederick Douglass, for achieving racial harmony of sorts. Well, the plan was illustrated with a photograph of a black woman and her child. The problem is the picture was of people in Kenya, not the United States. And then last week, Buttigieg released a list of 400 black South Carolinians he claims have endorsed him and his Douglass plan. The problem? A lot of the people on the list appear to be surprised that they're there, and in the most hilarious detail of the year so far, almost half of them are actually white. Mark Steyn is an author and columnist. He joins us.

I just couldn't resist this story, so I guess I don't really know what to say about it. What do you make of it, Marc Steyn?

Mark Steyn: Well, the whole Democrat theory of elections in the modern era is that if you put together the Rainbow Coalition and you bring them all together, they'll outvote all the racists on the Republican side, and often, their interests don't coincide. And the whole point about the Rainbow Coalition is you're actually trying to find a candidate who appeals to white liberals, and I think Democrats want somebody with identity politics points but of a moderate character. That's how Obama ran in 2008.

Tucker Carlson: But they're totally, because what this is, that candidates like this aren't actually trying to appeal to black churchgoers in South --

Mark Steyn: No.

Tucker Carlson: -- Carolina. Really, the group they're trying to appeal to is New Yorker subscribers is guilty by [talking simultaneously]

Mark Steyn: Right. And that's why he's surging. He's at, whatever it is, 25 percent in Iowa. And he's at 0 percent in South Carolina. You can't actually detect where 60 percent of the Democratic electorate is black. You can't find a voter. He's got less support than Marianne Williamson. I didn't even know she was still in the race until they took this poll. So what's fascinating is, though. So you look, what's the difference between 25 percent in Iowa and 0 percent in South Carolina?

And this New York Times columnist the other day wrote this long column saying that it's totally racist of white liberals to suggest that the lack of support for Mayor Pete in South Carolina is because of black homophobia. Now, I'd like, you know, I'm not I'm not a Democrat voter. So I don't have a dog in this fight.

But it does suggest that actually aligning all the identity politics points is quite tricky. They'd love someone who's -- they're not interested in Elizabeth Warren because every other country has had a female prime minister. A female president.

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Mark Steyn: Been there, done that. But they really would like to -- the first gay president does get white liberal juices going. Unfortunately, if he were to win Iowa and New Hampshire, he would then depress black turnout in the way that Hillary Clinton did in 2016 and cost Democrats the election.

  Tucker Carlson: See, I continue to believe the really controversial thing about Pete Buttigieg is that he was a McKinsey consultant. And I would argue that that's more morally offensive than anything else he's done by far.

Mark Steyn: Well, I quite like the fact that he's bought, the only other guy with this name that I've ever run across was from Malta. So, I quite like the idea of a Maltese American president. But the Maltese American parade down Fifth Avenue on Maltese American Day is actually one of the smallest identity objects, right? [speaking simultaneously]

Mark Steyn: Yeah. And Hillary's blaming her defeat on Maltese content farmers when she's had a couple of drinks and can't remember Macedonia.

Tucker Carlson: [laughs] So good. Mark Steyn, great to see you, as always. Thank you.

Mark Steyn: Thanks a lot, Tucker.

Tucker Carlson: Well, for years, Kanye West has gone by many names

Kanye West: and had them out there in the fields for seven years. He went crazy and when he gave it back to God God gave him his mind back and I feel very akin to that. Now, the greatest artist that God has ever exist -- created is now working for Him.

Tucker Carlson: What to make of all this? Well, Bob Woodson, founder of the Woodson center and a frequent guest on this show. We're always happy to have him, particularly tonight. Mr. Woodson, thanks so much for coming on.

Bob Woodson: Pleased to be here.

Tucker Carlson: Simple question. What do you make of this?

Bob Woodson: I think someone said that God doesn't always use the capable, he uses those who are called and he makes them capable.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Bob Woodson: And I think that's the case with Kanye West. Kanye is a broken person. He acknowledges the mistakes in his life, the missteps, but as a consequence he's come to Christ and Christ, if you look at the Bible it's just replete with people who are broken, but he uses them as witnesses to others that transformation and redemption are possible and that's why young blacks are flocking to him in droves. Several young blacks at that service said they had never been in a church before until they heard Kanye West and so I think he has a very important role to play in challenging the race grievance industry that is wreaking havoc in the black community.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Bob Woodson: And he's calling blacks to be self-responsible, to, as Dr. King said, reach down into your soul and sign your own emancipation proclamation and not wait for white people to liberate you and so his message is really resonating well in the community and like I said, it's a breath of fresh air for those of us who have been preaching for decades that the salvation of black America has to come internally and not externally.

Tucker Carlson: So, you said he -- we made a mistake in calling his album Jesus' or Jesus is King, of course. But this Christian evangelism you think is sincere, bottom line in his case?

Bob Woodson: Yeah, I think it's sincere but who questions anyone's motivation? I'm more concerned about the actions that someone takes, not what their motivation is. I mean, there are a lot of people who profess to be Christians and they're horrible.

Tucker Carlson: No, that's a very smart point.

Bob Woodson: You know? And so --

Tucker Carlson: What you care about I think is the New Testament says the fruits.

Bob Woodson: Exactly. Also, I believe if you look in the Bible Saul was one time an assassin of his own people.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Bob Woodson: And then he had a Damascus experience and he became Paul. But suppose every time he was speaking they said, “Oh I know you, you used to be Saul.” So, we have to accept Kanye as he is and the very fact that the young people in the inner city who know a phony when they see it are flocking to him because there's such a thirst for a redemptive spirit and a redemptive witness and Kanye is -- he admits to being in institution for mental problems. He acknowledged all of his broknenness.

Tucker Carlson: He doesn't hide anything.

Bob Woodson: He doesn't hide anything.

Tucker Carlson: That is compelling. Mr. Woodson, thank you so much. Bob Woodson joining us tonight.

Bob Woodson: And thank you, Tucker.

Tucker Carlson: Oh, of course. After six years we're getting new and kind of shocking information about another murder that one of the Boston marathon bombers may have participated in. Details ahead.

[commercial break]

Tucker Carlson: Well, there are new and honestly kind of shocking developments in the past of one of the Boston marathon bombers. Trace Gallagher is on the story for us tonight. Hey, Trace.

Trace Gallagher: Hey, Tucker, this information is all coming out now because Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is challenging his conviction and death sentence for his part in the Boston marathon bombing. Dzhokhar claims his violent and domineering older brother Tamerlan Tsarnaev is the one who pushed him into taking part in the attack. Tamerlan Tsarnaev died during a shootout with police a few days after the Boston bombing. We already knew Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his friend were suspects in a triple murder two years before the marathon bombing but newly unsealed documents show that a month after the Boston bombings Tsarnaev's friend Ibragim Todashev who was also killed by law enforcement, gave specific details about the triple homicide saying he and Tsarnaev bound, beat, and slit the throats of three young men in Waltham, Massachusetts. Todashev went on to say he and Tsarnaev spent more than an hour trying to clean up the scene but experts point out there were clear links between Tsarnaev and the murders that police overlooked, and instead they blamed them on gang activity, even though Tamerlan Tsarnaev was already a bright light on the FBI's radar. In fact, in 2011 Russia warned the FBI that Tsarnaev appeared to be radicalizing and former FBI director Robert Mueller also acknowledged that prior to the Boston bombing Tsarnaev came to the attention of the FBI on at least two occasions, but no action was taken so the new information about the triple murder begs the question again could the Boston bombings have been prevented. Tucker.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. If we'd only -- irony of ironies listened to Russia. Amazing.

Trace Gallagher: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: Trace Gallagher, thank you for that. Good to see you. We'll be back tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. The show that's the sworn and sincere enemy of lying pomposity, smugness, and group think. Good night from Washington. Prepare yourself. Sean Hannity, next.

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