'March' Madness

This is a partial transcript from "The O'Reilly Factor," October 17, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

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BILL O'REILLY, HOST: The top story tonight: two views on the marches in Toledo and Washington, D.C.. Joining us now, First Amendment attorney Martin Garbus. And from Washington, Malik Shabazz, national chairman of the New Black Panther Party.

Now, Malik, you've been on this program a number of times before. And I like you as a person. I don't agree with your separatism or any of that, but it troubles me that you at this Million Man March, whatever it was, person march — rally, got up there and made the accusation that the U.S. government blew up the levees.

I mean, come on. What are you basing that on?

MALIK SHABAZZ, NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY: Well, first of all, I think it's inappropriate for you to try to sell ratings through putting out what I consider to be racist garbage, and mischaracterizing a beautiful march where the most widest and diverse group of black leaders, ranging from Russell Simmons to Harry Belafonte, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Susan Taylor, to Louis Farrakhan, Conrad Worrill, and us participated.

There were 500,000 there. And we are filing — the Millions More movement is going to file a class action lawsuit against Homeland Security and FEMA and calling for an international investigation into what happened to the levees as well a congressional investigation.

So we laid out a plan for self-government at this march.

O'REILLY: Based on what? Based on what evidence that you would file a lawsuit which will be thrown out and I'll bet you $1,000 on that...

SHABAZZ: Based on the fact that every death and injury in New Orleans can be attributed to the negligence of the state government as well as FEMA and...

O'REILLY: What evidence do you have that somebody blew up the levees, Malik? What evidence do you have that somebody blew up the levees? Give me one piece of evidence.

SHABAZZ: Well, first of all, I said that the lawsuit was based on negligence and there is other evidence. As the levees were blown up in '65, Hurricane Camille, 1927 in New Orleans, we're just asking for a congressional investigation.

O'REILLY: No, no, no, you and Farrakhan made the accusation.

SHABAZZ: That's all we're asking for, is an investigation.

O'REILLY: You and Farrakhan made the accusations that the government blew up the levees. Give me one piece of evidence.

SHABAZZ: The mayor of New Orleans, the mayor of New Orleans...

O'REILLY: He didn't say it. He denies it. You know it. He didn't say it. He denies it.

SHABAZZ: Well, he told us to our face that there was a 25-foot crater blown underneath the levees. And you tell me what that means.

O'REILLY: Why is he denying it, then? Why is he denying it?

SHABAZZ: You ask him.

O'REILLY: All right. So you're going to believe a guy...

SHABAZZ: The mayor of New Orleans, and other information...

O'REILLY: Well, he's denying it, he's denying it now.

SHABAZZ: All we're asking for, sir, is an investigation. Are you afraid of an investigation?

O'REILLY: Not afraid of anything, but the government doesn't investigate based on nothing. You have got to present evidence. And you don't have any evidence. It's irresponsible.

SHABAZZ: Well, we're conducting our own evidence and we have other evidence of explosive residue beneath the levees...

O'REILLY: Explosive residue beneath the levees.

SHABAZZ: Residue beneath the levees, yes, Sir.

O'REILLY: All right. Can you send that to me or give me the name of the ballistics person who did that? Have you got the name of the ballistics person?

SHABAZZ: Well, we'll complete our investigation and let's take this to the halls of Congress and this will be a part of the lawsuit.

O'REILLY: All right. Can you give me the name of the ballistics person that analyzed the residue? Can you give me the name?

SHABAZZ: We will present our evidence in a court of law or at a congressional hearing, not to you or...

O'REILLY: All right. I'll take that as a no.

All right. Mr. Garbus, let's get the — let's get on to Toledo here. And I want to get your reaction, Malik, after Mr. Garbus talks. Look, you don't allow dopey Nazis to run around a neighborhood where children play on a weekend where people are relaxing and trying to get some freedom and let these people walk through. You give them an area away from housing, away from children and let them do their demonstration there, correct?

MARTIN GARBUS, FIRST AMENDMENT ATTORNEY: I think that unfortunately there's a question — it's like a dog who gets its first bite. I think if they went into this area again or tried to go into this area again, a court would stop it for exactly the reason that you said, that it turns out that it's not a safe place to be and it turns out it was an incendiary situation.

O'REILLY: Yes, incendiary, pardon the pun, we're looking at a building burning. But look, shouldn't these people know by now, an elected mayor, a police chief, that you don't allow the public to be threatened by any demonstration? This is insane, it's just crazy!

GARBUS: I think as soon as the mayor learned that there were gangs coming into the area, and he apparently had early warning of it, then one could have gone to a court and said, this is a case — this a situation that's going to blow up. It may have been correct, he may say, because we thought it would be peaceful, but clearly we're wrong, once he hears that people are coming in.

But the other thing I want to take issue with, you said about these gangs coming in wanting to start up trouble, I don't know what started it off. I presume that there was yelling on both sides. And I presume.

O'REILLY: Yes, there are 14 Nazis and thousands of these people and what does looting have to do with protesting the Nazis?

(CROSSTALK)

O'REILLY: Wait a minute, Malik, I'll get back to you. Go ahead.

GARBUS: I think there's a question about all that. It's clear also that in that area of Toledo there's is a good deal of tension between the local people. The area is....

O'REILLY: Are you justifying those actions?

GARBUS: No, no. The area is to some extent black, it's poor people...

O'REILLY: It's mixed.

GARBUS: ...It's Polish. it's Hungarian. And clearly they reacted to the accusations. Did they overreact? Sure they overreacted.

O'REILLY: Overreact? They committed crimes that had nothing to do with their hatred of the Nazis.

GARBUS: Well, I don't know about.

O'REILLY: Come on. This was ridiculous. It put — innocent people got hurt and it should have never happened. If stupid Nazis want to demonstrate then go on a field.

Now, Malik, I only have one question for you. Do you understand why the Nazis won in Toledo? Do you understand that those pictures of those rampages going out helped the Nazis, Sir?

SHABAZZ: I think that it helps us to understand that that city government and that state should have never allowed them to march in the black community and the blame belongs on the city for allowing them to march and others for provoking the people. And our young brothers and sisters who resisted the Ku Klux Klan (search) should not be condemned but they should be commended.

O'REILLY: All right. So it's OK with you any time there's a demonstration that we can go along and loot as well?

SHABAZZ: No, sir. No, sir. No, sir.

O'REILLY: All right.

SHABAZZ: But we cannot allow the Klan to march in a black community.

O'REILLY: Look, I agree with you that, I agree with you, that that was nuts for Toledo to allow that. They should have had them in a cornfield someplace.

GARBUS: Especially once they knew gangs were coming in.

SHABAZZ: Hey, Louis Farrakhan never said he would come on your show.

O'REILLY: I know, we're still wanting him to come on. And he's.

SHABAZZ: But you said that, and you falsely advertised that.

O'REILLY: No, I didn't, I didn't say he was coming on the show. Malik, you have got to get your facts straight, man. Work on the levee, first, then we'll deal with Farrakhan.

SHABAZZ: There was a half million at the Millions More Movement...

O'REILLY: Gentlemen, thanks very much. We appreciate it.

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