Kudlow: As pandemic goes away you'll see an economic rebound

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum," June 5, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Can get through anything. We can solve anything. 76 years ago, tomorrow, thousands of U.S. soldiers stormed the beaches of Normandy for D-Day. Remember, we can get through that. We can get through this. We're one day closer. The Story hosted by Martha MacCallum starts right now. Hey, Martha.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Such a great point, Bret. So true. Later tonight, we're going to speak to some of those heroes from Normandy. Good to see you tonight, Bret. Have a great weekend.

So tonight, across America, from New York to Minneapolis to Los Angeles, places where rioters defaced buildings and allowed businesses like these to be ransacked.


LUCY HOSLEY, DELI WORKER: You said, Black Lives Matter. Look, what you did to my store. No, we've been here all-night cleaning up, all night tweeting. And you tell me Black Lives Matter. You lied. You wanted to loot the store. You needed money. Get a job like I do.


MACCALLUM: That's Lucy Housley. All right. So, in all these places tonight, leaders are pushing plans to defund police departments and idea so radical that it was once only seen an ANTIFA manifestos. But tonight, the idea is on the lips of these leaders as well.

This is Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender. She says, yes, we are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety.

In Los Angeles, Mayor Garcetti would like to cut his budget for police by $150 million. But some researchers say that after these widely seen awful videos of police brutality surfaced, the pullback in policing that tends to follow as officers curb involvement is met with spikes in violent crime. So, the pullback in police, as we saw in Ferguson after the death of Michael Brown and in Baltimore after Freddie Gray died in police custody, the lack of the pullback in activity lead to an increase in crime and homicides.

Still as tensions run high across the country, videos like this add fuel to the anti-police sentiment. In Atlanta, this incident led to charges for these six officers. Two of them have now been fired. And then there is this footage of an officer pushing a man in the streets of Buffalo and it ended like that. Of course, that goes viral. It is horrifying to watch.

The firing of those officers has also led to some breaking news tonight. All 57 members of the Buffalo Police Department's emergency response team, just a short time ago resigned from that unit in protest.

Joining me now with reaction to all of this tonight, former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. Bernie, thank you very much for being here. Good to see you tonight. So, let's start at the top of what we discussed there. And I know you want to get to those two videos and talk about those. But just off the top, in terms of the headline, the effort in some of these cities that have seen some of the worst violence that we've seen to try to push for a lower expenditure on police in their cities, what do you think the result of that will be?

BERNIE KERIK, FORMER NYPD COMMISSIONER: Well, here's the one thing people have to realize, Martha, and you keyed on it. This is propaganda right out of the ANTIFA handbook. Right. Defund the police.

Well, I challenge any Minneapolis resident to take a ride through Minneapolis, which now looks like Beirut in 1970. Take a ride through it. Look at it. And that's with your police there. What's going to happen when they're not? Nobody wants to visit, live, go to school, or work in a place where they're not safe.

And most of these communities that have been shelled at this point, they can't keep their communities safe on a normal day. Last week, 82 shootings, 82 shootings in Chicago. 23 dead in 48 hours. What's going to happen when you defund the police? Who's going to protect the people of the city? Who is going to go out there and respond to the violence, the egregious violence that's going on in many of these cities? Who's going to do that? I don't know what they're thinking. It's irresponsible. It's dangerous. It's insane. That's what it is. It's insane.

MACCALLUM: So, before I get to those other two instances of police that were fired. I want to first show you something that I think is the other side of the equation of what we're talking about. And it's the belief on the part of a lot of young black men and their families that they put themselves in danger when they go outside, that they are too easily misperceived in terms of their role or what they're doing and that it can end badly for them. This just came out this afternoon. It's from members of the NFL football players. Just watch this and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Let's watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would it take?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For one of us to be murdered by police brutality.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if I was George Floyd?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if I was George Floyd?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was George Floyd.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you George Floyd.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am Breonna Taylor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am Ahmaud Arbery.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am Trayvon Martin.


MACCALLUM: What's your reaction to that?

KERIK: Martha, I'll take you back to 1989 at some point I had here. Well, I had here. But I had hair down the middle of my back. I had seven diamond earrings. I had a big goatee. And I was an undercover up in Harlem and probably two or three times a week while I was out trying to buy drugs and some of the most violent neighborhoods in the city, I've got stopped by the police. I've got stopped. I've got shaken down. I've got tossed. I've got yielded. I've got pushed because the police were out there trying to do their job.

I think people forget what it's like in many of these areas where these cops work. These cops don't go out looking to target black men. They go out because there's a map and, on that map, in those communities, you've got the highest murder rate. You've got the highest violent crime rate. You've got the highest burglary rate, the robbery rate. And that's why those cops were out there. And sometimes the wrong people get stopped. But at the end of the day, they do a job that nobody else would - they wouldn't have the courage to do.

Never in 100 years and they're out there criticized constantly as racist. And I can tell you, you know, the stats don't fit the argument.

MACCALLUM: Well, there's no doubt that there is a pervasive feeling in these young men and whether or not the stats meet it. The feeling is what we do know is there just based on what they're saying. But I want to put up this picture of these Atlanta police officers in this case where two college students were pulled out of a car and they have been suspended, all six of these. So, and there's a look at five of these men obviously are African American. One of them is white on the police force in Atlanta. What's your take on this case?

KERIK: Well, first of all, I saw the chief within hours after this event. She was disturbed by the incident. They hadn't even seen all of the video. They hadn't conducted a full investigation. That goes on around the country constantly. These chiefs are cowards. They respond to community outrage before they have any idea what really happened. I just think, you know, it puts every cop's life on the line when they do this. Why don't you conduct a real investigation? If you think it's criminal, put it before a grand jury. See if you can get a grand jury indictment? Do it right. Do it due process. Do it by the law? That's not what these chiefs are doing. They're scared to death to do their job.

MACCALLUM: Let's look at another piece of video, which is the pushing down of this man in Buffalo. And so tonight, as I mentioned, the two officers involved in that were suspended. And now tonight, the entire unit has resigned in protest. What do you know about that? Do you think we're going to see more of that?

KERIK: Well, here's what I know when you watch these videos. Listen, when a police officer tells you to move when there's a curfew, you move. When a police officer tells you to backup, you backup. The police officer. You're not supposed to stick your finger in his face. You're not supposed to touch him. You're not supposed to throw something on, and they've been bombarded with bricks, rocks, Molotov cocktails, sticks, you name it. And you know what, at some point in time, you're going to push the wrong cop. He's going to push back. And in this case, that's what happened.

MACCALLUM: We'll see where it goes. Bernard Kerik, thank you very much. Good to have you here.

KERIK: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: It's a complicated story and we appreciate you weighing in. Always good to see you, Bernie. Thank you very much. So, coming up tonight, President Trump said that the economy would bounce back, but nobody expected what we saw today. White House Economic Adviser Larry Kudlow, he's up next.



DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is outstanding what's happened today. Now, they thought the number would be a loss of 9 million jobs and it was a gain of almost 3 million jobs. We've been talking about the V. This is better than a V. This is a rocket ship. This is far better than a V. A V is wonderful. A V is this that we're talking about? Will it be a V? A U, an L? They had no idea.


MACCALLUM: Looks like a V. The U.S. economy added 2.5 million jobs last month. Employment dropped to 13.3 percent, down from 14.7 percent in April. They thought it was going to be up towards 20 percent when this report came out. It was a shock to the economists. They forecasted 8.3 million jobs would be lost. That none would be added. And they put employment, as I said, close to 20 percent. And that number is now down 13.3 percent.

This news, of course, was very music really to the ears on Wall Street. And the Dow was up at 27,000, up 3 percent. There's the S&P and the NASDAQ up 2 percent today. But some economists warn that a full recovery could still be years away. Even with May's rebound, the hole is deep. Part time workers accounted for two-fifths of the increase in employment and the number of unemployed is up 15.2 million since February before the virus kicked in. And all of this havoc was wreaked on the economy.

So, joining me now, Senior White House Economic Adviser Larry Kudlow. Larry, thank you very much for being here tonight. Good to see you.


MACCALLUM: Why such a strong surprise this one. Thank you. Why was this such a surprise today? Why do you think this happened? What are you looking at underneath these numbers?

KUDLOW: Well, you know, I think people underestimated the positive impact of openings of small businesses which began in earnest. I don't know, late April, early May. I think the bottom of this pandemic contraction was probably mid-April. So, you've got small businesses opening. About half of them, we're going to get the other half in the next jobs reports, about 80 percent now.

And secondly, I think they misunderstood how powerful the paycheck protection program is. About 500 billion in loans. Probably say 50 million jobs. So, what's going on is people who were temporarily laid off or furloughed have gone back to work. About 3 million of them, actually, which is close to that number. Private payrolls were up 3 million. In fact, household survey, which is where unemployment comes from, was up 3.8 million.

So, I think, again, open the economy, take advantage of these government programs, and let people go back to work. And I think that's what they're doing.

MACCALLUM: Seems like that has been a really good combination. Senator Schumer is concerned that it might mean that there's no more stimulus package. Here's what he said today.


SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I pray that Trump and the Republicans don't take this as a sign to be complacent, but there are many more problems coming up in the economy that we already need to face. And so far, they're sitting on their hands. This may make it. I hope it doesn't, but this may make it worse in terms of the ability to have them get something done.


MACCALLUM: So, he says there's an economy to fix. And so far, you guys are sitting on your hands. And he wants another package.

KUDLOW: Well, I don't think we're sitting - I don't think we're sitting on our hands. What we've done is take some time out after $3 trillion of rescue packages. OK. Some of which worked extremely well and was very, very necessary. Now we're taking stock of the economic situation. The virus has flattened and it's a downward curve. That's terrific. We need that very badly. There's a lot of heartbreak still in the unemployment ranks. I get that and we have more work to do.

But let's be smart. You know, if we go into another discussion, let's say after the July 4th weekend, let's think about long-term or medium to long- term growth incentives. You know, that's what got us a terrific Trump economy for three years and two months prior to the virus. And the President has talked about payroll tax holiday for the workforce. He's talked about capital gains tax cuts. He's talked about deductions for restaurants, entertainment, sporting events. He's talking about restricting COVID-19 liabilities.

So, small companies and restaurants and so forth can come back and not worry about frivolous lawsuits. In other words, let's take stock of this situation. There may be a bonus for going back to work. We'll have to look at that. This $600 unemployment benefit, which was way over the wage rate, needs to be reform. And we don't know this yet. How about a few more weeks, you know? And then maybe we'll have a better picture. I think the V recovery scenario is very much in place.

MACCALLUM: So, one of the areas of concern is, is the black unemployment number, and I know the President has been encouraged in the early years of his presidency that sort of all boats were lifting across all of the demographics in the country. But now you've got less than half of black adults in the country employed. How do you fix that?

KUDLOW: Well, look, first thing I want to say is African American employment went up 300,000 in this report for May. So that's a very big number. And I want to add to that the employment population ratio went way up. That means people are coming back into the labor force and we'll be looking for a job. So, that's very important too.

Now, we had up until this pandemic, the Trump administration had historically low unemployment rates for African Americans, for Hispanics, for a number of minority groups, for that matter, women, historically low. And I think the message there is, OK, let's grow the economy and create employment opportunities and every other kind of opportunity.

We've also had a full-fledged program of opportunity zones for new investments with big tax breaks and discouraged depressed areas around the country, including education reform, and including health care reform as part of the package. So, I think we've done a lot there. And as this pandemic goes away, like a hurricane goes away or a bad snowstorm goes away, I think you're going to see a rebound and we'll get back hopefully within a year or so. You'll see big numbers in the second half. Martha, you could get 20, 25 percent economic growth in the second half of this year. You're going to get big four, five, six percent growth next year. I'm looking at this as the glass is more than half full.

MACCALLUM: Well, it's good to be an optimist. We'll put you down for those numbers, Larry. And a very good report today that I think everybody in the country should feel good about. A little bit of good news in a period when we've had a lot of bad news. So, Larry, thank you. Good to see you tonight.

KUDLOW: Thank you. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, a controversial guide booklet on COVID-19 breaks down whether the lockdowns were actually a good idea and the hysteria that surrounded them in some cases. And tonight, it is on Amazon, but only after pressure on the tech giant and cries of censorship because they didn't want to sell this book at first. The author, Alex Berenson, here with an update. Next.



TRUMP: I don't why they continue to lockdown? Because if you look at Georgia, if you look at Florida, if you look at South Carolina, if you look at so many different places that have opened up, I don't want to name all of them. But the ones that are most energetic about opening, they are doing tremendous business. And this is what these numbers are all about.


MACCALLUM: President Trump continuing his push to reopen after the lockdowns across the country sent the economy into a tailspin. A topic that my next guest examines in a self-published e-book titled Unreported Truth about COVID-19 and Lockdown's with a controversial take on how virus deaths are counted and whether evidence proves that lockdowns helped to reduce the spread.

So, controversial that Amazon banned it from - banned selling it on the site initially. And then they caved to outside pressure from Elon Musk and others. Joining me now is Alex Berenson, former New York Times reporter and author of Unreported Truths about COVID-19 and Lockdowns. Alex, great to have you here. I'm glad that the booklet is now available, and I see that it's doing very well. So that situation was corrected.

But early on when you saw these models that were just bouncing all over the place, you determined to dig in and start actually doing some investigative reporting about these numbers and what was really happening. And I think jumping off of what the President just said there about the lockdowns, that's something that has really been on my mind. Is there evidence that the lockdowns were actually successful?

ALEX BERENSON, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER: So, this is a great question. Interestingly, I actually haven't addressed this yet in the book because the book was coming out in multiple parts because I wanted to get it out quickly. So, the first part is just the introduction. And, you know, and how we and discussing deaths and death counts and reporting deaths.

But the next part is going to be about lockdowns and this idea of whether or not they worked. And I think you ask a great question. There's very, very little evidence when you look on a state or national basis that the lockdown or international basis, that the lockdowns have proved effective. And in fact, Georgia, you know, which is the state, the large state that re-opened earliest, reopened in late April and really reopened by, you know, by mid-May.

Hospitalizations are down, deaths down. You know, new cases - see that people who want lockdowns focus on those metrics of cases. But a case is just a positive test. And many, many people who get this we now know are going to very mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. So, you have to look at really as hospitalizations and, in both Georgia, and Texas, it doesn't look like hospitalizations are up at all.

Now, people can always - the United States is a big country. Some state might have an anomaly. A couple states might have an anomaly. But if you look both in the U.S. and internationally, there's very little evidence that removing lockdowns has made any difference. And by the way, I am looking forward to talking about this with the next installment of this.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I would like to talk to you about it, too, because I think it's one of the big questions out there. One of the studies that you talk about is the fact that while, A, there's sunlight, which I think looks like it may be having a pretty positive impact on the virus. The other one that gets very little attention that you bring up in your writing is that there are some studies that suggest that 40 to 60 percent of the population was immune to begin with to this virus for some reason. Is that correct?

BERENSON: I don't want to overstate it. There is a paper in a very prestigious journal called Cell in May that suggested that people had T- cells, which are immune cells, that showed that - they essentially had some reactivity to the Coronavirus without being exposed to it. And the suggestion was that there are other Coronaviruses out there that are less dangerous than SARS-COV 2 and that those may have prepped people to have some immunity.

Now, we've had really big exposures on ships, for example, on aircraft carriers, not everyone develops the virus. It's not clear whether that number might be 50 or 60 or 70 percent who do eventually get infected. But there's some percentage that don't get infected. And that also reduces the fatality rate. So, you know, if the CDC says that one person in 400 who gets infected is likely to die, but only 50 percent of people are going to get infected then you have to reduce the fatality rate even further.

And so that's the kind of thing that is, you know, when I say these are unreported truth, it's not because I'm pulling them out of thin air. It's because places like the Centers for Disease Control have talked about them.


BERENSON: -- have talked about them and yet the media outside of Fox and a couple of other places don't talk about this stuff.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I know, I think that's why you've provide a great service. I'm almost out of time but I quickly want to get your reaction to this because I think this is a big deal.

You've got the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine both saying that they actually don't believe the study that showed hydroxychloroquine was not effective or even dangerous anymore because of the setup of the study that was in effect.

This is the quote from the Wall Street Journal op-ed on this. It said, "HCL should rise or fall as a treatment on its medical merits, not whether people think it vindicates or repudiates Donald J. Trump and keeps the politics out of medicine," which sounds like, you know, it sounds like a pretty good idea.

BERENSON: That -- I mean, that's absolutely true. So, I've stayed out of HCQ for this very reason. I don't practice medicine. I'm not a physician. Physicians have a really hard job. What I've tried to do both, you know, both before I publish this and since I publish this, look at the data that we get from, you know, hospitals. Look at the data that we are getting from, you know, from death, you know, from states that are reporting deaths, try to put that together, try to see if it says what the media is telling us.

And I just want to say one thing, I really am grateful to Fox. Because, you know, Tucker and others have been -- have helped me get the message out. And this book right now is number two on Amazon in both kindle and paperback, and that has something to do with you guys.

And there is an appetite for truth. People are aware that what other places in the media are telling them is a little bit hysterical and they want real numbers. And I hope I've tried -- I mean, I've tried to do that and you have really helped.

MACCALLUM: Well, we appreciate that, Alex. And you know, I think it says something about the hunger for information and facts on this story because I do think a lot of people have felt from the beginning that there was a lot of hysteria. And you know, the numbers are really what tell the story. And that is empowering, I think, for everybody.

Thank you. Good to see you tonight, Alex. Good to have you on.

BERENSON: Martha, thanks. Thanks for having me.

MACCALLUM: You bet. Breaking update, just moments ago on these two attorneys charged with firebombing a police vehicle. A judge has now decided whether to let them remain out of jail on bail or to bring them into custody. We've got a brand-new update on these two individuals, next.


MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, two attorneys accused in a Molotov cocktail attack on New York City police have just been taken into custody. The suspects were arrested Saturday after allegedly throwing a fire bomb at an empty police vehicle during protest in Brooklyn. They were ordered to go to home -- to home confinement until trial.

But tonight, the circuit court reversed the lower court's decision and U.S. Marshals have now taken them into custody.

Meanwhile, a live look at New York City tonight where demonstrations are underway once again as some local leaders ramp up calls to defund the New York Police Department. A curfew was set minutes from now. Already more than 2,000 have been arrested this week for violating the restriction.

Correspondent Bryan Llenas has been in Brooklyn and all over New York covering the story for us. And he joins us once again. Hi, Bryan.

BRYAN LLENAS, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Well, look, we have been following these protesters up and down Brooklyn. It is a few minutes before the 8 p.m. curfew. This is the fourth night in a row with that 8 p.m. curfew. They have been marching peacefully. It's really about the fact that there is systemic racism. George Floyd's name and Breonna Taylor's name had been mentioned.

But the real issue of confrontation right now has to do with this 8 p.m. curfew. The Manhattan D.A. Cy Vance says that those -- that his office will no longer be prosecuting people who have been arrested for unlawful assembly or disorderly conduct. He says that it really undermines the relationship between protesters and police which begs the question, why have an 8 p.m. curfew in the first place?

Protesters and activists have said that this curfew has created tensed situations with police that stifled their ability to have peaceful protest. For the NYPD this curfew has put them in an impossible situation. We have seen hundreds of arrests as they have enforced to follow the law and enforce the curfew.

Yesterday we were with protesters as the NYPD follow them throughout the Brooklyn, they gave them about a two-hour leeway. They didn't start really pushing and enforcing the curfew until about 10.30. So, you have a situation right now where you have NYPD officers who feel like, look, we're trying to do our best. We want to make sure we keep looters and those who are causing violence out of the crowd to please get off the streets.

And you've got protesters who are pointing to the mayor and saying, do your job. You've created a situation here that could be potentially volatile. These are nothing but peaceful protest but if you've got riot police confronting protesters in the streets even though they are peaceful, you are just going to create a bad situation.

So, this is all adds, Martha. The NYPD commissioner has really called for a de-escalation and anti-police rhetoric. He even yesterday said look, we're human too -- he's talking about the police -- we have blood and tears and we're trying to protect your right to protest and to really honor (AUDIO GAP) for George Floyd. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Well put. Bryan Llenas, thank you very much. We'll keep an eye on New York City tonight as the curfew nears, about 20 minutes away. Deroy Murdock and Richard Fowler on race relations in America coming up.

And this, the newly minted black lives matter plaza in Washington, D.C., next.


MACCALLUM: After a week of tumultuous demonstrations, Washington, D.C., Mayor Muriel Bowser has renamed a section of the road leading to the White House black lives matter plaza. The city also commissioned artist to paint a mural reading black lives matter on the same ground that protesters occupied ahead of President Trump's controversial visit to St. John's earlier this week.

White House -- Fox News White House news correspondent Kevin Corke is on the story in a rainy Washington, D.C., tonight. Hi, Kevin.

KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good to be with you, Martha. Rainy, indeed. The weather continued to be the major story line here as Mark and I walk along here to show you where we are. We're just about two blocks from Lafayette Park which as you know has been shut off to regular traffic.

We do have plenty of pedestrian traffic out here. You can probably see the letters in the yellow right there despite the fact that we have had heavy, heavy rainfall. We do have still some people out here. Earlier today, we saw 16 streets transformed with those letters that you see, that yellow writing there. Those are the words 'black lives matter.'

We also in fact saw a sign erected just above your usual 16th Street sign. You see that right one there, Mark, you can see it. It says right there, black lives matter, that order from Mayor Muriel Bowser. The mayor has also called for the removal of out-of-state National Guardsmen here sent to the city to help protect it in the wake of last weekend's violence.

That, as you can imagine is drawing sharp criticism from President Trump who not too long ago, Martha, just had this tweet, Mayor Bowser, he writes, is grossly incompetent and in no way qualified to be running an important city like Washington, D.C. If the great men and women of the National Guard didn't step forward, she would look no better than her counterpart mayor in Minneapolis.

And speaking of the violence that hit Washington, D.C., of course we were right on the scene when that fire hit St. John's church. Tonight, there is a reward leading to information that could lead to the arrest of the person who set the blaze.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives today announcing a $10,000 reward leading to that information.

Back out here live as you see, Martha, still some folks not nearly as many as we saw when the weather was holding. We'll see how things turn out tonight, but for now, back to you.

MACCALLUM: Rain is inconvenient for these situations. Thank you very much. Thanks, Kevin.

So, joining me now, Deroy Murdock, National Review Online contributing editor, and Richard Fowler, nationally syndicated radio talk show host. Both are Fox News contributors.

So, let's start with that. It's interesting, Richard, the renaming or the naming of that plaza. I remember the other night, actually, I saw someone climb up and ripped down a street sign in that vicinity. I don't know if it was exactly on that pole but now it's been replaced by the black lives matter plaza. Is that -- is that -- is that meaningful to you?

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Listen, I'm happy that this mayor made one step in the right direction and then as my mayor. When I read the president's tweet, I was very offended and he thought that D.C. couldn't determine who should lead our great city.

But beyond that point I think we need to more actions from every elected leader, not only Mayor Bowser but every elected leader across this country saying how do we work to ensure that police treat everybody fair and equitable when they pulled them over, when they see them in the streets. And how we build a community where people see each other as people and we end some of the racism that has got us to this particular point where we are right now.

MACCALLUM: What do you think, Deroy?

DEROY MURDOCK, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think this is just virtuous signaling, it's very symbolic. It would make a lot more sense if the mayor had gone to the president and said, Mr. President, I propose the following. I would like to bring to Washington, D.C. the mayors and police chiefs of the top 10 or top 15 cities around the country and sit-in in the East Room at the White House, have a big round table discussion and with the president there, the mayor of Washington, D.C., these mayors and police chiefs discuss what works, what doesn't work and how we can go forward from here, what the mayors and police chief ought to do, what the federal government ought to do, if anything.

That will be productive, I think there's a real thirst for that sort of thing. And that will get us forward somewhere. I think putting up a street sign doesn't accomplish very much other than a couple of few minutes of virtuous signaling on her part.

MACCALLUM: It's interesting, you know, just watching --


FOWLER: But let me, allow me to say this, Martha, to that particular --

MACCALLUM: Go ahead. Go ahead, Richard.

FOWLER: I will say this, I tend to agree that yes, there could have been other things that could have been done by the mayor and by others. But I just -- so what's the point of sitting down with the president at this rate? I think, I mean, we've seen folks tried to sit down with him and reason with him before on what type of policy changes need to be done in this country. And his response has been nothing. So, what's the point? What's to gain?

MURDOCK: I think part of that nothing is the criminal justice reform bill, the FIRST STEP Act which he signed. Obama and Biden did absolutely nothing about mass incarceration except keep it going for eight years and Donald J. Trump actually signed the bill which black lives matter wanted, a lot of activist on the left wanted and through bipartisan vote of both Houses of Congress, that piece of legislation was signed.


MURDOCK: And it's enforced now. A lot of people who were nonviolent offenders who were locked up for a long time are now back in society. That was part of nothing with Donald J. Trump did on this issue.

FOWLER: Listen, I'm not knocking the -- I'm not knocking the piece of legislation. I think it's a good first step, which is the name of it. But let's be real. We're talking about deeply rooted, systematic racism that gets to the cases like George Floyd.

A move in Congress or an act of Congress isn't going to change that. America needs to look itself in the mirror and say how do we deal with systemic racism that's been in this country for far too long?

MACCALLUM: Well, I want to get your thoughts on something else, because you know, when I think about -- about black lives mattering, I think about the homicide rate in some of our urban areas, in Chicago, and I think about Captain David Dorn who was murdered in a punch up the other night.

And it bothers me that he does not get the attention that the other victims of homicide don't get the attention. Because 89 percent of the homicides that occurred in 2015 and the latest numbers that we have, 89 percent were black victims at the hands of black perpetrators.

And I know that Richard's -- we lost Richard's signal, but, Deroy, can you speak to that?

MURDOCK: Absolutely. Look, this is a huge problem and if we somehow focused and got the entire country working on the issue of getting the root of the problem of unarmed black men and women falling victim to police, out-of- control cops and dying, a grand total of 10 such cases last year, by the way.

We still have thousands and thousands, I think it's the numbers, about 5,000 or more black folks who were killed by other black people. This will remain a problem whether or not we fix the problem of excessive police -- policing -- police brutality and excessive force, that sort of thing.

And yet, if you bring up that issue people say you're racist or bigoted. A couple of weeks ago before the George Floyd atrocity, I believe you had 30 shootings in Chicago with 10 fatalities. Almost all of them black people in black neighborhoods and nobody wants to talk about that.

And to bring it up, you know, it's a racist thing. Well, you know, if we can do something to get those numbers down and let those people enjoy their lives with their families, their loved ones and go to work and go to school, enjoy Christmas, that would be a good thing.


MURDOCK: And so, let's spend some of our time, at least a little bit of our time focused on that big problem.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I agree. I saw evil and the police officer who killed George Floyd and I see evil on the people who strike down these individuals in our cities across America.

MURDOCK: Absolutely.

MACCALLUM: And I think, you know, it has to be recognized. Thank you very much, Deroy Murdock and Richard Fowler who we lost. We'll get him back next time.

Coming up, a tribute to the World War I -- World War II heroes who fought on D-Day 76 years ago. Stick around for this, very special, coming up next.


MACCALLUM: Tomorrow marks 76 years since D-Day. One year ago, we had the great honor of being in Normandy and meeting some of the heroes who stormed the beaches there. But this year the pandemic has change things so we caught with many of those men virtually and their messages were nothing short of inspiring. Watch.


TOM RICE, 91-YEAR-OLD WWII PARATROOPER: My body was in one place, my mind was in another place. I didn't get them both together until I left the aircraft. That was a beautiful fall at about 128 miles an hour. And it was a little cold, too.

MACCALLUM: Talk to me about the first time that you made that jump and did you think about that at all as you are heading up there today?

RICE: This is one of the closures for that jump, and I'm going to keep on going as long as I'm --


MACCALLUM: Keep on going.

RICE: Yes. I'm not a dead -- I'm not a dead man walking yet.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Not. Far from it, far from it.

RICE: The meaning of D-Day today was that we came at a very difficult time, not as thieves in the night but for the most part rescuers or helpers or those who we can give aid in the form of returning you to your life, your liberty.

JACK GUTMAN, WWII NAVY CORPSMAN: Emotion took over, and I kept thinking in my heart beats, but there are some men out there that I actually took care of and I saw die on the beach, and I kept hearing the pleading and everything like that, and it just overtook me and I just kind of broke down.

But I said, when I get there, I'm going to salute them, pray for them, and I cried. I had to cry. But I did all of those things that I promised I would do. They will never be forgotten as long as Jack Gutman is alive.

Is it worth it? I would tell you this from the bottom of my heart, you young people, I've watched you and my children, see what you have done and I say this, we served one of the greatest countries in the world, the United States of America.

DANIEL BANANZIO, WWII ARMY VETERAN: When you are young, boy, you don't think of nothing. You go. Go, go, go. When we got home, there was a beautiful church still standing, and it had parachutes all over it, but no people in it. I always talk about that church.

ERNIE ANDRUS, WWII VETERAN RUNNING ACROSS THE U.S.: It was very sad but it was necessary. And it means at the end of the war, it's eventually be coming.

As far as we were concerned, save the world from changes. And so D-Day is very, very important to me on that basis.

WALTER LAMBERT, WWII NAVY VETERAN: And of course, you have to remember all the sailors and soldiers that died there. It was amazing, that the courage they showed and kept on going.

PAUL BOTTOMS, WWII VETERAN: Thirty war veterans, love, live, and be happy for each day. God bless America bless America.

GUY WHIDDEN, 96-YEAR-OLD WWII VETERAN: Be proud of yourselves for displaying true grit, toughness, prayerfulness, bravery, and hope. May God bless America.

EARNEST ROBERTS, D-DAY SURVIVOR: We've been through stuff like this before but we'll come out again on top and shine like a diamond ring. So, just give us time and prayer, and we will come ahead.



MACCALLUM: We cannot let these men down after what they did for us. Have courage, people. That is The Story of Friday, June 5th, 2020. Go forward, have a great weekend. Good night, everybody. I will see you on Monday night.

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