Kavanaugh accused: Where does the burden of proof lie?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," September 18, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Watters along with Dr. Nicole Saphier, Juan Williams, Dana Perino, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."

A major senate showdown over if America will hear from both Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh and his accuser, Senate Republicans setting a hearing for next Monday. The Democrats are making new demands. They now want more time, more witnesses to testify, and for the FBI to investigate the 36-year-old allegation. President Trump reacting to it all earlier.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You don't wait until the hearing is over and all of a sudden bring it up. When Senator Feinstein sat with Judge Kavanaugh for a long period of time. A long, long meeting. She had this letter. Why didn't she bring it up? Why didn't she bring it up then? Why didn't the Democrats bring it up then? Because they obstruct and because they resist. That's the name of their campaign against me. They're lousy on policy and, in many ways, they're lousy politicians but they're very good on obstruction. We should go to a process because there shouldn't even be a little doubt.


WATTERS: And lawmakers are trading blows over how this process is playing out.


SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MITCH MCCONNELL, R-KY.: It is still disturbing however to think about the way in which this has developed right at the end. And it's pretty obvious this is all about delaying the process.

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO, D-HAWAII: We cannot continue the victimization and the smearing of someone like Dr. Ford. And you know what? She's under no obligation to participate.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN, R-TEXAS: We wouldn't find ourselves, nor would the -- Dr. Ford find herself in a situation if Senator Feinstein hadn't sat on this letter she's had since July.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, D-CONN.: I think the nomination should be withdrawn. He has raised serious doubts about his credibility.


WATTERS: Well, so far, Republicans say lawyers for Christine Blasey Ford have not responded to their invitation for her to testify. And Mark Judge, the other person alleged to be in the room, says he doesn't remember the incident or the party and will not testify. OK. So before we get into the political stuff, I want to ask the doctor a question. And Dr. Gutfeld brought this up yesterday about the memory situation. So tell me what you think about this as a licensed professional. She doesn't really recall how she got to the party. She doesn't recall the house that the party was thrown in, and she doesn't recall how she got home from the party. She's a little fuzzy about the people that were there at the time and there is some discrepancy with the notes that her therapist took. And she admits that she was drinking. With that said, she believes, and I believe, she believes that something happened that night, but what role does memory play in the passage of time with an allegation this serious?

NICOLE SAPHIER, GUEST CO-HOST: It's a great question. And let's be clear, I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrists, or involved in this case, whatsoever. That's my medical disclaimer. However, it is a well-known fact that people, when something dramatic happens to them or something that happened a long time ago, when you're in your doctor's room and they deliver some news that the moment you leave you don't necessarily remember the details. You don't remember the facts. Add -- not fully formed frontal lobe, and alcohol, and then add 36 years to that, and obviously details can get muddied a little bit. Do I believe something happened to Dr. Ford in her adolescence? Absolutely. I don't think anybody is ready to deny that whatsoever.

But I do think it's interesting that the party of Bill Clinton and Keith Ellison are trying to lecture America that we need to have a potentially politically motivated allegation should derail an entire process here. And I have concerns about that because we want to ask questions, get answers, but she doesn't have the answers. And so, it's going to go into a he said- she said.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Here's the problem though, so she said she can't remember some of the details that Jesse rightly laid out. But he says -- of a party that nobody remembers the details. That he wasn't there. Well, that's not logical. Wait a second. So nobody knows exactly where the party took place and you don't remember being there. Well, how could you -- wait, that didn't make sense.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Juan, that's the trick. You can't blame - - if you say, you did this to me. I can't tell you when or where because then if I do, you might be able to say I wasn't there and that wasn't me, so you leave that intentionally vague, right?

WILLIAMS: I would think that -- I would say that never happened.

WATTERS: But he did say that.

WILLIAMS: No. But he also said I wasn't there. That was the problem in my mind.

WATTERS: That's why he knows he wasn't there because it didn't happened.

WILLIAMS: But I would say that the other point is that, you know, having watched this before in my life, I just think it's proper to say that it's very difficult, given what Dr. Saphier is saying about memory. Very difficult for people who had been traumatized and hurt then to come forward in the first place and know they're going to be pilloried. She's in the arena right now. You could not be more at the mountaintop with arrows flying from every direction.

GUTFELD: But there's a difference between skepticism and pilloried. Everybody can go on social media and condemn something. People can go on social media and question something. And I think that -- like -- even like Senator Blumenthal, he should know better about the fallibility of memory. This is a guy who, sincerely, I will give him that, believes he went to Vietnam. But he actually didn't go. We changed our memories. I said it yesterday, our memory is Playdoh. But I will say this to your point, that goes both ways. Her memory has gaps, and so could his. So that's why something has to be reported when it happens. This is the problem. You can't -- relying on something that happened three and a half decades ago, in the court of public opinion means ever single human being on this planet is vulnerable to this thing.

WATTERS: And the Democrats, Dana, say they want the FBI to go back and investigate this, but the FBI has said this isn't really something we do. This is something a local law enforcement would do. What's the play here next?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, and actually if you want to learn a little bit more about the FBI piece, Kim Strassel of the Wall Street Journal did a series of tweets today explaining the FBI's jurisdiction, it's role, and how it does background checks. There some six of them on Brett Kavanaugh in the last 15 years.


PERINO: Not ever come up before. This is not a jurisdictional issue for them. It would have been local law enforcement. The Democrats would say the FBI needs to reopen it. And then the FBI -- what would be -- what would we do? So now you have a situation where the senators have said, on the Republican side, will have another hearing. We'll do it Monday. We'll do it quickly because Brett Kavanaugh says I'm anxious to clear my name. They still haven't heard from Dr. Ford's lawyers or from her as to whether she will show. The senators also said you don't have to do an open hearing. We can do it as a closed session. So you won't have to worry about, you know, this idea that you're going to be paraded around and there will be some kind of a circus. And I'm curious about one thig, Senator Hirono, the Democrat from Hawaii, she said that Dr. Ford is under no obligation to prove anything. She doesn't have to say anything. Well, why then is the burden of proof on Brett Kavanaugh? And if it is on him, then let him testify. And if she doesn't come, I think that they do what they can to try to get the information. And if the Democrats decide that they're going to vote against him, which they've already said they were going to, call the vote.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, Orrin Hatch says he doesn't believe her. I mean, I think that's premature. But I do think that in most cases like this, and so, let's try to step away from the politics for a second. If there was such an incident, an assault, typically you would have somebody from the local police, special victims, go in there and try to figure out what actually took place.


WILLIAMS: So in this situation, I think it cries out, given all the political static in the air, for somebody to say here's what we were able to discern by talking to people, talking -- it's just.

PERINO: Well, that's what a hearing, closed or open. WILLIAMS: Oh, no, not the FBI. I meant like some law enforcement people.

WATTERS: But what would they say 36 years ago? Who would they speak to.


WATTERS: . besides the two people who are allegedly there.

PERINO: They don't even know the year that the party was supposed.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I thought they did know the year because she was 15 and he was 17.

PERINO: No, they're iffy on the year.

WATTERS: If it was a local law enforcement issue, the statute of limitations have way expired, so I don't even think -- you could even prosecute a crime if there were a crime in this party.

WILLIAMS: But it's not about prosecution.

WATTERS: Right. But I'm saying, if you were to even look at it in that way.

SAPHIER: This will say a guilty until proven innocent precedent if this successfully derails the nomination.

PERINO: That's what she said. When Senator Hirano says that the accuser is under no obligation and we are to just -- OK, then what are we supposed to do? Just to say OK? Well, there's an accusation with -- that something happened but we don't know all of these details, and therefore no one is allowed to ever go forward?

SAPHIER: You can't prove or disprove it. It's just out there now.

PERINO: Yeah. And Jonathan Turley said that the tie goes to the accuser. So, if it's he said-she said, that the tie goes to the accuser. Is that the new standard?

GUTFELD: This is -- there's a certain kind of public display going on where people are saying if it's he said-she said, it must always be she said. If that's the case then we don't really need to have courts anymore. We can just do a priority of innocence on what group is more innocent than the other and get rid of courts. This is about winning for a party at any cost. And the cost is perhaps ruining a life. I saw a headline. I won't say where it's from. The headline was this, are Republicans really going to nominate an accused rapist to overturn roe? OK. So, think about -- I would ask the people on both sides, imagine if this was your son, dad, or brother, we often think about, you know, victims, but would you characterize this as fair without -- with the knowledge that we have right now? Is it fair to characterize somebody that way if that is your husband, your brother, your son, or your father? And I think sometimes -- well, all the time in politics, we don't think that way, and we will ruin somebody's life just so we can get somebody on the court.

SAPHIER: In the me too era this has become a little bit more common than we've seen in the past.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. I was going to say I agree with you that, to me, though, the thing about it is, you know, historically, women say, you know, men, you don't get it. You don't hear us. You don't listen to us, right?

SAPHIER: That's true.

WILLIAMS: And then you get this cultural surge. I saw it with Anita Hill and I'm seeing it again. Now it's a different era. But, it's again, do we as men listen? Do we hear? And it's very difficult because this is about -- you says it's just about one side winning. I think, by the way, you could reverse it that Republicans just want to get this out of the way and have the majority.

SAPHIER: But how can you hear if they're not willing to come and talk?

WILLIAMS: Well, that's the question. You raise an important point today. Is she willing to testify? We thought she was. Now her attorney won't say.

GUTFELD: And also -- just because you're skeptical does not mean you're not listening.


GUTFELD: You may be really listening. Listening as much as possible because I've said this before, I believe something happened but I believe memories is having an effect, either with him or with her.

WATTERS: The whole world is going to be listening on Monday because it's going to be one for the history books. President Trump saying what we called the witch hunt will be exposed by the classifying key Russia documents. You'll hear from him personally, next.



TRUMP: I want total transparency. This is a witch hunt. Republicans are seeing it. The Democrats know it's a witch hunt too, but they don't want to admit it because that's not good politics for them. But it's a terrible witch hunt and it's hurt our country. And they'll be things that have been found over the last couple of weeks about text messages back and forth are a disgrace to our nation.


WILLIAMS: President Trump defending his decision to declassify key FISA court documents and text messages connected to the Russia probe. The move is being praise by the president's allies, but Democrats say it could create national security risks.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It's laughable that they're saying this is going to somehow endanger national security. You've heard me say this and other say this. This is really full transparency for the American people.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: In a process, important sources, and important precedent of protecting those sources may be violated by this president who cares little about the national security.


WILLIAMS: So that you know, it's not clear to us yet when exactly these documents will be released or how they will be released. But release, apparently, they will be, Dana.

PERINO: Yeah. And there's about -- this is something that the president has the power to do. He can declassify anything in at a moment notice. But there is a responsible way to declassify things and that is to have the process, as you can see behind us on the big board there. There's -- if you need to protect somebody's identity that is not involved then -- that is should be protected. You can cross out their name and have it redacted. There's four basic areas that they're looking for. One would be the FISA court and what was used to go to the FISA court. Was it accurate? So you might find out more about it there. You also get to know about the renewal application because with FISA, every 90 days, you have to go back and you have prove to the court I need this to continue because the activity I'm concerned about it is ongoing, so that's why it gets renewed. There's also the Page and Strzok text messages. There's more where that came from. But I'm really interested in the piece about Bruce Ohr. Bruce Ohr was meeting with -- excuse me, I can't remember Steele's first name.

GUTFELD: Christopher.

PERINO: Christopher Steele. Thank you. Not the other one that used to be the RNC chairman. He was talking to -- Bruce Ohr was talking to Christopher Steele who was decommissioned at that point. And so, as I understand it, he was operating outside of his lane and meeting with somebody that the FBI had decommissioned. And now, why would you do that? Is that inappropriate? He has his own investigation ongoing. Remember also that in midst of all this, there is -- the Department of Justice inspector general report that is ongoing that will answer a lot of these questions. So, in some ways, the president is -- I understand he's chopping at the bit. He wants to get this out there. He wants to clear his name. This is getting a little bit ahead of that process. The Democrats are complaining it's not complete and that it could be dangerous. But I think that the FBI and DOJ will be very careful about protecting people's identity.

WILLIAMS: So, Jesse, what you're hearing from people like Mark Warner, senate intelligence committee, a Democrat, is that the president is essentially using his power to pursue a political vendetta against this Russia probe and Robert Mueller and the intelligence agency.

WATTERS: I mean, I think he's counteracting a political vendetta against himself and his campaign. I just want to take a moment. Dana Perino, that was such an articulate and thoughtful analysis of the deep state. And usually, you know, I can, kind of.

GUTFELD: Deep state.

WATTERS: . hear you rolling your eyes when I get into the Nellie Ohr and the Bruce Ohr and the Steele that -- what a great synopsis.


WATTERS: You've finally come around.

PERINO: You can actually be thoughtful and not to like resort to name- calling of the oldest civil service as the deep state.

WATTERS: OK. Well, I'll start calling some names then. Look, this was -- this was a big abuse of power. And.


WATTERS: The fact that they spied unconstitutionally on an American. And then this narrative gets out -- this narrative gets out that there was this big collusion and now you have a special counsel. It's incredibly frustrating. What they did was they paid a guy to go to anonymous Russian intelligence sources and whisper things into Steele, and then he gives it to Bruce Ohr and then it trickles up, and then they all of a sudden slap a FISA warrant on an innocent American and listen to his phone calls and look at his emails for one full year. At the end of the year, there has never been a charge levied against Carter Page. They found nothing. And they have been trying to cover their tracks for this last year and a half because they know this never would have come out if Hillary Clinton were elected. That was the game plan. They should have given the Trump campaign, if they really cared about Russian interference, a defensive briefing in the spring but instead they spied on them. A lot of these spies were western intelligence officials. Hillary Clinton connected donors. The whole thing reeks. And I'm happy the president is being transparent it. I just feel bad for the I.G. He really wanted this report to get out there beforehand.

WILLIAMS: And before hurricane Dana blows over this way. I want to do to you doc.

PERINO: I'm all smiles.

WILLIAMS: Your smiles now. Good. Doctor, so, Peter King, a congressman from New York says that the president here wants to reveal that there was no basis for the FISA warrant itself. No basis at all. And I'm thinking to myself, so now you're going after the FISA judges because the judges approved this repeatedly. What do you think?

SAPHIER: So, as the average American is going to agree with me because, you know, I am not a political pundit or an expert in any of this. But what I see here, kind of from a bird's-eye view, is that there is concern over, as Jesse was saying, spying on an American. Carter Page, specifically. That is something I have a concern about. So I want to know was it just political opposition motivation that has caused our DOJ to spy on Americans? I'm also concerned with the text messages where the one that said it's like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before your 40 talking about if Trump were to gain presidency. As an average American, I want to know what they're talking about. Is there some behind the scenes moved to undermine our current administration? And I'm not going to able to do much if these FISA documents are released. I'll look at them and hand them over to Dana Perino and that she can interpret them and tell me what they mean. But that's what it is. At least I know that there's going to be some transparency. I don't think that we're going to be putting America in danger. I think they will keep names and anything that really needs to remain classified, classified.

WILLIAMS: So now we go to an above average American, Greg Gutfeld.

GUTFELD: Not by height. Wouldn't it be awesome if we found out after all this stuff was release that Carter Page, actually, was like a super awesome deadly assassin? Was like the most -- because like he's such a dork. I know him. He's a nice guy. What would happened if it turned out he really, really was -- but you know it's not. It's kind of unfair. How long can you spy on somebody without charging them. It's a good question. And this has to be the first time in my life that I've seen journalists not wanting access to information. I mean, they used to love leaks and memos and national security be damn. And now -- now, they're all of a sudden, they're worried about, oh, the danger, the danger. And to Trump's credit, he's the Pyrex POTUS. You know you could see right through him. This is a window paint White House. Most transparent president in the history of history from the past to the future. The press should love that. You know, he's like your neighbor who never draws his curtains. Sometimes.

PERINO: I have one of those.

GUTFELD: Yeah. I do, too, believe me. Sometimes he wished he would, but they.


WATTERS: I think I have one of those.


GUTFELD: I want to change my name to redacted. Wouldn't that be great?

WATTERS: I like that.


GUTFELD: From now on I want to be known as redacted.



GUTFELD: No, we can't go. You're telling me they're yelling at me as though I talk too much.

WILLIAMS: Well, anyways, my worry about the Pyrex is that -- you know when I put hot water in it, I think it's going to boil over and burned me. And I think that's a little bit of what's happening here with this revelation. A new study reveals the negative word most used by the media when covering President Trump. Gregory fills you in next on The Five.


GUTFELD: Love that.

It's true: The press thinks Donald Trump is stark raving mad. The Media Research Center counted the words reporters used to describe Trump and found he was "angry" 23 times, "furious" 17 times, "outraged" 8 times. He was also "venting," "infuriated," "livid," "erupting," "lashing out," "on a tirade." The good news? No "spontaneous combustion." That's for after the midterms.

So why all this language? Well, it's to make you think the guy with a finger on that famous button is bonkers. Absent any harmful deeds by Trump and faced with blooming optimism about America's direction, the media is like a pack of cats looking for a sack: Out to create a story that fits their own infuriated furious eye bulging narrative. So they traffic in workplace rumors, the stuff that exists in all offices since the beginning of cubicles. Heck, even Jesus dressed down his apostles.

But we get it: Trump's no Jimmy Carter. Thank God. I mean, who'd you rather have? A nice guy mocked by the world or a loudmouth who keeps the world guessing and therefore cooperating.

Now Trump is bombastic but most bosses are. They use their voice like an instrument, as a call to action to wake up the slackers, to get the team to do actual work. That voice isn't there to soothe the concerned or troubled souls in the media. And it's always about the media. They're like ignored teens. And they just hate the new guy who's making them work for their shrinks and drinks. They need someone who makes them feel important by echoing their phony virtues. After Obama, the media got so flabby, they should thank Trump: He's the one who put them on a pressroom diet where they eat nothing but their own words.


GUTFELD: Anyway.

SAPHIER: Very nice.

GUTFELD: Let's just go to break.


GUTFELD: I'm kidding. I'm joking. Dana, you made this point earlier that when they talked about -- when President Obama would get mad they describe -- or described him as fiery.

PERINO: But it was always.

GUTFELD: Good thing.

PERINO: But fiery as a complement.


PERINO: So the thing is with President Trump, he's not boring.


PERINO: OK. And you know, and the media, you have to figure out a way to make something interesting, exciting, why would somebody click on that? Why would somebody buy that? So with President Trump they reuse all the ones that they use. For President Obama, if he was fiery that was like a good thing because he was finally going to get out there and he was going to show those Republicans.

If he was frustrated, that was because Republicans were obstructionists.


PERINO: And if he was, the worst thing ever said about him is that he was testy or he was irritated.


PERINO: And those things -- that was, like, the worst they ever said about him.

GUTFELD: Well, actually, the birth certificate thing was pretty bad.

Jesse. This is my favorite.

WATTERS: I never said anything about the birth --

GUTFELD: This is my favorite.

PERINO: I didn't either.

GUTFELD: I know. It was just a joke.

SAPHIER: It took me a minute.

GUTFELD: All right. They said the president, lashing out. He was lashing out 53 times over six months. That's almost, I can't do math. But a lot.

WATTERS: That's a lot. I mean, listen, if the media was calling me a racist, mentally-ill colluder, and they were raiding -- raiding my lawyer's offices, I'd be lashing out a lot, too.

But I don't really believe it, because I don't think these networks have the type of sources that would actually tell you what the president's mindset is in tat inner sanctum in the Oval Office. I remember when -- I don't, but I look back at when Bill Clinton was under investigation by a special counsel. The press called him resilient. Energized, invigorated. Strategizing. Passionate. I mean, it's like it really tells you more the adjectives that they use about the media then about the person they're describing.

For instance, the media calls me smarmy, sarcastic, all kinds of awful things. But if you look, when nonpartisan, real fair and balanced media describe me, they say I'm handsome, insightful, funny. It really just depends on where it's coming from.

GUTFELD: Exactly. But your mom actually said those other things.

WATTERS: My mom.

GUTFELD: It's true. It is true, what Jesse is saying. Juan, if they follow me around, they could sell that I yell constantly.

PERINO: Grumpy.

GUTFELD: And that I'm grumpy all the time. That I sing nonsense songs and that I mutter to myself. These are all accurate descriptions.

WATTERS: All accurate.

WILLIAMS: Is that right?


WILLIAMS: They do a better job with you than they do with my man, Jesse. I don't know why. It's not fair to Jesse. But I will say that, to me, there are just too many sources. So, like, even if you read conservative media, they say this president can be volatile and can be impulsive, unpredictable.

So I don't know. To me, when you have him described as fire and fury or fear or unhinged. I think these are book titles.


WILLIAMS: Gee, there's a lot of people saying this. I don't know.

GUTFELD: Three people. And many of them are liars. Lying liars. Liars, leakers, and liberals.

WILLIAMS: And flippers. They're flippers. I've dealt with those people. They're a bunch of crooks.

GUTFELD: Dr. Saphier, is there something psychologically wrong with the press?

SAPHIER: I always get the psychological questions.

WILLIAMS: She is not a psychologist.

SAPHIER: Thee problem I have -- the problem I have --

WILLIAMS: I do, actually.

SAPHIER: The problem I have with this verbiage is it encourages single- minded certainty and it really closes off all sorts of compromise. Ask anyone I work with, an even keel all day long until I'm faced with incompetency.

And at that point, you start to see that I get upset. I'm not throwing tantrums, but you know I'm upset. The press called President Trump angry 185 times since January 1. But you know what? He deals with incompetency every day.

Everything that he campaigned on, there are obstructionists in the way. Health care, the wall. We don't have all day.

But he's frustrated, and that's why he's angry. And --

PERINO: I think he would be -- I think that he might like to be described differently, but if he weren't described in these ways, he wouldn't be, actually, getting done what he says he's getting done. So --

GUTFELD: Fear helps.

WILLIAMS: You know how I'd describe him?


WILLIAMS: Stable genius.


GUTFELD: All right. Up next.


COLIN JOST, EMMY'S CO-HOST: "Roseanne" was canceled by herself but picked up by white nationalists.


GUTFELD: Jokes from the Emmy awards are getting a lot of attention. The highlights next.


PERINO: The 70th primetime Emmy Awards were held in Hollywood last night. It didn't take long for the show to turn political. Here are some of the highlights that have everyone buzzing.


JOST: "Roseanne" was canceled by herself but picked up by white nationalists.

The Obamas now even have their own production deal at Netflix. And my dream is that the only thing they produce is their own version of "The Apprentice."


JOST: And it gets way higher ratings.

CHE: My mother is not watching.

JOST: What?

CHE: She says she doesn't like watching white awards shows, because you guys don't thank Jesus enough. That's true. The only people -- the only white that thank Jesus are Republicans and ex-crackheads.


PERINO: All right. The show's rating reportedly sinking to an all-time low, down 10 percent from last year. There is somebody at this table, name redacted, who watched 90 minutes?

GUTFELD: Yes, I did.

PERINO: Funny? Not funny?

GUTFELD: Well I thought -- I don't see what the big -- I thought it was a fairly benign show for the first 90 minutes. You know, we spent a lot of time for the last three years calling people snowflakes, before -- about you know, because they can't take words on campus. If you have a problem with this -- with this, then you are officially a snowflake.

I actually think that the Michael Che joke was -- was an insult at the Emmys and not -- people think that, because he mentioned Jesus, he was making fun of Christianity.


GUTFELD: He was doing the opposite. What he was saying is his mom doesn't watch white awards shows, because nobody there thanks Jesus. And what he was knocking was this group as a homogenous group who doesn't thank Jesus. And then he says the only people who thank Jesus are Republicans and ex- crackheads. And the joke -- you know, maybe I got it wrong, but my interpretation is he's saying that you people out there do not thank Jesus. These people do. Republicans and people who just went through hell, who use religion to get out of a horrible addiction. Those are the only people. Now, of course, other people thank Jesus, but that joke was directed at that audience for being homogenous, liberal and basically agnostic.

PERINO: And then did you watch it, Jesse?

WATTERS: No, I didn't. I read a book, and I watched "Hannity." And then I listened to Limbaugh on the way in, and he actually had a really good point.

Television right now has never been this good.


WATTERS: There is such great quality television on Netflix and just everywhere that it's strange then, when they have awards shows about all these great TV shows, people change the channel or they don't watch. Because I just think --

GUTFELD: There's other stuff.

WATTERS: They like watching -- yes. They like watching the shows. They don't like listening to the actors --

PERINO: Right.

WATTERS: -- be political. And I agree with Greg. I thought some of those jokes are pretty funny. You know, I would've delivered it a little bit differently, but I haven't been invited yet. One of these days.

PERINO: One of these days. Juan.

WILLIAMS: I didn't watch it, that's for sure. Because I think I would rather watch the actual shows. And by the way --

WATTERS: You'd rather watch "Hannity." Right?

WILLIAMS: You know, it's hard for me to --

PERINO: Just say yes.

WILLIAMS: Because I'm getting ready for Laura Ingraham. I get the popcorn.

PERINO: -- going out.

WILLIAMS: So what I was going to say to Greg, I think that you're right. But I think that, you know, to my mind, he was saying black people would be thanking Jesus.

GUTFELD: That's what you think.

WILLIAMS: I don't know that -- I think it was beyond that. I thought it really spoke to that idea of who it is that will do something as daring as acknowledge their faith in public.

GUTFELD: You're exactly right. That's when I was trying to say. And it's a politically -- actually, a very politically incorrect thing to say, I think, on his part. And I thought it was kind of brave.

PERINO: It was a little risky.

GUTFELD: A little risky.

PERINO: You don't watch it, but do you like to watch any of the shows that got awards?

SAPHIER: I really stopped watching awards shows a couple years ago. Because I'm not interested in watching these Hollywood people having so much influence over the public. I just don't need to hear what they have to say.

I like the Grammys for the music. The moment they start speaking, it goes off. You know, a lot of these actors and entertainers, they're actually not educated, but they have this huge fan base, and so they just go off because they have this fan base. And I really appreciate intelligent conversation, so if you're not backing it up with education and facts, then I really have nothing --

PERINO: Do know what's a great awards show?


PERINO: Country Music Awards. That is a great show. Am I right, Alison?


WATTERS: A lot of thanking Jesus on that show.

GUTFELD: A lot of people are -- a lot of people are criticizing this who didn't even watch it.

PERINO: That's true.

GUTFELD: And it's like, come on. I actually watched it. This was the most benign. I'd say if you can't handle a few jabs, what's your problem?

WILLIAMS: What is wrong with "The Five" today? What is going on? You're supposed to attack the Hollywood elite.

GUTFELD: I do. I do that. Enough of that. I do that four times a week.

WILLIAMS: You're disappointing me.

PERINO: OK. We've got to go. OK. a new study says there are only four personality types. Which category does "The Five" fit in? We're going to find out about Greg next.


SAPHIER: You may have noticed "The Five" hosts have a variety of personalities. But a new study now says we can narrow them down to just four types: average, reserved, self-centered, and role models.

Good news, they can change over time, just in case you don't like the one we give you.

All right, guys. So we have already known that there are five personality traits. Many people have taken this massive questionnaire throughout the course of their lifetime and they have an idea of where they sit at.

Now we have a new study out that has taken those traits and has narrowed people down into four main personality types. So I have carefully decided what I think you guys are. Again, not a psychologist. However, for the fun of the show, and the study.

So for me, I like average. Average tends to be -- they're extroverted, but they're a little bit neurotic, meaning they're -- they have their emotional highs and lows. A lot of times, people tend to grow out of that.

So I think Dana, maybe when she was younger; definitely me, I was average when I was younger. But I have grown into role models. And I think Dana is a role model, which would means that she's extroverted, openness, agreeable, conscientious but she's not neurotic any more. She's a little bit more even keel.

Juan, I like Juan to be reserved. He's agreeable, conscientious, and he's also emotionally stable. And that's why I sit next to him.

PERINO: Do you think he's emotionally stable?

SAPHIER: There's no (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's very easy to be with.

Greg and Jesse, you guys are tough. You guys are tough.

WATTERS: Careful, doctor. I will tell you. I will tell you I go back and forth between, for Greg, I like average. And I want to go a little bit self-centered.

The only reason I say that is you're obviously extroverted. You're not necessarily agreeable. So that goes with self-centered. But I find you a little neurotic with your -- a little bit. So you're between average and self-centered for me.

And Jesse, only because it's being told in my ear, that you're self- centered over and over again by the little voice in the microphone.

WATTERS: The producer said that I was self-centered in an endearing way.

GUTFELD: Do you know what this is?

PERINO: That's true.

GUTFELD: Do you know what this is? This is like that astrology garbage. You know when you go and you see, like, you read your astrological sign, and it goes, "Oh, you're agreeable, yet you take risks. You're loving, yet reserved."

And then you realize you read the wrong astrology sign, but you agreed with it.

PERINO: Agreed with it.

GUTFELD: Because they use generic phrases so that you can say, "Hey, I'm reserved, but I'm also a role model."

WATTERS: That's what a Capricorn would say.

SAPHIER: Dana, do you think by me giving you this and saying what I think you are, that that would actually, you know, change some of your behaviors or make you kind of fit?

PERINO: Well, you said I was a role model, which according to me, it was, like, pretty much the best thing you could be on here.

GUTFELD: See what I mean?

SAPHIER: When you start putting people in a box -- so they do say that you can change, but --

PERINO: I do think that --

SAPHIER: -- if I put you in a box and you don't like it --

PERINO: I don't think I'm as extroverted as some people think I am. And I think part of that, I have learned, like, from people here, especially just going from the government work to in television, a lot of people are more energized when they go on television. And they leave, and they're energized. They're so excited. I'm kind of the opposite. I think it takes a lot for me to bring the energy to the show, and then I need to --

GUTFELD: Tell me about it.

PERINO: I know.

GUTFELD: I'm joking.

PERINO: No, but it's true. I do. And you've helped me with that.

WATTERS: Don't upset her. Don't upset her. She's fragile.

PERINO: No, she said I'm very even-keeled, emotionally.

SAPHIER: My reserved Juan. So my emotionally stable, reserved Juan. Do you think that people kind of jump into these different categories throughout the day during different life events? Or do you think someone is born with characteristics, and that's just how they stay?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I think people have to adjust. And I think successful people manage it. So if you want to be a leader, I think, even if you're an introvert -- and I can be very introverted at times -- I think we have to understand that, when you're in a social group or when it's -- you're in a challenge, you have to step up, and so you teach yourself how to do it.

So people who are successful at that, it may come across to some as they're extroverts, or what we have here is extroversion. But I think in fact, they can be learned skills.

By the way, I saw in the paper the other day an essay about who doesn't get into college in America. The most discriminated against group, introverts.

PERINO: And they actually create some of the most -- the biggest companies, the most successful companies.

WILLIAMS: And they're also disproportionately the artists and the thinkers. So it's the creative class.

WATTERS: Yes, sometimes I wish you were a little bit more introverted, Juan.

WILLIAMS: I know, I know. But you know what? I think of you as my rainbow, Jesse.

WATTERS: I'm your role model.

WILLIAMS: Yes, you are my role model.

WATTERS: I know.

WILLIAMS: Because you're so pushy.

SAPHIER: So Jesse, sum it up for us. Do you think that we are accurately characterized with our personality traits, or do you think I was off a bit?

WATTERS: No, I think you nailed it, Doctor. I'm not going to second-guess you.

SAPHIER: Thank you. Appreciate it.

WATTERS: Dana is definitely a rule follower. And what was the other one, on time for appointments. You're probably early for appointments.

PERINO: Always. If you're not early, you're late.

WATTERS: Yes, and Gutfeld is neurotic. And Juan -- you know, sometimes, Juan is moody. Let's not let Juan off with, like, the calm, average guy. Sometimes he comes in, and he's OK and he laughs at all our jokes, and sometimes he's angry.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my gosh.

SAPHIER: All right, guys.

WATTERS: Today he's in a great mood.

SAPHIER: Thanks for playing.

PERINO: Thanks for the role modeling.

SAPHIER: "One More Thing" is up next.


WATTERS: All right, Greg, it's time for "One More Thing."

GUTFELD: All right, let's do this.

GRAPHIC: Greg's Guide to Making Trump Happy

GUTFELD: "Greg's Guide to Making Trump Happy." We're pretty good at this.

All right. If you want to make President Trump smile, tell him you're going to name something after him, like the Polish president did. Look at Trump's face and read the words.


ANDRZEJ DUDA, POLISH PRESIDENT (through translator): I said that I would very much like for us to set up a permanent American base in Poland, which we would call Fort Trump, and I firmly believe that this is possible. I am convinced that such a decision lies both in the Polish interest as well as in the interests of the United States. Poland is an attractive country.


WATTERS: The lift of the eyebrow!

GUTFELD: I'm OK with that.

WATTERS: That was good.

WATTERS: All right, happy National Cheeseburger Day, America. And I have been right here from Bear Burger. I think it's got onion rings on it and bacon.

And people ranked their favorite cheeseburgers, and this is surprising to me. Twenty-five percent choose Five Guys for their top burger; 21 percent, Wendy's; and only 20 percent, McDonald's. so that was pretty shocking news to me.

And did you know the first cheeseburger hamburger was made in Denver, Colorado?

PERINO: I had no idea!

WATTERS: No one knows.

PERINO: I had no idea.

WATTERS: That's why we're here to tell you.

PERINO: At the where? At the Humpty Dumpty Drive-in.

WATTERS: Yes, but he never enforced his patent. What an idiot.

All right, Juan.

WILLIAMS: So you know, guys, fall starts Saturday, and that means hayrides. That means pumpkin picking, and it means colorful fall leaves.

Well, I wanted to show you some pictures. Here I am with my grandkids out at Butler's Orchard in Maryland.

But forget those pictures for a second, because we had an experience here at "The Five." We want to give a shout-out to two of our beloved "Five" fans, Scott and Mary McLean of Harvest Moon Farm and Orchard in Westchester, New York.

So these folks are so kind. Melissa Francis, our colleague, went out there with Melissa's daughter, Jemma (ph), who you'll see in a moment in the picture on a bungee jump. And they were asked, hey, you love FOX, but what's your favorite show on FOX? And they said, "Oh, 'The Five'."

And then, guess what? They sent us this pumpkin cheesecake!

PERINO: That looks good.

WILLIAMS: Which goes great with burgers.

WATTERS: Yes, it does. I'm going to eat it after the burger.

WILLIAMS: Harvest Moon, a local favorite in the North Stone (ph) community. We wish them much success.

WATTERS: Send us pies, we'll talk about you.

WATTERS: Dana Perino.

PERINO: All right. So you know that we all miss Charles Krauthammer very much. He passed away in June.

But there is some good news for those of you, because his legacy continues to live on. When he fell ill, he was in the advanced stages of almost finishing a whole new book, which he entrusted to his son, Daniel, that you see pictured there. Daniel has completed the book on his behalf. It is going to be called "The Point of It All: A Lifetime of Great Love and Endeavors." It will soon be released. It's now available for preorder. I think the date is December 4.

So if you need a holiday gift, that's it for you.

And if you visit Charles Krauthammer.com, you can view some of Charles' most influential pieces, and you can learn how to preorder the book. And I got a little sneak peek. It's fantastic.

WATTERS: Excellent.


SAPHIER: I want to tell you guys an amazing story about Jeffrey Cox, who is a young boy who was in a football scrimmage in early August and got a cervical spine fracture, paralyzing him from the neck down.

However, he's making amazing recovery and was just transferred to Atlanta. He also happens to be one of President Trump's biggest fans, working at the rallies, going to the inauguration.

WATTERS: All right. That is great. And very good news.

PERINO: Good luck to him.

WILLIAMS: Yes, good luck.

WATTERS: So set your DVRs, never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" is up next. Bret Baier, take it away.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: Thank you, Jesse.

Content and Programming Copyright 2018 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2018 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.