Jerome Corsi: Robert Mueller wanted me to lie

This is a rush transcript from "Tucker Carlson Tonight," December 3, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Good evening and welcome to “Tucker Carlson Tonight”. The migrant Caravan, the one they told you didn't exist, is real. And tonight, it's languishing in Tijuana.

Amazingly, the local population, people who live in Tijuana, are not at all happy about that. It turns out that nobody, except Liberals, likes illegal immigration. It's a disaster. Here's what Tijuana looks like tonight, for example.




CARLSON: In just a minute, we'll talk to a member of Tijuana's local government, who's very frustrated. He says it’s past time for the Caravan to go back to Honduras.

Plus, Paris is burning. There are riots in the streets. You may have seen something about that on the news. But most news outlets are lying, and they won't tell you why, what this is. Well, it turns out it's a backlash against the climate change agenda, which crushes the middle class of every country, including France.

But first tonight, the Mueller probe continues to hurt people who clearly have no connection at all to Russian spying or Vladimir Putin. Writer, Jerome Corsi, for example, who'll join us in just a minute, says that Mueller's prosecutors entrapped him in perjury, and then threatened him with prison, all in an effort to make him compliant.

Corsi says he has rejected a plea deal from Mueller and will be fighting back. Plenty of others, though, on television are confident that this, the Jerome Corsi connection is finally the big breakthrough, not at all like the 10 or 20 other breakthroughs that went nowhere.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the question now is have - has he crossed the line legal, and it looks every day that this goes on, it looks like he has more and more.

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER GOVERNOR, VERMONT: The basic lay of the land is that you have a Special Counsel with an extremely strong hand of which we're seeing a small piece.


CARLSON: A Special Counsel with an extremely strong hand, crushing Jerome Corsi. Jerome Corsi, though, has not backed down. Instead, today, he filed a criminal complaint against Robert Mueller. He alleges gross misconduct by the Special Prosecutor's office.

Jerome Corsi joins us tonight to explain. Mr. Corsi, thank you very much for coming on. Now, when last we spoke--


CARLSON: --my understanding was, from a previous conversation, that you had made a mistake. You say you forgot the date of an email that you forwarded, and that you went and told the Special Prosecutor's Office that you made that mistake, and they allowed you to amend your testimony. They allowed it.

But then, at a later time, when you didn't say what they wanted you to say, they came back and threatened to prosecute you for lying in the first iteration of your testimony. Is that correct?

CORSI: Yes, Actually, I had not seen my 2016 emails. I hadn't reloaded them the first day of testimony. I had forgotten about two emails. When I finally loaded the time machine, I realized these emails were there. The Special Prosecutor allowed me to amend the testimony about 10 days later.


CORSI: And then, in the one count they wanted to plead guilty to, they want to charge me with knowingly and willfully giving false information on the original day's mistake, not taking into account that they had allowed me, the Special cross - Prosecutor to amend the testimony, which I thought was completely fraudulent.

CARLSON: Well, it's certainly odd. And I - most lawyers we've spoken to have never heard of something like that. What was the point? Why were they pressing you on that? Why do you think they're threatening you with perjury?

CORSI: Well, from day one, I mean they blew up. They said they're going to have enough to throw me in prison because I forgot these emails. And I - I'm - I'm convinced it was all a strategy.

I mean I went in to cooperate. I gave my computers. I gave my time machine. I gave - handed over voluntarily my emails, my Twitter account etcetera, everything they wanted.

And now, the first day, you know, it's a memory test. And I don't get the memory test right and, suddenly, I'm going to be thrown in prison for the rest of my life. It's an intimidation tactic, and I'm quite convinced it's intentional.

CARLSON: Intimidating you to get you to do what? What did they want you to do that you refused to do?

CORSI: The key thing was that they wanted me to be the key link between it was going to be me, Roger Stone to me to Julian Assange, and then they'd have all their collusion together.

It would be Roger Stone to Steve Bannon to Donald Trump and coordination with Assange, except I - I figured out, on my own, on my - we'd had 25th Wedding Anniversary trip to Italy. On that flight, I - I calculated and figured out it was - Assange had Podesta's emails.

I'd never have met Assange. I've never talked to Assange or emailed him, and I have no contact with anyone who is in touch with Assange. And the rot - Prosecutors refused to believe this.

So, it led to grilling after grilling after grilling, constantly. They have an eight-inch thick book with my name on it. And Mr. Zelinsky, the - one of the prosecutors won't tell me if that's all about me, won't tell me how a book (ph) like that he's got, and they're asking me questions, and then pulling files out and say but this email contradicts it.

Well, I didn't - don't remember that email. I don't remember in detail any of my emails. I had 60,000 emails--


CORSI: --in my computer from 2016.

CARLSON: It's totally and - and - and that's kind of the point is that they had your email. So, if you had contact with Julian Assange, they would already know it. So, this - this is--

CORSI: Right.

CARLSON: --obviously a grotesque charade. So, I - I don't know the standing of your criminal complaint. But in principle, obviously, I'm rooting for you. Jerome Corsi, thank you very much.

CORSI: My pleasure, thank you.

CARLSON: Appreciate it, thanks.

Alan Dershowitz is a retired Harvard Law School professor. He's the author of "The Case Against Impeaching Trump," and he joins us tonight. Professor, thanks a lot for coming on. So as--


CARLSON: --assess, from a legal perspective, if you would, Jerome Corsi's claim that he was allowed to amend his testimony to correct a mistake that he said was a result of him just forgetting, being 72, and forgetting the details, and then being threatened with prosecution for lying using the first un-amended transcript of the testimony.

Does that pass the legal smell test?

DERSHOWITZ: I don't think so. There's no law prohibiting somebody from being indicted for lying on the basis of the first lie. But in 55 years of practicing criminal law, I have never heard or read of any case, where a person was allowed to amend his testimony and then corrected it, and was then threatened with indictment--


DERSHOWITZ: --for the un-amended original alleged lie. That just seems utterly unprecedented, if those facts are correct.

CARLSON: So, what would be the point of doing that? I mean what's - what's actually going on here, do you think?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, we know what's going on because Judge Ellis told us what's going on that is - that is, and he was the judge in the Manafort case, that is the modus operandi of the Special Counsel is to get as many people as possible to commit perjury or to lie, and then squeeze them, and use pressure on them to have them testify against the major targets of the investigation.

And what Judge Ellis said, appropriately, is the risk of that is not only would some people sing but they will compose. They will elaborate. They will tell the story--


DERSHOWITZ: --even better because they know that the better the story, the better the deal. But, having said that, I don't think that we're going to hear a criminal complaint being taken seriously by the--


DERSHOWITZ: --Justice Department against the Special Prosecutor. That's never happened in history as far as I know. But, raising this as a defense, both as a legal defense and as a factual defense, I think has some real credibility. So, if the facts are as they say - as he says they are, I think he would have a very--


DERSHOWITZ: --defensible case and he'll have a pretty good chance of winning and probably would be wise not necessarily to capitulate to the threats of prosecution. Now, there may be more there. I don't know, and I'm not giving him legal advice.


DERSHOWITZ: But based on what you asked, that seems like a very weak case.

CARLSON: Right. And that is his account of it. But if that's true, and adding that to everything else we know, is it possible that the prosecution, the Special Prosecutor has lost sight of the point of this entire exercise, which is to protect the country from a - a hostile foreign power?

DERSHOWITZ: Right. And I would put it a little differently. The - the Special Counsel was supposed to find crimes that already occurred before he became Special Counsel. That was his mandate.


DERSHOWITZ: To find crimes relating to Russia. As far as we know, he hasn't found very many of those. What he's done is to help create crimes that is, he's given people an opportunity to lie. Now, it's their fault if they lie. But these are all crimes--


DERSHOWITZ: --that have occurred after he became Special Prosecutor. That wasn't his mandate. And the other crimes, most of the ones that he found before, are financial crimes like with Manafort, utterly unrelated to his mandate. The one exception to that may be Cohen testifying about hundred- and-something-thousand-dollar payment to one of the women.

But that's a very questionable case because you're allowed to make contributions to your own campaign, particularly, if the purpose is to save you from embarrassment with family and friends, and help your business brand. So, that's going to be a very, very tough case to bring. We know that from the Edwards case.

CARLSON: How common is this among prosecutors, this kind of behavior, roping--

DERSHOWITZ: Well, you know, it's not common--

CARLSON: --trying to suborn someone into perjury?

DERSHOWITZ: --it's common when you're dealing with the Mafia. It's common when you're dealing with terrorists. But good prosecutors don't try to manufacture crime. And good prosecutors don't necessarily use the threat of prosecution to create evidence that is used to target somebody, who may not have committed any crime at all. So--

CARLSON: Right. Right.

DERSHOWITZ: --you know, prosecutors do a lot of things. But, good prosecutors, I think, don't do what allegedly is being done here. And I think that once the report comes out and once the President has an--


DERSHOWITZ: --opportunity, through his legal team, to respond to the report, maybe we'll see both sides of the issue, which up to now we haven't really seen.

CARLSON: Mafia and terrorists, Jerome Corsi not on either category, of course. Professor, thank you very much. Great to see you.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you. Thank you.

CARLSON: The President spoke briefly at the G20 Summit in Argentina this weekend. But a planned one-on-one meeting with the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, was canceled. The Administration blamed the cancellation on Russia's recent behavior toward Ukraine.

But it also came shortly after Michael Cohen's plea deal with the Mueller investigation. Then, in the end though, the President did have an informal meeting with Vladimir Putin anyway.

Stephen Cohen is a Professor Emeritus at NYU, a Contributing Editor to Nation magazine, and joins us to sort this out. He is the Author of a fantastic new book, which you should read, called War with Russia: From Putin and Ukraine To Trump and Russiagate, which I just got and read and loved.

Professor, thanks very much for coming on tonight, appreciate it.


CARLSON: So, sort this out, if you would. The President had a planned meeting with Vladimir Putin, and it was downgraded to an informal conversation. Why the change? What are the implications of it?

COHEN: For the first time since President Eisenhower, a President of the United States, Donald Trump, is not free to keep us from war with Russia. That is one of the themes of my new book, War With Russia, that you mentioned.

Remember what happened. Trump was supposed to meet with Putin in Argentina. Was that important? It was very important. We're embroiled in crises that are fraught with hot war, not just cold war, from Syria to Ukraine.

In this episode, in the Russian-Ukrainian waters occur, it seems clear it was a provocation to disrupt the meeting between Trump and Putin, and it was successful. Trump felt, because of these Russiagate allegations, clearly, that, you've just discussed with Professor Dershowitz, that Trump feels not free to deal with Putin in terms of national security.

Think back to John Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. I mean that was the model of what we should never do again. But the lesson also was--


COHEN: --is that President Kennedy was free to negotiate with the Kremlin leader to avoid nuclear war. That is not the case today. And that's why I think the danger of war with Russia, at least since the Cuban Missile Crisis, is greater in my lifetime in history than it's ever been because of these Russiagate allegations, for which I've yet to see any authentic evidence.

And we saw that last week. Trump either felt he could not or he lack the resolve to go ahead and meet with Putin, even though this meeting is desperately needed. There's a new crisis every month with Russia.

CARLSON: So, let me just ask the most basic question. Who - clearly, there are forces pushing for war with Russia, in effect, in our country. Who are they? And why are they doing that?

COHEN: I'm not prepared to say that they actually want actual war with Russia because, in my mind, that means the possibility of nuclear war. I mean a few decades ago, you and I would be having an, "Oh, my God conversation." I mean, how can we even think about--


COHEN: --the possibility of nuclear war? Somehow that's gone, lost in these Russiagate allegations that Trump is somehow under the influence of the Kremlin. There's no evidence for it.

So, in my mind, whoever promotes this Russiagate allegations, and it's primarily Democrats, not only, but primarily the Democratic Party, is endangering our national security. That - that's not a popular thing for a person such as myself, who used to live on the Liberal reservation to say, and people denounced me for saying it.

But it's the real truth based on my 50 years of studying American-Russian relations. We're in a very dangerous situation, Tucker. And this has - has to stop and has to stop very soon.

CARLSON: Professor Steve Cohen, coming from you, anyone who's followed Russia for the last several decades knows the weight that those words carry. So, I appreciate your saying that.

COHEN: Well--

CARLSON: Appreciate your new book. And we'll hope you'll come back. Thank you.

COHEN: Thank you.

CARLSON: We have a Fox News Alert for you. The President expected within the hour to pay his respects to former President George H.W. Bush, who is lying in state tonight inside the U.S. Capitol Rotunda. We're monitoring the Capitol for the President's arrival and bring it to you live in about 15 minutes. That's right here on Fox.

Local residents of Tijuana getting fed up with hosting the migrant Caravan. This is new video that tells the story of what it's actually like, almost (ph) the trash and contamination. Members of local government are angry. One joins us after the break.


CARLSON: Well the migrant Caravan from Honduras was headed for this country, but was stopped short in Mexico. It is now occupying the border city of Tijuana. Local residents in Tijuana are getting increasingly fed up about its presence.

Genaro Lopez is a Municipal Delegate for Downtown, Tijuana. He recently said that the Caravan leaders tricked people into travelling north with fault - with false promises. He also said that Caravan members would be better off returning to their home countries.

Delegate Lopez joins us tonight. Mr. Lopez, thank you very much for coming on.

GENARO LOPEZ MORENO, TIJUANA DELEGATE: Hi, good evening, from Tijuana. Thanks.

CARLSON: Thank you. I'm looking at a picture of you with some kind of encampment behind you. Will you tell our viewers what we're looking at?

LOPEZ MORENO: Yes. We're outside of a sports facility we call Juanita (ph) Benito Juarez. And this was like an emergency shelter for them. When they first got here, there were like 360 migrants coming here, and they walk all the way to the border where the border meets the surf because they were going to try and cross through the sea, through the beach or jump the fence.

And when we stopped them there, we had to bring them over here because the neighbors from - from that - from that part of town, it's called Playas de Tijuana, it's like Tijuana by the sea, they were getting mad and they - they even started throwing stones at each other.

So, we carried them (ph) over here like 360 but things got out of hand because it kept growing and growing. This is a federal issue.


LOPEZ MORENO: This is not a municipal issue. But we were carrying the load, the financial load of - of keeping these people with medicine, food, shelter, blankets, and whatever, and was costing us very much--

CARLSON: Well I noticed if I can--

LOPEZ MORENO: --and we're asking help from the--

CARLSON: --but - but I'm sorry to interrupt, but behind you it seems that somebody's cleaning up garbage. Is there a lot of trash there?

LOPEZ MORENO: There's a lot of trash because, what I was trying to tell you, the 360 grew to 6,200. And that's why it got out of hand. So, we got another facility. It's a big concert hall where you can have like 10,000 people under a roof.

We send them over here but it has to be voluntary because the - the people from Human Rights, they have their delegates here too, and they want them treat - have - wanted to treat them too kindly.

So, the ones who didn't want to go are staying here, so there's like 1,500 people here. There's 2,200 people there. And there's like 2,000 people that we - aren't accounted for.

CARLSON: Unaccounted for, what do you think, so those - basically, you have illegal aliens from Honduras in Tijuana. How do you feel about that?

LOPEZ MORENO: Yes. Well, I've heard that like the Border Patrol has been going up in detentions like a 100, 150 more detentions a day than they're used to. There was an accident in Freeway (ph) 8 that connects San Diego to Calexico. I think there were three Honduras there on that accident.

There - there were like eight people in - in a pickup truck bed. And so, some of them have - have made it across, not a lot, but some of them. But most of them, some are staying here, they're - they're - the ones that are - are outside here on the street, they said because they already started their - their paperwork for getting work permits here in Mexico, they want to stay in Mexico.

They know the - the - they - somebody popped the bubble of their American Dream, and they're staying here, like 200 have been repatriated home voluntarily. And we have deported more than 200. There's been like 236 detained by police, and we've sent those to the Immigration System.

CARLSON: So, you - you - you're dealing with several thousand unwanted immigrants in Tijuana. The United States right now has about 22 million illegal aliens living within our borders. Can you understand--


CARLSON: --now that you're - you're seeing this firsthand, the frustration of some Americans about that?

LOPEZ MORENO: Yes. Yes, people here that - the people from Tijuana are frustrated. If these people came here legally, if they went to our border and they started like, you know, a work visa, student visa or tourist visa, there would be no problem.

A lot of them do that and they try to work up to - to the border, and they try to - to do their - their paperwork also with CBP (ph) and - and your authorities to go legally into United States. A lot of them have families there.

A lot of them have families in Canada. I talked with people from the Canadian Embassy. They have a program that unites family of Mexicans--


LOPEZ MORENO: --or - or - or Hondurans who are working there. And - and they have visas for that. But these guys didn't cross legally into Mexico. They tore down our border--

CARLSON: No, they didn't.

LOPEZ MORENO: --and jumped and they started this Caravan. And right now, in the state, there's like 8,200. It's not a big number probably--


LOPEZ MORENO: --compared to what happens in the United States. But if they're--

CARLSON: --well it's - it's - it's not. But I--

LOPEZ MORENO: --in the street like this, it's a big problem. It's a big--

CARLSON: --I'm sympathetic.

LOPEZ MORENO: --health problem.

CARLSON: So - so, finally, how are you going to respond when this happens again because this will not likely be the last Caravan that comes through Tijuana?

LOPEZ MORENO: Yes. We have a change of (ph) president. This President has a very different mindset from the last President. This President says, "Welcome. We're going to give you jobs. We're going to create - create opportunities for you," and things like that, and we're worried. In Tijuana, we're worried because--

CARLSON: Yes. Got that (ph).

LOPEZ MORENO: --they're saying that but they're not helping us. We aren't - we aren't getting any federal help right now, and we're waiting for that to happen in the - in the next days. The other shelter, this was in charge of - of - of the town of Tijuana, the other shelter (ph)--


LOPEZ MORENO: --we handed (ph) over to federal authorities and they have to take care of it.

CARLSON: Well, we feel for you, Mr. Lopez. And I hope you'll come back on and tell - tell us how it's going. Thank you very much.

LOPEZ MORENO: We hope this gets better before it gets worse.

CARLSON: I hope so.

LOPEZ MORENO: Thank you.

CARLSON: Thanks.

This is a Fox News Alert. President George H.W. Bush, the 41st President of the United States is lying in state tonight at the U.S. Capitol building. The President has just arrived to pay his respects to his predecessor.

Fox Chief National Correspondent Ed Henry is at the Capitol for us tonight. Ed?

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: Tucker, good to see you. That's right. The motorcade arrived with President Trump, First Lady Melania Trump just in the last two or three minutes. They went inside on the Senate side of the Capitol.

We expect now that they will be meeting with some members of the Bush family, friends, others who were here. And then, he will get a chance, the President and along with the First Lady, to - to go visit the casket.

You see it right there it's in the Rotunda of the Capitol. This is the third U.S. President since 2004, former President, who has been lying in state in the Capitol Rotunda, Ronald Reagan in 2004, Gerald Ford, late 2006, early 2007, to give you an idea of the history of this.

There is a wooden platform that the casket sits on, and that is the same wooden platform that was used at President Abraham Lincoln's funeral in 1865. So, they keep that in storage here. They - they know the sense of history, how rare this is to have a former President lying in state.

It comes after some remarkable moments in that Rotunda. You saw Democrats like Nancy Pelosi embracing George W. Bush, of course, the President's - one of the President's sons, who also served as President.

President Bush will be lying in state here until Wednesday at 7:00 A.M. Then, that is, of course, a national day of mourning as declared by President Trump. And shortly, after the public viewing, the chance for the public to go by that casket, they will go to Washington National Cathedral, of course, for the memorial service that President Trump--

CARLSON: Right (ph).

HENRY: --will also attend, Tucker.

CARLSON: Ed Henry, thanks. We'll get back to you in just a minute.


CARLSON: We want to bring in now Dana Perino who, of course, hosts The Daily Briefing here on Fox and, naturally, The Five. She knew the former President well and worked for his son, the 43rd President. She joins us tonight. Dana, thanks a lot for coming on.

DANA PERINO, HOST: Thanks for having me.

CARLSON: You knew the Bush family well. We've spent the last several days talking about George H.W. Bush and his legacy. One - one sort of facet of his life that I don't think has gotten enough attention, but maybe is a window into the man he was, was his great and lifelong love of dogs, of spaniels too, I should say.

PERINO: It's true.

CARLSON: You saw that.

PERINO: Your favorite, spaniels, that's true.

CARLSON: Yes. It's--

PERINO: You know, it's interesting. And just watching as the President and Melania Trump, the First Lady arrived there at the Capitol to - to have this moment, one thing that's just interesting about that is about my husband, Peter, who, you know, he's British, but became an American citizen in 2006, and he's been watching today, and he said, "America sure does this kind of thing very well," and I think that's true.


PERINO: So, yes, President George H.W. Bush loved pets from a - when he was a young boy. They had pets all during their marriage of 73 years. One of the ones that a lot of people will remember is Millie. Of course, there she is. And Millie actually had puppies there at the White House. And one of those puppies was named Spot.

Spot was given to George W. Bush and Laura Bush as a present. So, for a little bit of history for everyone, Spot is the only dog to ever live in the White House twice, and you should be able to - there - that's Spot--


PERINO: --there, I think, yes, I think that's Spot. And they - I think that part of the reason that they had pets is that, as Barbara Bush said, pets make a house a home. And one of the things when you're trying to help a - a President just feel like they have some normalcy after the end of a workday, even though they only have a 30-second commute that pets really help them do that.

CARLSON: Dogs are - are helpless without people, which is one of the great appeals about dogs, but also the reason that dogs tell us so much about the people who have them, I would say.

Watching, there was a picture today of the former President's dog sitting near the casket. And I saw--

PERINO: Sully.

CARLSON: --ah, what a moving--


CARLSON: --maybe the most moving picture exactly right.

PERINO: Sully is a service dog. He came to George H.W. Bush in about July when he was in Kennebunkport, Maine. He could do things like turn on or off a light. He could go alert somebody if 41 needed help. He could open or close a door.

But one of the things, I remember, when I saw 41 in June, is his eyes really lit up when we talked about Sully because he was going to come and become a part of the family. He's a really lively dog.

Of course, there you see him standing watch over the person that he was meant to help, George H.W. Bush--


PERINO: --and this is a - a picture that kind of broke everyone's hearts. And it's not because we don't understand that the family is going through things. It's just one of those things that, you know like (ph), Americans are caring creatures.

We care about those that we have dominion over, such as animals like Sully. But the good news is here, Tucker, Sully is going to continue his service. He will be going to Walter Reed Medical Center, where he will continue to help those who need a service dog, and he might even help train some other dogs.

CARLSON: Politicians all used to have dogs. It was almost required. Now it's much more unusual. And I've always thought that when you have a dog, it's not all about you. You know, the - it's about the dog. And--

PERINO: Well, the other thing is they have a--

CARLSON: --George H.W. Bush was one of those guys you really felt like he was interested in the dog, and then not everything was about him. It came through in his letters too I thought.

PERINO: Well the great thing is to - and, you know, you have a busy and hectic job and - and a stressful schedule that the dog doesn't care that you had that you got to--


PERINO: --speak to the Prime Minister of Canada earlier in the day and had lunch, and then later on you made a big decision about war and peace, like the dog just wants to hang out and throw the ball. And here we see--


PERINO: --the President and Melania Trump, heading into the Capitol Rotunda.

CARLSON: We're going to listen for a second.




CARLSON: Want to go back to Dana Perino now.

We're watching the President and the First Lady leave the room. He is there not simply because he's President but because it was the wishes, some of the final wishes of the 41st President that he be there, which struck a lot of people as unusual, considering there has been this well-publicized tension between the families.

Tell us about that.

PERINO: Well, I don't think it's that unusual, if you knew 41, right? This is the most gracious--

CARLSON: Right. I think that's right.

PERINO: --decent person. But also, because, again, as my husband had said, America does this kind of thing very well. Peaceful transfers of power from one President to the next.


PERINO: If you think about the letter that 41 wrote to Bill Clinton that left in his desk in the Oval Office, and Bill Clinton shared that with everyone this weekend.

Basically he's saying, you're our President, I'm rooting for you. And I'll be here if you need me. But I'm going to, you know, step out and let you do your job because it wasn't for him about the person is - is also about the Office of the Presidency, and how important that is to our country, the Global World Order, and all the things that we have been able to achieve in our country since our Founding Fathers gave us this great gift.

And this is a real passing from one generation to the next, really, the greatest generation. They are nearly all gone. And so, I think President Trump and Melania Trump--


PERINO: --going there tonight, they're - they are not only just respecting 41, but they are also respecting and upholding the Office of the Presidency, and I think we should all keep that in mind over the next few days.

CARLSON: Oh, I agree with that. And to write a letter like that after the campaign of '92 which never really got the credit it deserved for being really ugly from the Clinton side--

PERINO: You covered it.

CARLSON: --I thought, and personal and nasty, I did cover it, and it was very - it was savage. And the Bushes, I think, as a family, were really hurt by it. To write a letter like that, right after that kind of campaign, really says a lot.

PERINO: 43 says he once asked his father, "Where did you find the strength to be gracious and to be so kind to somebody who had just beaten you like that?" And 41 said something very important.


PERINO: He said, "I had no choice." Part of that is how he decided to live his life. And one of the things I emailed to you this morning, Tucker, is this idea of personal responsibility, of how you choose to live your life, how you choose to parent.

And that unconditional love was so important to his family. But I have to say with George H.W. Bush, he had unconditional love for this country, as well, and I think that now is reflected. Of course, he lost, but, you know, it was not easy to win a third term. It's - it's only happened twice since World War II. It's very hard to have won a fourth--


PERINO: --one for any party. But he leaves and he has a wonderful post- presidency. And, thankfully, history gave him enough time to see that his legacy was assured, especially on the foreign policy front.

CARLSON: I think that's right. And it's - and it's reflected in - in the coverage, which with some exceptions has been, I would say, fond and--

PERINO: Oh, yes. I - I have a couple--

CARLSON: --generous too (ph).

PERINO: --I could mention but I was trying (ph) to be--

CARLSON: Yes, no, but in--

PERINO: --gracious.

CARLSON: --but in, general, no, I--


CARLSON: --I agree. They're - they're always wackos. But, in general, I think people have been kind--

PERINO: Definitely.

CARLSON: --to a kind man. Dana Perino--

PERINO: Well, you even have Evan Thomas.

CARLSON: --thank you very much.

PERINO: OK. You're right. All right, good night.

CARLSON: No, you're right. Evan Thomas--


CARLSON: --actually good guy. Thank you very much.

We're going to be right back. We'll take you out on the pictures of the 41st President lying in state in the Capitol Rotunda.





CARLSON: Ever feel like you're the last to know about something? Well Bill and Hillary Clinton might make you feel better about that. They are literally the only two people in the world who don't yet realize they're not as popular as they once were.

The former President and First Lady just launched a National Speaking Tour because $250 million is not enough. And yet, sales have been lackluster, to put it charitably.

New York Times Columnist, Maureen Dowd, described thousands of arena seats being covered up in Toronto due to poor sales. Ticket prices that (ph) began in the hundreds of dollars fell to single digits by the end because nobody wanted to buy them, the market at work.

Is America finally, mercifully, getting over the Clintons? Author and Columnist Mark Steyn joins us tonight to assess. Mark, before we assess what's obvious, which is their time is over, the - the deeper question is, why don't they know that? And what is the speaking tour about?

MARK STEYN, STEYNONLINE.COM: Well, I would have thought that if you didn't know it before, looking out at - and, actually, Maureen Dowd overestimated the number of seats. It was actually 80 - the 83.4 percent empty the arena in Toronto--


STEYN: --the Scotiabank, 83.4 percent empty.

I believe, actually, the last time I guest-hosted for you, the audience was suddenly 83.4 percent empty, so these things can happen. When you're the President--

CARLSON: I saw the numbers. That's not true.

STEYN: --when the--

CARLSON: And you did great.

STEYN: --when - when you're the President and - and - and a putative next president, it's a great Frank Sinatra line. You should always listen very carefully when the public is telling you goodbye. And that's what the--


STEYN: --16.6 percent seating capacity in Toronto was telling the Clintons.

CARLSON: But I wonder why? I mean it's not surprising either. And I have to say, in their defense, they played this out a lot longer than I ever thought they possibly could. I mean it's been over 25 years now.

I'd - I've never found them very impressive, but they've managed to get incredibly rich, hundreds of millions of dollars rich, and stay famous all this time. So, they - they've had a long run considering where they started.

But why do they feel the need to do this? That's what baffles me.

STEYN: No. It's - it makes an interesting contrast with what's going on in the Rotunda right now, because you can say what you like about the first President Bush. But his post-presidency was a model of a dignified post- political life, which is why--

CARLSON: Yes. Yes.

STEYN: --he's getting the - which - which is one reason he's getting the send-off he's getting. By contrast, I think it's a Tina Brown line where she said - she said something alike, he has a - about Bill Clinton, he has a heat-seeking glamor that lives in the - a permanent hyper-present tense and dares you to join him there.

And I - I think that in her own way she actually - she - she actually understood that these - they're on a perpetual hamster wheel. And - and for the last--


STEYN: --few years, they - they would get - raking in big bucks from a niche market, lay about Saudi princes and Kazakh oligarchs and all these other sleazy figures, who were willing to give them millions of dollars because they thought they were going to be back in the White House.

Now, they can't get people to give them, in Toronto, they couldn't get people to give them 10 bucks. That's what ticket price will - and that's 10 dollars Canadian, which, thanks to Justin Trudeau, is about a buck - a buck 79 American right now.


STEYN: So, that's - the difference between what a Saudi Prince is prepared to pay and - and what an average ordinary member of the public in Toronto is prepared to pay tells you of what - what has happened to the Clintons in the real world.

CARLSON: So, very quickly, I - I'm just speculating here, but since you know everything, I'm just going to run this by you because maybe you know the answer. Those eight or nine guys who dismembered Khashoggi, how many were donors to The Clinton Foundation, do you know, off the top of your head?

STEYN: Well, the - the clever thing about them is that warring factions in the House of Saud were all big donors to The Clinton Foundation. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying there's different princes, but they were - they were all trying to buy off The Clinton Foundation in the good old days.


CARLSON: Exemplary (ph).

STEYN: --prices slashed to - prices slashed to clear on Clinton Foundation speeches now.

CARLSON: I've noticed. Mark Steyn, always, so refreshing to see you. Thank you.

STEYN: Thanks a lot, Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, a lot of people in France spent the weekend burning their capital. But most of the press in this country isn't interested in why it happened. And those who know aren't telling. Instead, they're lying.

We'll tell you why these riots are actually happening because it's fascinating. And it says a lot about our country too. Stay tuned.


CARLSON: Well, Paris is on fire. The city's seeing some of its worst riots in half a century. What exactly is going on here?

Well, if you turn on the television to other news outlets, you'll see people telling you this is about gas taxes or economic hardship or rising oil prices.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were fueled by an increase in gasoline tax but have grown into a fierce fight against declining living standards.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Yellow Vests had warned that this would be part three of a protest against a hike in the fuel tax.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fury on the streets of Paris as the economic hardship long felt outside the city turned its wealthiest neighborhoods into a war zone.


CARLSON: Oh, they're lying. Now, most of them have no idea because they're not interested in anything that's not happening in Brooklyn. But some of these people, talking to you on television, know what's actually going on, and they're just not telling you.

It's not about rising oil prices. That's false. It's about climate change. It's about the climate agenda. The French gas tax isn't designed to raise money. The President has implemented it for the stated purpose of fighting climate change. Now they're fighting their own citizens, instead, because the climate agenda always crushes the middle class, always and everywhere.

Chuck DeVore understands this. He's Vice President for National Initiatives at the Texas Public Policy Foundation. And he joins us tonight. Chuck, thanks very much for coming on.


CARLSON: What's so interesting about this, and it's gotten virtually no coverage, despite being Paris, a city most people have heard of, is that this is a coalition of Left and Right against the elites, or am I misstating that.

DEVORE: Well, I think you're onto something here, Tucker.

And I think it's important to realize that these individuals, the Yellow Vests, protesting in France are really frustrated because they see their government helping poor immigrants from, generally, North Africa, and some from the Middle East, and certainly being on the side of the wealthy elites, but they're being squeezed in the middle.

And what we're looking at here is about a $0.30 a gallon gas tax increase, a little less than 10 percent on what's already about oh, you know, $3.50 in taxes on gasoline.

CARLSON: Huh? Does that sound familiar at all to you? I mean is there a political party (ph)--


CARLSON: --on our continent--

DEVORE: Right.

CARLSON: --that is tied to, say, finance and people on welfare, and nobody in between and is seeking to raise carbon taxes to fight global warming? I mean does that - it's - I've heard of that.

DEVORE: Yes, absolutely. So, it's important to realize that in Paris, you're looking at about $7.06 a gallon for fuel, almost half of that is taxes. Now, if we save - if we follow what the U.N. reported, what they want to do is have a $49 a gallon gas tax in 12 years. And we need that, they say, to fight global warming, to fight climate change. Well that would be a 14-fold increase on the taxes in France. In America, where the average is $0.49 per gallon of taxes, you go to $49, that's a 100 times increase in fuel taxes, it would wreak havoc on the middle class, and it would utterly alter the U.S. economy.

CARLSON: But I never - I - here's what I'm confused by is that OK, I understand there's - people who are sincerely concerned about climate change. I get it. I'm not denying its existence. But the solutions baffle me. So, why tax gas which only hurts the middle class?

Why not tax, I don't know, SoulCycle, or expensive dinners, or how about clothes that carried (ph) interest loophole, or how about a finance tax or how about banning private airplanes? But, that's never up for debate, ever. Why?

DEVORE: Well, again, I think this is about control. This is about who gets to decide where we live and how we get to--


DEVORE: --work, the life that we live. And, Tucker, what's really disturbing to me is we just had the National Climate Assessment published by the Federal Government.

And a key part of that report that was touted by The New York Times and CNN said that our economy would be 10 percent smaller by the year 2100, and that thousands of people would die because of climate change.

What was not reported, however, is the people behind the study were Michael Bloomberg and Tom Steyer, the two Left-wing billionaires that want to be our next president.

They were the ones along with the Federal Government, unfortunately, who financed this study that had no new science, but use very questionable economic modeling to say that things are going to be really bad in 80 years.

CARLSON: Well then, I just wonder though, I mean they - both those guys are for a gas tax. But instead of a gas tax, why don't they just turn over their billions to the federal Treasury and we can (ph) use that money to fight climate change? I mean--

DEVORE: Well, because that - that wouldn't change--

CARLSON: --do you know what I mean? This is a wealth transfer from the middle class to people--

DEVORE: Right.

CARLSON: --who're already rich.

DEVORE: Right. Well, that wouldn't change our behavior, right? So then, you have to do things that change behavior.


DEVORE: And the only way you can do that is--

CARLSON: Of course.

DEVORE: --by taxing gas a lot.

CARLSON: Yes. Tax the middle class, which they hate. Chuck, thank you very much. Great to see you.

DEVORE: Thank you.

CARLSON: Well, do you plan to bring home the bacon this year? Well, soon, you won't be able to. Vegans say the very term is offensive to them, it could be banned. We'll have details, next.


CARLSON: You want to bring home the bacon for your family this year? How about killing two birds with one stone by, I don't know, dropping your kids off at school on the way to work? Well, enjoy those idioms while you can. Vegans might try to banish them.

A British Academic called Shareena Hamzah predicts that in a new paper as veganism grows in popularity, animal-based terms of speech could be banned for the sake of sensitivity. Hamzah suggests alternatives like feeding two birds with one scone.

You may think vegans have bigger fish to fry than that. But if we've learned anything in recent years it's that, just because something sounds ludicrous doesn't mean it can't happen. Not to beat a dead horse, but this could happen.

Well, that's it for us tonight. We'll be back tomorrow, 8:00 P.M., the show that is the sworn enemy of lying, pomposity, smugness, and groupthink. Hope you've had a great hour.

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