Hoeven: There's a strong case for border security

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Hoeven: There's a strong case for border security

Sen. John Hoeven reacts to President Trump's threat of a government shutdown over funding for the border wall.

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," December 11, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: If we have to close down the country over border security, I actually like that in terms of an issue. But I don't want it to be an issue.

I want it to be something that the country needs. It's not really an issue. It's something the country needs. It's common sense. The country needs it. We need protection. We need border security. We need security from drugs that are pouring into our country.

They're coming in right through that southern border. And we need a wall. We need border security, and part of border security is a wall. So I don't mind owning that issue.

Chuck's problem is that, you know, when the -- when we last closed down, that was his idea. And, honestly, he got killed. And so he doesn't want to own it, and I said, you know what, rather than us debating who is owning it, I will take it. I will take it.

If we close down the country, I will take it, because we're closing it down for border security. And I think I win that every single time.

OK? Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Press, let's go. Make your way out. Let's go.

TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you very much, folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: All right, there you have it, the president tried to make clear he didn't think there was any big fuss when he had that exchange with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, that it was almost much ado about nothing.

The president saying he liked the exchange and thinks they're still making progress on a variety of bipartisan fronts, including this criminal justice reform system that got a vote guaranteed by no less than the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell.

Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto.

And this is "Your World."

An out-of-the-world experience of the Oval Office today that led to an exchange that was exactly not photo-friendly. Take a look here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-Calif., HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We came in here in good faith, and we're entering into a -- this kind of a discussion in the public view.

TRUMP: But it's not bad, Nancy. It's called transparency.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, D-N.Y., SENATE MINORITY LEADER: We shouldn't shut down the government over a dispute. And you want to shut it down. You keep talking about.

TRUMP: I -- no, no, no, no, the last time, Chuck, you shut it down.

SCHUMER: No, no, no.

TRUMP: Twenty times.

And then you opened it up very quickly. And I don't want to do what you did. But, Chuck...

SCHUMER: Twenty times -- 20 times, you were called for, I will shut down the government if I don't get my wall. None of us has said...

TRUMP: You want to know something?

SCHUMER: You have said it.

TRUMP: OK, you want to put that on my...

SCHUMER: You've said it.

TRUMP: I will take it.

SCHUMER: OK, good.

TRUMP: You know what I will say? Yes. If we don't get what we want, one way or the other, whether it's through you, through military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government, absolutely.

SCHUMER: OK, fair enough. We disagree. We disagree.

TRUMP: And I am proud -- and I will tell you what. I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: So, there you have it, FOX on top of the president doubling down.

And we have got Kevin Corke at the White House, where the battle, the president makes clear, is just beginning, Chad Pergram on how Democrats are right now responding, and then Deirdre Bolton on why, in the end, investors were not exactly panicking.

We begin with Kevin.

Hey, Kev.

KEVIN CORKE, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Neil, what a day, I mean, it absolutely stunning afternoon here at the White House.

I don't think there's any way to look at this other than to say, wow. I mean, this was a rare glimpse at the bare-knuckles, behind-the-scenes brawling that you rarely get to see outside of Washington, D.C. You saw the president there just moments ago once again doubling down, in effect, on this idea that, listen, I am willing to take this all the way to get what I want, which is safety and security for the American people.

It was a stunning back and forth. I want to share just a bit of it for the folks at home who were not able to watch it live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We need border security. The wall is a part of border security. You can't have very border security without the wall.

PELOSI: That's simply not true, because that is a political promise. Border security is a way to effectively honor our responses.

SCHUMER: And the experts say you can do border security without a wall, which is wasteful and doesn't solve the problem.

TRUMP: It totally solves the problem, and it's very important.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: Unfortunately, this has spiraled downward from when we came at a place to say, how do we meet the needs of American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORKE: Now, listen the president right there, you saw him say, in effect, this has to get done one way or the other, Neil. There is simply no other way.

And, in fact, he said, I have broad shoulders, I'm the guy that can shoulder the load on this government shutdown if it comes to that. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I am proud -- and I will tell you what. I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck, because the people of this country don't want criminals and people that have lots of problems, and drugs pouring into our country.

So, I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting down, and I'm going to shut it down for border security.

SCHUMER: But we believe you shouldn't shut it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORKE: Can't make it any more clear than that.

By the way, the president this afternoon, Neil, said what you didn't see on TV when a lot better than what we saw on TV. Hard to imagine -- back to you.

CAVUTO: You know, a feisty exchange is OK by me.

CORKE: Yes, me too.

CAVUTO: I mean, on both sides. So it beats the normal dull kind of politically correct photo-op.

CORKE: Yes.

CAVUTO: All right, thank you very, very much my friend, Kevin Corke.

To Chad Pergram right now on where things stand, because in the middle of all of this could be potentially, in a little more than a week's time, a potential partial government shutdown.

How likely is that?

CHAD PERGRAM, CAPITOL HILL PRODUCER: Well, when you see Chuck Schumer and President Trump going at it back and forth like that, it kind of reminds you of, you know, two guys on Atlantic Avenue, one guy from Queens, one guy from Brooklyn, arguing about the Yankees and the Mets.

That's kind of how frank it was here.

Now, something we have heard in just the past couple of hours is that Republicans in the House of Representatives have been chatting about maybe putting a bill on the floor that they would pass only with Republican votes that would provide $5 billion in wall money.

Now, one of the questions is, if they had the votes, why haven't they done that already? Nancy Pelosi indicated to the president that she said, you know, you guys don't have the votes. The president said, I do.

This was something I engaged this morning with House Speaker Paul Ryan. There were two bills that failed earlier this year, different types of bills, mind you, but failed in the House of Representatives, which would have provided, you know, full wall funding.

And that's why Democrats are the linchpin right now, Neil. Unless Republicans can put their money where their mouth is and move a bill like that, then they have to have Democratic votes. Now, if they do, then that's a rebuke to Nancy Pelosi, it shows they stand behind President Trump, and then this kick things over to the Senate.

Remember that mantra the Schumer shutdown back this winter, when we had the short shutdown. Well, there's only 51 Republicans in the Senate right now. That means that Chuck Schumer would have to bring along nine Democrats. And that's where Republicans might be able to turn this back around on Democrats.

But, still, it remains to be seen if they can get there. It's always pretty dark like this around Christmastime here on Capitol Hill. We had a Christmas Eve morning vote on Obamacare in the Senate a few years ago. We have had the fiscal cliff. We have had other, you know, government shutdown tirades and things.

So, a lot of times, they go right up to the precipice. There's a reason why this bill was designed for money to run out on the 21st at 11:59:59 p.m., and maybe get -- you know, get this all fighting out of their system. And then they come together right before Christmas, Neil.

CAVUTO: Real quickly, Chad, the fighting is really over about $3.5 billion, the gap between what Democrats are OK to commit to this wall or border funding, whatever you want to call it, and the $5 billion the president wants.

PERGRAM: Right.

CAVUTO: But, in the balance, a lot more money.

PERGRAM: Right. It's not that much money at the end of the day.

And if there is a government shutdown, Chuck Schumer reminded people that Nancy Pelosi prospectively will have the gavel in early January, and then the House led by Democrats will pass a bill to just re-up all the money at the existing levels and punt it back over to the Senate.

So if there is a government shutdown over Christmastime, it's probably going to be in the Senate's bailiwick.

CAVUTO: All right, we shall see. Thank you, my friend. You have been great today on both networks...

PERGRAM: My pleasure. Thank you.

CAVUTO: ... FOX News and FOX Business, course.

If you don't get the latter, you -- well, you know the drill. You should demand it.

All right, well, stocks were all over the map on this, but by day's end, if you think they were panicking about, oh, my gosh, the government's going to shut down, they had a funny way of showing it.

Deirdre Bolton joins us right now.

DEIRDRE BOLTON, FOX BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

CAVUTO: Shaken, but in the end, barely stirred.

BOLTON: That's exactly right, Neil.

And we can take a look at that intraday graph that you just showed, because there was a 570-point swing. And, as you said, the Dow did close the day lower but two-tenths of a percent. I mean, we can almost call that unchanged. But this is the fifth day in a row that we have seen a 500- point range for the Dow.

If you look at today's activity, of course, the threat of this partial shutdown was a big piece of the puzzle. As we know, by December 21, up to two seven federal agencies are at risk of being closed, are at risk of being furloughed, shut down.

So you did have some of that weighing on the markets. And if you want to see the areas that were most affected on the downside, so our viewers can see this red part, you had financials. So Goldman Sachs was one of the bigger weights on the Dow, if you look, as far as industrials as well. That was another area that took a hit on the S&P 500. That showed up on the Dow as Boeing.

Looking at some of the bright spots, where you see those green mountains, if you like, pretty defensive, so you had utilities, also consumer staples. These were the groups that really added to the push and pull, one group on one side, one group on the other.

I want to mention as well, as much as we're following this threat of the potential shutdown, there is also the headline of the former Canadian diplomat that was arrested in China. And that actually, for our viewers to see on that intraday chart, was the actual low point of the session, but lots going on for investors to monitor, Neil.

CAVUTO: Incredible, just incredible.

All right, thank you, Deirdre, very, very much.

BOLTON: Sure.

CAVUTO: So, again, the markets were hardly concerned.

And, for that matter, neither is the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, seemingly indicating today that he doesn't see a shutdown happening. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, R-Ky., MAJORITY LEADER: Well, I hope that's not where we end up. I understand it was a rather spirited meeting we all watched.

But I would still like to see a smooth ending here. And I haven't given up hope that that is what we will have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: With us now, North Dakota Republican Senator John Hoeven, a member of the Appropriations Committee, a very crucial committee, at that.

Senator, thank you for taking the time.

Do you think a shutdown is going to happen?

SEN. JOHN HOEVEN, R-N.D.: No, I don't think so.

I mean, this is some of the back and forth you always seem to get towards the end. And I really think there's a strong case to be made here for the $5 billion for border security, because I think the American people very much want the border secured.

CAVUTO: So, the president is more or less saying, this is important enough for me that I would risk it.

Is it important enough for you?

HOEVEN: Well, I think, at the end of the day, it's the American people who decide this issue by how they weigh on it. I think they want that border security.

I believe we should get the $5 billion. We're working hard to do it.

CAVUTO: They might weigh in on it, but you guys vote on it, right?

HOEVEN: That's right.

CAVUTO: So, I'm wondering where you see this going.

HOEVEN: Well, I think we have got the strong part of this argument.

Also, we have funded 75 percent of the government. It -- this isn't like a full shutdown type of situation. I think that gives us some leverage as well. But the most important point is that we need to secure the border. And I think it's just common sense.

And I think it's what Americans want.

CAVUTO: So, what happens now? If this is a preview of coming attractions, Senator, I know the initial read was, this is going to be a stormy two years. Do you think that's the case?

HOEVEN: Well, I think there's going to be some fiery debates, no doubt about it.

But, look, we're passing a farm bill today. Matter of fact, we're voting on it right now in the Senate. I worked very hard on that, with others. It's bipartisan. It's a good example of what we can and should do to come together on the important issues, again, that serve our country.

CAVUTO: All right, sir, thank you very, very much.

We will be monitoring these developments very, very closely, Senator Hoeven.

HOEVEN: Thanks.

CAVUTO: I do want to keep you updated on what's been happening in France. And now they are officially labeling what happened today a shooting that was a terrorist act.

The police there have been confirmed that appears to be the case in Strasbourg, France, a major Christmas shopping area that was disrupted by a lone shooter, we're told. We're told that up to two people that have been killed, two official deaths reported, eight wounded. Several are in critical condition.

We know that the shooter himself or herself -- don't know for sure -- was wounded, but not arrested, which means he's still out there.

More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, well, it was a sight to behold in the office today, the president and the vice president meeting with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

I'm no body language expert, but let's just say it was a little tense. A good deal of the time, Chuck Schumer wouldn't even look at the president.

But my favorite of this had to be the vice president of the United States, a very stoic response. They have had some names and other comments to make on the Internet about that, but he's in an uncomfortable position, trying to at least be the ambassador, sort of helping with this process along, betwixt and between, and maybe, just taking a guess here, not wanting to be there at that exact time.

But I could be missing that, because, as I said, I read a prompter. I don't read body language.

All right, now let's get to read from Washington, Free Beacon's Liz Harrington, Democratic strategist Robert Patillo, and America Majority CEO Ned Ryun.

Ned, what did you think of all that?

NED RYUN, AMERICAN MAJORITY PRESIDENT: I thought it was great. I think Trump is absolutely right to say, I will shut it down. I will shut down government.

I would argue he should shut down the southern border. I would argue that $5 billion, why are we talking about $5 billion, Neil, when, in fact, it should be about $25 billion? And I think he should shut it all down until he gets full funding.

This is one of the reasons he was elected. And I'm staggered by the hypocrisy, Chuck Schumer sitting there -- 2006, he voted for the Yuma sector wall, and now he could barely even tolerate the thought of a billion dollars for our southern security.

I hope that Democrats pushed too far on this, Neil, because you're seeing a rise in the poll numbers now. The majority of the American people, regardless of party affiliation, want a southern border wall.

And the most interesting statistic I have seen recently...

CAVUTO: Well, that's not quite...

(CROSSTALK)

RYUN: Sixty-two percent of people want a reduction in legal immigration.

CAVUTO: No, no, I hear where you're coming from, but I don't know if the case is made over a few billion dollars.

Believe me, like Everett Dirksen said, you begin to lose count with this money, a billion here, a billion there.

RYUN: Right.

CAVUTO: But what I'm wondering about, Liz Harrington, is, the difference seems to be over $3 billion, right?

I mean, the $5 billion the president wants for this, by the way, which would be just the latest tranche in what would be $25 billion, to Ned's point, for a full-fledged wall along the entire border or something like it.

But this is over $3 billion, really, the $1.5 billion or so Democrats have already agreed to, the $5 billion the president wants. So is it worth on either side making this the cross or the Grail for you?

ELIZABETH HARRINGTON, THE WASHINGTON FREE BEACON: Well, yes, because this is President Trump's signature issue. And this might be his last chance with a Republican-led House to get it done, at least a big down payment on the wall, which he has been promising since he went down that escalator.

But, yes, I think it's really sad in a way, though, that the mainstream media finds it so remarkable and wild to see our political leaders actually engaging in discussion over policy, and they can't really quite handle it over on the other networks. They are so taken aback.

They're much more comfortable, I think, on their shallow palace intrigue stories. But here we have a pretty straightforward debate, $5 billion, not that much, for something that Chuck Schumer himself has voted for. And I think President Trump is willing to have that fight, and I think it's a much more popular issue with the American people than the media thinks.

CAVUTO: Well, it might very be.

And I just -- I under -- I know how it goes, and the media looking at. The president looks belligerent, insisting on something that would risk shutting down the government to get it. You could just as easily argue, on the part of the Democrats in that room, equally insisting that he shouldn't get it, risking the same said shutdown.

But, Robert, I don't know if this approach and using that as sort of the stick is going to get anyone to see a carrot. You know what I mean?

ROBERT PATILLO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I think what should have happened today is, he should have explained, well, what exactly is the $1.6 billion the Democrats want going to be paying for and what is the $5 billion the president wants going to be paying for?

As we said, it's a $25 billion wall, so what exactly is $5 billion coming from? Why aren't we using -- if we have $5 billion just sitting around, why don't we use that to pay for our homeless veterans? Why don't we use that for educational reform? Why don't we use that for infrastructure?

What is this $5 billion going to? And look President Trump had plenty of slogans and three-word terms to fire up the crowd during the -- during the primaries, "Lock her up," "Drain the swamp, "Build the Wall."

CAVUTO: Well, they both did. They both did. They had a lot of slogans.

And I do get worried. I'm the business guy here, so excuse me for being a nerd, but I'm perfectly open to a commitment, a financial commitment, where you're going to get the money to pay for that, because, whatever the president's priorities, whatever Democrats' priorities, they have got to come up with money.

We're looking at a trillion-dollar deficit maybe year in and year out for at least the next four years. And no one gives that a second thought.

Ned, that's what worries me here.

RYUN: Yes.

No, I mean, we're at I think $22 trillion now on our national debt. I think we need to start prioritizing the interest of the American taxpayer. I'm still staggered. I'm not an isolationist at all, Neil, but when we're spending $50 billion a year on foreign aid, we should start -- just you know what?

Let's reduce it by half and build that southern wall. And coming back to what -- where are we going to get this money and the cost, if we're spending $116 billion to $134 billion a year already on illegal immigrants coming into the country, $25 billion seems to me to be a pretty small cost, a one-time cost, when over the next 10 years it could be a trillion dollars.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: No, no, here's what I'm just saying, is, someone, Ned, has got to come up with a plan to say, here's how I'm going to pay for this, here's my priority to pay for this, and not just sort of wish it out of a well, you know?

Liz?

RYUN: We need to have a bigger conversation about the wall of government and what we're actually spending.

CAVUTO: We never have that bigger conversation.

RYUN: I know.

HARRINGTON: The $5 billion is peanuts. I mean, we spend this $5 billion...

CAVUTO: Careful saying that, Liz. Careful saying that.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Everyone says it's peanuts, you can afford this, it's peanuts to you. And the Democrats argue, well, those aren't peanuts, and then back and forth. Republican says peanuts. It's nuts, quite literally.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRINGTON: Yes, but when you have seen Nancy Pelosi not want to spend our money?

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: I don't think it's a Democrat or Republican thing. You know what I think? They love to piss away money. Both sides are very good at it. And they exercised it before the American people today.

Priorities are one thing. This is another.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: We will have a lot more after this.

I do want to update you on this French shooting. It's been deemed a terrorist act now, what's going on in Strasbourg, France, a Christmas shopping mecca for those who travel to this region, one of the most popular in France.

We know that the guy who did this -- and it is a male identified here -- might have been wounded, but he's still on the lam. And they're worried because, besides the two people killed, eight others were wounded, and several critically so.

More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, when this was going on in the Oval Office -- and, remember, this is what they call a pool spray, so you, the public, everyone else, got it late.

So it was a few minutes after the conversation. But as they were talking with the president, talking about a government shutdown, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer not looking at the president, Vice President Pence doing his best to say, I want to get out of this room, but I'm stuck here, I'm joking, but to make the point that stocks were going down.

They were slip-sliding away on the view that, wait a minute, we're looking at a shutdown, all these unknowns, that's not good.

Who better to get a read of stocks that by the end of the day were down about 53 points, not that bad? So they were kind of nonplused by this.

I'm talking about right now Blackstone Private Wealth vice chairman, market legend -- he always insists on his title -- but, no, I call Byron Wien, that because, over the many decades I have known him, he's a Wall Street institution, has a good read, and doesn't get too crazy about what's going on in the worlds here or the markets.

But, A, good to see you, Byron.

And why were the markets ultimately shrugging their shoulders on the possibility of a government shutdown?

BYRON WIEN, BLACKSTONE PRIVATE WEALTH VICE CHAIRMAN: Because they don't think it'll last too long.

CAVUTO: Yes.

WIEN: And the background fundamentals are pretty strong.

And nobody really wants the shutdown to exist. Trump is going to do this because he wants to get this wall at any cost. And he's putting a gun to the head of the Democrats to achieve that. He promised the wall throughout the campaign.

CAVUTO: Well, first, the Mexicans were going to pay for it. Then he moved on to right what happens after the Mexicans.

WIEN: Right.

CAVUTO: But it's -- he's very insistent on it. But do you think -- it wouldn't be a full government shutdown. It would be a partial one.

But does Wall Street worry about that?

WIEN: Yes, Wall Street worries about it because a government shutdown is not good.

And disharmony between the Republicans and Democrats, to the extent that was shown on video this afternoon, is not a good thing. Look , we're always going to have Republican and Democrat disagreements, but to have Republican and Democrat hostility, that's not good.

CAVUTO: I have been looking at the markets closely -- not as closely as you, Byron -- but I always find that they move mostly on whether there's progress or lack thereof on the trade talks with China.

If it looks promising one day, they shoot up. If it looks like they're going to hell in a handbasket, they go down. So is that dictating at least near-term market momentum?

WIEN: Look, I think there are a number of factors, Neil, but I think the trade -- this trade dispute or possible trade war is a big factor.

If we could resolve this with China -- and both sides want a win here.

CAVUTO: Yes.

WIEN: China wants to do business with the U.S. We're their largest trading partner. We buy $500 billion worth of this stuff from them.

And this -- $500 billion in a $10 billion to $12 billion economy is a lot.

CAVUTO: No, you're right.

The president says, I'm the tariff man, I like tariffs. We get billions from them.

WIEN: Yes.

CAVUTO: The reality is, Byron, of course we pay those. Governments don't.

So the effect of that would be on us. But if he were to succeed and get some concessions -- the latest seem to be that the Chinese would lower tariffs on American automobiles and the like -- would that be good enough for the Street to say, oh, let's race to buy more stuff?

WIEN: The best tariffs are zero on both sides. Let's start with that.

So if the Chinese reduce the tariffs on autos from 40 to 15, that's a move towards zero. And we have to reciprocate. We have been in a mode where both sides were escalating the tariffs against each other.

So I think it would be a good thing if there were de-escalation on both sides.

CAVUTO: Now, I know you're too young on to remember this, but this bull market apparently is the longest in history, or among them. And I'm wondering whether you see it just sort of petering out.

WIEN: Bull markets die of excess. They don't die of old age.

CAVUTO: Is there any excess like we had a decade ago?

WIEN: Well, the big excess a decade ago was subprime loans.

CAVUTO: Right.

WIEN: We don't have that.

Now, people are worried about debt. But I don't think debt is an extreme. Corporate debt is less of a problem. Interest rates are low.

CAVUTO: Right.

WIEN: If interest rates were 6 percent, think about it -- in the year 2000, Neil, the accumulated debt of the United States from the republic inception in the 18th century until 2000 was $6 trillion.

CAVUTO: Wow.

WIEN: The blended interest rate was 6 percent.

Now the accumulated debt is $20 trillion and the blended interest rate is a little over 2. So we...

CAVUTO: You mentioned the blended interest rate too.

I raise that because now they are all seemingly in this flat wave that they all seem to presage a potential slowdown. Do you buy that?

WIEN: Yes, but the point is, we have tripled our debt, and our debt service has only gone up a little -- about 30 percent.

CAVUTO: So, you don't see any of the factors that would normally telegraph problems?

WIEN: I don't see any of the factors that would bring on a recession.

And the market usually anticipates a recession. I don't see another recession before 2021.

CAVUTO: This rally, the market since the president was elected, the recent sell-off notwithstanding, is it Barack Obama's or Donald Trump's?

WIEN: It's Donald Trump's.

He's had three major accomplishments in his presidency. He cut taxes. Very good for the economy. He dismantled regulation. Very good for the economy. He did a deal -- I mean, a year ago, we were all worried about going to war with North Korea.

CAVUTO: Right.

WIEN: How long has it been since you talked about North Korea in that sense on this program? A long time.

CAVUTO: Well put.

Byron, so good seeing you again.

WIEN: Great.

CAVUTO: I like your line when I said, you're looking good. What did you say, that the...

WIEN: Yes.

There are three stages in life, youth, middle age, and you're looking good.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Well, you are looking good.

Keep at it, my friend, Byron Wien, one of the calmest and the most profound gentlemen on Wall Street over so many years, so many cycles, bull and bear alike, recessions and strong surges as well, and a few presidents, I think, going back to Fillmore, right?

WIEN: Right.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: I'm kidding. All right, very good.

We do want to let that, on the Huawei CFO, we're waiting to find out whether Meng Wanzhou is going to be allowed to post bail. She wants out. And the Canadians right now are insisting that no bail be posted. That's important, because a Canadian diplomat was retained in China, sort of a tit for tat.

We're following these developments. As Byron would say, it's sort of shaking up this whole China trade story as well. We're on all of that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, the Google CEO was probably the one guy on the planet happy to have the spotlight not on him speaking before the House Judiciary Committee, because everyone was talking about what's going on in the Oval Office.

Google relieved -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: All right, attorneys for former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn have until the end of the day to respond to the special counsel Robert Mueller's sentencing memo.

Let's get the latest on this and so many other fronts with chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge -- hey, Catherine.

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Well, thank you, Neil.

We could get that filing from Flynn's attorneys at any time. And, of course, once we get a readout, we will bring that back to you.

But what we anticipate is really more of an explanation as to why they also believe that he has fully cooperated and is not worthy of any jail time. And we may also for the first time get some insight into what kind of hardship the special counsel investigation has presented for Michael Flynn's family.

A number of witnesses in the special counsel probe -- so these are people who aren't even targets -- have said to FOX News that they have spent upwards of $150,000 or $200,000 in legal fees. That is certainly the case for Flynn.

Also today, a short time ago, the lawyers for Paul Manafort, the president's former campaign chairman, left the court here in Washington, D.C., had a status hearing with the judge there, Amy Berman Jackson.

One of the important things that came out of that is that the federal judge wants more information before she decides whether she can side with the special counsel that Manafort has violated his plea agreement with the special counsel on a number of fronts, in particular his communications with the White House.

So, Manafort's team will see that as a win. The special counsel will also need to provide more information, Neil.

And I have to say, that "looking good" joke, I don't know about you, but I want to be looking good for as long as possible.

CAVUTO: He's got a great sense of humor.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: I have heard that line before myself. Reagan used to use it. My dad used to use it.

HERRIDGE: Well, you can't use it enough.

CAVUTO: Oh, no. I hear you. I hear you, Catherine.

HERRIDGE: OK.

CAVUTO: You don't have to worry about that, young lady.

HERRIDGE: Oh, well, you're nice to say that. You too, Neil.

CAVUTO: Thank you very -- oh, I wish that were true.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Let me see how the toupee is doing here.

All right, thank you, Catherine, very, very much.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: All right, let's get the read on all things Bob Mueller and what he's coming up with and all this stuff with that Manafort and Flynn.

Former federal prosecutor John Lauro.

John, on the Flynn stuff, now, Mueller has recommended no prison time. So he's obviously been deemed to be very, very cooperative with authorities and the Mueller probe.

What do you read into that and where this is going, because it's just the opposite when it comes to Manafort?

JOHN LAURO, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It really is.

And Mueller gave Flynn a gift. He basically said that Flynn has done everything I have asked of him, he's cooperated, he has been honest, he's been truthful.

So what I would see for Flynn is almost a guaranteed probation sentence. He's not going to jail. His sentencing guidelines are very low, zero to six months. So Flynn is in a sweet spot.

Manafort, on the other hand, is in deep, deep trouble. Mueller has said that he's not been honest, he's lied, he's said things that aren't true, he's not fully cooperated.

And, as a result, Mueller has taken the position that Manafort has breached his plea agreement, which means that he's now looking at almost, I would say, a guaranteed 10-year sentence. That's what Manafort faces right now.

CAVUTO: There are a lot of people reading into this where it's going towards the president or if it's heading toward the president.

I know these are sort of gut calls based on scant little snippets we get out on a day or days. What do you think?

LAURO: It's so hard to tell, because when you look at Mueller's filings, they have mostly black bands across them, so you can't read what they're saying. They're all filed in a way that really doesn't disclose too much.

But one thing Mueller has done is kind of teased everyone by saying that Flynn has cooperated in a substantial way in matters relating to the investigation over collusion. So Mueller, for whatever reason, has really signaled that Flynn has provided information that could affect the president.

CAVUTO: What's interesting in the discussions with Michael Cohen, his former personal lawyer, and drawing the president into this Moscow stuff, and building a Trump Tower there, and talking to the Russians, then the separate issue of paying off these -- these two women, is that the inference was that campaign funds were being used for that, which would of course be a big problem.

But who's to say campaign funds were used? The president insists it's private money. What do you think of that? Because I think that many just leapt to a conclusion that might be faulty.

LAURO: Yes, the issue with Cohen is whether or not Trump Organization funds, corporate funds were used for these payments, and therefore they had to be disclosed as some kind of campaign contribution.

It's a real technical campaign issue, very similar to the case that was brought against John Edwards years ago, you may remember, and that case went down in flames.

So these kinds of technical issues, technical campaign issues, are usually handled on the civil side with a fine, rather than on the criminal side.

CAVUTO: Yes, a lot of it, the jury couldn't come to a conclusion, so the whole case was ultimately dropped there. Right?

LAURO: That's right. That's right.

CAVUTO: OK. Thank you very much, John.

LAURO: Thank you.

CAVUTO: John Lauro follows this stuff very, very well.

Per our Capitol Hill reporter, Mike Emanuel, we're learning now that House Republicans are saying that they're going to put the president's $5 billion border request as a bill on the floor. It's a way of showing, they say, according to Mike, support for the president.

The sources are also telling Mike that they're saying it is under consideration. The leadership thinks that it can pass. A senior Republican aide telling FOX moments go, "Our whips are confident we could pass the $5 billion."

Now, the president has argued that. The argument against that was that, in the past, other attempts have failed and weren't even launched, for fear that there wasn't enough support between conservatives and Freedom Caucus members, who were leery of doubling down on the spending and the debt associated with this, and moderates who felt that this wasn't the way to go, period.

But now, in a show his support for a president in the waning days of this particular Congress, they might take this under -- under issue and decide, well, here it is, Mr. President, our final gift to you, as we leave the majority of the United States House.

More after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have a lot of people that want the job of chief of staff. So we'll be seeing what happens very soon. We're in no rush. We're in no rush.

QUESTION: Why no rush, Mr. President?

TRUMP: Why? Because we have a wonderful chief of staff right now. There's just no -- we are in no rush. Over a period of a week or two, or maybe less, we'll announce who it's going to be, but we have a lot of people that want the position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: All right, did you notice Chuck Schumer's little chuckle there as the president says, we have a lot of people who want this position?

Well, the president, we're told, is looking at a number of options for that chief of staff post, as John Kelly, General John Kelly, looks to step down by the end of the year. So that was news to us to hear that General Kelly might stay on longer, potentially stay on longer, if that was the implication.

So far, there no signs of that.

Let's get the read on it from Axios political reporter Shannon Vavra.

Shannon, what do you make of this? Where is this search going?

SHANNON VAVRA, AXIOS: President Trump can definitely say that he wants to throw cold water on this and that there's plenty of people interested, but as our reporting at Axios shows, and as my colleague Jonathan Swan scooped this weekend, one of the main folks whose was in the running for this, Nick Ayers, who used to be the chief of staff to Mike Pence, was really the top man for President Trump.

And, normally, the way that President Trump deals with staff shakeups is, he has tons of irons in the fire. That's not the case this time, so this is really a different situation than many of the other staff shakeups that have happened. Upwards of 30 people have not departed this administration.

CAVUTO: But it could it, be in the case of Ayers, that the president wanted a commitment of two years -- he has 6-year-old triplets, I believe - - and he was in no sort of a mood for that, and that sort of turned things upside down, because the president thought it was a given that he was the guy, and then he pulled the rug out from under him?

What are you hearing?

VAVRA: And a lot of folks are reporting that it was a surprise for the president.

But, as our reporting shows, there were conversations behind the scenes between Nick Ayers and the president about how Nick Ayers wasn't really on board with a two-year commitment, he wanted to leave sometime in the spring instead.

And we also know that the president, from our reporting, wasn't particularly happy with that. He didn't like the fact that Ayers wanting to announce a timeline for serving as chief of staff. And we also know that Nick Ayers was saying, you deserve someone to serve you for two years as chief of staff.

So now we know that the president has been talking with confidants about the House Freedom Caucus chairman, Mark Meadows, and whether he should be chief of staff.

CAVUTO: Yes, how serious is that? Obviously, Meadows is interested. He's made that clear. And now the president apparently is at least open to the idea.

How real is that?

VAVRA: It's the only one that Axios has been able to confirm. We know there are three other folks in the running, based on our reporting.

But, also, Mark Meadows, his public comments have been positive about it. He said he would be honored, he's honored to be in the running for it. But it's not necessarily him coming out and saying, I definitely want this job right now.

CAVUTO: Who are the other three? I know Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor and presidential candidate, is among them. Who else?

VAVRA: So, there are not three that we have been able to confirm yet.

CAVUTO: OK.

VAVRA: But some other outlets have been reporting that it's Steve Mnuchin, Robert Lighthizer, or Mick Mulvaney.

CAVUTO: Well, both of those apparently passed on it, saying that they would be more effective in their Treasury and trade positions, respectively.

VAVRA: And the big picture here is, a lot of folks are trying to scramble around and figure out who the president is going to have as chief of staff next.

If really John Kelly is departing by the end of the year, that's less than, what, 20 days away now at this point? And the clock is ticking. And on the other hand, it just goes to show us that the president really was depending on Nick Ayers to be his chief of staff, and now everyone's scrambling around to figure out what's next.

CAVUTO: Yes, his sudden switch did startle the president. That's very clear.

Great reporting, as always, Shannon, and you and the Axios folks. Thank you very, very much.

VAVRA: Thank you.

CAVUTO: All right, well, the president says that, hell or high water, I'm going to get that $5 billion, but the gap between what Democrats are proposing and where he wants it to be is about $3.5 billion.

Now, we have a $4 trillion federal budget, not that it would all be sacrificed here, but is $3.5 billion worth tossing $4 trillion or shutting even some of the government down?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAVUTO: This just into our newsroom.

Apparently, Stormy has to come up with some money. A judge has ordered Stormy Daniels to pay President Trump $293,000 in attorney's fees for her rejected defamation lawsuit.

We will keep you posted whether she has any comments on that -- or the president, for that matter.

Let's go to Democratic Congressman from Illinois Raja Krishnamoorthi on this shutdown talk.

Congressman, very good to have you. Thanks for taking the time.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, D-Ill.: Hey, thank you.

CAVUTO: Do you think we're going to get a shutdown?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I sure hope not.

I hope we don't repeat the spectacle of today. I was a small businessman before I came to Congress. Whenever I did a negotiation or deal with anybody, I never invited cameras into a room.

I think we should get behind some closed doors, hash things out, and come up with a plan, and move forward.

CAVUTO: Is anyone keeping track of all the money we're spending, Congressman?

Because whether it's $5 billion for a border wall, and whether it be perfectly valid for the president to push for that, or some of your Democratic colleagues and a number of other measures, but we're looking at a trillion-dollar deficit and maybe trillion-dollar deficits for a few years running, maybe longer.

Who is watching the kitty here?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: You know, I'm very concerned about this.

Basically, my humble request would be, let's not spend any money -- any more money on a wall. Let's just do a continuing resolution, which means level-spend or go one more year, and we can hopefully hash things out in the next year.

But let's not shut the government down. That's just a bad idea.

CAVUTO: All right, so when the White House responds that Democrat seem more intent on keeping the government open, when we have this open border, you say?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think that we absolutely should enhance border security. We're a nation of laws, and we have borders. We have to secure them, absolutely.

But...

CAVUTO: But we're not doing that, right? We're not doing it.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: But, at the same time, as you could see in American sentiment, 69 percent of Americans do not want a wall. They don't want a 20-foot wall.

Maybe we have some enhanced border protection.

CAVUTO: Well, those polls are all over the map. You're quite right.

But, obviously, Americans are paying the bill for anything, right, and everything. And I'm just wondering whether that can continue.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I personally -- and, again, as a small businessperson, we had to make ends meet. I think the government should do the same.

CAVUTO: All right.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think that we should come together on this, Neil.

CAVUTO: There's a concept.

Congressman, thank you for taking the time.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.

CAVUTO: Appreciate the business insight as well.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you, sir.

CAVUTO: All right.

All right, the guy who was able to say, you know what, I'm glad they had that dustup at the White House, because you didn't have to search my name on Capitol Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO: Bet you didn't know that Google's CEO was on Capitol Hill today. That's probably just the way he would have liked it.

Gillian Turner with how that all went down -- Gillian.

GILLIAN TURNER, CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Neil.

Members of the House Judiciary Committee came to this hearing today with their knives sharpened, knowing this might be their only bite at the Apple for a very long time.

Their top agenda item? Political bias. Republicans roundly criticizing the search engine for having what they call an anti-conservative bent.

And at least one Democrat taking the opposing view, claiming the engine overemphasizes conservative media outlets.

Google CEO Sundar Pichai did his best, though, to provide assurances.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUNDAR PICHAI, GOOGLE CEO: I lead this company without political bias and work to ensure that our products continue to operate that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TURNER: He also told lawmakers Google has never and will never sell its users' data to third parties and that, when it comes to the company's top secret project Dragonfly that's with China, there's nothing cooking.

He acknowledged for the first time that, though Google had spent months custom-tailoring a search engine for China, they have got no plans to launch it.

So now lots of big promises coming from Google today, but little by way of specifics on how they plan to navigate these issues in the future -- Neil.

CAVUTO: I'm betting he was relieved, though, the president was creating this distraction with Nancy and Chuck at the White House, right?

TURNER: Best thing that could have happened to him.

CAVUTO: Yes.

All right, Gillian, I'm sorry for the tightened time.

TURNER: You got it.

CAVUTO: Thank you very, very much, Gillian Turner on Capitol Hill, how it all went down.

All right, again, we're going to have this bail hearing coming up in Canada for the CFO of Huawei. And, of course, that could go a long way to decide how this whole trade dispute goes between ourselves and the Chinese, who have already taken a top Chinese -- or Canadian official there to question.

"The Five" is now.

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