Graham: We do not need a war over the wall

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Graham: We do not need a war over the wall

South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham weighs in on the border wall battle ahead of Trump's State of the Union, and whether we should expect the president to issue a national emergency over border security.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," February 4, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: After the shutdown and with 10 days until it could happen again, the president tomorrow night will stand before the American people and a sharply divided Congress to make his case for the State of our Union. Look for a push for the wall tomorrow night. Of course, perhaps, a new developments on North Korea. And a forceful statement on the growing economy on the wake of a very good jobs report that the Wall Street Journal called, "A bad day in certain media and political precincts."

And when it comes to the wall, it may be Democrats who disagree with Nancy Pelosi on this, who make up the most important audience for the president tomorrow night.

Senator Lindsey Graham, urging fellow Republicans to stand firmly with the president on this. Moments ago, I sat down with the Senator.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: -- Senator Graham, good to you have here tonight. Thanks for being here.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C., SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Thank you so much. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Who do you think is going to win the politics on the wall? And what do you expect from the president tomorrow night on that?

GRAHAM: Well, I think, shutting the government down is not a good way to get the wall built. The best way to get the wall built is to work with Democrats if they will work with the Republicans to build the wall and do some other things.

But it doesn't look like Nancy Pelosi is going to give Democrats much space. So, if I were the president, what I would do is use the power of commander in chief to go down to the border, not just send troops but actually erect barriers. What's the difference between a soldier being sent to secure the border, and a soldier being sent to put up barrier to secure the border? Legally none.

To my Republican colleagues, we do not need a war over the wall. The Democrats are pushing back to the president. The last thing we need is Republicans is for us to undercut his ability to go alone if he has to.

MACCALLUM: You know it's interesting. When you look back at what he said on the wall in last year's State of the Union, this is what he said, watch this.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: For over 30 years, Washington has tried and failed to solve this problem. This Congress can be the one that finally makes it happen.

MACCALLUM: So that was a year ago. Then, the midterm election happened.

GRAHAM: Right.

MACCALLUM: Now you've got a much more difficult calculus. And if he does declare a national emergency, Nancy Pelosi could force a vote on whether or not that is proper.

GRAHAM: Right.

MACCALLUM: Whether or not Congress goes along with it. That could put some Republicans in a pretty tough spot.

GRAHAM: Well, I won't be one of them because I believe the president has all the power in the world to -- as commander in chief, to secure the border. President Obama sent troops to the border, President Bush sent troops to the border. President Trump is now sending troops to the border.  Nobody complained when Obama did it. So, what's the difference between 3,700 people going down to the border to deal with a caravan that's coming our way and while they're there, erecting barriers where it makes sense.

So, to my Republican colleagues, if the Democrats won't give him but $1 for the wall, and we cut his legs out from under him as commander in chief, what is he to do? I hope we will not do that.

MACCALLUM: You know, when you look at the Gallup Poll, 60 percent opposed the wall. So, Democrats feel like they're in the right spot, politically.  60 percent support border security. The wall has become hard to define.  If you talking about a concrete barrier, most people don't support it. If you're talking about barriers that make sense, a lot of support.

So, support for the wall has actually gone up. Shutting the government down was not the right way to build the wall, we learned that. But the $5.7 billion, Martha, is what it costs to take the top 10 locations where we need a barrier and build it. We just didn't make that number up.

If you ask the Border Patrol, the Department of Homeland Security, where the top 10 places you need a barrier? They told us the top 10 and it comes to five-seven.

MACCALLUM: I want to play Chuck Schumer -- Senator Schumer on the Senate floor today. Watch this.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: The State of our Union is in need of drastic repair. The state of the Trump administration and how he runs the government, chaos. It is sad, the State of the Union.

MACCALLUM: Your response.

GRAHAM: Well, I think the president will lay out an economic agenda that's worked. Remember the Obama years, who wants to go back to that? You had high taxes and low growth. What's happened in the last two years?

We've rebuilt the military, we're about to destroy the caliphate, we've cut taxes. The average worker has more pay in their paycheck. The economy is growing faster than even I envisioned. So, economically, domestically, we're doing good overseas, we're stronger than we've ever been, and this president is determined to build a wall that Chuck Schumer voted for.

In 2013, Senator Schumer working with me voted for $46 billion of border security. $9 billion went to a barrier.

MACCALLUM: It -- I mean, it's my (INAUDIBLE).

GRAHAM: Stunning.

MACCALLUM: It's so much more money than what's on the table right now.  You say, you know, taxes have been caught, the economy is doing well, but interestingly, some Democrats who are considering running for president all think that it's a great idea to raise taxes dramatically, and the new Fox poll shows that 70 percent of the people polled think that yes, it's a great idea to tax people who make over $10 million -- incomes over a million. 65 percent say that that's a great idea.

GRAHAM: Well, to get the nomination to be the Democratic -- to be -- to become the Democratic nominee, you have to go to Venezuela, not America, to get the nomination.

All the policies they're talking about are being enacted in Venezuela and they don't work. When you ask the American people, what's the right number to take in taxes from anybody, state and federal combined? It's about 35 percent.

So, what the Democrats are doing, they are chasing the hardest of the left in their party, abolish ICE, building a wall is immoral even though we have walls already built. 90 percent tax rates on people creating jobs. I am confident that Medicare for all means Medicare for nobody.

So, if you're out there watching, and you just signed up for Medicare, the Democrats are going to invite 80 million of their closest friends to come in on a program you work for all your life. This is going to blow up in their face, Trump is going to win.

MACCALLUM: You know, on Iraq and Syria, I went back and looked at the speech from last time.

GRAHAM: Yes.

MACCALLUM: The president talked about the fact that, that there is much more work to be done in Syria. He said we will continue our fight until ISIS is defeated. On Afghanistan, he said along with our heroic Afghan partners, our military is no longer undermined by artificial timelines.  And we will no longer tell our enemies our plans.

If you could give the president one message and perhaps you have about what you'd like to hear on this tomorrow night, what is it?

GRAHAM: When it comes to Syria, tell us what happens when the caliphates destroyed. Mr. President, you've done a good job. The Caliphate is almost destroyed. How do you keep them from coming back if we leave Syria? How do you keep Iran from taking over? And how do we protect the Kurds and keep them from having a war in Turkey?

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: You saying we can -- we can do it all from our wonderful base in Iraq.

GRAHAM: Well, to be honest with you, there is a plan being developed to post ISIS. That allows us to stabilize Syria so the Iranians don't take over. Turkey and the Kurds don't go to war. It would be mostly an international force a few of us. So, I'll give president credit. Give him credit where credit's due.

He did something Obama didn't do. He's droving the Taliban to the negotiating table. How did he do that? We've been hitting them hard for the last two years. Peace is possible now in Afghanistan because the way the president has engaged the Taliban that --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: What you say to those who say, "We've been there for 17 years.  Why should we lose one more life?" One more American lives in Afghanistan.

GRAHAM: If you don't understand but now, what happens when you leave these places you're not following? On September the 10th, 2001, we didn't have one soldier in Afghanistan. We didn't have an embassy. We didn't have an ambassador. Not one dime of aid, we got hit anyway because they let radical Islamist occupy the territory who are not going to surrender.

There is no deal to be done with ISIS or al-Qaeda, you have to keep them from coming here. The reason our soldiers are there in Afghanistan is a wall between us and the terrorist in Afghanistan. Why are we in Syria? Is make sure that ISIS is pinned down over there so they can't come here.

President Trump has done a lot with the future. For -- to those who think that they're tired of fighting you because you're tired of fighting them, you really don't know the enemy.

MACCALLUM: North Korea, real quick. Last time, the president had a defector who had lost his leg leaving North Korea.

GRAHAM: Right, yes.

MACCALLUM: Are we going to hear tomorrow night that there's a new date and a new meeting?

GRAHAM: I think what we're going to hear is there is going to be a new meeting. To all those who criticize the president, how well did you do with rocket men? Every president before Trump is sort of let this get out of hand. There's no place for him to kick the can. So, keep talking Mr. President.

No missiles have been fired, no bombs have been exploded since Trump's taking a firm stand. I'm looking for a breakthrough. It only comes through negotiation. But he's got to convince Kim Jong-un that you got two options. You're better off without nuclear weapons versus having them because he's not going to let Kim Jong-un threat America with a nuclear arsenal that could actually hit us through a missile being developed as we speak.

So, I'm hopeful the second round of negotiations will be produced some results. But to the president, you're doing things no other president has done when it comes to North Korea. Keep it up.

MACCALLUM: Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you. Good to see you tonight.

GRAHAM: Thank you. A lot going on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: A lot going on is absolutely right. So on the heels of the Virginia governor's racist photo controversy, the state's lieutenant governor is now calling for his own resignation after a 14-year old sexual assault allegation surfaced.

This is the new age of political warfare when a story can spread like wildfire in a social media minute. Governor Mike Huckabee with his thoughts, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So, this is how it works these days in politics. Virginia's governor made some comments about abortion that got him in instantaneous hot water as the video went viral.

And within days, a picture that sat dormant for 35 years suddenly surfaced when it looked like Governor Northam might have to resign. Suddenly, another story comes to light. This time, it is about the man who would replace him as lieutenant governor.

It's an allegation of sexual misconduct from 14 years ago, and it landed by message on Facebook. The allegation cropped up in 2017 also. But it was dug into by the Washington Post. They declined to run the story. They felt that it was not corroborated enough for them to go with and that there was no similar history of that kind of behavior by Fairfax. Here now former Governor Mike Huckabee, also a Fox News Contributor. Good to have you with us tonight, Governor. This is the age of political warfare that we live in.

MIKE HUCKABEE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: It really is, Martha. And you know, I was thinking about getting back in the game myself but then when I couldn't buy up all my old high school yearbooks that all my classmates had, I decided not to.

I'm being a little facetious but we're living in an age in which I'm not sure anybody can or would want to run for public office unless there's such a megalomaniac that they just don't care what somebody might dig up about them. And the worst part is not what might be true, it's what might not be true but there's no way to disprove it.

And we're living at a time where we've thrown out the conventions of really what American jurisprudence is all about and that is you're innocent until proven guilty and you're entitled to due process. And we're kind of just saying nope, if you're accused you're guilty until you can prove that you didn't do it.

MACCALLUM: Well, I'm curious what you think about --

HUCKABEE: That's one of the chilling effects on people wanting to run.

MACCALLUM: What do you think about what happened with Governor Northam?  Do you think he needs to resign?

HUCKABEE: I think that's for him and his own party to decide. And quite frankly his party is already decide or decided that he's got to go. I think his biggest problem was one day coming out and saying I regret I was in that photo, shouldn't have done it. The next day saying that wasn't me in the photo. I mean, if you've got to defend something, defend it vigorously from the beginning.

MACCALLUM: I think people find that hard to swallow.

HUCKABEE: Yes.

MACCALLUM: This then -- you know, so then this other story crops up which you know, as I said had surfaced earlier about his lieutenant governor, the person who would take over for him. You know, he was asked today as it started to leak out the idea that potentially governor Northam people had pushed that story out to make it unviable for him to take over and watch what he said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR JUSTIN FAIRFAX, D-VA.: I don't know precisely where this is coming from. And you know, we've heard different things but here's the thing. Does anybody think it's any coincidence that on the eve of potentially my being elevated that that's when this uncorroborated smear comes out? Does anybody believe that's a coincidence? I don't I don't think anybody believes that's a coincidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Do you think that's a coincidence, Governor Huckabee?

HUCKABEE: It's a little hard to swallow that it's a coincidence having just surfaced publicly especially when the Washington Post had this information before. They didn't act upon it because they couldn't find enough to corroborate it. And I think it's kind of tough when he's saying vigorously that what happened was consensual and there's no corroborating evidence from the person or from that person's friends. There was no police report filed. There was no indication and it just sounds like something that is an accusation.

You know, I get it. We're living in today of always believed the woman but we also need to live in the day of believing everyone until there is some true evidence that has veracity otherwise none of us can live in our culture anymore because we can easily be accused and we can't prove we didn't do something just because somebody pointed a finger at us and said you know what, I remember something from 30 years ago, ten years ago, 15 years ago. Its destructive to our ability to attract people to run for office.

MACCALLUM: You know, I mean when you look back at this. It's some -- David French wrote a peace in the National Review today saying that it should be -- that the measure should be a preponderance of evidence. If it's more likely than not that this event happened and he's saying in this case this woman has a date, she has a place about where this happened, he has said that it was consensual, she has said that it wasn't consensual. I mean, you know, at some point you have to come up with a measure that works in this. And I would also point out that preponderance of evidence is the measure that's been used on college campuses and it has gotten a tremendous amount of backlash.

HUCKABEE: Well, the preponderance evidence needs to be that there's something said about it at the time the event occurred. I think if you wait 14 years, if you don't tell your friends, if you don't tell your parents, if you don't tell the police, the proper authority if you feel like you've been assaulted, I mean that's where this has to go.

And I think we've got to say to our sons and our daughters that if you feel like someone has committed a crime against you, immediately tell the authorities. File a police report. Let them investigate it. If they don't find enough that warrants a charge, that's one thing, but you can't wait 15, 20, 30 years and then say I remember now that that was really an assault, not just a consensual experience.

MACCALLUM: Before I let you go, we're obviously here for the State of the Union tomorrow night. Your thoughts on what you really would like to hear from the President. What do you think he needs to say?

HUCKABEE: You know, I hope he will be as conciliatory as possible knowing that it's going to be utterly rejected. Let the contrast be seen very clearly that the Democrats are obstinate, that this is not about protecting our borders and securing a more peaceful environment for the American people. This is just about rubbing his nose in it. And I think when people see that they're going to come to support the President and appreciate that he wants to protect us which is his job.

MACCALLUM: Mike Huckabee, Governor, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.

HUCKABEE: Great to see you, Martha. So the nominee to replace Brett Kavanaugh on the D.C. Appeals Court is going to be having her confirmation hearing tomorrow. But is she about to walk into the same level of scrutiny as the judge she is seeking to replace. Senators Kennedy and Klobuchar both sit on that Senate Judiciary Committee. They join me on D.C. coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: One of the biggest accomplishments as far as conservatives are concerned of the Trump Presidency is the far-reaching impact on the courts.  Two new conservative Supreme Court justices have bent the curve to the right on the Supreme Court and the President has appointed 83 judges to the lower courts as well. Now, this woman Neomi Rao will have her hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee tomorrow.

She was nominated to replace now Justice Kavanaugh on the D.C. Circuit of Circuit Court of Appeals as the second highest court in the land. But already The Wall Street Journal and Politico say that they think that she may be about to get the Kavanaugh treatment for her conservative writings and her work to shrink bureaucracy as Head of President Trump's Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs.

Here now Senator -- Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana and Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. Both are members of that Senate Judiciary Committee. They will question Rao they are also the co- sponsors of a bill that would strengthen privacy on the Internet and we want to ask them about that tonight as well. Great to have both of you here.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR, D-MINN.: Thank you, Martha.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY, R-LA.: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Thank you very much for being here. What are your thoughts, first of all, on Neomi Rao? Are you concerned that she might have a tough time and what kind of questions do you want -- do you have for her?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, you know, these hearings, the purpose of them is to ask questions and ask tough questions. You got to understand someone -- certainly, Senator Kennedy knows that from some of the questions he's asked. And I have not favored this nominee in the past because I think one thing that your listeners should know about is that in fact, this is someone that favors executive power at all costs. She wants to get rid of the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau and I'm sure you have some people that are watching that are big fans but it is brought back $12 billion for the consumers of America.

So I have some questions to ask about that as well as her views on executive power and a number of these nominees share those views.

MACCALLUM: She has -- just to give people some background on this candidate, she clerked for Justice Thomas. She also worked for President Bush 43. And as I said, she currently is running this Trump administration arm of the OMB which has been focused on cutting regulation and a lot of people credit that, Senator Kennedy, for helping to stimulate the economy.

There are writings from 1994 that are also considered to be problematic from college. She said that a good way to avoid a potential date rape is to stay reasonably sober and if she drinks to the point where she can no longer choose, well, getting to that point was part of her choice. Knowing where we went in the Kavanaugh hearing, is it likely that this is going to be digging back to 1994 as well?

KENNEDY: I don't know yet. I'm going to do what I always do. I'm just going to ask tough questions. I don't know the nominee. She's impressive on paper. Yale undergrad, Chicago Law, she's a former professor, she has government experience. I want to test her judicial temperament. I won't test her knowledge of the law. I want to make sure she can be impartial.

She will bring as all good nominees do points of view to the -- to the confirmation hearing. That's OK. You want a nominee to have a point of view. If they're nominated to a federal judgeship and they haven't thought about issues in the world, they're not qualified to sit on the bench. The real issue for me is whether she can put aside her personal beliefs and follow the law and that's what I'll be getting.

MACCALLUM: There's some speculation that she could be considered if there is another opening on the Supreme Court, what do you think about that Senator Klobuchar?

KLOBUCHAR: Again, I have a poster in the past for another position, her current position and I think we need judges in place that do follow the law, and I find some of her views on things and they're not all the way back from law school or other times, some of them are very current. I just don't see that kind of even-handedness that I'd like to see in a judge.

KENNEDY: My standard is pretty simple for all judges whether they're Democrats, Republicans, Independents. I want a judge who would tell us what the law is not what the law ought to be. That's the role of the of the Congress. I don't expect to judge to be a super legislator. The law is not supposed to be politics practiced a different way. You're supposed to be a judge. You're supposed to call the balls on the strikes.

MACCALLUM: (INAUDIBLE) should convince both sides as that she enters this job in a new vein as a judge and leaves some of those -- perhaps some of those ideas in the background as she takes on each one of these judicial issues. I want to talk to both of you about your Internet Privacy Act that you're working on together. Here is one of the -- one of the highlight moments from Mark Zuckerberg testimony when he was before the Senate not too long ago. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Your user agreement sucks. I'm going to suggest to you that you go back home and re-write it. But tell them you want it written in English in non-Swahili so the average American can understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: I think most people feel like the cat is so far out of the bag on this stuff. It's impossible to imagine how you put this genie back in the bottle and get people their privacy back. Senator Klobuchar?

KLOBUCHAR: I think our laws have to be as sophisticated as the data that they are collecting in the way they're doing business. For so long they have been telling us, hey, trust us, trust us. And meanwhile, they have been collecting everyone's information and their private e-mails and their texts.

MACCALLUM: But we were checking the box and letting them do it.

KLOBUCHAR: Exactly. So that's why --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Because the agreement was, as you say --

KLOBUCHAR: Yes. Our bill --

MACCALLUM: -- you said it sucked. I think you might be right.

KLOBUCHAR: And we came together across the aisle. We may not agree on every judge, but we agree on this. And that is that we should protect American's privacy. And what our bill simply does is say, hey, it's got to be in plain language. You should be able to opt out if you don't want to have your data shared.

And then if there is a breach like what we just saw in the last week with Apple or what we saw with Facebook several months over the last few months is that you've got to find out about it within 72 hours. And even Zuckerberg himself at the hearing when I asked him does that make sense to you, he said yes, it does.

MACCALLUM: You know, I think it's so generational on this. I think that, you know, some people don't -- they are very uncomfortable with their private information getting out there. And then I talk to younger people who say, you know, I'm okay with it as the contract. You know, I don't care when ads pop-up when I'm into something.

KENNEDY: But some day they will be uncomfortable. And I didn't want to be here, Martha. I didn't have to regulate my Facebook. But here's what we find. Facebook is no longer a company. It's a country, 2 billion users, $40 billion in cashflow. They influence what we think. How we vote. What we buy, even how we feel.

Now, Facebook says, yes, but you give your consent. No, you don't. Have you -- their terms and conditions, you could hide a dead body in there and you'd never find. Nobody understands even -- if they read it, nobody understands. It's not informed consent.

And we have waited -- I've waited for Facebook to step up to the plate and say, OK, we recognize the problem. Here's to suggest its solution. And all they've done is deny, install, reinstall, then they apologize, and then say they would do better. But you have to judge them by their deeds not their word.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, their anniversary is 15 years ago today. And I thought, wow, life has changed a lot in the last 15 years since the advent of social media and so much that we have given up in the realm of our privacy. And you know, I wonder if people start -- as I was saying, you know, they stop looking things up because you know if you look something up that you might want to shop for the ads are going to follow you for the next week and a half.

KLOBUCHAR: And this is for the good of the citizens but also the companies because these are fantastic companies. They have incredibly changed the way that we can interact and made it easier to talk to people. But at the same time, you've got players that aren't looking out for us. You've got they can't track their own data.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: They don't -- you know, if Congress fixes (ph) all these, I think they are just going to figure out ways to get around it.

KLOBUCHAR: I think that what we are trying to do is just give citizens some power here to say I -- we know you can do all of this stuff to me, but I don't want you to do it. And I want to take back some of my power over my own information so you can't do it.

MACCALLUM: And then they are going to say well, you can't talk to your friends. You can't see your friends' photos unless you check the box and you just, you know, you're going to -- not have --

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Not if they have competition. Not if they have competition. And we'll have -- maybe have to address that --

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: And I trust --

KENNEDY: -- and through another venue. All I am looking for -- all I'm looking, if people want to give up all of their data in exchange for being able to see what their friends had for dinner Saturday night, that's OK.  But it's got to be informed consent. And it's not informed consent right now.

MACCALLUM: Well, it's great to see --

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: People have no idea.

MACCALLUM: -- you're all working together on it. Senator Klobuchar, thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: -- from Louisiana --

MACCALLUM: From Minnesota to Louisiana, Senator Kennedy, thank you.

KENNEDY: Two great states.

KLOBUCHAR: All right.

MACCALLUM: Good to have you both here. Thanks a lot. Hope you come back soon.

KLOBUCHAR: Thanks.

MACCALLUM: We'll be watching.

All right, coming up next, murder in broad daylight at the hands of MS-13.  This is an unbelievably awful scene caught on tape. We'll show you what happened here and talk about the rest of it when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY, D-VT.: -- a real effort to reach a conclusion. We've got senior Republicans and senior Democrats. I know and I trust them all. I think certainly in the Senate, we could wrap this up fairly easily.

We want to get something that can get a strong bipartisan agreement. And we have to get it done by the end of this week because you have to get the paper and work on every file. I think -- I feel more confident today than I might have a few days ago. I think we are working hard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Well, that sounds pretty interesting and promising. Senator Patrick Leahy, longtime senator from Vermont, saying they're getting somewhere on the whole issue of a border deal so we'll see how that how that pans out and see if he's right.

All right. And now this. Police in New York City are investigating a murder that was caught on camera. They say it was committed by a member of the illegal immigrant gang MS-13.

Trace Gallagher live from our West Coast newsroom with this story. Good evening, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha.

The fight actually began on board a subway train bound for Manhattan. When the train stopped in Queens, those involved in the deadly fight spilled onto the platform. Other passengers scrambled to get on the other cars or out of the subway altogether.

The man who took this video, which police say is authentic, was also on the train but stepped out and began recording. It shows the victim struggling with his attackers, which could be two or three men, but the man on the gray jacket and colorful scarf appears to have a gun. And as the victim tries to grab it, the shots begin. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNSHOTS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Yes. In all five or six shots were fired and the victim who was hit in the face fell. He was pronounced dead at the scene. Other bystanders who were trying to up the fight, but a witness says a transit worker refused to step in and that may have cost the victim his life.

The attackers all fled from the subway. And again, police initially were looking for two men, but the video shows there may have been a third today.

Today the 26-year-old alleged gunman was arrested. His name has not been released and the murder weapon not found, but police said the man is a member of the brutally violent MS-13 street gang and is known to police. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERMOT SHEA, CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: We have done a number of cases involving MS-13. It involved a myriad of criminal activities to include drug dealing of multiple drugs, burglaries, et cetera. And in one of those prior cases, the individual we have in custody came up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: The chief went on to say the suspect was likely targeting a rival gang member.

President Trump has repeatedly highlighted the horrific and violent tactics of MS-13 a a way of pushing for a border barrier. The MS-13 gang originated in El Salvador, later created a stronghold here in Los Angeles and is now spread across the country. Martha.

MACCALLUM: It's out of control. Awful. Trace, thank you very much. Coming up next, brand-new polls show what Democrats are looking for in 2020, and it might not be exactly what the parties currently selling. Marie Harf and Richard Fowler on the potential reboot that could be in the works.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So today is February 4th and next year on this day is the Iowa caucuses, if you can believe it. Here's what the GOP debate look like. Remember back then Iowa, look at all these people on stage so many candidates. So, what do we expect this time around? Probably also a lot of candidates, the sort of the narrative has flipped over to the Democratic side when we look ahead here.

So, some of what is going on in terms of the messages, tax the rich which is enormously popular according to the polls. Medicare for all is also one of the big themes that we're seeing. But new polling suggests that what most Democrat voters want is someone who can beat Donald Trump. That makes sense for Democrat. Electability is their top priority.

Here to discuss all this Marie Harf, Fox News analyst and co-host of Benson and Harf, and Richard Fowler, Fox News contributor and nationally syndicated radio talk show host. And they've never been on together, they told me.

RICHARD FOWLER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Never.

MACCALLUM: You guys getting along so far?

FOWLER: Oh, yes.

MARIE HARF, FOX NEWS ANALYST AND RADIO CO-HOST: It was great. Yes.

MACCALLUM: All right. So, let's take a look -- I want you to look at the most recent look at the expected candidates. And Joe Biden is at the top of this list, 29 percent. I mean, I think most of that is name recognition, right, Richard?

FOWLER: I think of it is name recognition. I think part of it is also what Joe Biden stands for in the party, right? So, if you talk to party officials or party elders or even party faithful they will say, well, Joe Biden stand for somebody who is reasonable somebody who is understandable, somebody who is electable and somebody who appeals to the old school Democrats, somebody who also appeals to the Obama Democrats because he was on the Obama ticket both in 2008 and 2012. People like them.

MACCALLUM: It's weird because, you know, in the polls he's run a couple of times before and he was always down like 2 or 3 percent. He was always at the very bottom of those polls but now he's at the top, Marie.

HARF: Well, I do think a lot of it is name I.D. And eight years as being vice president certainly will do that for you. I also think we're in a different political world today. When he was running in the past, Donald Trump never would've pulled higher than probably 2 or 3 or 4 percent.

I also think Joe Biden speaks to the kind of voters Democrats know they need to get back, in the upper Midwest, in the rustbelt, in states like Pennsylvania. It's Democrats -- people who used to vote democratic, right? Union members, white men, particularly white women sort of that middle class that Democrats lost to Donald Trump, Joe Biden appeals to those kinds of voters and we want to win.

MACCALLUM: I mean, it's fascinating to me because well, that, and you know, you look at the messages that are coming. Elizabeth Warren is expected to announce shortly. She's going after billionaires, you know, the gall of this billionaire NFL owner who bought $100 million super yacht and his own IMAX theater. "I'm pretty sure that he can pay my new ultra- millionaire tax." She says. Then she went after Ken Griffin, a big hedge fund guy for buying a $238 million apartment.

Now, I mean, I think most Americans think that that's you know, a bit over the top but not that his money should be clawed back and redistributed to other people, Richard.

FOWLER: Listen, I think we're going to have a healthy primary field. And just as Republicans had in 2016 is we're going to have a chance to debate the ideals. We haven't had that for a very long time. It's been three presidential cycles since we've actually had a debate about ideals in our party.

I mean, for Republicans this last cycle they got a chance to debate where the party sits on immigration, where the party sits on health care. Now, for us, we get a chance to do that and I think it's very healthy for our party to debate whether or not a millionaire's tax is a good idea for Democrats, whether Medicare for all is a good idea.

MACCALLUM: Marie, should money be taken away from the superrich in the form of a 70, 80 percent tax like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez seems to want?

HARF: Well, I'm not sure if 70 or 80 percent tax is the way to go. And she's also not running for president. But I do think there will be Democrats running who say --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Elizabeth Warren is a better example. She's called for that.

HARF: -- we need -- right. We need -- we need to look at how much the super wealthy pay in taxes if they can pay more. And look, I think there is an opening here politically, though, Martha, because the tax bill that Donald Trump passed is still quite unpopular. Middle-class voters overwhelmingly say they think it benefited the wealthy and corporations more than it benefited them.

MACCALLUM: But Marie, look at the economic data.

(CROSSTALK)

HARF: There is base here for Democrats to pick a vote.

MACCALLUM: You have tens of thousands of jobs added in manufacturing. You have jobs added in construction in the recent report. So that -- those changes are amounting to an enormous number of jobs as kind of. I just wonder as Democrats when you look at that how are you going to run against an economy that is doing very well based on those principles.

If you start raising the taxes of rich people, you know what are they going to start doing? They are going to find ways to hire fewer people.

FOWLER: I don't know if it's raising tax to rich people. I think a couple of years ago Warren Buffet, the richest guy on earth, said it best. He says, I should be paying the same effective tax rate as my secretary. There's no reason that my secretary pays 35 and 36 percent and I pay 14 percent.

HARF: Right.

FOWLER: And so, I think what we -- and from my tax opinion --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, we have fewer tax brackets now and the tax brackets have been leveled up --

(CROSSTALK)

FOWLER: But still, a secretary is paying more than her billionaire boss in a lot of cases. So, if we could say that a secretary pays 25 percent.

MACCALLUM: In a percentage.

FOWLER: And her billionaire boss 5 percentage or pays 25 percent, I think most Americans agree that that's fair and equitable

HARF: And the Trump economy has not benefitted everyone. Go talk to soybean farmers across the Midwest, they will tell you the tariffs have put them in incredibly tough position. Wages are now rising a little more quickly but they're still not rising enough. People can't afford healthcare. They can't afford prescription drugs. So, a lot of the economy is doing well, a lot of its people are still feeling anxious about it.

MACCALLUM: I have a quick question for you. Howard Schultz what do you think?

FOWLER: No.

HARF: No.

MACCALLUM: Well, voters will end up supporting an independent third-party candidate. Forty-nine percent independents say they would be, 41 percent of anti-Trump voters, 31 percent of Democrats. I think he is going to be a very interesting story to watch here, Marie.

HARF: Is there any independent candidate or Howard Schultz --

MACCALLUM: Third party.

HARF: -- because to be a third-party candidate -- Richard, I don't know if you would agree with this -- you need an independent power base and you need charisma. He has neither.

FOWLER: I think beyond that you also need infrastructure.

HARF: Yes.

FOWLER: I think that we probably saw with Ross Perot the last decent independent candidate is.

MACCALLUM: We are in a whole different moment now than Ross Perot with social media and the way that Donald Trump got elected --

(CROSSTALK)

FOWLER: I get that. But you still need to collect petition.

MACCALLUM: -- was not with the help of the RNC to the entire --

(CROSSTALK)

FOWLER: And you still need to get on the ballot and Ross Perot wasn't able to get on the ballot all the states because he didn't have the party infrastructure to do it.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I think it's going to be interesting to watch. Thanks to you guys. Good to you have here.

FOWLER: Good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Can you come on again together?

HARF: Definitely.

MACCALLUM: Definitely. All right. Coming up next, still ahead, shake-up at the White House as an insider leaks President Trump's private schedule. Why are critics freaking out over the term executive time?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So, the White House pushing back hard against the latest leak, a copy of the president's personal schedule, which led a lot of questions over the weekend over what the president is doing during his, quote, "executive time."

Here now, Howie Kurtz, host of "MediaBuzz." Howie, good to see you tonight.

HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST: Same here.

MACCALLUM: Thank you for being here. I saw this one it came through yesterday morning. And I thought it was interesting the way the story defines executive time.

Let's put that up on the screen so everybody can see it. This is what's going on under executive time. Instead, he spends his mornings in the residence watching TV, reading the papers, responding to what he sees and reads by phoning aides, members of Congress, friends, administration officials and informal advisers. What does that sound like to you?

KURTZ: Well, first of all, it sounds like a heat seeking missile of a leak by somebody on the White House payroll who clearly doesn't like the boss because this is solely designed to embarrass Donald Trump, to play into the narrative of his detractors that he is lazy, he doesn't like briefings, he watches too much TV, and he plays golf and all of that.

To me, and to the average American, I think, but basically who cares how he runs his schedule as long as he gets things done. Nicolle Wallace, the Bush White House aide who hosts the show on MSNBC, says the secret is out. Trump doesn't do much of anything.

But at the same time the president's detractors say he is wreaking havoc on America with his terrible agenda and threatening world civilization. You can't have it both ways.

MACCALLUM: Yes. What kind of struck me when I read is that it sounds a lot like work. I mean, he's reading the papers. He does watch a lot of television. He admits that.

KURTZ: Yes. Maybe too much.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: He watches tons of news. He watches probably almost every cable channel during the day and you can, you know, make whatever you want of that.

KURTZ: May play on the tweets, yes.

MACCALLUM: But speaking to members of Congress, reacting to policy, calling people, to me it sounds like he is sitting in the residence doing similar work that he might be doing in the Oval Office. I think a lot of Americans sort of understand that the lifestyle has kind of changed in the world in terms of where people do their work.

KURTZ: Yes. Well, even if he just needs time to think. I mean, the president doesn't have to be boxed in from early morning to early night with back-to-back-to-back briefings, and that's not Trump's style anyway. But you know, this isn't a policy leak where somebody is trying to get him to move a little bit on Syria or Afghanistan or border security. It's totally personal.

And of course, the president increasingly thinks that he can't trust the people around him because no matter how leakers he gets rid of these things still -- I mean, as a reporter, I love leaks. But this is so personal that it really does raise question about who can the president can trust on his own staff?

MACCALLUM: Yes, it really does. So, the list just went out. Tomorrow night is the State of the Union, always a big event. We'll be here doing live coverage throughout the whole evening, Bret Baier and I.

So, he is including Alice Johnson, who is the woman who was freed from prison after many years, mostly at the behest of Kim Kardashian.

(CROSSTALK)

KURTZ: Drug charge. Kim Kardashian, yes.

MACCALLUM: Also, a number of families who have been impacted by illegal immigrant crime. You know, how important are these choices?

KURTZ: You know, there is a reason that every president, since Ronald Reagan who pioneered the technique, has these guests to illustrate issues important to them, and that it works. It humanizes the policy. It gives people a chance to see actual human beings. Democrats will bring in their own guests to score their political points. I understand there is a young kid whose last name is Trump was bullied in school. Now, that is a nice touch.

MACCALLUM: Joshua Trump sixth grader bullied for his name. So that will provide a moment. Right?

KURTZ: He will be famous for a day.

MACCALLUM: Howie, thank you very much.

KURTZ: Great to see you.

MACCALLUM: We'll be all watching with great interest tomorrow night. That is "The Story" for this Monday evening from Washington. We will see you back here tomorrow night at 7:00 as we count down to President Trump's State of the Union address. Tucker Carlson, right next door, coming up in a second.
 
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