Graham on Sanders becoming Budget Committee chairman: 'I’ve got a fight on my hands'
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Republicans need to 'fight like hell' against raising taxes.
This is a rush transcript from "Sunday Morning Futures," January 17, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome. Good Sunday morning, everyone. Welcome to "Sunday Morning Futures." I'm Maria Bartiromo.
A new day in Washington and America, as president-elect Joe Biden will be inaugurated this upcoming Wednesday, the ceremony scaled back this year because of coronavirus, but the military presence anything but, with more than 25,000 National Guard troops from dozens of states already at the Capitol this morning. That's more than three times those in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
Coming up, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham with the highlights and the policy priorities of the incoming administration, plus the Democrats plan for an impeachment trial of President Trump soon after Joe Biden is sworn in.
Then, independent voice and constitutional scholar Alan Dershowitz is here on whether the Senate can actually impeach a former commander in chief.
Plus, breaking news this morning on a string of executive orders that we are expecting by the new president in the first 10 days. Former Director of National intelligence Ric Grenell on the biggest threats the administration will face and why they will need to deal with a new intelligence dump of information on the Russia hoax first to be exposed this upcoming week.
Plus, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Glenn Greenwald is here with the reaction to social media's dominance and why canceling culture and blacklisting citizens are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and communist China, not of America.
All that and more, as we look ahead, right here, right now on "Sunday Morning Futures."
And first this morning, a new page turned in America, as the peaceful transfer of power will take place Wednesday morning with the inauguration of president-elect Joe Biden.
Biden's aides say that he will take executive action within the first 10 days in office to return the United States to the Paris climate accord and put a new mask mandate in place, after spending trillions with that blowout spending package announced last week.
Joining me right now with the reaction to the new president and policies is South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham.
Senator, it's good to see you this morning. Thanks very much for being here.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Will you be going to the inauguration? And what should we expect?
GRAHAM: We should expect a peaceful transfer of power. I will be there. I think it's important that I show up. And we will have a new president Wednesday.
And if the first thing he does is go back into the Paris climate accords, that is a disaster for the U.S. economy. The accords basically give China and India pass on their carbon emissions. And how do you enforce a national mask mandate?
So, if that's what he's going to lead off with, he's going to have a tough rollout of his presidency.
BARTIROMO: I want to get back to Joe Biden in a moment.
I know that you had a message for President Trump this morning, Senator.
GRAHAM: Yes.
Mr. President, your policies will stand the test of time. You're the most important figure in the Republican Party. You can shape the direction of the party, keep your movement alive. We need to understand that these are difficult times. I appreciate what you did Thursday.
There are a lot of people urging the president to pardon folks who participated in defiling the Capitol, the rioters. I don't care if you went there and spread flowers on the floor. You breached the security of the Capitol. You interrupted a joint session of Congress. You tried to intimidate us all. You should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
And to seek a pardon of these people would be wrong. It would be -- I think it would destroy President Trump. And I hope we don't go down that road. They chose to go into that Capitol, defile the Capitol.
President Trump never said, go into the Capitol and try to interrupt a joint session of Congress. That was the choice they make -- they made. And they need to live with that choice.
BARTIROMO: The president obviously tried to send messages here, because many of his supporters continue to believe there was fraud in the election, and they feel robbed, Senator.
GRAHAM: Well, I tell you what. You can feel any way you want to. There was irregularities in mail-in voting; 66,000 people under 18 did not vote in Georgia. You did not have 8,000 felons, as claimed, voting from prison in Arizona.
The election is over. The Electoral College certified the elections. I'm disappointed in the outcome. I wish he would have won. I appreciate what the president said Thursday. We will reject violence. His movement is not about violence. It is about peace. It is about policy. It is now time to move on to Joe Biden.
You talk about unifying the country. If you do not stand up against the impeachment of President Trump after he leaves office, you're an incredibly weak figure in American history. President Trump is trying to heal the nation. Pursuing impeachment after he leaves the office will further divide the country.
It will ruin the start of your presidency, Joe Biden. You need to stand up to the radical left and tell Schumer to dismiss what I think is an unconstitutional attempt to impeach President Trump out of office. Stand down.
BARTIROMO: Yes, I mean, this is -- this is a crisis for the Biden administration as well.
GRAHAM: Yes.
BARTIROMO: He's trying to put in an agenda, and you have got the Democrats pushing to impeach who will be a former president, Senator.
GRAHAM: Yes, this is insane at every level.
It will create further division in the country. What good comes from impeaching Donald Trump after he leaves office? This is a scarlet letter impeachment, where the Democrats are trying openly to disqualify President Trump from ever holding office again after he leaves office.
This has never been done in the history of our country. I think it is blatantly unconstitutional. It's being driven by the radical left. And what is Joe Biden doing? He's sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing.
One phone call from president-elect Biden would stop this.
And to my Republican colleagues in the Senate, if we embrace an unconstitutional impeachment of Donald Trump after he is out of office, it will destroy the party. The Republican Party wants to move forward. President Trump's going to be the most important voice in the Republican Party for a long time to come.
He's going to accept responsibility for his part on January the 6th. But impeaching him after he leaves office is not only unconstitutional. From a Republican point of view, it would destroy our party. I hope the Republican Senators know that, because it is a reality. And it will not help the country, the most important thing.
Impeaching him after he leaves office will be disastrous for this country and our party.
BARTIROMO: You know, there are a lot of people out there who feel that they never saw accountability from so many wrongs that were done in the last four or five years. Senator, you know this.
GRAHAM: Right. Yes.
BARTIROMO: And people are mad at you as well. Why didn't you declassify the Russiagate transcripts before the election? Was there anything you could have done differently to make people feel that there was accountability for an effort to take down a candidate and then a sitting president with the whole Russia hoax nonsense?
GRAHAM: Yes.
Well, I did hearings. I'm not a prosecutor. I have told you this like 10,000 times. It's not my job to put people in jail. I can't fire anybody. It's my job to perform oversight. Durham is...
BARTIROMO: But you had subpoena power. You had subpoena power.
GRAHAM: Yes, well, I used -- look, we called McCabe. We called Comey. We called everybody. Everybody who signed the warrant said in my committee: If I knew then what I did -- what I know now, I wouldn't have signed the warrant.
Durham is the prosecutor. I'm not going to get his way. My time is over. So, I'm releasing all the interviews of the people who participated in the Judiciary oversight committee. And I'm proud of what we did.
It was my committee that got everybody to come before the country's as a whole and say: If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have signed the Carter Page warrant.
It's up to Durham to prosecute people, and we will see what he does.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
Senator, I want to ask you about policy priorities, because now Bernie Sanders is in your shoes. He's going to be in your shoes as the chairman of the Budget Committee.
GRAHAM: Yes.
BARTIROMO: What do you see as the priorities of Bernie Sanders? How will America's money be spent?
GRAHAM: Well, the first thing they're going to do is use reconciliation, where you just need 50 votes, to increase your taxes. So, what are their priorities?
They're going to roll back border security at the border. And you see the caravans beginning to form now. They're going to raise your taxes. They're going to impose regulations on the economy. They're going to try to make D.C. a state. They're going to try to implement parts of the Green New Deal and Medicare for all through budget reconciliation.
I have got a fight on my hands. The one thing I want to tell President Trump, you're leaving office with some of the most significant accomplishments -- accomplishments in my lifetime. You brought order to chaos at the border. You rebuilt the military when it was on its back.
You destroyed ISIS. You got five peace agreements between Arab countries and Israelis. You got the USMCA. You cut our taxes.
Here's what I think Republicans need to do. Work with Biden where we can, maybe on infrastructure, but fight like hell turning America into a socialized nation. Fight like hell to make sure we don't undercut border security. Reject the Green New Deal. Fight like hell against raising taxes.
Here's what I predict. If they do what they're talking about doing, Republicans will come roaring back in 2022, we will take back the House, we will take back the Senate. And just in a few months, President Trump will be looked at far differently than he is today.
BARTIROMO: Well, what should we take away from the fact that the first move from Joe Biden is this spending blowout, $1.9 trillion in coronavirus spending, Senator?
GRAHAM: Right.
BARTIROMO: When are you and your colleagues going to start worrying about $23 trillion in debt, probably the same size as the overall economy?
GRAHAM: Well, yes, I think the debt is a problem.
But the coronavirus is raging. The hospitals are full. People are out of office. So, $1.9 trillion is way too much. We just did $900 billion. But President Trump was right about a $2,000 stimulus check to middle-class and lower-middle-class families who are struggling out there. I will support that.
But I'm not going to bail out these blue states who have mismanaged their state -- their state governments and budgets, under the name of the coronavirus.
But here's what I would say, that Joe Biden's off to a lousy start. It would be so easy for him, in the name of healing this country, to tell Schumer to stand down impeachment. No good comes from impeaching President Trump out of office.
But he can't do that. So I'm really worried that he's going to stand up to the radical left on anything. I think we're going to have in the first 100 days by the Biden administration the most aggressive socialized -- socialized policy effort in the history of the country.
BARTIROMO: Wow. That is some statement.
What do you want to say to your colleagues in the Senate, those 10 GOP who voted for impeachment, led, of course, by number three Republican Liz Cheney, Senator? She's really pushing to impeach Trump.
GRAHAM: Here's the problem.
I understand what happened on January the 6th was one of the low points in my time in office. It was horrendous to see people come and take over the Capitol, the House and the Senate...
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRAHAM: ... beat officers, defile the seat of government.
How in the hell could that happen? Where was Nancy Pelosi? It's her job to provide Capitol security. We will get to the bottom of that.
To my Republican colleagues, impeachment is a political tool. What you have done here is, you impeached the president without one witness being called, and not even having a lawyer. That's dangerous to the presidency.
So, I think it was a bad, rushed, emotional move that puts the presidency at risk, will require further -- call for further division, cause further division in the country.
To my Senate Republicans, don't legitimize an unconstitutional effort to impeach President Trump. It becomes the model for the future. Will we pursue presidents in perpetuity if they do something we don't like and we hound them when they're out of office? The Constitution was never meant to do that. That is truly a scarlet letter impeachment.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRAHAM: So, to my Republican colleagues, please do not justify and legitimize what the House did, and stand up for the Constitution, like we did on January the 6th. Stop this before it stops.
BARTIROMO: And you...
GRAHAM: I hope every Republican will reject the second impeachment of President Trump.
BARTIROMO: And you sent this, all of this, in a letter to Chuck Schumer. We have that letter here to show. Have you heard back from Senator Schumer on this letter that you sent?
GRAHAM: No, but my letter to Senator Schumer was pretty simple.
You called on all of us to recognize state certification of the Electoral College. I did. All but six Republicans recognized it was the states' job to certify elections. The vice president withstood pressure to try to overturn the election. He doesn't have the power to do that.
If it could be done be a vice president, sure -- I'm sure Al Gore would have done it. We withstood that pressure. Now I'm asking Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden to withstand the pressure from the radical left. Stand down what I believe to be clearly an unconstitutional impeachment of a president leaving office.
It will create further division in the country. It will destroy the presidency itself.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRAHAM: And if you continue to do this, you hate Trump more than you love the country. And that's the underlying problem.
From the day one, the first day taking office...
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRAHAM: ... President Trump has been hounded by the media and the liberal Democrats. And it will continue even when he's out of office.
How does that make America...
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRAHAM: How does that allow us to heal?
BARTIROMO: Unbelievable. You're right, everything -- and despite that incredible record that you just pointed out, gone through some of the great successes that this president has had.
Real quick, Senator, before we go, we only have a couple of seconds. Twitter is purging Republicans. Not only did they ban President Trump. They put Parler out of business. But they're also checking your followers as well.
GRAHAM: Yes.
BARTIROMO: Biggest losers in this Twitter purge, yourself and Leader Mitch McConnell, as well as Chuck Grassley. What do you want to say to Twitter, real quick?
GRAHAM: Twitter, Google and all the social media companies who enjoy legal liability protection under Section 230, we're coming after you. We're going to strip Section 230 liability, make you like every other country.
You make a decision, you can be sued based on that decision. A private company has more power than the government and traditional media. There is no regulation. They have legal liability immunity. That needs to come to an end. This is a defining moment in American democracy.
If we do not push back against Google and Twitter, we will lose our democratic ability to talk to each other.
BARTIROMO: All right, Senator, it's great to have you this morning. Thanks very much.
We will be watching all of the above.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you, sir.
Coming up, the man who, as the acting DNI, saw more raw intelligence than anybody, except for the president.
Ric Grenell on the biggest threats facing the incoming administration and which former Obama official he says will really be calling the shots. He's calling her the mini-president.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Well, welcome back.
What a week ahead.
In just three days, Joe Biden will be sworn in as the 46th president of the United States. And because so much of his campaign focused on Donald Trump, rather than actual policies, we don't really know what to expect from his administration.
GOP Congressman Devin Nunes made his prediction when he joined me on this program in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): I would just point out to your viewers that President Obama is the only president that I know that only moved about a mile from the White House, set up shop, has all of his people there.
So, it's not just about how this is the first president that oversaw using a political campaign, using the FBI and DOJ to open an investigation into your rival campaign. That's as big of a fraud as you get in the history of the United States of America.
So, he's not giving up power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: So, exactly how influential will former President Barack Obama be in Joe Biden's White House?
Joining me right now to talk about that and the priorities that the incoming administration will face is Ric Grenell, the former acting director of national intelligence. He is also former U.S. ambassador to Germany.
Good morning, Ric. It's good to see you this morning. Thanks so much for being here.
RICHARD GRENELL, FORMER ACTING U.S. DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Thanks, Maria.
BARTIROMO: So, what do you think in terms of policy priorities and the picks that you have seen so far? We know that Susan Rice has been tapped to run Joe Biden's Foreign Policy Council. That doesn't need Senate confirmation.
Your reaction to that and what we will see coming out of this new administration?
GRENELL: So, Susan Rice has been tapped to do domestic policy.
And what is really interesting about that is, she's got no experience in domestic policy. She is going to be somebody who is incredibly influential. Remember that she was national security adviser, so she knows that entire apparatus.
We were told that she wanted to be secretary of state in the Obama administration. They were making moves towards that, but she didn't have the votes, so they backed off on that.
And so I think the reality is, she's going to be running foreign policy, domestic policy. She's probably extremely happy that Kamala Harris is going to be preoccupied with the Senate, trying to manage 50/50, being the 101st first senator there, and won't have a lot of time to get into policy issues.
So, I think you need to watch Susan Rice very closely. She will be the shadow president. We have a president-elect in Joe Biden who clearly is not the Joe Biden of 10 years ago. He's not even the Joe Biden of five years ago when it comes to policy issues.
We saw him raise his hand during the Democratic primary for some really radical ideas. The progressives have clearly taken over him. And I think that that's why he won. They wanted someone who had a name that they could control.
And Susan Rice being right there at the White House to be the shadow president is probably exactly where she wants to be...
BARTIROMO: Wow.
GRENELL: ... behind the scenes...
BARTIROMO: Wow.
GRENELL: ... and unchecked.
BARTIROMO: Unchecked is the key word there.
Ric, I want to get your take on what her role was in the Russia hoax and spreading that wrong narrative, and also about this incredible dump of information that we are going to see this upcoming week.
Let's take a short break.
When we come back, we will discuss which California Democrats are also in bed with communist China, why Nancy Pelosi put Eric Swalwell on the Homeland Security Committee, despite his special friendship with a Chinese spy.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Well, welcome back.
We are back with former acting Director of National Intelligence and Ambassador to Germany Ric Grenell.
And, Ric, I want to start in Germany, because, this week, we actually heard from Angela Merkel, who commented on the fact that President Trump was banned from Twitter.
Now, there are reports this morning -- here is the German chancellor's statement, saying: "Bear great responsibility for political communications not being poisoned by hatred, by lies and by incitement to violence. This fundamental right can be intervened." And she's saying that this is just bad policy, "according to the law and within the framework defined by legislators, not according to a decision by the management of social media platforms."
This is an attack on free speech.
Ric, your reaction to what we're seeing in terms of cancel culture? Twitter, we have a tape of Jack Dorsey saying, this is just one account, but this is be going on for a long time. And we are seeing lots of Republicans, conservatives' Twitter accounts being purged.
GRENELL: Look, I hope that the Democrats and the Washington, D.C., media and big tech and Silicon Valley, and specifically Twitter and Jack Dorsey, I hope they're all watching, and they see what they have done.
We now have Germany lecturing us on our form of government, on how we are going after free speech. And so I think it's a crisis. And I'm hoping that there are going to be some voices on the left that will stand up and say we have gone too far.
They have already overreached, and they haven't even taken over the White House.
BARTIROMO: I want to ask you about policy decisions around the Russia hoax and this decision to declassify documents this week.
What are we going to see this week, Ric, in terms of Hillary Clinton's e- mails that Pompeo was supposed to declassify and other declassifications coming from the Department of Justice? What should we expect?
GRENELL: Well, I hope that we're going to see a whole treasure trove of documents that really show that the Russian collusion investigation from the very beginning -- when you look at the dates of the early warning signs, you will see that career officials knew exactly that this was a phony investigation, that it was politically motivated.
Those voices are in the documents. Unfortunately, what we have had are political appointees during the Obama years who took those warning signs and classified them away. That's kind of the trick that they do. They overclassify anything that they don't like. The narrative that doesn't fit their narrative immediately becomes classified.
It's a trickery of what the intelligence community can do. So, then you have to go into this fight. If you want transparency, if you want the truth to come out, then we must demand that documents that do not push forward or reveal any sources or any methods on how we develop these sources or this information, if it doesn't have a source or a method, then it should be declassified, especially in probes like the Russian collusion investigation.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRENELL: Because the public right now doesn't have any faith in the intelligence community's assessment around Russia.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
GRENELL: We have seen way too many people put forward narratives that were wrong, including right before the election with the Hunter Biden laptop situation, where 50 former U.S. intelligence officials, never seeing information, signed a letter saying that Hunter Biden's laptop was Russian disinformation.
That is the Beijing line. That is exactly what China wants people to say.
BARTIROMO: Yes, I want to ask you about China in the next block, Ric.
But isn't it true that one of the people stopping any declassification was Gina Haspel? I was told that she kept getting in the way of being transparent with the public, so that people understood that this was a made-up story, Russia collusion.
And I was told she was going to get fired. What is Gina Haspel's story?
GRENELL: Look, I think it's really important, even though we have got three days left, to be careful that a sitting Cabinet member is not critiqued by a former Cabinet member.
So, let me just say that we have a problem within the intelligence community overall that transparency is something that is not happening, and people are too concerned about protecting their agency. It's a P.R. exercise. That's got to stop.
And I know that the president is completely focused on that. Transparency is not political. It's very rare in Washington, but it is not a political exercise to give more information to the public. And that's what we're trying to do.
Congress has done a decent job of demanding documents. Unfortunately, it's a partisan exercise. When the Trump administration was in, it was largely just Democrats pushing for more information. And it will be the reverse in the Biden administration. Republicans will start asking for more information.
I think that's an appropriate role. But both parties need to recognize that they shouldn't protect bureaucrats or political appointees who are trying to hide information. This treasure trove of documents that we're talking about, that we're hoping to see is really an important part of seeing the scandals of the past come forward with information that is about the truth.
We're seeking the truth. And those in Washington who keep hiding it are really the problem.
BARTIROMO: So, has that treasure trove had any impact on John Durham?
I want to take a break, and then come back and ask you if we actually will see a Durham report at any time. And then I want to go through the foreign policy names in the incoming administration as it relates to China.
Ric Grenell, more with you in a moment, as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
We are back with former acting DNI and Ambassador to Germany Ric Grenell.
Ric, I want to get into China and take a look at why there is so much activity in San Francisco.
But, before I do, let me close the loop on our other conversation. Very quickly, do you expect indictments from John Durham? First -- he's the prosecutor. He's running a criminal investigation. First, he said there was going to be an interim report. Then we were told we will likely see indictments.
Will we see indictments in the Russia hoax criminal investigation?
GRENELL: So, the answer is that I don't know. But I suspect that we will.
He's been very thorough. The information that he's been asking has been detailed and diverse. I think that we will see some sort of indictments. And I certainly think that he will focus on the right people. This is not a political exercise for him. He's demonstrated that over and over.
BARTIROMO: You have said many times that China remains our biggest threat in this country.
The Chinese Communist Party wants to overtake the United States as the number one superpower. And the foreign policy team is packed with China appeasers in this incoming administration.
Jake Sullivan for NSA co-authored an essay arguing for managed coexistence with China. Antony Blinken for secretary of state named in Ron Johnson's report on Hunter Biden and Burisma scrubbing the Web site of the CCP's China ties.
Alejandro Mayorkas for the Department of Homeland Security, he was found to have sold green cards to Chinese nationals on behalf of Democrat donors. And then there's all the activity in San Francisco.
What can you tell us about the China threat and what you have learned about California's ties to the CCP?
GRENELL: Well, the first thing let's say is that Russia is a problem, China's a crisis.
And for those who try to flip that around, they're really giving the Beijing line. What we have seen in the Bay Area, in San Francisco, is, the Chinese spies have infiltrated the Bay Area political system.
You look at Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer information this week, Eric Swalwell, even Gavin Newsom. These are all San Francisco, Northern California, Bay Area politicians who have fallen prey to Chinese spy tactics. We have to call it out and be very clear that what they are trying to do is compete with the United States to the point where they defeat us.
This is the communist China strategy. And we can't be unclear about that. We have to recognize when we have a competitor that has infiltrated into our political system at -- at the local level. That's their strategy. And they hope that these local politicians build up and grow up and their relationship expands.
But when it comes to governors across our state, members of Congress, politicians, the educational system, certainly, we have seen Chinese spies throughout all of academia. And we have to be able to recognize it and call it out and get rid of it.
This is a competition of big ideas, communism vs. capitalism.
BARTIROMO: Well, it's very disturbing. And the whole world should worry about this, I believe, Ric.
I mean, if the Chinese Communist Party is saying they want to overtake America to become the number one superpower, the free world should be outraged by this, that a communist country wants to be the dominant country in the world.
And I feel like these Chinese spy stories that you're referring to, Dianne Feinstein had a driver and a manager for 20 years. For 20 years, he's listening to her and sending information back to the CCP. It was sort of blown off. The mainstream media didn't talk much about it. Same with Barbara Boxer.
Now we have got the Eric Swalwell situation. He is China's guy. I mean, this Christine Fang met him when he was a local politician. She raised money for him, helped him become an elected official in Congress, and now is on the Intel Committee. And Nancy Pelosi just put him on the Homeland Security Committee.
It was also a stick in the eye, I guess, on Nancy Pelosi's part to say he's one of the managers for an impeachment trial for President Trump. Your reaction?
GRENELL: Look, it's their the Chinese strategy, the Communist Party's strategy in the United States, specifically in San Francisco in the Bay Area, is working.
They are developing relationships that are extremely problematic. And what we do have is, many of these politicians are the leaders of saying, look over at Russia, Russia is the problem, don't look at Beijing, don't look at China.
We see this as a huge problem. And the irony is, is that right down the road is Silicon Valley, where big tech is starting its march towards doing many things that the Communist Chinese Party welcomes.
We look at 5G technology and the fact that we're trying to stop companies like Huawei from selling to our allies around the world. We see the problem with TikTok. We see the problem developing with facial recognition companies.
The Chinese companies that do facial recognition are terrible. They are the irresponsible companies using technology for nefarious reasons. The American versions of all those need to be supported. We need to never be in a position where we're asking our allies to reject Huawei and not have an option on 5G.
We cannot be behind on technology. And we have too many people in Washington, too many people in academia that have decided that they're just going to manage the relationship with China, as Jake Sullivan says. I think that's a dangerous road.
BARTIROMO: Yes. And -- yes.
And I recognize the danger. We recognize the danger on this program, have been zeroing in on the CCP's goals and motives now for four years, at least.
And one of the reasons that we highlighted the story of Hunter Biden accepting money from companies overseas in particular, doing a deal with a Chinese company that was tied to the Communist Party, all of this is important to understand as we try to better understand what the U.S.-China policy will be in a different administration.
President Trump was very tough on China, first time we saw that in this 40 years of engagement with China. Ric, do you believe that the China policy will change and become softer under Joe Biden?
GRENELL: I think it already has.
I think that Beijing is celebrating many of these appointments that the Biden administration is putting forward. It's a big concern. And we need to make sure that conservative Democrats, those who are concerned about China speak up, because, when you look at the Senate, you look at the House, Republicans cannot do it alone.
We are going to need to have allies in the Democratic Party. We can't be fighting about everything on a partisan basis. We need to reach out and explain why this is such a crisis to Democrats and have them stand up.
BARTIROMO: All right, we will leave it there.
Ric, it is great to get your insights on all of this. Thanks very much for the time this morning. We will see you soon.
GRENELL: Thanks, Maria.
BARTIROMO: Ric Grenell joining us there.
Coming up: Last week, constitutionalist Alan Dershowitz told us that impeaching a former president is unconstitutional, but will that stop Chuck Schumer from actually doing it?
Alan is back with us to weigh in right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
After just four hours of debate, the House voted on Wednesday to impeach President Trump for a second time, charging him with incitement of insurrection.
Speaker Nancy Pelosi is expected to send the article of impeachment to the Senate sometime this week.
But, according to my next guest, none of it matters, because it is unconstitutional to hold a trial once the president has left office.
Joining me right now is Alan Dershowitz. He is Harvard professor emeritus, who was also part of President Trump's impeachment defense team. He also has a wildly popular podcast, "The Dershow." Also joining us is Glenn Greenwald, a free speech advocate and civil libertarian who, in 2014, won a Pulitzer Prize for breaking Edward Snowden's story about the NSA surveilling private U.S. citizens under the Obama administration.
Gentlemen, it's good to have you both. Thank you so much for joining us.
Alan, let me kick it off with you.
Your reaction to what we may see this upcoming week? It looks like that article of impeachment is going to the Senate, and Chuck Schumer is going to push it through, a Senate trial on President Trump, who will have left office at that point.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, FORMER TRUMP IMPEACHMENT DEFENSE TEAM MEMBER: It will be unconstitutional, but that probably won't bother the senators.
The Constitution is very clear. The subject, the object, the purpose of impeachment is to remove a sitting precedent. And there are two precedents. One is very obvious. When President Nixon resigned in anticipation of being impeached and removed, there was no effort to impeach him after he left office. It was clear that the Senate had lost jurisdiction at that point.
The proponents cite another precedent. In 1876, there was a failed effort, a failed effort to remove the secretary of war. In an initial vote, the Senate voted close, in a close vote, that they did have jurisdiction to try somebody who had resigned.
But then, when it came to a vote on the merits, they lost, because 27 or so senators voted that they did not have jurisdiction. Those senators were right. There is no jurisdiction. You cannot put citizen Trump on trial. If you could do that, it would be a bill of attainder, number one, putting somebody on trial who was not a sitting president.
And, number two, the implications would be horrendous. It would mean that if, the Republicans came up with a terrific candidate, say, not Donald Trump, to run against President Biden in 2024, the Democrats could simply impeach him.
If you can impeach anyone who is not a sitting president, there are no limits to the power of the Congress to try ordinary citizens. It is plainly unconstitutional. And the Senate should not proceed with this unconstitutional act.
BARTIROMO: Well, we will see.
And it also will tell us a lot about what the priorities are of this incoming administration. That's for sure.
I want to turn to the censorship that we are watching, all of us, that you both have remarked about quite often. Jack Dorsey has admitted that the censorship at Twitter will go far beyond just Donald Trump.
Here is a tape where he admits that, when he doesn't -- when he doesn't realize he's being taped. Watch this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACK DORSEY, CEO, TWITTER: We are focused on one account right now, but this is going to be much bigger than just one account. And it's going to go on for much longer than just this day, this week, and the next few weeks.
It's going to go on beyond the inauguration.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Now, Twitter gave FOX News a statement about this, saying that this is not any different than what he has said in the past.
Glenn, good morning to you. Thank you for being here.
What is your reaction to Dorsey admitting that he's purging conservatives?
GLENN GREENWALD, JOURNALIST: Well, I think there's clearly a pressure campaign under way, bizarrely, led by journalists at many major media outlets, who want to maintain their control over the dissemination of information and regard a free Internet as a threat to that.
If you go back and look at what Silicon Valley pioneers were saying with the advent of the Internet, the reason they were so excited about it as an innovation was because it was going to be free and open Internet -- that was the motto -- free of corporate control, free of stricture, free of dogma, the ability of human beings to communicate with one another without the need for corporate and government intervention.
And what we're seeing now is the complete opposite of that. And it's really not being led by Silicon Valley. This obligation, which they would prefer not to have to exercise because they'd rather have as many people as possible on their platforms, is really being foisted upon them by a public and a Democratic Party and a bunch of liberal media outlets like The New York Times and CNN and NBC News, who demand over and over that they censor more, and not less.
And that doesn't mean that they have to capitulate to that pressure, which they are doing. But I think we have to realize that this isn't just some unilateral power grab by Silicon Valley. It's also being done by a lot of powerful institutions in conjunction with them.
DERSHOWITZ: Right. Right.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
And it's not just the censorship, Alan. It's also Harvard. Faculty and students are trying to revoke Harvard graduates, their -- their certificates and their university credentials.
You are a professor emeritus. We're going to get back to that when we come back.
Let's take a break, Alan Dershowitz and Glenn Greenwald.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
We are back with Alan Dershowitz and Glenn Greenwald.
Alan, there is a campaign building at Harvard to rescind and revoke degrees of Trump officials and allies, including White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany and Senator Ted Cruz, as well as Dan Crenshaw.
DERSHOWITZ: Right.
BARTIROMO: Your reaction?
DERSHOWITZ: I will represent pro bono any Harvard graduate who has his or her degree rescinded based on politics.
The great danger is that this is coming from our future leaders. McCarthyism was a thing of the past that came from the right. This is coming from people on the left who are our future leaders. It has to be fought at every turn.
We cannot allow free speech for me, but not for thee, which is what we're seeing at Harvard and other great institutions.
BARTIROMO: I mean, it's just terrible, Glenn.
All anybody wants is truth. The president now is looking for further pardons. Do you think he should pardon Julian Assange, for example?
GREENWALD: I think two people who have done more to expose the truth of the very agencies that Trump -- Donald Trump says he has been victimized by and was victimized by, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange, are being persecuted by what he calls the deep state, the security state, and absolutely deserve a pardon.
They have been punished and they have suffered for years now. And it's time for them to come home.
DERSHOWITZ: I think Assange should be pardoned.
(CROSSTALK)
BARTIROMO: What do you think about this cancel culture, Glenn, real quick?
You, too. You think so too, Alan.
GREENWALD: I think that the way that you find -- I think the way that you find truth is by coming on and debating people with whom you have great disagreements, like I have with Alan Dershowitz.
BARTIROMO: Yes.
DERSHOWITZ: Yes.
GREENWALD: And, that way, the public can decide, after hearing all views, what is correct and what isn't.
BARTIROMO: We would all agree with that.
Glenn, Alan, great to see you both. Thank you so much, gentlemen.
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