Buttigieg: Permanent revenue from taxpayers is 'responsible budgeting'
U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg on why the infrastructure spending plan spans for 15 years, long after Biden is president
This is a rush transcript of "Fox News Sunday," May 30, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Shannon Bream, in for Chris Wallace.
The White House struggling to strike a bipartisan deal on infrastructure
with Senate Republicans, after abandoning its Memorial Day deadline.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can't afford to fall
any further behind. Now it's a time to build the foundation that we've
laid.
BREAM (voice-over): Talks at the crossroads as President Biden reaches for
top legislative priority. But the administration and Republican senators
remain far apart over the size and scope of the investment and how to pay
for it.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): We believe that this counteroffer
delivers on what President Biden told us in the Oval Office that way.
BREAM: We'll speak with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, one the
cabinet members pitching the president's proposal.
Then, get reaction from West Virginia Senator Shelley Moore Capito, the
lead Republican negotiating with the White House.
Plus, the Biden administration calling for intelligence officials to
investigate whether COVID-19 may have leaked from a lab.
KARINE JEAN-PIRRE, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: We will continue to
press China to participate in a full, transparent, evidence-based
international investigation.
BREAM: We'll ask our Sunday panel about the fresh look into the origins of
the pandemic.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM (on camera): Hello again and happy Memorial Day from FOX News in
Washington.
The White House criticizing Senate Republicans' counteroffer for a
bipartisan deal on infrastructure but negotiations remain alive. President
Biden inviting members for another round of talks this week as the sides
are a trillion dollars apart.
Meanwhile, Mr. Biden released his first budget proposal on Friday as many
Americans hit road for the holiday weekend. The $6 trillion proposal
includes money for education, research, broadband and healthcare, the
highest amount of federal spending since World War II.
In the moment, we'll discuss the prospects for compromise with the
Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and lead GOP negotiator, Senator
Shelley Moore Capito.
But, first, let's turn to Mark Meredith traveling with the president in
Wilmington, Delaware -- Mark.
MARK MEREDITH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, President Biden's budget
proposals are generating a lot of mixed reactions. Democrats, they appeared
thrilled with what they've seen so far, while Republicans are outraged
saying these ideas could bankrupt the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MEREDITH (voice-over): President Biden's budget calls for massive new
spending, including $2.3 trillion on infrastructure, a proposal already
being hotly debated, $1.8 trillion to boost and expand safety net programs,
and another one and half trillion in discretionary spending.
BRIAN DEESE, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: It's just the president's
core economic plan, long-term investments that will increase the productive
capacity of our economy.
MEREDITH: It also calls for funding Democratic priorities from $36 billion
to fight climate change, $2 billion to address gun violence, and $30
billion to expand housing assistance.
For Republicans, it's a nonstarter.
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): This kind of spending will ensure that everybody
is paying more for their houses, their rent, their groceries, you name it.
Prices will go up.
MEREDITH: The White House insists with increased taxes on the wealthy and
corporations, its spending plan would be paid for eventually. Republicans
reject the premise, arguing rising inflation is already a warning sign the
economy is in trouble.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): Inflation occurs when you are throwing too
many dollars at too few goods and that's exactly what's happening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MEREDITH (on camera): On Friday, the Labor Department is going to release
the latest jobs report and this could be a big indicator about where
America's economy is heading into the summer months. It can also have a big
impact on those infrastructure negotiations with the White House and Senate
Republicans still appearing fairly far apart on a final deal -- Shannon.
BREAM: Mark Meredith, reporting from Wilmington, Delaware. Mark, thank
you.
Joining us now, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.
Secretary, welcome back to "FOX News Sunday".
PETE BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Thank you. Nice to be back with
you.
BREAM: Let's start with reaction to the president's $6 trillion budget
proposal. The AP says it comes out under this infrastructure. It says this
year's projected deficit would set a new record $3.7 trillion. The national
debt will soon breach $30 trillion. As a result, the government must borrow
roughly 50 cents of every dollar it spends this year and next.
Even a number of the Obama and Biden administration, Larry Summers, who was
the director of the National Economic Council, has a warning.
It starts off this way: We are printing money. We are creating government
bonds. We are borrowing on an unprecedented scale.
He goes on to say that the dollar is at risk, inflation is now potentially
going to skyrocket.
Is Larry Summers wrong, Mr. Secretary?
BUTTIGIEG: This is a responsible budget and, importantly, all of the
proposals for spending and investment in this budget are paid for. It's one
of the reasons why if you look into the out years the deficit actually
starts going down.
But you can't get something for nothing. And in the near term we know that
we need to make major investments in our roads and bridges, in our
education, in our health. We can't afford not to do these things because
for decades, frankly, we've been disinvesting. We've been cutting in the
things that make America strong.
The president is looking around the world, seeing how other countries are
not hesitating to invest in their future, and we're watching America fall
behind. Just look at infrastructure, we're not even in the top 10 anymore.
And we can't allow that to continue.
So yes, this is a bold budget with major investments in the American people
but it's also a responsible one because the president has put forward how
to pay for every penny of it in the long term.
BREAM: What about the critics who say, all right, the payment plans that
we're talking about, the things that we're going to invest in are over an
eight year window but paying for it extends actually over a 15 year window
so people are going to be paying for it long after President Biden is
president.
BUTTIGIEG: Well, that's part of responsible budgeting. You make sure you
create permanent revenue even when you're proposing temporary spending.
What we know is we need to make a lot of these investments upfront in the
same way that a responsible business or family might take out a longer term
loan in order to fund an immediate home improvement or investment in a
business.
America needs to make sure we're investing in the roads and bridges. We
can't say, well, 15 years from now we're going to get around to that, or 20
years from now maybe we'll start doing something to build up our education
and that (ph) and make sure the Americans can go to community college free
of charge. We've got to do these kinds of things right away so that we can
collect the benefits of that in our lives, not just in dollars and cents
terms, in the years to come.
But again, all you've got to do to pay for this is for corporations and
wealthy Americans to pay their fair share. Not a crazy high tax level, not
even as high as the tax levels have been for most of my life.
We're talking about resetting the corporate tax rate to what it was under
George W. Bush. If we do these kinds of things, it's paid for over the long
run and we can start enjoying the benefits as a country right away.
BREAM: Even President Obama warned about raising the corporate tax rate.
In his 2015 economic report he said this: "All else equal, a higher
effective marginal rate for businesses will tend to reduce the level of
investment, and a lower effective marginal rate will tend to encourage
additional projects and a larger capital stock. Increases in the capital
available for each worker's use boosts productivity, wages, and output."
He had cautioned as well about doing that.
BUTTIGIEG: Well, the very first words in those comments were "all else
equal," and unfortunately, all else is not equal right now. A lot of
companies don't pay the so-called "sticker rate," as a matter of fact, we
have many corporations recently make billions of dollars in profits and pay
zero, zero in taxes. And the American people know that that doesn't make
sense. And I think it's one of the reasons why among Americans there is
remarkable bipartisan support for the tax polices of this administration.
Republicans, independents, and Democrats see that, you know, a lot of
corporations aren't paying their fair share when small businesses and
families are. And so when we're talking about how to fund infrastructure
investments or how to pay for the president's budget, we believe that the
time has come to be paying their fair share.
And, again, not a high rate. I mean, most of my lifetime the corporate tax
rate has been 35. We're saying it ought to be 28. So lower than it has been
most of our lifetime, but enough to get the job done so that we can get
deficits under control and, most importantly, make the investments that are
going to be required for America to thrive.
BREAM: You talk about everyone paying their fair share. It's a popular
talking point. The president has talked many times about the fact that he
doesn't want to raise taxes and he won't on people who are making less than
$400,000 a year. But even The New York Times, poring through the budget
proposal, says that's not actually true.
Jim Tankersley writing this, he says: "The documents forecast that Mr.
Biden and Congress will allow tax cuts for low and middle income Americans,
signed into law by President Donald J. Trump in 2017, to expire as
scheduled in 2025." So doesn't that practically actually translate into a
real-world tax hike for people?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, that's a forecast and a set of assumptions about
something that is years away and we'll see what the policy choices are at
that time. But right now, in this moment, we have a decision to make. What
are we going to do with tax rates right now? And the president is saying,
let's not charge middle class Americans more.
Middle class Americans are paying enough right now, in the president's
view. Let's make sure that corporations and the wealthy are paying their
fair share. And we believe that's going to raise the kind of revenue that
we need in order to fund the proposals that the president has put forward.
Again, you look at something like the American Jobs Plan, the
infrastructure vision that the president has put out, the entire thing is
paid for across 15 years by the -- by year 16 deficits going down and he
does it without asking one penny from the middle class.
BREAM: But if this budget proposal, the $6 trillion budget proposal,
which encompasses those things, actually lets those tax rates expire, that
tax cut expire, and it's premised on that being part of the funding for
this plan, isn't that -- doesn't it equate to a tax hike on people making
less than $400,000 a year?
BUTTIGIEG: You know, I feel like there are some politicians hoping to
have a hypothetical debate about decisions Congress will make in 2025 to
get out of the real debate we're having in 2021 about what tax policy ought
to be right now. The president is saying that we've got to make sure
corporations and wealthy pay their fair share. The American people agree
with him. And we think it's time to get that done.
BREAM: So, negotiations continue this morning on the infrastructure
package but one of the biggest items -- the biggest item is $400 billion
for home health care or long term care. NPR described it this way, because
services can include home visits from nurses or occupational therapists,
assistance with personal care, such as eating or bathing, help from case
managers, attendance at adult daycare centers, help with cooking, cleaning,
and other chores, transportation, and home repairs and modification.
Mr. Secretary, those are all good things. We all think those are laudable
goals but they don't line up with probably the definition of infrastructure
that most average Americans would think of.
BUTTIGIEG: Look, if you have a different category you'd like to put it in,
that's fine. We should still do it and we should do it as part of the
American Jobs Plan. We think of it as infrastructure because infrastructure
is the foundation that lets people participate in the economy.
And, as so many people watching this program know, when you're taking care
of a loved one, doing some of those things because you don't have the right
kind of care structure to look after them and you can't even get a job
because you're in this elder care situation, because somehow we're one of
the only developed countries that doesn't take care of this, that's holding
you back the same way it holds you back if you don't have a road or bridge
to get to where you want to go.
But, look, if somebody has a different view on the categories, that's fine.
That's a philosophical debate that I don't think is as important as --
(CROSSTALK)
BREAM: -- but that's not roads and bridges --
BUTTIGIEG: -- in doing this --
BREAM: I mean, that's something that --
(CROSSTALK)
BUTTIGIEG: -- do it now.
BREAM: It is a good thing but it doesn't meet (ph) with what average
people think of ports (ph), even water, lead pipes, repairing those things.
There's a lot agreement between Democrats and Republicans on those things.
But where do you actually draw the line? What's not infrastructure?
BUTTIGIEG: This is called the American Jobs Plan because it contains a
number of measures that are going to help Americans not only get jobs but
thrive in our country today. And this is part of it.
We think these things fit together. And of course, it's not unusual in
legislation to take a number of different elements that are part of a
related theme and move them at the same time because Americans can't wait
for us to resolve the dorm room debate over which policies belong in which
categories. They want us to just get it done.
It's why the president's Jobs Plan is so overwhelmingly popular among the
American people. Now we're trying to get Washington to catch up and to
actually do something.
BREAM: Well, when you start to poll them about how to pay for it and what
actually infrastructure means, those numbers change. We're going to discuss
that coming up.
Secretary Buttigieg, thank you for your time. Thanks for coming in today.
Always great to talk to you.
BUTTIGIEG: Thanks for having me. Great.
BREAM: Reaction from the top Republican negotiator, Senator Shelley Moore
Capito, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: Now for more on Senate Republicans' counteroffer to President Biden
on infrastructure, joining us from West Virginia, the lead Republican
negotiator, Senator Shelley Moore Capito.
Senator, great to have you with us this morning.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): Thank you, Shannon. Good to be on.
Thanks.
BREAM: So, let me ask you this. Where do we stand with negotiations this
morning?
I know you've been talking with the president. There's been some public
speculation about who is really calling the shots. Even Senator Mark
Warner, a Democrat, saying, I've had my calls returned quickly, I'm talking
with the legislative team, but even I'm not really sure who's making the
decisions.
What's your impression and where do things stand this morning?
CAPITO: Well, I think the president is making the decisions. And when we
went to the Oval Office, six of us, to talk about a bipartisan
infrastructure package, the president basically tasked us to come back with
something close to $1 trillion in areas and the scope that we as
Republicans feel constitutes infrastructure. Also, we could -- we could
spread it over an eight-year period of time.
And that's exactly what we have done. And we've got a great basis for this
because we just passed a surface transportation bill unanimously out of my
committee with Senator Carper as the chairman. And so I think we are
building those blocks towards -- towards a really good, solid
infrastructure package that has bipartisan support.
So, we're responding to what the president has said. He told me on the
phone just the day before yesterday, let's get this done. And I think that
means that he has -- his heart is in us. We have had some back and forth
with his staff to sort of pull back a little bit, but I think we're
smoothing out those edges.
BREAM: I'm going to play something that your Democratic colleague, Senator
Elizabeth Warren, had to say in response to the GOP's $928 billion
counteroffer. Here's her take.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): I don't really think this is a serious
counteroffer. We were in a crisis before the pandemic hit. It only got
worse during the pandemic. This is our chance to expand our idea of what
infrastructure means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: A couple of sticking points there. One of them is the most basic,
is about the understanding of what infrastructure is. Secretary Pete
Buttigieg says it should be all-encompassing because if people can't work,
they can't travel the roads, they can't use infrastructure.
How do you guys define this? Can you get to some middle ground on that?
CAPITO: Well, we disagree on the definition of infrastructure and we've
been working with the president to bring it back to the physical core idea
of infrastructure that we've worked so well on in the past. Whether that's
road and bridges, waterways, ports, lead pipes, transit, airports, and also
the new infrastructure which we must have everywhere, a broadband. Those
are great categories I think that we can work together on.
You know, I think it is so easy to say, let's throw everything in -- and I
think that's what the president did initially. Human infrastructure, social
infrastructure, great things to talk about, things that we need to address
-- daycare, senior care, all those items. But that's not what we consider
physical infrastructure on modernizing our transportation system to meet
the -- you know, the next century challenges, and that's where I think we
need to concentrate our effort at this point.
BREAM: "The Washington Post" did a fact-check on this, about Republicans'
claims that only 5 percent to 7 percent of the Biden plan is, quote, real
infrastructure. He gave three out of four possible Pinocchios on that,
saying this: To say that Biden's plan would devote only 5 percent to 7
percent of its $2.3 trillion cost -- and it's moved since then -- toward
real infrastructure, is highly misleading, the kind of talking point that
tries to erase recent history and parts of the English language as a battle
begins to heat up in Congress.
What's accurate about where you are now in getting to those core terms?
CAPITO: Well, the president has $400 billion for the care economy, the
ones we were talking about -- elder care, daycare and those things. As I
said, great things to talk about, but not part of a core physical
infrastructure package.
He also had a large section in there on research and development and
manufacturing, something that's not considered initially as infrastructure.
But we're working that bill right now in the Senate floor, the Endless
Frontier Act. And so, we're going to have bipartisan agreement there.
He has a part of his plan that is incentives for buying electric vehicles.
You know, that -- building out the infrastructure for electric vehicles,
charging stations, we have that on our plan. But vouchers to purchase the
automobiles and other things, that I think is something we need to discuss
at a different time.
And these are hundreds of billions of dollars in his plan. We just think we
would be better off if we just looked at a core, solid definition that is
traditionally thought of as infrastructure and move that to the next
modernization to where we are the best and most technological superior
infrastructure in the world.
BREAM: So, working on the definition of infrastructure, the deadline is
now blown and continues to loom on this, but also how to pay for it.
Democrats say that it makes sense to roll that cuts for corporate taxes.
You know, I tried to press the secretary on whether this is also going to
mean rolling back taxes on individuals which at the corporate point, he
said there are billions of dollars in corporate profits that are going
untaxed.
Here's what Senator Dick Durbin had to say about the plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): They don't want to touch the wealthiest and the
big corporations who receive a generous tax break under the Trump tax plan.
But they haven't come up with an alternative. And so, I hope they'll join
us in a responsible effort.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: So, are tax increases a red line for the GOP whether we're talking
about corporations or individual?
CAPITO: The tax cuts of 2017 led to the most booming economy that we had
pre-pandemic. Here in Virginia, wages up, more diversity in the workforce,
more people working. It was working in terms of spreading out the economic
growth all throughout all sectors of our economy.
So, we're -- I'm not going to vote to overturn those, but I can tell you,
we do have a plan. We have put over the course of the last year and a half,
trillions of dollars into COVID relief and much of that is unspent. We say
reprogram that.
The administration has already reprogrammed about $2.5 billion into Health
and Human Services to help with migrant children. So we know they're not
opposed to reprogramming COVID dollars and rescue dollars.
Let's take a lot of those dollars, for instance, the unemployment that
states are no longer extending into $300. Let's take those dollars and
devote them to something that's core infrastructure. That is part of our
plan as well.
We also have user fees in there, because there's no reason that folks who
have electric cars or hybrids, who used the roads, there's no reason that
they shouldn't -- because they don't buy gasoline, don't pay gas tax, which
is traditional resource to pay for those, but there's no reason why they
shouldn't participate.
So, we have laid out the ways to pay for this, and I think it doesn't
involve raising our taxes. We all know when you raise taxes in one place,
it's felt everywhere. And with the stagnation of our economy, we saw slow
job growth last month, let's make sure that we get everything reopen and
the economy fully going full steam.
BREAM: So, the vast majority of your proposal does include hundreds of
billions of dollars, you all say unspent COVID funds.
Here's what the White House said about that when Press Secretary Jen Psaki
was asking -- asked about it. She said: Here's why that would be difficult
to be a key mechanism. Ninety-five percent of it is already allocated
somewhere else.
So, Democrats say that means you really only bringing about $250 billion in
new spending to the table. It's trillions apart from where the White House
started.
So, does it represent real compromise?
CAPITO: I think we can get to real compromise, absolutely, because we're
both still in the game. I think the president told me himself that let's
get this done.
We realize this is not easy. I think we bring every idea that's on the
table into the negotiations to see how we can achieve this and get it
across the threshold.
But I think it's interesting that the spokes -- the president's
spokesperson said everything has been allocated. It hasn't gone out the
door. We have hundreds of billions of dollars that could be reprogrammed
toward something as core as infrastructure, and I think that's what we
should be looking at rather than put -- you know, force-feeding into
certain categories where really it's not part of COVID, it's not a part of
a rescue package. It's dollars that were way over-allocated that still have
yet to be spent.
BREAM: You know at the heart of the matter, Democrats may not need your
votes for this. There is a push from the progressive left of the party to
do another reconciliation package and just to -- not get too wonky, but
what it means essentially is they wouldn't need a single Republican vote to
get this across the finish line. That's what they did with the last almost
$2 trillion COVID relief bill.
What -- or what's your assessment of where a cutoff will be there will be
no more negotiations and Democrats potentially go that route without you?
CAPITO: You know, the Democrats and the president can go that route right
now. And there's a reason that they aren't, and I think that's because they
are seeing that through our committee work, with our surface transportation
bill, with our water and wastewater bill that we passed several months ago,
$35 billion, that we're working this through the system, Endless Frontier
on the cusp of being passed in terms of our competitiveness with China.
And I think there is a hunger for bipartisanship. The president stood on
the Capitol steps and said he's the resident of everybody, represents
Republicans and Democrats. He has expressed to me and to our group numerous
times his desire to work with us and to negotiate a package. I think that's
what we see and, in fact, we are inching towards one another.
I understand there's a deadline here. I understand at some point, if we
don't get there, it -- but it won't be for trying. It won't be because we
didn't try.
And it's worth it. It's worth it to show this country we can work together.
We can reach compromise for the good of everybody.
BREAM: And I think the American people are cheering for you all.
So, Senator, thank you for joining us. We'll follow the negotiations.
CAPITO: Thanks, Shannon.
BREAM: Up next, the Biden administration orders a closer review into the
origins of COVID-19, as U.S. intelligence takes another look at the lab
leak theory. We're going to ask our Sunday panel about the science, the
politics and the bias surrounding the debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: Coming up, renewed focus on theory COVID-19 may have originated in
a lab.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS
DISEASES: Because we don't know 100 percent what the origin is, it's
imperative that we look and we do an investigation. That's how we feel
right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: We'll ask our Sunday panel about the shifting focus.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): Why did you dismiss the lab leak theory as -- as
credible?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I
have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a naturally
occurrence. I didn't dismiss anything.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: I agree with
him that it is most likely that this is a virus that arose naturally, but
we cannot exclude the possibility of some kind of a lab accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Francis Collins,
director of the National Institutes of Health, getting grilled this week
over the potential origins of COVID-19.
It's time now for our Sunday group. Former Republican Congressman Jason
Chaffetz, pollster and Fox News contributor Kristen Soltis Anderson, and
Fox News political analyst Juan Williams.
Great to see you all on this Sunday morning.
SO what we heard there from Dr. Fauci is that he thinks the other theory is
more viable, but he says he didn't dismiss the leak theory. Here's what he
said in "National Geographic." They had an exclusive interview with him in
May 2020. He did talk about the other theory about this being natural. They
characterized the rest of the conversation saying this, based on the
scientific evidence, he also doesn't entertain an alternate theory that
someone found the coronavirus in the wild, brought it into a lab and then
it accidentally escaped.
Jason, a lot of folks shifting their perspective on potential theories,
whether they're viable, whether they should get you silenced or muted or
not. Now we're allowed to talk about it. Why?
JASON CHAFFETZ, FORMER CONGRESSMAN (R-UT) AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well,
ultimately, I want to get to the truth, but it's -- it's disappointing that
they didn't look at it -- this more seriously a year ago. President Trump
was saying that this was a possibility. Senator Cotton was saying that that
was a possibility. I'm guessing that the intelligence services were
suggesting that this might be a possibility. But I'm glad that the
Democrats, albeit a year later, are finally coming to the game and the
realization that we really don't know and we better darn well find out so
that it never, ever happens again.
And there has been a lack of cooperation from China. There's been a lack of
cooperation and trust really in the World Health Organization. And that's
problematic.
BREAM: I want to play something from David Asher. He was the lead State
Department investigator on this. I've talked with him about what they were
trying to do in getting to the origins. He explains what their mission was
on and -- and what they were finding according to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID ASHER, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Despite the claims of our
scientific community, there was almost no evidence that supported a natural
zoonotic, you know, evolution or source of COVID-19.
The data disproportionately stacked up as we investigated that it was
coming out of a lab or some supernatural source.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: And, Juan, those as we talked about a year ago, if you made that
suggestion, your posts were edited on social media, were banned. There was
plenty of information that there could have been numerous different
theories. Why so quick to shut that one down and why now, the media a year
later saying, OK, it's viable?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think "The Wall Street
Journal" reported that some people got sick at that lab I think it's in
November of 2019. No, we don't know if they got COVID or they got the flu,
Shannon, but what we know now is that there were some people who were sent
to the hospital from that lab. And we also know that the military was
involved in experiments at that lab, raising the possibility of bio
weapons.
But the Trump administration never was able to find a smoking gun or
produce it publicly in any case. So the urgency, you know, when Dr. Fauci
was speaking in May of last year, was about stopping the spread of the
disease here in the United States and cutting down on the death rate. We
were in the midst of a pandemic. So, I think, at that point, you know, kind
of this theory or that theory was very much secondary to what we had to
deal with as the American people, what the administration had to deal with.
And, of course, there's politics involved here. I think there were lots of
people in the Trump administration who wanted to distract from the poor job
that the Trump administration was doing with the virus in the United States
by saying, hey, the Chinese are the problem. And the Chinese, even in terms
of investigation, they're just bad actors. I mean these people can't be
trusted. You know, if you tell the truth over there, you could end up in
jail. So there's lots of politics involved in this.
BREAM: Or worse.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BREAM: Yes, OK.
So now the push is on. There seems to be some agreement, We have to get to
the bottom of this for numerous reasons. And, Jason, as you said, because
if this surfaces again, to prevent it or to be able to deal with things
moving forward.
Here's what Andy Slavitt, who has been a special advisor to President
Biden, especially on this coronavirus issue, said about investigating this
week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY SLAVITT, SENIOR ADVISER, CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE TEAM: We need to get to
the bottom of this and we need a completely transparent process from China.
We need the WHO to assist in that matter. We don't feel like we have that
now. We need to get to the bottom of this, whatever the answer may be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: So there's been praise from the WHO. There's been scorn for the WHO.
The AIDS Healthcare Foundation, which tracks and has been fighting on this
coronavirus question, said this, ten ways the WHO catastrophically failed
the world. One of them they said is this, the WHO panel, which was sent to
China to investigate the origins of COVID-19 was not entirely independent.
It was selected in coordination with the Chinese government and included
people who had clear conflicts of interest due to prior work with the Wuhan
Institute of Virology.
Kristen, should we be depending on WHO at all to get to the bottom of this
now?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, ECHELON INSIGHTS, "WASHINGTON EXAMINER" AND FOX
NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The WHO has an enormous credibility problem. And,
unfortunately, over the last year, a number of experts in the scientific
and public health fields have run into a credibility problem. And part of
that is because a lot of these organizations and experts have been
incapable of saying I don't know. Uncertainty is very hard to communicate,
especially early on and COVID when we don't know where it's coming from,
when we're not yet sure of how it's transmitted. It's OK at that point for
scientists, experts to say, we don't know. We think that you should be
wearing masks. We think that you should be doing x, y, and z. We think it's
transmitted this way, but we don't know, because then when you really do
know, you have the credibility to come to people and say, we know where
this virus came from. We know what you should be doing to prevent the
spread of it.
I think too early on there were too many experts who said, nope, we know
exactly where this came from or, nope, we know exactly how this spreads and
wound up being wrong and that means that now those same experts, when
they're asking us to do things like take vaccines that we know to be safe,
there are large portions of the public that look at that and go, you know,
I'm not sure I trust those experts. And that lack of credibility, both with
experts here in the U.S. and especially experts around the world, is a huge
problem for dealing with global health problems coming down the road.
BREAM: And at the end of the day this all goes back to China, the lack of
access, the danger to people there on the ground who would speak out and --
and try to give truth to investigators. I talked to former Secretary of
State Mike Pompeo about this, how we deal with China going forward on
Friday night. Here's what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: This information is in the
possession of the Chinese Communist Party and President Biden has a
responsibility to raise this every time he talks with Xi Jinping. You know,
Shannon, we've talked about this laboratory, this Wuhan Institute of
Virology from which the Wuhan virus may well have escaped. The Chinese
Communist Party knows the answer to that. President Biden has the
responsibility to ask Xi Jinping and demand that he does this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Jason, are you confident he will?
CHAFFETZ: That's what he should do. Hasn't happened yet.
I think Secretary Pompeo is absolutely right. I think there was a lot of
misdirection from China early on. It did not help that the Democrats were -
- were charging at Donald Trump when he tried to shut off the border and
limit travel and call it all different things that weren't true.
It hasn't been based on science from the beginning and I -- I've got to
tell you, we have to figure this out but it has to happen at the level of
President Biden. He has to be the one pressing China and we haven't seen
that yet.
BREAM: So we're going into this first, quote/unquote, holiday weekend, the
first one in a long time, without all of the COVID lockdown and mask
mandates and things that we've had.
"The New York Times" says this, the holiday weekend comes amid a national
decline in coronavirus cases, hospitalizations and deaths. All across the
country, mask mandates are easing, restrictions are lifting and many states
have gone back to business as usual.
Juan, where do you assess that we are on this Memorial Day weekend when it
comes to the fight against COVID?
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm feeling optimistic, Shannon. I went to a baseball game
indoors last night. My team didn't win, but so be it.
But if you just stop and think about it, you know, our families, if you
choose to get a vaccination, you have every reason to feel safe and
vaccinations are available. You can even win the lottery be getting
vaccinated.
You think about where we are now compared to when President Biden took
office. You know, infection rates are down 90 percent, death rates down 80
percent. That's incredible. I mean that -- to me, that's a real
accomplishment for the American people to celebrate.
The president had talked about July 4th at a point when we could get
together. I think many families are together this weekend. And, again, I
think we should understand that the United States has gone from lagging in
terms of global -- how other countries, western democracies, industrialized
countries have handled COVID from lagging in that competition to now being
a leader, an exemplar of how it can be done and even offering to help other
countries in terms of getting the vaccine out to them.
BREAM: Yes, and thanks to Operation Warp Speed, all of these things have
been positive developments here and around the world.
All right, panel, we've got to take a break. Kristen, we'll start with you
when we come back.
Up next, President Biden goes on offense against his economic critics,
while Republicans are sounding the alarm over inflation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The Biden economic plan is working. We
had record job creation. We're seeing record economic growth. We're
creating a new paradigm.
SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): Your wages never go up as fast as inflation is
going up. We have got to stop this reckless spending.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: President Joe Biden and Republican Senator Rick Scott, very
different takes on the U.S. state of the economy.
We're back now with our panel.
Kristen, they clearly see things differently, the assessment of where we
are and where we're going.
ANDERSON: Well, there are three main themes that I see in polls around this
issue. One is that many of the things included in Biden's plan are
generally popular on their own when not associated with a price tag. The
second is that most of them are not viewed as infrastructure. Roads and
bridges, airports, absolutely, but a lot of these other things that the
Biden administration is trying to shoe-horn in under the label of
infrastructure to make them more popular, it's just -- people aren't buying
it.
But most importantly, I think, is when you talk about the price tag of much
of this, there really are concerns about inflation, which, not to date
myself, but that's something that I have -- that voters have not really
been concerned about during my lifetime. This is a problem that is
relatively new going back over decades and decades and is caused by the
type of government spending and the potential overheating of the economy
coming out of this pandemic.
So, on the one hand, it's good that our economy is starting to try to come
back, but if we're just putting too much government money into the system,
you're going to have people seeing their cost of living go up and that's a
huge, huge problem. People know that when they're going to the grocery
store, when they're going to the pump, things are costing more money.
That's inflation. It's hitting people in their pocketbooks. And it's a real
problem the Biden administration needs to address.
BREAM: Juan, you and I might be a little bit older than Kristen. I remember
back to the '70s and waiting in the gas lines and inflation worries.
Interest rates on mortgages, all those kinds of things, hearing my parents
whisper about that stuff and be very nervous and worried.
Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie is predicting that President
Biden is morphing in to President Carter, who was running the country
during those times.
What do you make of that assessment?
WILLIAMS: I think that's very political assessment, so I'll leave it to
him.
But, you know, I think this economy is taking off and it's taking off fast.
It's going from zero to 60. Obviously, we were shut down because of the
pandemic and now we're opening up in a big way.
So when you have that kind of takeoff, Shannon, you're going to have some
turbulence. I mean, obviously, something like the used car market is very
tight right now, hard to get a used car. Why? Because, you know, it was
done away with pretty much during the pandemic. Lumber, housing, you know,
a lot of the lumber mills had shut down. So you're going to get things like
that, some turbulence on takeoff. But if you talk to the mainstream
economists in the country, they all say this is temporary. They don't see
inflation down the road as a major threat.
You know, right now, this Memorial Day weekend, there's high demand for
gas. We didn't have a lot of people drying around for the last year and
then we had a Colonial Pipeline shutdown with the hack.
So these things happen, but I'm not sure that they're long term. You look
at the stock market right now, you look at the price of Treasury bonds,
inflation there is estimated like 1.5 percent over the next ten years.
That's not a problem.
BREAM: Well, Jason, I talked to Secretary Buttigieg about this, about Larry
Summers, who, as, again, I noted, under the Obama/Biden administration, he
was the director of the White House National Economic Council. He was
sounding a warning this week in a call that was released. He talked about
the levels at which we're borrowing. He was concerned about the impact on
the dollar, the potential that it would trigger more inflation. He's not a
super conservative right-leaning guy.
CHAFFETZ: The Biden administration is growing government. That's where
they've put all their marbles. If you look back ten years, the budget put
forward by President Biden is more than 50 percent larger than it was just
ten years ago. That's growing government.
And, remember, all the stimulus and infrastructure and all these other
things they want to put on top of that. The number is stunning. They what
they're doing is growing government. And you have small businesses, and
medium size and even large sides businesses competing against the
government because the government has made it so rich not to go back to
work.
And so these things have got to reconcile. But I do not believe that the
government is a sole source of how you create jobs. The American people
create jobs, not government. And when it becomes so large, approaching 25
percent of our gross domestic product, something has got to be put back in
balance. It is far too big.
BREAM: Well, they're still having these negotiations now. We talk
specifically about the infrastructure bill this morning. They're still
about $1 trillion apart at last check. This is something that Senator
Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat, had to say about this. He says, I fully
understand the president's instinctive desire for a bipartisan solution and
that would be the best of all worlds, but it takes two to tango and so far
they've refused to come to the dance floor.
Senator Shelley Moore Capito, who was with us, would beg to differ on that,
Kristen, but what about this conversation now that this may not be
bipartisan? This may be like the last $2 trillion, roughly, bill that got
passed, the COVID relief bill. Democrats could conceivably move ahead with
trillions on infrastructure without a Republican vote, a single one.
ANDERSON: But if the Biden administration does move ahead without really
seriously trying to court Republican buy-in on something this large, it's
going to undercut one of the core things that President Biden said when he
was running for office and then when he took office, which is that he wants
to be someone who will unify the country.
I see in poll after poll that we are so divided as a nation that folks of
two different parties look at one another and just can't find many places
where they get along. But the idea that we need to fix our nation's roads
and bridges is one of those areas where Republicans and Democrats tend to
be on the same page. Even though the sticker price on a lot of this is
pretty high, Republicans have actually said, let's do even more for roads
and bridges than the original Biden plan laid out because that kind of
spending is going to be long-term investment for us. It's not going to be
the kind of spending that leads to inflation. Let's get there.
And so I think if the Biden administration does get pulled too far to the
left, if the progress voices in the party are too loud and don't allow for
some kind of gradual, incremental work on this issue that does involve
Republican buy-in, it would be a huge missed opportunity and a failure of
the administration to carry out that one big promise to be a unifier.
BREAM: Yes, the progressives want this number to be much bigger, these
spending numbers, and they, again, are pressing for move ahead through
reconciliation if they have to so you don't have to negotiate with
Republicans. Some of them saying, just stop doing it, it's wasting time. It
doesn't sound very bipartisan despite what the president has said about
that.
Here's how "The Wall Street Journal," in an opinion piece, talked about
this level of spending that we're at, getting to World War II levels based
on the president's budget, saying this, federal spending in the World War
II era allowed the United States to save western civilization by defeating
Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. The Biden spending plan will subsidize
daycare and electric cars among other political desires. Unclear is what
the U.S. will do in the tragic event it has to found victory in a world war
again.
Juan.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think we've got about three weeks. You know, I think
Senator Capito, who you interviewed this morning, Shannon, is negotiating
in good faith. She wants a deal. What you just heard from Kirsten Soltis
Anderson is that the American people want this deal across political lines.
Republicans and Democrats, these policies are popular.
The difficulty here is how you pay for it. I think they're -- the
Republicans are clearly all about user fee, gas taxes, tolls, price on
electric vehicles, all that kind of thing. Democrats say they want to raise
the taxes on the corporations and on the rich. And I think there's a big
divide there.
Now, the politics of this, very quickly, is, I think that there's no
indication from the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, that he is
looking for a deal here. I think that he worries that this is -- might be a
popular plan but he'd rather not give the credit to Biden and he also wants
Biden to have to deal with any political fallout that comes from a big
price tag. And I think you have to look at it down the road. That -- I mean
this is politics. This is why we aren't having a January 6th commission.
That's for (ph) politics and this is about politics.
BREAM: Kristen, very quickly, before we have to go. To that point about,
Juan -- about polling, the administration has pointed to this quite a bit
saying it's bipartisan. Even if you don't get a GOP vote, they say it polls
well with Republicans. But as you've said, when you get into the nitty-
gritty about what it's going to cost people, attitudes can often shift.
CHAFFETZ: This is laughable and it's a joke to suggest that it is paid for.
ANDERSON: You're absolutely right. People would like to see --
BREAM: Let me ask Kristen to the polling point here.
ANDERSON: Sorry, go ahead.
CHAFFETZ: Sorry. Sorry.
ANDERSON: Sure.
You -- I think this is a piece of legislation that without the price tag
people think is -- is wonderful. That there are a lot of things in it that
are great. But when you begin talking about spending tax dollars on it, it
becomes less popular. When you begin testing out the different ways to get
the money to pay for it, it becomes less popular.
So, as always, the devil is in the details.
BREAM: It is.
All right, thank you very much, panel, we'll see you next Sunday.
Up next, our "Power Player" this Memorial Day weekend. A man whose made it
his life's work to honor veterans with these 24 musical notes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BREAM: We first met him 12 years ago sharing the story of how he's worked
to insures all veterans receive a proper tribute. It's become a Memorial
Day tradition here. Once again, here's Chris Wallace with the "Power Player
of the Week."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM DAY, FOUNDER, BUGLES ACROSS AMERICA: When you're playing it, it's only
24 notes, but it's so meaningful to that family.
WALLACE (voice over): Tom Day is talking about playing "Taps" at the
funerals of military veterans, and he should know.
He's the founder and president of an organization called Bugles Across
America.
WALLACE: (on camera): All told, how many funerals have you done since you
started Bugles Across America?
DAY: At 200,000.
WALLACE: Really?
DAY: In ten years. Right.
WALLACE (voice over): It started back in 2000, when Congress gave every vet
the right to a funeral with military honors, including two uniformed
officers to present a flag and play "Taps." The problem was, the military
only had 500 bugler's, so they sent someone to play a recorded "Taps" on a
boom box or an electronic device inside a bugle.
Tom Day, who played in the Marines in the '50s, didn't like it.
DAY: I call it stolen dignity that these veterans can't get live "Taps"
when we are out there ready to perform live "Taps."
WALLACE: So he started his organization, recruiting 400 horn players within
a year.
DAY: Now we have 6,270 horn players. And we're doing 2,200 funerals a
month.
WALLACE: It's become quite an operation that Day runs out of his basement
near Chicago. Families can go on his website to ask for a bugler. A message
is sent to every horn player within 100 miles of the funeral. Day gives
away bugles and helps with uniforms. While he gets support from
foundations, he runs a deficit every year.
WALLACE (on camera): How do you make up for the shortfall?
DAY: I kind of make it up myself.
WALLACE: $15,000, $20,000 a year?
DAY: Probably ten. You finish, you know, the last of the 24 notes, you put
the horn down and the flag has been presented, then the family comes over.
The kisses, the handshakes from these families, there is nothing -- no
amount of money could ever buy the feeling that I get from the family once
I've finished the 24 notes.
WALLACE (voice over): With soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus
some 400 veterans of World War II dying every day, there is a flood of
military funerals. Day says he wants to keep going until he dies, then
leave his organization in solid shape to carry on.
DAY: I want every family to have live "Taps" at that going away
presentation of their veteran. And it kind of tells the Marines who are
guarding the gates in heaven, live "Taps," we're going to let this veteran
right in.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: What a beautiful, beautiful organization and effort.
By the way, for those who are visiting Arlington National Cemetery this
Memorial Day weekend, both the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and President
John F. Kennedy's gravesite are now fully reopened to the public.
God bless each of you who is remembering the loss of a loved one who died
in service of our great country.
That is it for us today. I'll see you all this week on "FOX NEWS AT NIGHT"
and Chris will see you right back here for next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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