Fiorina: It's significant for Biden to have union backing

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Fiorina: It's significant for Biden to have union backing

Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina on politics in the #MeToo era, Joe Biden and the rest of the 2020 Democratic field.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," April 30, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Beautiful baby, a beautiful night at the White House. Thank you, Brett.

All right, everybody. Breaking right now, we have two fast-moving stories that were following live for you this evening. Here is one. Joe Biden, the front-runner rising in the polls about to take the stage in Iowa. A state that sent him home back in 1988 when he got less than one percent of the vote -- 2008 rather. But tonight, he is in a very different spot after eight years as vice president.

And now, a live look at the very volatile situation that is unfolding tonight in Venezuela. Where Nicolas Maduro is in hiding after deciding not to get on a plane this morning to Cuba and the White House is urging him to turn around that decision and get on that plane and go. They say all options are on the table to preserve democracy there.

Good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum, and this is “The Story.” Joe Biden continues to filled questions on the decades-old Anita Hill hearings. He'd answer them again this morning.

But now, some are saying that all this apologizing is rewriting the past. And that it's somewhat unfair to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, who after the long and dramatic hearings, had the belief of 58 percent of Americans, 24 percent believed to the story of Professor Anita Hill.

Betsy McCaughey and a piece about to publish in the New York Post, writes of Biden, saying that he wished the committee had been more fair to Hill. "Sorry, Joe. That's rewriting history. The hearing was fair, Hill's testimony was full of holes and devoid of evidence to back up her claim."

There are also questions tonight about how Biden is now saying that he believed Anita Hill from the very beginning. When in Justice Clarence Thomas's 2007 book, he writes that as the story came out, Biden told him "I will be your biggest defender."

There's a lot to unravel here tonight. Marc Thiessen and Chris Hann, standing by. Also with me here in New York, Carly Fiorina, with her unique take on all of this.

But let's go first to Mike Tobin, who is live in Iowa as we await the former Vice President Joe Biden. Good evening, Mike.

MIKE TOBIN, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. We are expecting is his appearance here in Dubuque, Iowa any minute now, his second official stop of the day. Somewhat of a light date here in Iowa. There was an unofficial stop at between Cedar Rapids and Dubuque at an ice cream store in Monticello.

But when he made his first official stop, Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Biden wasted little time getting into the general election business and gunning for President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can't afford four more years of a president whose entire agenda has been to divide the country, to split us. To make us be -- we have to talk about unity. We have to bring people back together again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOBIN: Now, this is Biden's third time as a solo candidate in Iowa. In 1988, it ended poorly. And 2008, he took fifth place in Iowa with less than one percent of the vote, dropped out shortly after that.

Now, he shows up in Iowa with this dominant lead. According to the latest CNN poll, he's 24 points ahead of Bernie Sanders, and the rest of the Democrats are polling in the single digits. Some pick campaign veterans say, being out front this early makes Biden vulnerable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL, CHIEF POLITICS REPORTER, DES MOINES REGISTER: So, he's coming in really with a target on his back this time. You know, as a front-runner, people are already targeting him not least of which is the President of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOBIN: About a half hour ago, Biden weighed in over Twitter on Venezuela. Writing. "The violence in Venezuela today against peaceful protesters is criminal. Maduro's regime is responsible for incredible suffering. The U.S. must stand with the National Assembly and Guaido in their efforts to restore democracy."

So, a serious element to another wise, exciting day for the Biden camp as they show up in Iowa with a commanding lead. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Mike, thank you very much. We'll be back there in just a few moments. Here now, Marc Thiessen, American Enterprise Institute scholar, and Fox News contributor. And Chris Hann n, syndicated radio host and former aide to Senator Chuck Schumer. Great to have both of you with us this evening.

MARC THIESSEN, CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be with you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Marc, first to you, you know, your thoughts on the fact that as we sort of watch all this unfold, and everybody rehashing the Anita Hill story, which is decades old.

THIESSEN: Yes, yes.

MACCALLUM: You have to -- you know, think also about Clarence Thomas who's watching all of this -- you know, play out yet again and sort of going through the very painful process that it was for him as well.

THIESSEN: And he had to go through it during the Kavanaugh hearings too because everyone was rehashing the history back then. I mean, look, Joe Biden is a super old candidate. He's 76, he'll be -- if he wins here the presidency, he'll be 77 years old on the day of his inauguration. That's the same age Ronald Reagan was when he left office.

And one of the problems with being old as a candidate is you bring up -- you have old baggage. And so, you've got the Anita Hill hearings. This happened in 1991. So, there's a poll out there that shows 30 percent of Democrats don't approve of his handling of the Anita Hill hearings. 44 percent don't know, because they weren't born. You know, so, and. You know, as his lead expands --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

THIESSEN: As we're seeing in the polling coming in that he's got a 24 point lead or so. It makes it more likely this is going to be central on the campaign because the 19 other Democrats in counting are going to go after him on it. The more his lead grows, and the more they're falling behind them, or they're going to be going after Joe Biden on the Anita Hill things.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, that's exactly right. You know, Chris Hann, I want to play this for you from -- this is a quote from Lucy Flores. That one of the women who accused him of inappropriate touching. She said, "As Anita Hill recently found out, not exactly sorry, either. What do we do when the offender hasn't bothered to take the first step forward toward forgiveness?" And then you have this from Mika Brzezinski this morning on Morning Joe, watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKA BRZEZINSKI, HOST, MSNBC: I can promise you, I know Joe Biden, he went up behind her. And he took a deep breath because he was about to go on stage. You took it deeply personal -- personally, and now, you're writing a New York Times op-ed about it demanding an apology. This once again is completely ridiculous and the rest of America thinks it's ridiculous too. I'm done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Chris Hann.

CHRIS HANN, FORMER SENIOR AIDE TO SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: I don't think she's totally wrong.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

HANN: Look, I think Lucy Flores may have felt her personal space invaded, but she even said herself that she didn't think it was sexual in nature or meant to offend. So, I think it's time to move on from Lucy Flores. I also think that what Vice President Biden said about Anita Hill, I think that was good enough. I think that we've moved to a different place in our society than we were in 1991 when these hearings were going on. I think more people believe Anita Hill today than believed for then, who remember those hearings. Just like more people believe Monica Lewinsky today than believed her in the 90s.

So, things have changed, our nation has evolved. I think Joe Biden is a good man, and I think that if he -- if he has invaded people's space or made them feel uncomfortable, I don't think he was intending to do that in a -- in a negative way. In the same way that we think that there are -- you know, there are some people who have done this, and they -- and women should be believed.

THIESSEN: Yes.

HANN: But, I do think that Joe Biden is going to move past this and be a very formidable contender.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, he's doing very well.

HANN: And if people will attack -- people will -- people will attack him, Martha, but you know what, most Democrats want, they want somebody who could win. So, whoever rise at the top, sure they could win. That's the guy.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, and I think its most are going to come from the Democratic. Its most are going to come from the Democrat side.

Let's take a look at the CNN poll, which shows him getting an 11 percent bump since this announcement came out.

THIESSEN: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Back to you, Marc Thiessen, in terms of -- you know, what he needs to do in Iowa -- bad memories for him in Iowa from 2008.

THIESSEN: Yes.

MACCALLUM: And some say that he was -- you know, upset that he sort of left the race as early as he did. Both times that he ran, and he doesn't want this stuff to dog him, and that he's going to fight his way through at this time.

THIESSEN: No doubt. I mean, look, he's -- this time, he's the front- runner going in. There was a very different situation back then. He was - - he was in the back of the pack. So, but that's why everybody's going to come after him. And you know, this whole thing about the smelling of the hair, and the rubbing shoulders isn't going to go away, and he says this is from a different era.

It was never OK to come up to a woman you don't know in a work environment and smell her hair and give her a massage. I mean, if someone did that to my daughter tomorrow, it would be pretty ticked off about it, and so, with most Americans. It's just the differences that women are going to come forward now and say something.

HANN: Yes.

THIESSEN: Were they -- before, they were afraid to lose their jobs. And the other thing is that look, Anita Hill said to the New York Times a few weeks ago that Joe Biden set the stage for the Kavanaugh confirmation. That is an open wound for Democrats and that is a very big vulnerability because that's how they're going to go after him.

(CROSSTALK)

HANN: Yes, I mean, this is --

THIESSEN: So, your handing the Anita Hill testimony is set the stage for - - they get it for Brett Kavanaugh to get through in the -- in the Senate, and that's going to hurt him with Democratic.

MACCALLUM: Yes. All right, Chris is starting to get in here. Go ahead, Chris.

HANN: Marc, Marc, you're clutching -- you're clutching your pearls over nothing when we have a president of the United States who've made you grabbing women by the -- you know what, and you had nothing to say about it then.

(CROSSTALK)

THIESSEN: Clutching my pearls?

HANN: You have nothing to say about it now. I think Joe Biden's offenses are minor compared to the president. I think we should all be calling for the release of any non-disclosure agreement that anyone ever signed with the president of the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

THIESSEN: This is (INAUDIBLE) between your side. Oh, come on.

HANN: So, that goes when it became forward and talk about what they experience with sitting president in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, but Chris, the problem is -- the problem is that is -- but the problem is on the Democrat side, Chris. Chris (INAUDIBLE).

THIESSEN: You thumbs that with me, Chris, it's been the fellow Democrats.

HANN: What about smelling people's hair?

THIESSEN: I'm just talking about question your problem.

HANN: Marc, I'm sorry.

THIESSEN: Yes, clutching pearls.

HANN: Hope you're not offended.

MACCALLUM: Marc, Chris, guys, guys, guys. Hello. I'm offended. Chris Hann, you know, the problem is on the Democrat side for him. Because he's got -- you know, 20 people running again -- and 20 people running, right?

HANN: Right.

MACCALLUM: So there -- I mean, he is the target. That's where the target is right now, it's, it's on Joe Biden.

HANN: Yes.

MACCALLUM: All right, guys. I'm want to bring in Carly Fiorina. Thank you very much for being here tonight.

THIESSEN: All right, thanks.

HANN: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Also joining me this evening, Carly Fiorina, who has been down this road. 2016 presidential candidate, former CEO of Hewlett-Packard, and author of the really good new book called, Find Your Way, which I highly recommend, I'm still trying to find my way. Carly, good to see you tonight. Thank you very much.

CARLY FIORINA, FORMER CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, HEWLETT-PACKARD: We all are.

MACCALLUM: Here we all exactly, work-in-progress. So, you know, what do you think about that? What do you think about the relitigation of this Anita Hill thing, and what does it say about Joe Biden or where we are right now in politics?

FIORINA: Well, I do think it says that Joe Biden has to get through a primary in the Democratic Party.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FIORINA: And the Democratic Party is just moving further, and further, and further, and further to the left. But let's take it outside of politics for just one moment. There is real abuse that goes on.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FIORINA: Matt Lauer, other people in this town. Harvey Weinstein, other people in Tinseltown. The gymnastics' coach, there's real assault and real abuse. And this kind of thing diminishes all of that. I'm sorry. Relitigating Anita Hill? That was litigated. And Clarence Thomas as a Supreme Court justice. Brett Kavanaugh was litigated, and he's a Supreme Court justice.

Putting someone's shoulders in a work environment honestly, it happens all the time. And things that may make women uncomfortable doesn't make a man bad, it maybe makes them thoughtless, or clueless, or careless, but not a bad man. But meantime, there is real abuse and assault.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I mean, and that category is all about, yes, being -- yes, being more considerate and being more aware.

FIORINA: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Which he says he wants to do. But you make a great point about the real abuse that goes on out there and how these things sort of become a magnet for discussion. There was an interesting piece today by Salina Zito who wrote about the importance of the union backing that Joe Biden has received so far. Because some people have pooh-poohed it, and said, you know, that's old -- that's the old style of running.

But what these union leaders were saying to her in Pennsylvania is we don't like the fact that the party is going so far left. And that's why we came out so early in favor of Joe Biden. The president says, you know, that the memberships with him not -- and the leadership is with Biden.

FIORINA: Well, here is the thing, here is why the union backing is powerful because unions have a powerful organizing mechanism. They get their people out to vote. And so, Trump shouldn't dismiss that, the other Democratic candidates shouldn't dismiss that. You will recall Hillary Clinton worked really hard to get union backing. And didn't get all the unions to back her.

MACCALLUM: That's right.

FIORINA: Because they weren't with her. So, I think it's --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: They were comfortable with her and they say that.

FIORINA: Yes, yes. So, I think it's actually significant that he does have this backing.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Let's take a listen to this Joe Biden on Medicare at a rally that he was at yesterday. Because this is a big fighting ground for the Democratic Party in deciding who they are and what they support. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: What you're covering it through your employer on your own or not, you all should have a choice to be able to buy into a public option plan for Medicare. Your choice. And the insurance companies isn't doing the right thing by you, you should have another choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Is that politically the right place to be in for him?

FIORINA: Well, I think it -- for most Americans makes a heck of a lot more sense to say, my gosh, how long have we been arguing about health care. But he -- what he's saying is OK, you can have a choice. I was speaking with a left-leaning person today and they said, "Well, health care is a right."

I said, "Yes," but if the Democrat Party or Bernie Sanders or their nominee continue to say the policy is the end of private insurance and a big government program that's going to cover --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Just taking away, right?

FIORINA: I'm sorry.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FIORINA: That's a losing game. That's a losing game. So, I think Biden's trying to thread the needle. But he has his left flank of his party.

MACCALLUM: So, another guy who's gotten a lot of attention is Pete Buttigieg. And he was asked on "The Daily Show" last night if he -- you know, felt that he was benefiting from white male privilege in this very broad group that has a lot of women, and it has people of color in it. Take a look at what he had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG, D-IN, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I do think it's simply harder for candidates of color or for female candidates, and I'm very mindful of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Is that sort of the language that everyone needs to speak these days?

FIORINA: Well, in this case, I think he's right. I think it is harder when you're different. That's not a political comment. When you're different, it's different. So, I think it is different for women, and I think it is different for people of color. And I think things have been done in a certain way for a really long time. So, I agree with them on that.

However, it's a big step to go from that acknowledgment of reality to gee because you're a white man, you're a bad person. Or you shouldn't get this job, or you're not qualified. That's a bridge too far.

MACCALLUM: All right. We're looking at live shots in Venezuela tonight, where if things are getting very agitated on the street. This is actually some pictures from earlier this evening. We're going to get the live shot back up, as well.

You know, what do you think that the White House response should be to this? If you were president, what would you do?

FIORINA: Well, I actually think that the administration has handled this very well. I think they were clear in coming out and backing the legislature and Guaido. I think that early action caused the rest of the world to follow suit. I think that unanimity around the world was very important.

I think it is a demonstration once again that Russia is not our friend, that Cuba is not our friend. However, I also think now we're at a very delicate point. Because you will recall how long the Obama administration and the rest of the world called for Bashar al Assad to go. He must go, he must go, he must go, and he didn't go.

And so I think now we are at the point where the United States has provided all the support that it can, and we need to see what the Venezuelan people do and what the Venezuelan military do.

MACCALLUM: If they need our support?

FIORINA: I think that is a very serious move with major repercussions. And so I would be very thoughtful and careful about that.

MACCALLUM: Carly Fiorina, thank you very much.

FIORINA: Nice to see you.

MACCALLUM: Good to have you on tonight. So as we mentioned, Joe Biden is in Iowa tonight. He's going to take the stage any minute now. There is a lot of reviews and critiques of what he said last night. Let's see how he does tonight when he gets up there.

We'll take a little bit of that as President Trump is at the White House tonight, monitoring the violent clashes that are still going on this evening in the streets. We just saw some real pushback between some of the flashing lights of the Maduro regime and people who are on the streets this evening. We're going to show that to you live in just a moment as Nicolas Maduro weighs his options tonight. We'll go there live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIER: In an interview earlier, you said that Nicolas Maduro was on his way out or planning to leave by plane to Havana, Cuba. How close did he get?

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes, understanding that he was ready to go, he'd made a decision that we've been urging him to make for quite some time, and then he was -- he was diverted from that action by the Russians. We hope -- we hope he'll reconsider and get back on that plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: That was Secretary Pompeo with Bret Baier just moments ago urging Nicolas Maduro to get back on the plane and head for Havana. The White House says that it is time for the rightful leader Juan Guaido to take over. Here he is earlier alongside armed troops telling the people of Venezuela in a video statement this morning that they are in the last stages of the Maduro reign. Saying, "The moment is now to rise up and we have seen that happening throughout the last several hours of the day."

Here is a live look now at what we are getting this evening. And what -- you know what, we're still waiting for our live look. We had live cameras that were looking at this area in the dark which have suddenly disappeared. We don't have access to them at this moment for whatever reason. As soon as we get those back, we will let you know.

In the meantime, the Trump administration says that a peaceful transfer is the hope but that all options are on the table as the violent power struggle continues tonight unfolding in Caracas, Venezuela.

Joining me now is Isaias Medina, a former Senior Diplomat representing Venezuela at the U.N. He left his post there in 2017 in protest to fight what he calls the humanitarian apocalypse that is plaguing his beloved country right now. Isaias, it's good to have you back on the program. Thank you very much for being here tonight.

ISAIAS MEDINA, A FORMER SENIOR DIPLOMAT, VENEZUELA: Thank you -- thank you so much, Martha, for having me. I appreciate it.

MACCALLUM: What -- first of all, I mean, you know, as I said, I don't know if there's anything nefarious behind the fact that we no longer have a video look at what's going on in the streets tonight, but tell me a little bit about your reaction to what you're seeing unfold there right now.

MEDINA: Well, first of all, I have to say that our interim constitutional president Juan Guaido, he has crossed the Rubicon. There is no way back. This is the point of no return and it's about time because there was a response from the military.

And to begin with, we have to look at this from the global perspective that there are many pillars of support for Maduro. Internationally as you've seen, well he's got $12 billion arsenals from Russia and military support. And of course, China with its financial cloud, you have Iran, you have Turkey, they're profiting from a blood gold and all they want to do is just expand their geopolitical stronghold in the region, and to challenge the U.S. values and interest in the hemisphere.

And then, of course, you got the regional situation where Maduro is actually pushing people out. We got 3.7 million people pushed into challenging the sovereignty of Brazil and of Colombia, and then you have the domestic problem.

We have at least 22,000 Cubans infiltrated and armed forces with 40 percent of our territory ELN, FARC, I mean you name it is there and it's moving forward. So I think it was the right moment to do it and now we have to see what is the problem.

China and Russia are managing as well as satellites intelligence surveillance and most probably this what is happening right now with Internet. They closed a radio station this morning. They have put some people in jail, journalists for the last few weeks. Now, this is going to get harder and stronger.

MACCALLUM: It's incredible. And you know, we all think back to the 140 mostly students who were killed by the Maduro regime when these protests began. And I know that was heartbreaking to you and one of the reasons that you left in protest.

I want to play this. This is the Venezuelan Ambassador to the U.N. talking about what he sees as a buildup in the Colombian Embassy. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMUEL MONCADA, VENEZUELAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: It's 3,000 planners, 3,000 intelligence officers, 3,000 trainers, 3,000 technicians, 3,000 information warfare technicians, it's a war embassy. Show wherever in the world there are more than 3,000 Americans in one embassy. So they are planning for war. Let's take off the blindfold and look the reality as it actually is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: What's your reaction to his claim that the United States is readying for war across the border in Colombia?

MEDINA: Listen, there is -- no one else that has been our strongest supporter without a doubt is the Trump administration. Of course, they have led you know, the charge in the international diplomacy arena. And now we have more than 54 democratic free nations recognizing Juan Guaido in what is happening in Venezuela.

I think it's got the wrong country. He's talking about probably Russia and their 100 military technicians that are putting S-300 missile components in our borders. They have already 5,000 man pants that are shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missiles. I mean more dangerous than what we have right now. It would only be to let them keep the stronghold in our territory because this is the gateway to America.

And what they're trying to do with their convergence with terrorism and that's why Iran is present there, FARC and ELN are present there is because they're believing the country dry and there will most probably head into the hemisphere.

MACCALLUM: Well, this is -- it's an important moment. Isaias, you are such a strong voice on this. I thank you very much for being here tonight. And no doubt we'll want to hear from you again in the coming days. Thank you very much, sir.

MEDINA: Thank you so much, Martha. I appreciate it.

MACCALLUM: You're welcome. We appreciate you. So we are waiting for Joe Biden to take the stage. He's been running a little bit late over the course of his candidacy so far over the last couple of days so we're going to take you there live just to get a sense for the feel for the room, the enthusiasm, what he has to say when that gets underway in a few moments.

Plus, 2020 Candidate Cory Booker weighs into the debate over giving prisoners like the marathon bomber in Boston and South Carolina Church shooter Dylann Roof the right to vote from prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does this mean that you would support in franchising people like the Boston marathon bomber, a convicted terrorist and murderer?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the right to vote is inherent to our democracy. Yes, even for terrible people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: That was Senator Bernie Sanders who believes that even the worst offenders still have the right to vote. They carry that with them, he believes, even behind bars.

Now Democratic rival Cory Booker is getting into this debate saying that it's not about whether convicted felons like Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof or the Boston marathon bomber should be allowed to vote but rather what sends people to prison in the first place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CORY BOOKER, D-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Bernie Sanders wants to get into a conversation about whether Dylann Roof and the marathon bomber should have the right to vote, my focus is liberating black and brown people and low-income people from prison.

My focus is tearing down the system of mass incarceration so we don't have to have the debate about people's voting rights because they're not going to prison in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Juan Williams is Fox News political analyst and cohost of The Five. Juan, I think that these are, what we're seeing of these Democratic candidates trying to get their own lane and they all know that Bernie Sanders kind of stepped in it with this thing. Seventy-five percent of voters in one poll I saw said that they do not support felon's voting at all.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST & POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. The key here is that there is a constitutional right to vote and Sanders understands that emotionally most Americans can't tolerate the idea that you are going to let a terrorist vote.

I mean, I think there is a separate conversation about what happens to people once they get out of jail and try to --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, absolutely.

WILLIAMS: -- reintroduce them to the society but in jail, as you say, the polls just don't support that. But remember, Martha, Bernie Sanders boroughs as they are called, right, they like the idea that he is an out- of-the-box guy who will push the limits, and I think it has a separate appeal in the Democratic primary, the people who say, you know what, Bernie is always challenging the establishment, he is going to stand out.

And what you see Booker is saying there is a bigger issue here that Bernie may be touching on, and as may be intentional, which is, mass incarceration, and especially the idea that you have so many African- Americans and Hispanics, disproportionately in the prison population.

Right now, I think for black men, it's six times more likely they are going to be put in jail than white men, about two times for Latino men. And remember, America has more than two million people in jail. We have the largest jail and prison population in the world.

MACCALLUM: Well, those numbers have been going down. I want to talk to you quickly about the economy. You wrote a piece, the reality of the Trump economy. And no doubt when Joe Biden steps on the stage, he is also going to tell people that things are not going as well as some of them think they are.

WILLIAMS: Well, it's interesting because last week, we had just terrific GDP numbers for the Trump economy.

MACCALLUM: Fantastic.

WILLIAMS: Right. But again, how does it feel to me, how does it feel to you? If you are saying it cost more to pay for education for my children, health care costs are up, and you say, gosh, gasoline prices are up and you say stagnant wages, it's tough.

MACCALLUM: I got to differ with you. Let's look at this Gallup poll. Fifty-six percent of people in America feel positive about their finances. Households that benefited from the Trump tax cuts who make between $50,000 and a $100,000 are in the high 80 percent of people who got -- who got money back.

And you have business stimulation that is helping people who haven't been in the workforce forever coming back in. I think it's a very tough argument to make that people aren't feeling better.

WILLIAMS: No, I think if you watch what the Democrats are doing, you'll see that it's an argument about income inequality that has tremendous traction right now. I think Jamie Dimon of Goldman Sachs said the other day, 40 percent of the American population makes $15 an hour or less.

And of course, you know the famous statistic about $400 emergency expense, about half the population said we can't afford it without borrowing or using credit card debt. That indicates there is pressure on the middle class in this country, and when we think about education, health care --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: But more of them have jobs now than --

WILLIAMS: True.

MACCALLUM: I mean, the last two years have been --

WILLIAMS: But they are not paying --

MACCALLUM: -- really good for getting good people out of the unemployment line and back to work.

WILLIAMS: But again, if you are trying to support a family, Martha, and you are making $15 an hour, you understand --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well wages are growing up.

WILLIAMS: Well, I hope -- no.

MACCALLUM: Wages are going since the last two years.

WILLIAMS: Well, they are still relatively stagnant. And that's the problem. I think lots of people are saying, hey, how come the tax cut, which was supposed to be the centerpiece of the Trump economy, how come, you know, and 80 plus percent will go to the top 1 percent over time.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, that's the argument. The truth is in the way people vote.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MACCALLUM: And how they're actually really feeling out there. Juan, thank you.

WILLIAMS: Very important.

MACCALLUM: Always good to see you.

WILLIAMS: Nice to see you.

MACCALLUM: Still ahead tonight, Missouri Senator Josh Hawley and his questions for Attorney General William Barr tomorrow at the hearing. As we wait for Joe Biden to take the stage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: We are awaiting Joe Biden in Iowa.

And in the meantime, and the controversial Netflix series, "13 Reasons Why," hugely popular, a high school girl commit suicide and leaves behind a recorded tape for those that she claims contributed to her death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's me, life end in stereo. No return engagements, no encore. And this time, absolutely no requests. Get a snack, settle in, because I'm about to tell you the story of my life, more specifically, why my life ended. And if you are listening to this tape, you are one of the reasons why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: This is just unreal. And now right before the release of the third season, a disturbing study shows that suicide rates among those aged 10 to 17 rose almost 30 percent in the months following the 2017 debut of the show.

Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast newsroom with the back story here tonight. Hi, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. We are not pointing fingers at Netflix or "13 Reasons Why," because so far there is no proof of any suicide connection but numbers are certainly concerning.

"Thirteen Reasons Why" debuted in March of 2017. In April of 2017, 190 children between the ages of 10 and 17 took their own lives. So, the April 2017 suicide rate was higher than the previous 19 April's. And it was almost 30 percent higher than at any time in the previous five years.

It's interesting that the increase of national suicides was primarily young boys but the protagonist, as you mentioned in the show who committed suicide, was a 17-year-old girl. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm about to tell you the story of my life, more specifically, why my life ended.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If one thing had gone differently somewhere along the line, maybe none of this would have happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People were starting to talk. I had to do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: Yes. A co-author of the study, Lisa Horowitz said, quote, "Females of all ages are three times more likely to attempt suicide but males are four times more likely to complete it."

We should note the National Institutes of Health supported the study but it was actually conducted at hospitals and universities across the country.

Netflix told Fox News, quoting, "We've just have seen the study and are looking into the research, which conflicts with last week's study from the University of Pennsylvania."

In that study, it found that students who watched the entire season, the second season of "13 Reasons Why," were less likely to purposely injure themselves or seriously considered suicide. But both studies emphasize the influence the media has on young people and the responsibility that outlets should bear.

Of course, my teenage daughters both watched the show as do many of their friends, some like it, some don't, but it has certainly been the topic of many conversations. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Yes, it really has. Trace, thank you very much. Here now, Tim Winter, president of the Parents Television Council. Tim, what's your reaction to the study?

TIM WINTER, PRESIDENT, PARENTS TELEVISION COUNCIL: Well, this is just the latest demonstration of something that Netflix has been aware of now for a couple of years. Right after the show premiered, the search term on Google for how do I kill myself went up 26 percent.

Now what we are seeing a year or two later is that many of those children are acting on that Google search term. You have a television show, "13 Reasons Why," that is targeted at teenagers, yet romanticize his teen suicide, and what are we to expect that what we are starting to see?

One thing to point out, though, is the University of Pennsylvania report, research report that just came out focused on adults ages 18 to 29. This report from NIH is focused on children ages 10 to 17. I think there is a demonstration there of the cognitive development and the ability, the impact on the media of a younger child versus an adult.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, you know, before I saw the study, I thought that this show was very disturbing. And it was hugely -- is hugely popular with middle school students, high school students, all across this country. It's a huge hit. But there is not necessarily a link. I mean, this research does not necessarily show that there is a direct link, does that?

WINTER: Well, there is not a conclusory proof that there is causation. There certainly is a link. And any other product in the stream of commerce, think of any other product in the stream of commerce in this country that was linked to children killing themselves, it will be pulled off the shelves until you could make sure it wasn't true.

Why do we have to sit here and wait until we find out well it is true? How many more children have to die because of this? A responsible, publicly traded corporation would step up, be responsible, and take this off the air --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

WINTER: -- at least until they could get more solid research to make sure that it was not harmful. There is lots of --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Well, let me ask you this, the third season is coming outcome what do you tell parents at your council to say to their kids about this program?

WINTER: There has never been a more difficult time being a parent in terms of monitoring the media consumption for your children.

MACCALLUM: That's for sure.

WINTER: You have pads and phones and computers and smart TVs and you name it, it's everywhere, an ubiquitous media. And you know, parents have to be involved. And so, an informed parent is the best line of defense, but at some point in time, we have a corporation that is profiting, this is literally blood money now. And at some point in time, this corporation had to step up and take accountability for its contribution to this very terrible equation.

MACCALLUM: We hope they will come here and talk to us about it. Tim Winter, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.

WINTER: My pleasure.

MACCALLUM: So, will lawmakers press Attorney General William Barr on how - - on his vow to investigate the origins of the Russia probe? Senate Judiciary Committee member Josh Hawley will be doing some of that questioning live tomorrow morning. He is here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So, this new development breaking right now, the Washington Post is reporting that Special Counsel Robert Mueller wrote a letter to Attorney General William Barr complaining about the summary of the special counsel's investigation.

According to this report that just came out from the Post, the letter said in part, quote, "The summary letter the Department sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24th did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance of this office's work on conclusion.

There is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose for which the Department appointed the special counsel, to ensure full public confidence in the outcome of the investigation."

So, it will play front and center tomorrow when the attorney general appears in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: My next guest is a member of that committee; Missouri Senator Josh Hawley joins me now. Senator, good to see you. Again, thank you very much for being here tonight.

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY, R-MO: Thanks for having me.

MACCALLUM: You know, first question is about the other side of the building there and the House Judiciary Committee who wants to have staffers on the judiciary committee do the questioning of William Barr, the attorney general has said that that issue is off the table. That is not going to happen. What do you think about the request?

HAWLEY: It all sounds bizarre to me, Martha, and frankly, it sounds like more grandstanding. Look, the Democrats can't come to grips with the fact that the Mueller report found that there was no collusion, there was no conspiracy, there was no obstruction.

What we should be focused on here is what's been going on in our government, what's been going on at the highest levels of the FBI. That is where the focus needs to be and that's what I look forward to asking the attorney general about tomorrow.

MACCALLUM: You know, Senate Judiciary Chairman, Senator Lindsey Graham basically sounds like it is going to be a fairly quick process tomorrow. He said we're going to do one round and then potentially a second round of questioning. You know, what's the direction that you all are going in tomorrow?

HAWLEY: What I want to know is, what led to the president of the United States, the duly elected leader of the country, having a counterintelligence investigation opened against him by the FBI? Treated like a spy by the FBI.

I mean, based on what we have heard from news reports, this is because FBI leadership didn't like his policy positions on Russia, didn't like his campaign. I mean, this is extraordinary.

Here's my concern, Martha, we had a time in this country when the FBI tried to run the country, tried to tell elected leaders what to do. I don't want to go back to that time in our history. We need to make sure that we never do.

MACCALLUM: I want to play a sound bite from the last time that the attorney general testified and this got quite a bit of attention when he said it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, I think spying did occur.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let me --

BARR: The question is whether it was predicated, adequately predicated. I'm not suggesting it wasn't adequately predicated but I need to explore that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: There were a lot of dropping draws in that moment. Did that surprise you that he said it and the way he said it?

HAWLEY: It did. What surprised me even more, Martha, as he went on to say that we may be talking about not just the FBI but about other agencies and the government as well. I mean, this is extraordinary. I have never heard of an example in American history when a presidential campaign has been spied on by agencies from our own government.

When a presidential candidate and then elected president has been treated like a spy by agencies of our own government. We need answers on what exactly is going on at the FBI and may be in other agencies and that's what I hope to get tomorrow.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And so, what are you going to ask Bill Barr specifically about that tomorrow? What do you want to know about how that process is going?

HAWLEY: I want to know what he is learned so far about how this counterspy, counterintelligence investigation of President Trump got launched. Who was responsible for it, why did the FBI leadership tried to take steps to insulate that investigation from discovery and political oversight? Who's responsible for it?

So, I want answers to these things and I also want to ask him if we need a special counsel. I think that we do. The FBI -- Martha, I've been pressing the FBI for answers on this for months now. They have been stonewalling me. If they are going to stonewall and obstruct a special counsel should look into this.

MACCALLUM: You know, I mean, that's a tough question for the attorney general. Obviously, that, you know, it falls under his domain. You know, I guess the question is, you will be pressing him, I would imagine, on how, you know, objective that whole process can be when it's part of the Department of Justice, the FBI.

HAWLEY: You know, I'm encouraged that he had set up a task force. He said that he would, that he is going to press forward on this. I think he is asking the right questions. Tomorrow is a chance to see if he's gotten any answers. And it may be, Martha, that he needs help in getting answers. It may be that the FBI needs the consequence of a special counsel to really come to terms with their own behavior and so the American public can get answers.

MACCALLUM: Well, we're going to be watching closely. I got one more question for you, because I know that you are very interested in the issues of privacy and social media.

Mark Zuckerberg made some big statements today. The one that really caught my eye was that he said the future is private. The future on social media, where Facebook is concerned, is going to be private, which is the absolute antithesis of what we have all heard for the past decade about social media, that privacy is gone, that it's over.

HAWLEY: My question is, where has Mark Zuckerberg been for the last few years? I mean, the American people have wanted privacy, have been expecting privacy for years. Facebook has basically admitting that they have done anything but.

Look, they've been scooping up our private personal information, they've been monetizing that, making big profits on it. So, in terms of their privacy push, I'll believe it when they see it, when I see it. But what we need to do now is get answers from Facebook. We need to know what information are you collecting on consumers, what are you doing with it, and why are you discriminating against conservatives on your platform?

MACCALLUM: Well, you called it a creepy company, Facebook, so we'll see where that's going.

HAWLEY: Yes.

MACCALLUM: We'll talk to you more about that next time, Senator. Thank you very much. We'll see you tomorrow, watching everything.

HAWLEY: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: All right. Take care.

HAWLEY: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACCALLUM: You bet. So, we take that interview right before the show. Before that Barr news broke. More of “The Story” is up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Here's the latest on this breaking news right now. A spokesperson for Robert Mueller's telling Politico we declined to comment on the new report from "The Washington Post" that claims that Mueller wrote a letter to the DOJ complaining about Barr's summary. More on that tomorrow. Have a good night everybody. Tucker is up next.

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