Finding unity in America amid COVID-19 pandemic and deepening political divisions

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Finding unity in America amid COVID-19 pandemic and deepening political divisions

Americans used to unite in times of crisis; will 2020 prove to be different? Martha MacCallum gets insight from Juan Williams, Susan Eisenhower and Trey Gowdy.

This is a rush transcript from "The Ingraham Angle," July 30, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody, I'm Martha MacCallum in New York and this is "The Story." Great crises in the past have united our country. In World War II, the nation's most selfless generation gave up literally everything. To cross the oceans and fight for freedom against tyranny.

After 9/11, we saw our flag and united with tears streaming down our faces while standing strong in the face of the attack, bonded in grief and swearing in the words of President Bush that the people who knock the buildings down will hear from all of us.

But today, there is a resistance to pulling together. The nation we are told is deeply divided so under attack by the virus as are so many nations right now. Why is the enemy each other? Or is it? Perhaps, we are still actually more united then we realize. Perhaps we are not small groups burning buildings and tearing down fences nor are we Derek or others who like who don't represent our values.

Let's go and take a look at some of the recent polls. A Gallup poll of adults in the country shows that just 15 percent support abolishing police and this one from Reuters shows only 18 percent strongly support defunding them. There are some supports in the other groups as well.

And as monuments and statues continue to be targeted, 73 percent of Americans say that Washington and Jefferson Memorial should absolutely stay up. That's same point shows that a strong majority of Americans see our nation's founders as heroes not villains.

Another fierce battle in this country right now whether to go back to the clash on the September as students have done through every major crisis since our inception and it turns out that that is still what most people want. According to Fox News polling only 25 percent of Americans feel that school should be fully remote in September.

And a national AP poll shows 68 percent want schools open in September with adjustment for safety. In this regard there is also agreement in the middle of the COVID-19 virus as the numbers rise in new states only 20 percent of Americans say they are satisfied with the way things are going in the United States according to Gallup and who complain them in the current moment.

So on the day of John Lewis's funeral he left this message to the nation not about division, but about what unites us as people. Saying this as he left the world with more hope about the next chapter.

"Millions of people motivated simply by human compassion lay down the burdens of division around the country and the world as you set aside race, class, age, language and nationality to demand respect for human dignity".

So with 95 days to go, America gets ready to choose its leader for the next four years, the language of politics continues to be harsh. What drive us most Americans are day to day are more simple fairness, justice and education.

Tonight, we're joined by Former Congressman and Fox News Contributor Trey Gowdy, Susan Eisenhower CEO of the Eisenhower Group and Grand Daughter of President Dwight Eisenhower she is also the author of the new book "How Ike Led" and Juan Williams Fox News Analyst and Co-Host of the Five. Good to have all of you with us tonight.

So Juan let me start with you when you peel back some of these numbers and you dig into these polls, we all get sort of I think inundated with this message that we are so far apart and yet there are a lot of indicators that on a lot of big issues we are close together.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I could not agree more and I think sometimes we get locked in our echo chambers and on that score I don't think social media helps us, I think that in fact, we get locked into small groups of people who are of likeminded and confirm pre-existing opinions, Martha.

So that doesn't help us to see how much we do have in common as Americans? I think also, it's demographic and we have a large cohort of now older Americans over 65 and we have a large cohort who is even under 18. About 35 under, those are the two biggest groups now in American society and they are very different in terms of makeup.

So that also can contribute to people pointing fingers and then I would add I think at the moment when I look to Washington and when I look to the President I think he practices politics, based politics he plays to is base it's not about reaching out to the middle or certainly not across the aisle.

MACCALLUM: Well, you look at both sides I think of the political spectrum Susan and you see real extremes in the language that is used on both sides. On one side you've got Joe Biden saying that if he is elected, he would be likely the most progressive President in history and then you've got President Trump who is speaking in a way that President Trump speaks.

So, I wonder, your grandfather talked about the middle way and that doesn't seem to exist, at least in the rhetoric. Although I do think it exists in human beings.

SUSAN EISENHOWER, CEO, THE EISENHOWER GROUP: I think you're absolutely right and I thought those polling figures by the way were fastening and Juan's point about social media is really spot on but I think there is another problem here too that the only voices really out there are the extreme voices.

The large majority of Americans who agree on the goals could probably be brought into the debate to a much further extent. I think that big middle is wondering what is the plan and how are we going to meet these goals and I think both sides have probably not in any way satisfied that group.

MACCALLUM: Yes, Trey, look at what's going on a Capitol Hill right now and you've got both sides dug in on election mode. And I think most people look at this situation and say well, you know you've got more than 30 million people at work in the country and some of the businesses that they work for are just not there anymore.

So even when their best intentions they're not going to be able to go back to a job because it disappeared and they listen to what they're hearing from politicians and I think many of the things - let me out there and I can figure out a quick a compromise on this thing and it's not that hard to give people little bit to get through the next month but not something that's not - that has no ending.

TREY GOWDY, FORMER CHAIRMAN, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: Yes, I think here's the challenge, most of the races this November Martha will not be competitive. Because of the redistricting so if you're the nominee you're going to win in the overwhelming majority in the House District 41 out of 50, 41 out of 50 states have either two Republican Senators or two Democrat Senators.

So I do think people are willing to compromise and find commonality but not in the politics and in part of that is redistricting and part of that is the fact that politics in fact it's just government now but it is also sporting events and you mentioned when to start school whether or not to have in person school it's award shows. I mean, politics is so divisive but yet it is everywhere.

MACCALLUM: Susan, when I look at these decisions about school and sports and things and I think about Eisenhower, I think that he would be probably saying okay, we need to get back to work and we need to focus on what - you know there is a task at hand we can do this safely.

Let's roll up our sleeves and come on, America, you're stronger than this. Let's do the things that make us American. And I wonder where that sort of rational voice is right now. It seems like a lot of Americans are very, very frightened.

And I understand that but I also don't know where that voices that I think you know that Ike would be saying right now.

EISENHOWER: But we really need leadership to leaves the entire country and this is one of the big changes between decades ago and now, these political parties to Trey's point are really only speaking to their base. This is tragic because actually, our leaders need to be leading the country.

I think Martha, it's serious really is a national security issue and it is tremendously important for us to find the language, the methods and the means to unify this country as a really almost a top priority.

MACCALLUM: You know I also think about those prior crises and the enemy was clear it was overseas in the 9/11 attack is clear. You look at World War II, very clear villains in those situations as well. Juan, I just wonder, when you look at China for example and here's a poll - Pew Poll that was done a few months back.

Do you think China is a major threat, minor threat or not a threat to the United States? If you combine major and minor you've got 91 percent of Americans who think that this is a big threat that faces us.

And I wonder if historians will look back at this moment when we are so consumed with the virus and say that oh, that was a moment when a lot of things were happening and the game was changing when it came to China and we took our eye off the ball.

WILLIAMS: Well, that's possible and in fact I think we are under attack by a lot of players like China and Russia. They play on divisions and they exacerbate this division within American society to gain advantage over us. And you know I think just a paid out power the fact that we are the world's greatest power economically and militarily.

But if we are divided, then essentially, we stop being players. So, to me, I like that poll that you had at the end there Martha where you're talking about the number of Americans who think you know things are not going in the right direction. There's another point where across the aisle people agree.

It's just troubling to me that with more people don't say hey, let's talk. Let's have conversation. I don't agree with you, but I would like to hear what you are saying. I think compromise is now been put down by a lot of people and compromise used to be the art of politics. What's wrong with compromise?

MACCALLUM: I mean, look at some of these polls Trey and you see that the reason for division 64 percent say that President Trump is the reason for division. In terms of helping or hurting efforts on Coronavirus 62 percent say the President is hurting those efforts.

I watched today he was at the Red Cross talking with Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx and they were talking about a nationwide push. There are 2 million people in this country who have recovered from COVID to collect plasma that can be used for treatment.

It was a tone that I think that we have seen over the past ten days or so that signals that I think the President is trying to change the way that he is perceived in this. Of course, he would say that he's done a fantastic job on all of this and we know that we hear them say that all the time. But with regard to the tone recently, do you think it's changing?

GOWDY: I hope so. I think primarily female voters care very much what you believe but they also - you have to express yourself in a different way. That's not just true for President Trump, that's true for all Republicans. We do okay on policy until you tell the voter who is policy it is.

So, we have communications and a brand issue one razor point Martha that another poll, two-thirds of all Democrats doesn't have a single Republican friend. Two-thirds of all Republicans don't have a single Democrat friend. So, if you're trying to figure out how--

MACCALLUM: It seems it used to be like that in a country.

GOWDY: --Barack Obama.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, that's the development.

GOWDY: But if you're trying to figure out how Barack Obama won twice? If you don't have a Democrat to ask how are you ever going to figure out and the same for Trump? If you're trying to figure out how Donald Trump won you can't ask the Philosophy Department of Princeton you've got to ask someone who voted for him.

MACCALLUM: You know, I was reading another piece this morning that talked about - this writer was basically saying he thinks that President Trump after all will win again. And that it will be because he is determined to be tough on China that he wants to have conservative judges.

And that even though there are a lot of people who don't like his style as he would say when you peel back. And you look at regulation and cutting taxes and being tough on China and all of that, that he is going to check their boxes in the end regardless of what the poll's look like right now and what you think?

EISENHOWER: Well, I think the tragedy is that this Coronavirus and now the huge drop in the economy and the unemployment and everything else came during an election year. Because truthfully, this is a really serious matter and it's very hard to look a side when the tone in the country is as bad as it is.

There are a lot of people hurting out there and I would just say on the point about getting to know Democrats or Republicans, frankly, it is so much more interesting to engage people in different views. It's kind of boring to hang out with the same people all the time.

So, I think there is really a challenge that we can make and I'm up here at the moment in Maine and I can tell you this. These communities up here had been out supporting their neighbors and talking about all the things were just talking about here. It's a great state. But they are encouraged to do so, so again this has to come from the top and it isn't just image it is substance too.

MACCALLUM: Juan, you hang out with people who think differently from you every day. We all watch it.

WILLIAMS: I even get haircutting tips from Trey Gowdy and I pay attention to Trey's haircuts.

GOWDY: Can I say something nice about Juan?

MACCALLUM: Yes, please.

GOWDY: And there is no reason any of your viewers would know this, but Juan Williams sent a book to a young lawyer in South Carolina. He would not let her pay for and he wrote a nicest note to her. He didn't ask whether she was a Republican. He didn't ask anything she happens to be a conservative woman of color, but he has a friend for life.

And I do think most people are willing to engage in those acts of kindness. Most of us are like that it's just what we see is not that.

MACCALLUM: You know, and I think it does go back to - I think people love to think that there isn't a very strong core in this country that agrees on a lot of things. Because it benefits politicians and it benefits the media to keep telling everybody that we all hate each other and that we are all so divided.

I think that there are lessons in some of these numbers and in all that we agree on that may be sort of informative as we go forward. I don't know what is going to happen as we head into this election season or even if it is going to happen on November 3rd at this point?

But I think all of you being here tonight. Juan Williams, Susan Eisenhower and Trey Gowdy great group, thanks for talking with us.

GOWDY: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: My pleasure.

MACCALLUM: So coming up, bombshell report on the NBA's business in China. The league is accused of teaming up with the Chinese government to groom young players some of whom at this facility were abused, where housed in poor conditions and were deprived of education, where is the NBA on this and why have they not been ringing the alarm bells, Senator Tom Cotton up next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: A bombshell new report by ESPN alleges that NBA training facilities in China were witness to abuse of Chinese players by their coaches. League officials heard complaints from American coaches that Chinese coaches at the facility were physically abusing young players and denying them the education that they were promised.

One employee described the situation as "World War II Germany". Another former coach described watching a Chinese coach fire a ball into young players face at point-blank range and then kick him in the gut. Others said they were basically working for the Chinese government.

So far no comment from Lebron James one of the most unspoken athletes on social justice issues and that has not gone unnoticed on social media where people are asking what his thoughts are?

But the NBA which has been scrambling to justify their deep business alliances in China where they make upwards to $500 million a year now says that it is reevaluating and considering other opportunities for the academy program as typical forward social justice pastor appears to fall short where China is involved.

Joining me now, Senator Tom Cotton a member of the Armed Services Committee and Intelligence Committee, good to have you with us, Senator and thank you for being here today.

SEN. TOM COTTON, R-ARK.: Thank you Martha.

MACCALLUM: This is an uncomfortable story that ESPN has put out there for the NBA, especially given their stance on other credible issues of social justice in this country.

COTTON: It is, Martha. It's a very disturbing report as one of the employees said, these were basically sweatshops for young Chinese kids and the NBA employees saw the worst kinds of child abuse and as you referenced, they even had one of these camps in Northwestern China where China is running reeducation gulags for religious minorities and they likened it to Nazi Germany in World War II.

I understand that NBA has deep financial ties to China, but you have to ask at some point, what's wrong with the NBA? I mean, how many crimes will they turn a blind eye to whether it is child abuse or ethnic cleansing or cracking down on Hong Kong?

I mean, for those of us who grew up watching the epic battles of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and then watch them put on the red, white, and blue for the dream team in 1992. The NBA stands right now is very disappointing.

MACCALLUM: When you think about a communist society in athletics I think about the Soviet Union, the issues that they had with duping and pushing athletes hard. I think about the East German in the Olympics when I was growing up I mean it is not that surprising that this is a culture that is connected between athletics and a communist regime that, you know, wants results more than anything else. So should this be a big surprise?

COTTON: Martha, the Chinese people love the NBA and that's one of the reasons why it's so disappointing to see the NBA and its stars like Lebron James or Steve Kerr not take a stronger stance. The NBA is probably a unique among American businesses and the leverage it has over the Chinese Communist Party.

They are not like our farmers or oil producers whose products can be bought from other countries. There's only one NBA and hundreds of millions of Chinese are rabid fans. The NBA could take a strong stance here and called the Chinese Communist Party's bluff.

And ask them to stop these horrific practices yet unfortunately too many of its stars and executives seem to be more concerned about making a few more bucks in a communist country then standing up for a basic human liberty and dignity.

MACCALLUM: Yes, it is a great point because the whole sort of Chinese experiment with opening up China under Nixon was that if you - the more light that you shine into a situation, and you sort of bring that country into economics deals and you shine a light into the practices of the country is carrying out that it makes it more difficult for them to do things along these lines.

And that it makes the people there want a more democratic government. It appears that that is an experiment to that's more and more looking like it did not work.

COTTON: Unfortunately, that is the case you know we were sold on engagement for 20 or 30 years from politicians in both parties that if we just opened up to China and we sent our factories and sent our jobs there. If we didn't look at all their misdeeds in terms of stealing our intellectual property or mistreating the companies that were working there mistreating their own people as well that capitalism would ultimately change China.

Unfortunately, China is changing capitalism and not only in China as we see from the NBA's behavior - the NBA portrays itself as the most politically and socially progressive of our professional sports leagues and you can wear slogans on your jerseys that are approved by the NBA but you can't wear free Hong Kong. Just imagine if the NBA had locked arms behind the Houston General Manager last fall that stood up for Hong Kong.

MACCALLUM: Absolutely, the gall to tweet "Free Hong Kong" and the wrath was turned on him like we have not seen. This is likely - I think China is likely to be the largest issue. When we get past COVID and I believe we will eventually, I think that the United States/China relationship is going to be one of the biggest issues of whoever is President for the next four years. Do you agree?

COTTON: I agree absolutely, Martha. Not only did China unleash this plague on the world but they have been taking our jobs and our factories for decades. They had been intimidating our companies and transferring technology or just stealing it when they can't. They've got spies running all around our campuses and our elite laboratories and businesses. We have to take a stand against China.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I think the game is changing and you've been on this for a very long time. Senator Tom Cotton, good to see you. Thank you very much.

COTTON: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So teachers you know had threatened that they would go on strike if they were forced to return to the classroom and the safety conditions that they wanted were not met. But now there is also talk that some say they might boycott online teaching as well unless their demands are met, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Midway through summer now. As the school year gets closer, teachers unions now at state capital threatening to strike if their demands are not met. Now some say that they also want a limit to the obligations that they would have to fulfill even if they are online teaching in terms of limiting the hours that they would have to be online.

Some critics see teachers unions trying to have it both ways, reluctant to return to classrooms, but also resistant in some districts to providing a full day of remote schools via tools like live video, interactive, online instruction that many parents -- this is from the New York Times -- say that their children need after they watched what happened last spring when some of those lessons were just sort of, you know, hit and play.

Joining me now, Rachel Campos-Duffy, mother to nine children. She has a virtual schoolhouse essentially at home, Fox News contributor she is, and Richard Goodstein, former advisor to Bill and Hillary Clinton's presidential campaigns and a Democratic strategist. Great to have both of you with us. Thank you for being here.

RICHARD GOODSTEIN, FMR. ADVISER, CLINTON CAMPAIGNS: I'm father of a teacher, just to let you know. Yes.

MACCALLUM: And the daughter of one, and the sister of one.

GOODSTEIN: Good. Good.

MACCALLUM: So, we have lots of -- lots of teachers connection here.

Richard, let me start with you. You know, what do you make of teachers threatening to sue to not go back given what we know about how much learning has already been lost.

GOODSTEIN: Right.

RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean, I can tell you that it was difficult for my children to learn --

(CROSSTALK)

GOODSTEIN: Look --

MACCALLUM: Go ahead.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Sorry.

MACCALLUM: That was to Richard. I'll come right to you after that, Rachel.

GOODSTEIN: Teachers love to teach. They love their students. Kids want to be in school, and parents want them to be in school. But parents, according to the polls, are afraid about sending their kids back to school because they look like classic textbook super-spreader places. Right?

Poor ventilation, they're close together, distancing is hard. Lots of speaking is going on for extended periods of time. And I might add, these teachers and parents watch the news they see somebody like Herman Cain, may he rest in peace, who was well when he went to that Tulsa rally, gets coronavirus two weeks later and now, God, he is gone. They see that and they say I don't want that to be me and you can't really blame them.

MACCALLUM: Well, I agree with you about your sentiments about Herman Cain, may he rest in him peace. It's tragic.

GOODSTEIN: Right.

MACCALLUM: Anyone's lost to this.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Absolutely.

MACCALLUM: But Rachel, one of the things that I think people look at, they say, you know, you can go to Walmart, you can go to a nail salon, you can go to pretty much every place else so why, why not -- why shouldn't you have to go to work if you are being paid, a teachers contract?

CAMPOS-DUFFY: That's right. And those nail salons are innovating which is something our teacher should be doing too. They're putting plexiglass between you and the person doing your nails or the service. We can put plexiglass in front of teacher's desk.

We are Americans, we can make this happen. What it sounds to me is that the teacher's union, which, let's face it is filled with activists who have invested interest in kids not getting back to school because then the economy can't get going because the parents can't go to work.

They are hyping the fear instead of helping find solutions. We know that they are adding more to the demands, it's not just that they're asking for safety measures, now they're saying we're not going back unless you solve gun control, unless you give welfare to illegal immigrants.

There's all kinds of things they're adding to this, the universal healthcare. These are things that don't have anything to do with whether our kids can go back to school. And I might add, our children are four times more likely to be at risk of getting the flu than they are of COVID.

So, the risk is for the teachers, that's the real fear, that's a real concern. We can solve that. We can innovate around that. This sounds like a lot of our children are being used as political pawns and I think it's actually frustrating a lot of Americans especially working-class and poor Americans who are going to have a harder time.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Our poll shows that -- we show at the beginning of the program an A.P. poll and a Fox poll basically shows something like a quarter, 25 percent don't want them to return. Most people do want the kids to return to school with a variety of safety precautions built in here.

Here's Betsy DeVos, she was on with Bill Hemmer earlier today talking about the potential that teachers might start suing the districts that they work for. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETSY DEVOS, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: Parents and children can't be held captive to others fears or agendas. And we have got to get to a point in this country where we are supporting our families and are focused on doing what's right for students. Education is about a child and their future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Richard, you know, the kids that are going to get hurt the most by this, you know, people who have money can get creative, they can send their child to another school. People who are at home who are working, two parents are working, their child can't go to school, they are the ones who are going to be hurt the most by this this fall.

GOODSTEIN: Right.

MACCALLUM: And they already lost a lot of learning last spring. For some of those kids, this is devastating. It's hitting the restart button, for some of them may not -- it may not happen if they are in middle school, if they are in early high school at all.

GOODSTEIN: Yes. The problem is, all these decisions should be science based and not political. We saw what happened when the White House put pressure on those governors, Georgia, Florida, Texas, and Arizona, to open up early and now they're ridden, overtaken by coronavirus. The governor's poll numbers are plummeting as are Donald Trump's in those states.

Look, the fact is we need to have leaders who are speaking or letting the sciences lead the way. Betsy DeVos, bless her heart, said that children were stoppers of coronavirus. South Korea just did a huge study over 50,000 people kids 10 to 19 spread the coronavirus just as fast as adult do. So, they need to --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: So, stay long for how long, Richard? How long are they staying home for, until when?

GOODSTEIN: Well, as long as the science --

MACCALLUM: Until when? I just want to know.

GOODSTEIN: I think as long as the science -- look, had we followed the scientists --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Until there's a vaccine, until there's a --

GOODSTEIN: No. Had we followed the scientists since March we wouldn't be over 150,000 deaths. And --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: There's a lot of scientists who had different opinions. And things keep changing all the time.

GOODSTEIN: No. I'm not talking about witch doctors --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: So, science is, you know, science is important --

GOODSTEIN: I'm not talking witch doctors like Donald Trump seems to listen.

MACCALLUM: I'm talking -- I'm talking -- no, I'm not either. I'm talking real doctors who have very different feelings and the CDC's opinions has changed every couple of months on these things. Rachel, last thought here.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Yes. And in Europe, the schools have opened up and they have not seen an increase in COVID --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: That's true.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: -- with over 36 kids --

(CROSSTALK)

GOODSTEIN: Because they haven't had --

CAMPOS-DUFFY: -- under the age of 1. Wait a minute, Richard. Thirty-six children under the age of 15 have died of COVID. Every year over 500 die of the seasonal flu on average.

Let me say this, if the teacher's unions want to say that they are not essential, OK, give the parents the money and we will find the options that are worthy of being called essential educationally for our children.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: We can do that. But when you have teachers saying not only that they don't want to open, they are saying that I don't even want to appear on video for a full day of work. That's ridiculous.

MACCALLUM: Well, then, they shouldn't be able to have a job if they're not going to show up for work.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMPOS-DUFFY: And by the way, I would just --

GOODSTEIN: Most --

CAMPOS-DUFFY: And by the way, I like the video -- I like the video component --

GOODSTEIN: Listen, hey, Rachel. OK.

MACCALLUM: I got to go.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: -- because we were finally going to see what our teachers were actually teaching in the classroom. That was actually going to be a very positive thing for parents.

MACCALLUM: I got to go. All right, Rachel, Richard, thank you.

GOODSTEIN: Bye, Martha.

MACCALLUM: We'll pick it up next time. Good to see you both.

GOODSTEIN: See you. Bye. Thanks.

MACCALLUM: Coming up next, a Twitter representative tries to explain why it's OK for -- to censor the president while Iran's supreme leader gets a pass.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YLWA PETTERSSON, TWITTER HEAD OF POLICY FOR ISRAEL: Foreign policy, saber- rattling on military economic issues are generally not in violation of our Twitter rules.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calling for genocide is OK, but comment to politics is not?

PETTERSSON: However --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just so we understand. I just want to fine tune the question, calling for genocide on Twitter is OK, but commenting on political situations in certain countries is not OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Greg Gutfeld coming up next on that and his brand-new bestselling self-help book after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Twitter under fire tonight after the company's spokesperson tried to defend the decision to censor President Trump's tweets while at the same time allowing the Iran supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khomeini to call for genocide of the Jewish people. Watch this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARSEN OSTROVSKY, MEMBER, ISRAEL'S PARLIAMENT: You have recently flagging the tweets of President Trump, why have you not flagged the tweets of Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini who has literally called for the genocide of the Islam and Jewish people?

PETTERSSON: Foreign policy, saber-rattling on military economic issues are generally not in violation of our Twitter rules.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calling for genocide is OK? But comment to politics is not?

PETTERSSON: However, if a world leader violates our rules but it is a clear interest in keeping that up on the service, we may place it behind a notice that provides more context.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Well, there you go. Greg Gutfeld, host of the Greg Gutfeld show, co-host of The Five, and author of the new book "The Plus: A Self-Help For People Who Hate Self-Help." You can put me in that category. Greg, thank you for being here this evening.

I just want to put up an example of Twitter safety. This is what they did to Trump's tweet. He tweeted -- this is just one example. There will never be an autonomous zone in Washington, D.C. as long as I'm your president. If they try, they will be met with serious force.

Twitter safety message on that. We've placed a public interest notice on this tweet for violating our policy against abusive behavior specifically the presence of a threat of harm against an identifiable group. So how does that not also apply to the Ayatollah Khomeini's tweets?

GREG GUTFELD, FOX NEWS HOST: It's actually -- it's actually worse than that because what Twitter kind of this whole realm of social justice has done is redefine the idea of harm. So that it's left the physical realm, it's actually even left the kind of like the psychological torture realm into just something that you may or may not agree with.

And so, what happen, what Twitter is doing is that they're insulting everybody who uses their products by saying, you know what, you can't handle this. This could hurt you forever. I will say this. That if genocide -- if advocating genocide is political commentary, then what about a single murder? What about a murderous threat on Twitter?

If I had threatened to murder somebody, is that political commentary because genocide is advocating mass multiple murders. I will add though, I credit Trump and Ayatollah r because at least their names are on the tweets.

The biggest problem with Twitter is that it's the world's biggest bathroom wall.

MACCALLUM: So true.

GUTFELD: And it's the anonymity foments the worst behavior that you can see. I mean, like no tweet ever helps you, Martha. No one ever tweets you and says, Martha, I see smoke coming from your house, it's on fire. It's always, Martha -- it's always, Martha, I don't like your dress.

MACCALLUM: Right. Martha, your house is on fire in another way.

GUTFELD: Why do you keep wearing blue?

MACCALLUM: Exactly.

GUTFELD: Yes. Yes.

MACCALLUM: You know, I just love the look on the --

GUTFELD: So, basically --

MACCALLUM: -- Twitter woman's face because you can just see the panic kind of rising on her face like, OK, I'm just going to read the company's statement really quickly and I'm going to just hope that they move on -- GUTFELD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: -- because it is so hypocritical. Here is the cover of The New York Post. Hypotwits, it says, because they're always, they are just so petty and smart in the headline department over there at the New York Post. Twitter says, Trump inspires harm, but the ayatollah's Jew hate is commentary on political issues.

But you know what everybody could benefit from, Greg, it's just a little bit of self-help, don't you think?

GUTFELD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: And what I love --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Nice transition, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Thank you. Your book is called "The Plus." And I like this piece of sage.

GUTFELD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Because I don't like self-help books, but I like this piece of sage advice, if you aren't getting happier as you're getting older, you're doing it wrong. How long did it take you to figure that out?

GUTFELD: Until I got old. Because I notice that all of the dumb decisions that I've made in my life were when I was young. And as I get older there's this weird thing that we forget about called wisdom because we become a civilization --

MACCALLUM: Yes, nice, nice.

GUTFELD: -- obsessed with glorifying youth. We think -- we spend all of our money on the young, we glorify rock stars and pop stars, but it's actually the people that are watch this show, the people over 30 --

MACCALLUM: Thank God.

GUTFELD: -- who make the world go around, and my hat goes off to them. And some 25-year-olds too. They're not too bad. Right? The older you get, the smarter you get. It's how it works.

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: All right. I'll never tweet while drinking especially if you're, you know, any of the people that we just discussed.

Greg, thank you.

GUTFELD: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Good luck with the book. It looks great.

GUTFELD: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Greg's new book "The Plus." Great to have you on. Come back.

Coming up, we're going to talk about -- we're going to be right back. We're going to get him up from downstairs.

So big day for space exploration, NASA launched the Mars Rover to search for signs of ancient life. The administrator of NASA is here to tell us all about it. It's so exciting and it's happening when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: This is great this morning. The most high-tech rover in NASA history is named Perseverance launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida. Today begins a seven month, 300-million-mile journey to Mars on historic mission venturing into unexplored areas of the red planet, searching for signs of previous life.

Joining me now, NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine. Jim, great to have you back on the program. This is very exciting. Tell us what you're looking for up there and what everybody should know about the potential of this mission.

JIM BRIDENSTINE, ADMINISTRATOR, NASA: Absolutely. So, when we think about the Perseverance Rover this is our first ever mission with an intent to do astrobiology. We are in fact looking for ancient life on Mars and we're doing it in a location where we know three billion years ago there used to be a river and a big lake bed in a crater. The crater is about the size of lake Tahoe, for example, and yes, we're looking for signs of ancient life but we're doing two other things that I think are also stunning.

Number one, we're going to fly a helicopter on Mars for the first time in human history and we're going to prove that we can turn the carbon dioxide atmosphere of Mars into, no kidding, oxygen for life support, air to breathe.

President Trump has given us agenda. Our agenda is to take humans to Mars and to put an American flag on Mars. And in order to do that we have to be able to breathe. So, we're turning the carbon dioxide atmosphere of Mars into oxygen.

MACCALLUM: So, who's going to do -- like how does that work? You know, how do you do that experiment up there?

BRIDENSTINE; Well, it's robotic, it's all, in fact, autonomous. And of course, the entire rover is robotic. So, we send it signals. Those signals get downloaded. The computer then autonomously has the robot do various things but as far as finding life, we use something called spectroscopy.

We're going to be sending light signals into the soil, the sediment and then when that light reflects back, some of it gets reflected, some of it gets absorbed and based on what gets reflected we're able to tell what the chemical composition of the soil is. And based upon that chemical composition we'll be able to determine whether or not there was a past life there.

MACCALLUM: It's amazing.

BRIDENSTINE: Then we cast -- we're going to cast samples and then in the future bring those samples home here to Earth.

MACCALLUM: I remember an Oval Office meeting that you were in and President Trump was there and the discussion should we go to -- should we go back to the moon, should we got to Mars, the president said something like, yes, we want to do both but we definitely want to go to Mars. And you're nodding like, OK. And now it's happening, right?

BRIDENSTINE: Absolutely. We are going to Mars. But when we send humans the best place to prove how to live and work on another world for long periods of time is the moon. Apollo 13 taught us that things can go wrong at the moon and you can still make it home safely.

MACCALLUM: Right.

BRIDENSTINE: If something like that were to happen to Mars, it's like you said at the beginning, it's a seven-month journey there. It's a seven-month journey home. And by the way, once you're there, Mars and Earth are on opposite sides of the sun, so you have to be on Mars for 26 months.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

BRIDENSTINE: We don't want to take risk for the first time at that magnitude at Mars. We prove it out at the moon and then we go to Mars.

MACCALLUM: So, it comes back February of 2021 and it's been called seven minutes of terror for the landing. Quickly, Jim, why, why is it called that?

BRIDENSTINE: So, first of all, it's traveling right now at 25,000 miles per hour towards the red planet, it's got to slow down to a dead stop on the surface of the red planet. So, we have to do some retro firing of the rockets then we have to use the atmosphere of Mars with a heat shield to ultimately arrow break, if you will, then we have supersonic parachutes.

We have some more rockets as it descends to the surface of Mars and then a sky crane lowers it. It's all autonomous, it's very difficult, the atmosphere of Mars is very thin, it's 1/100th of the atmosphere of earth.

But look, we can do it. This is the United States of America. President Trump has given us agenda --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Pretty exciting.

BRIDENSTINE: -- and we are delivering. Yes.

MACCALLUM: It's very exciting to hear so much enthusiasm in the space program. Again, a lot of competition out there. Good luck to you. We hope that it goes fantastically.

BRIDENSTINE: Thank you so much.

MACCALLUM: Thank you, Jim.

Quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: Tonight's quote of the night from civil rights leader John Lewis who wrote an editorial for the New York Times that was published posthumously today.

He said, in my life I have done all I can to demonstrate the way of peace, the way of love and nonviolence is the more excellent way. Now it's your time to let freedom ring. Let the spirit of peace and power and of everlasting love be your guide.

Rest in peace, John Lewis.

That is the story of Thursday, July 30th, 2020. Tomorrow night.

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