Ferguson 'hands up, don't shoot!' rallying cry questioned
Review of eyewitness accounts in grand jury documents suggests narrative is inaccurate
This is a rush transcript from "The Five," November 28, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
ANDREA TANTAROS, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Andrea Tantaros along with Juan Williams, David Webb, Jedediah Bila and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five." Since the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson on August 9, one chant has created a narrative that he dominated the faithful encounter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Don't shoot.
CROWD: Hands up.
CROWD: Don't shoot.
CROWD: Hands up.
CROWD: Don't shoot.
CROWD: Hands up.
CROWD: Don't shoot.
CROWD: Hands up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TANTAROS: Hands up don't shoot, something Officer Darren Wilson said never happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE STEPHANOPOULUS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Some of the eyewitnesses have said, when at that moment he turned around, he turned around and put his hands up.
DARREN WILSON, POLICE OFFICER WHO KILLED MICHAEL BROWN: That would be incorrect, incorrect.
STEPHANOPOULUS: No way?
WILSON: No way.
STEPHANOPOULUS: So, you say he starts to run, as he starts to come toward you.
WILSON: Uh-huh.
STEPHANOPOULUS: And?
WILSON: That time, I gave myself another mental checkup. You know, can I shoot this guy? You know. Can -- legally can I? And the question I answer myself was -- I have to, if I don't, he will kill me if he gets to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP) TANTAROS: We'll review of the grand jury documents by the Associated Press with seems to back up Officer Wilson. They said that witness testimony doesn't conclusively back up that now, famous rallying cry. So, how did it come to define the encounter and spur global response? All right David, you returned to Ferguson just to couple of days ago. But I know you've read over this evidence that the grand jury presented. The witness testimony was seemingly all over the place, which created reasonable doubt and reasonable doubt is not enough for a conviction.
DAVID WEBB, GUEST CO-HOST: It starts with a lie. It is a lie. Hands up don't shoot is a lie perpetuated by Michael Brown's accomplice in the robbery, Dorian Johnson. So let's call it what it is, all of this hands up don't shoot, needs to go away and have nothing to do with this. We now have the evidence from the grand jury, we have the witnesses who changed their statements, we have the testimony of witnesses and it's been turned from. What was an incident between two people, there was a beyond -- there was a bolo for them. The officer spotted the cigarillos, he went out, he saw someone they were walking down in the middle of the street. That incident led to an encounter, led to a violent encounter between the officers, led to a lie, all of this is cooked up -- hands up don't shoot because of a lie. Michael Brown was not the victim the original police report -- e- police report is only one, says, victim Officer Darren Wilson and suspect, Michael Brown.
TANTAROS: Juan, hands up don't shoot, you see people doing this at this protest all over the country and major cities. And David says though, not enough evidence to support that that happened and Officer Wilson said that never happened.
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Not enough evidence to support and it didn't happen, all of you see in the transcripts, Andrea, is that, people have varying accounts of where his hands were, some people say his hands were at chest level, some people say at his stomach level, some say at his side, we don't know about what he might have said, no one can -- no one was there except for the other man, that David described as his accomplice, who, who started this, who said that he said -- you know, don't shoot, we don't know. And so.
WEBB: But, but he contradicted himself in an interview what they go on...
WILLIAMS: No, no.
WEBB: He contradicts himself and then he disappeared.
WILLIAMS: No.
WEBB: Where is Dorian Johnson?
WILLIAMS: I don't where he is. I can -- I imagine that everybody, where's Darren Wilson? I mean, everybody in this thing is -- I think injured and hurt. But I will say, that I think it speaks to a larger subject here, which is, I don't think that there was any way that you can say that Officer Wilson was directly pursuing this guy because of the robbery, the kid apparently was thuggish and wrong handed, and there had been an announcement, that you know somebody had stolen $40 worth of cigars. But is that a reason to kill a kid?
(CROSSTALK)
TANTAROS: Well, because of the evidence -- so, David didn't, didn't it show that he was reaching into the police car as well.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
WEBB: He was, he was, he was fighting with him inside the police car, and by the way Juan, we got to stop drawing the line of -- what led to the killing. The stealing of the cigarillos, the incident between them doesn't necessary to the killer it's the actions of Michael Brown. His actions.
WILLIAMS: I don't think. Excuse me, but I don't think he had the gun.
WEBB: Juan, before you even get to that point, Michael Brown walking down the street, in the middle of the street. If I'm walking on the middle of the street and an officer says to me, don't walk down the middle of the street, I will get off the street.
WILLIAMS: Me too.
WEBB: Alright.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Me too. But if the cop -- do you think that's a reason for a cop to shoot you?
WEBB: No.
WILLIAMS: Oh no. OK.
WEBBS: Let's not draw into that conclusion.
WILLIAMS: No, I'm just saying, you say, oh, its' because he's walking in the street? That's not true.
WEBB: No.
JEDEDIAH BILA, GUEST CO-HOST: But if you a charge an officer.
WEBB: But if you fire an officer who grabbed the gun.
BILA: That brings it to a different level.
WEBB: If you go after it.
TANTAROS: Jedediah, Are you.
(CROSSTALK)
TANTAROS: I want to ask you about.
BILA: Yeah.
TANTAROS: About Wilson because, Michael Brown's mom came out and she said that it seemed like he wanted to kill. And in that interview, this is a cop that never pulled his gun before we can't get in his head. But, I don't think that many cops run around, wanting to kill people. Is it fair to call Darren Wilson -- Darren Wilson a victim as well? And he's lawyer came out and said, he was never going to be a part of the police force again. He's life is ruin.
BILA: Yeah.
TANTAROS: Is it fair to use that title with him?
BILA: I mean, if he were acting in self-defense, this guy's life is never going to be the same. He's not going to have to worry about his own safety, the safety of his family, probably for the rest of his life. I think it's crazy, and I think the media ran with this narrative, like they do all the time, They wanted to decide, the media made a decision in large part, they wanted to decide who was the victim, who was innocent and who was guilty. And a lot of people don't know the facts -- when I go out and I talk to people about this case, a lot of people don't know that he rob the convenience store. A lot of people don't know that he charged an officer. A lot of people don't know that police officer was, based on all the eyewitness accounts and all this evidence, was acting in self defense. They know what the media told him, and that's the problem. That before we have any of these facts, the media always decides who's innocent and guilty. And that's just not fair, that's not fair to anybody involved, and Tom, we heard that for weeks. When, no one knew what happened, except for any eyewitness at the scene, or Officer Wilson, and we saw other networks, running with this story line, as any manufactured story lined of what happened and they didn't know. And now, we see that it's all turned out to all be a lie, so where's the apology from the news network?
TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: Well, -- I have two questions. One, OK, the relationship between -- police -- police forces and the community is a legitimate issue, Alright?
BALI: Yeah.
SHILLUE: And some people have a huge problem with it, and they want to protest it. But why, did they choose this crime? It doesn't seem to fit. I mean -- you know, there are cases of police brutality and I can understand protesting those, but this looks -- how did it happen? How did this become the rallying cry? Because, it never really fit, the story -- the story again.
WEBB: Because it was black and white.
BILA: Yeah.
WEBB: This was why it fit the rallying cry, because it's the rallying cry of the Al Sharpton's of the world, and the rallying cry that went out there with the community relations service, which arrived on scene within a couple of days, sent there by the department of justice, under Eric Holder, and you look what they did, they took what was an incident between, a -- suspect and it turns out to a thug and the police officer were -- if a white person at reach -- if a white person had reach into the car of a black police officer, and done the same thing, that police officer would have had the same responsibility -- to maintain control of his weapon. You don't want someone who's willing to wrestle with a cop for his gun, to get that gun and take off with it, whether he shoots the officer or not, you don't want that gun out there. And what we got is there's a race dynamic, they can sell over the issues. There are issues to be address, but then they never go to the foundation of the issue.
WILLIAMS: You know David, I think this is so loud (ph) I mean, look, I got to tell you something, I -- I don't want anybody to make a hero out of this kid. I just thought that.
WEBB: But they have --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Stop, stop. Wait a second, wait a second. But I don't get what you're saying at all. It seems to me that if a person had been shot, and I -- you know what? Black kids get shot all the time by police -- white police.
WEBB: So the white kids, so the -- kids.
WILLIAMS: Hang on. But you know what? It doesn't become Ferguson, when most white officers shoot a black kid like that. We've seen it in Cleveland, we've seen it elsewhere, and it does not have the response that Andrea's been talking about. And I suspect it's because, of this hands up don't shoot that has become the mean for all this -- for all the protest and the all walking around. But it's not the same that every time a white cop shoots a black kid, you have this response. That's why Tom's questions so pertinent.
SHILLUE: I got another question, it's very pertinent. Why did the police have to clam up for months? Why weren't they out there the night of that shooting and say look, everybody calm down, this is not what the protesters are saying, there -- this may be a justified shooting wider than ever -- they didn't say a word.
(CROSSTALK)
SHILLUE: Why did they clam up for months?
TANTAROS: Well, they carried their -- it's a lot of justified criticism.
(CROSSTALK)
SHILLUE: Right.
WEBB: They could've, they could've handled it better.
TANTAROS: Yeah.
WEBB: Without a doubt, they could have handled the response better. But, I was down there in August, and I'm telling you, that the cop -- the company (ph) that was coming out of the people, the media, the riots and all the political figures they got involved, including State Center in Ashid (ph) who talked about, if there is no indictment without any evidence, when you have a state senator and official saying, without an indictment there will be riots and there will be more blood. You are not going to get a bomb that then.
TANTAROS: And they're still jumping in and talking about this even after they failed to indict. Russell Simmons and a number of celebrities weighing in on this, Simmons tweeting, "Together we can stand up and spark change. Join @UnitedBlackout for #BlackoutBlackFriday." And this has spurred a number of protests, Juan, at different Target stores. A Target I went to their web site, Target is a strong proponent of diversity -- supplier diversity, they called it on their web site -- developing relationships with minority and women owned vendors and suppliers. How did Target become the target of this Black Friday protest? And what does Target and Black Friday and shopping, have to do with Ferguson?
WILLIAMS: I'm not sure why Targets. I mean, it's a puzzle to me. But again, it seems to me that it's -- if you have a legitimate grievance in our country, you can protest any way you like, you can -- walk down the street and block traffic and it's inconvenience and make me angry in many cases because I'm trying to get somewhere. But I don't see that illegitimate, you can have your protest, I don't have any argument with that. I do have an argument when you make things up.
BILA: But how it can help the community. How is -- even blocking traffic, or, or looting, or shutting down businesses or boy cutting. How does it help the community? You're only hurting the (inaudible) community you're in. You're talking about job losses.
WILLIAMS: Well that's.
BILA: You're talking it up. You're talking about hurting the lives of regular citizens that are trying to go pick their -- kids up at school or get to work.
WILLIAMS: I don't know. No, no.
BILA: I mean -- that doesn't bring about any civil change.
WILLIAMS: It does, gosh. At the history of Civil Rights Movement was, boy (ph) cutting, marching and letting people know that you have a legitimate grievance and asking that the society respond, in an effective way.
(CROSSTALK)
WEBB: And I and I agree with that, Juan. But you.
WILLIAMS: It's not destroying necessarily the black community, which is what rioting does, which is why I find rioting is like, you know, it's like self destructive suicide or craziness, I --
TANTAROS: There were also protester arrested yesterday, Tom, at the Thanksgiving Day parade here in New York. And I think some people are going, what does one thing have to do with another? For well --
SHILLUE: You're not going to get any goodwill stopping Sponge Bob from going down the street.
(LAUGHTER)
BILA: There was Spiderman.
SHILLUE: I wanted to watch Sponge Bob, do not stop that parade.
BILA: I pray (ph) for that.
SHILLUE: The thing is.
(LAUGHTER)
SHILLUE: This Black Friday protest, it's, it's just strategically a mistake. Because, you can't tell the difference between protesters -- and just see the way this people behave, and on Black Friday, I mean, they look like protesters anyway.
(LAUGHTER)
SHILLUE: But they uncivil (ph) these people.
TANTAROS: Hold on. SHILLUE: You can't tell who the protester is and whose shopping.
TANTAROS: Also Pharell Williams, a very famous hip hop artist, he's taking a lot of heat for weighing in on Ferguson. He came out and said, why are we not talking about the bullyish behavior of Michael Brown. Now, he is taking a lot of flak for this David. Because, he's saying, what are you talking about? And for all sake, I think we just need to have a conversation in the black community about why Brown was acting the way he was, disrespecting the cop.
WEBB: He robbed a store next to a McDonald's, if he had gone and filled out an application at that McDonald's, he may have had the job where he could buy cigarillos. We have the video that was Pharell was talking about. And for everybody that wants talk about Target, which is right around the corner form where the riots were. And tomorrow, which is shop small business Saturday, how is that going to benefit the burned out businesses in Ferguson and surrounding neighborhoods. Where people going to shops small business Saturday.
WILLIAMS: No, base on the agreements. You know, look, I tell something -- I wrote a book, and in the books called "Enough" I point out, if you have a high levels of crime in the black community and you have thuggish behavior, you're inviting consequences.
WEBB: Yes.
WILLIAMS: It's like this -- you know, some people will say, why could you obey the cop, right Tom? You know, if what if it reasonable.
SHILLUE: He also -- Pharell, by the way, it thought his name was Pharell until this very minute.
WILLIAMS: You just made that stuff. You just made that stuff up.
(CROSSTALK)
SHILLUE: I'm fine. I'm phonetic. I -- thought his name was pharaoh (ph) anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Do you have any friends who are hip?
SHILLUE: And beside, I listen to insanely happy.
(CROSSTALK)
SHILLUE: I love the guy.
(LAUGHTER)
SHILLUE: But I think if you -- they took him out of context. He said, you know, I'm upset by this, he wants -- he upset by the verdict. He didn't -- he thought -- they should have put this guy on trial, he didn't like the results of this. But, he's also saw the other side of it, he had a very -- you know, I thought he had a very good viewpoint, he saw all sides of the issue, and all of a sudden, he's a -- he's villainous. So this guy is.
(CROSSTALK)
WEBB: At least you don't dare go against the quote, "Black Narrative" If you go against the precede Black Narrative, you're immediately a racist.
TANTAROS: Quickly.
SHILLUE: Yeah.
WEBB: Even if you're a black or the white.
TANTAROS: We got to go. We didn't have a lot of time to discuss this, but Benjamin Watson who is the player for the New Orleans Saints.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TANTAROS: Made a very, very -- I would say, retweeted Facebook post, saying this is not a skin problem, it's a sin problem. Also seeing both sides.
WEBB: Both side.
TANTAROS: Of this.
SHILLUE: That's why it went viral.
TANTAROS: Is getting attention.
SHILLUE: Because can't believe -- when someone sees both sides of the issue, they can't even believe, they say oh, my God, this is someone --
TANTAROS: Correct.
SHILLUE: They forward it to their friends.
TANTAROS: And a shameless plug (ph) walking will be on Greta, later and all happen exclusively, I'll be filling in for my friend Greta.
Alright next, on The Five, what would Civil Rights Leader Martin Luther King, have thought about the riots and looting in Ferguson, the revealing answer from his son, when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS: In the wake of the riots, looting and fires that are erupted in Ferguson this week. Many people have asked -- what would Civil Rights Icon Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. have thought of all this violence. His son, Martin Luther King III says, while he can't speak for his dad, he does have an idea of what his father might think.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN LUTHER KING III, SON OF DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.: I'm sure he would be greatly disappointed. First and foremost, he would certainly be -- very -- feeling very bad for the family. I mean, he would have empathy for the family. Secondly, he would feel disappointed that it erupted into a scenario of violence all across communities. He used to say, the violence is the language of the unheard. And he constantly talked about -- we must find nonviolent ways to address our conflicts. So, he would be advocating non violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: But others, like Morehouse College Professor Marc Lamont Hill, have been different take on the protest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC LAMONT HILL, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE PROFESSOR: Dr. King used to say, when dogs bite us in Birmingham, we bleed everywhere. This is a re-enactment of that practice, you know, someone got hurt in Ferguson, and we're bleeding everywhere. We're seeing around the country, protest, one of the big protest chants in Ferguson last night was, we don't get it, shut it down. This is what -- actually (inaudible) is right. This is what democracy looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WILLIAMS: Jedediah, I know lots of American history, we were talking about the Civil Rights Movement, before you had protest and so forth. But, violence, riots, what do you think?
BILA: Yeah, I think that Dr. King would have been appalled by the looting and appalled by the destruction of this businesses and these are businesses that are going to have to figure out a way to sort of pick themselves up right before Christmas. And what does it do? What is that solve (ph) I think he also would have talked about the importance of the family. You know, watching a lot of this footage, I saw so many young people. And I was thinking, where are their parents? Where are the people that raise down to -- to know that this is not how you effectually change? You can have a problem with what happened, you can protest, but not like this, not doing stuff that tears down the community instead of builds it up.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BILA: And I think that's what has been his comment.
WILLIAMS: Well, I can't agree more. And I think I've read, obviously a lot of Dr. King. And I can't tell you, there's -- for so explicit that nonviolence is the way to effects the change. And it's not to say that you're lazy, you're not getting out until you working at it. You have to engage the process, you have persistent, you have to be obnoxious at times, you have the mark, you have to take inconvenience into your life, but, destroying your community -- that's crazy. So, I -- I think that's right, it's not the case though -- that you say people shouldn't raise their voices, nobody's saying that. Nobody's saying you shouldn't vote, or you shouldn't say, hey this was wrong and I don't like the decision, but destruction?
TANTAROS: I also think it's a pretty dangerous message for Professor Hill to come out and say this is what democracy looks like. I mean, it's that the endorsement for democracy? I mean, that -- that is, when there's rioting in the streets and build -- businesses being destroyed, I don't think that's the right message to put out there, and I would -- I would actually ask you, Juan, I mean, I think Dr. King, if he were alive today, would be sad and obnoxious for the family and not just for the town of Ferguson. I think he be very deeply disappointed in the state of race foliation (ph) in the United States of America, decades after his passing.
WILLIAMS: I don't think there's any question that he would be a -- I think surprised that how -- we still have this problem gripping at us. Here's Colonel Allen West, giving his viewpoint.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALLEN WEST, RETIRED U.S. ARMY LIEUTENANT COLONEL: This is once again being part of the grievance industry and the race-baiting industry that continues to keep the black community in a situation of economic servitude, and also, it is about electoral votes. We really need to have the discussion in the black community about families, about families being together, about education, about young black men having respect for authority, and better jobs and education opportunities. The left to progressive (inaudible) Barack Obama, Eric holder, they don't want to have that discussion.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WILLIAMS: David -- I'll go along with much of what he said until he got to the leftist, socialist and all that kind of rhetoric. But what are you thinking?
WEBB: Here's my first thought. This is not a Civil Rights issue. What happened in Ferguson was a criminal and it's a criminal issue. They've tried to tag Civil Rights of it, and I get the easy impulse to go back and say, what would Dr. King have thought? You know, my question is, what do the residents of Ferguson actually think of this? If 64 percent black. What do those people in Ferguson and in the surrounding communities think? We've got to stop conflating Civil Rights with everything that happens between black and white. I know Marc, I talked to him while I was down there. It was an interview and some guy, bought a guy Fox mascot party city. I know <Arc a lot of time and this is what democracy looks like, chant. It's an old progressive chant that use to occupy Wall Street, we live in a representative republic, if you want to effect change, like you said Wednesday Juan, get into the political system, vote people into office that represent you well.
WILLIAMS: I don't think I have any question.
WEBB: And quit conflating Ferguson with Civil Rights.
WILLIAMS: Now, Tom, when you hear these kind of different points of view, but especially the idea that there is some Civil Right thing. What do you think?
SHILLUE: Well, I'm not going to speak to what Martin Luther King would say for that, I think it's a dangerous game to play but, I don't think it's going on a limb saying that, you know, Dr. King who was opposed to nonviolence, would not like the idea of people burning their own cities down.
WILLIAMS: Correct.
SHILLUE: But Marc Lamont Hill, his point -- he said, this was his quote from Dr, King, "When dogs bite us in Birmingham, we all bleed." But, they brought their own dogs. You know, they were the ones burning down so, it doesn't make any sense. It wasn't as if the police were you know --
WEBB: When a lie is told in Ferguson, then a lie is told everywhere. Hands up don't you, was a lie.
TANTAROS: The issue with this David is that you have the DOJ Eric Holder saying that he wants to take federal action to try and build bridges back between trust, between communities and police.
(CROSSTALK)
TANTAROS: And with that tells me, they're going to use us as an opportunity to inflame Civil Rights.
WEBB: Yes.
TANTAROS: And influence cops to not do their jobs and scare them into not doing their jobs.
WILLIAMS: Why do you say that?
TANTAROS: Because I see what's happened in New York Juan. I see exactly what build the (inaudible) is doing in these communities and cops who have been interviewed say.
WILLIAMS: I would say.
TANTAROS: Look, if I see a suspect, if I see something happening, if I see anything, white on black crime, black on black crime, I'm not going to get out of my vehicle, because I don't want to lose any job and I don't want to lose my pension.
WILLIAMS: Oh it's not.
TANTAROS: And who was that..
WILLIAMS: That I don't believe that, but anyway.
(CROSSATALK)
WILLIAMS: You know what, you know what hurts though is when young people, especially young people with color black, Hispanic (ph) et cetera, with the stop and frisk, driving while black racial profiling, feel they can't trust police officers who should be protecting their interests.
WEBB: But there let's go to the other side Juan, because, yesterday.
WILLIAMS: I got to go, I got to go.
WEBB: During the parade real quick. There's a worker at a McDonald's on 56th street, cops walk in, that happened to be a son of a friend of mine, cops walk in, the kids stands back at the counter and says, his hands up, don't shoot. You know the cop look at them said that's why you'll be a minimum wage worker and walks out. The attitude.
WILLIAMS: Alright, all right, I got to go. Up next, Hillary Clinton, she's got the low profile when it comes to Ferguson, have you noticed? But now, question is, what is she doing? Has she just zipped her lip out of political expediency? We'll have that debate next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEBB: Hillary Clinton has stayed virtually silent on the events in Ferguson. The initial remarks she made back in August came nearly three weeks after Michael Brown was fatally shot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Watching the recent funeral for Michael Brown, as a mother and as a human being, my heart just broke for his family, because losing a child is every parent's greatest fear and an unimaginable loss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEBB: Well, it's been four days since the grand jury's decision and Hillary still mum. Some are wondering what the likely presidential contender in 2016 is doing if she's playing it safe by staying out of this tense situation.
You know, I said in the last segment that this was not a civil rights, it's a criminal issue that has been purloined -- I'll use a big word on a Friday -- into this massive civil rights issue. Why does Hillary Clinton weighing in matter on this issue? It's a political play at that point to try and appease a base.
But frankly, I go back to the community. Let's go back to who and what are the actors in the community. Who are the leaders, Juan; where are the parents, where are the families? America's got to stop giving so much -- or caring so much about whether some political figure weighs in. Deal with the issues locally.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no. You're missing the point. We need leadership. And I think in a moment like this, I don't care if you are conservative or a liberal or if you think that Darren Wilson is right or you think that the kid was wrong or whatever, however you want to do it. You know, it would be different if we had leaders who would stand up and say, "This is what I think and this is where we should go as an American people."
And it's not just Hillary, David. I don't see anyone on the right, on the Republican potential nominees saying anything...
WEBB: They shouldn't.
WILLIAMS: ... with the exception of Rand Paul, who said, "You know what? There's some legitimate grievances here."
WEBB: I understand, Juan, and I agree. And I'll throw this to you, Jedidiah that I get it. People want to weigh in. This is not a right or left issue. I don't want to hear from the potential presidential contenders on the right or the left. I want to hear from real leaders. Real leaders are going to fix this in the community. The Al Sharptons of the world say they're leaders. They show up for the argument, never for the solution.
BILA: I think she makes a lot of mistakes, also. I mean, every time she opens her mouth lately, there seems to be a problem. So I think she's cautious. I think she -- she's sort of worried about what to do. And it would only be political; let's face it. Everybody at home, sitting there at home, knows that if Hillary Clinton makes a comment about this, it's probably to try to benefit her future political career.
WEBB: Well, as long as she doesn't go into that cadence, Tom. Remember? Remember her southern cadence?
SHILLUE: Could she be any less controversial, though, with her statement? I mean, she's "Isn't it sad when somebody dies"? I mean, she said nothing about the issue. You can play a tape, but this was a little bit ridiculous.
BILA: Yes. She's really going out on a limb.
SHILLUE: There is no one today, no politicians who come out and say what they believe. I came out and I looked at George H.W. Bush, after the Rodney King, the riots that were happening. The speech he gave. He got on, and he said, "This is lawlessness, and I won't stand for it." I mean, he was angry.
WEBB: Well, that's when you talk about issues.
(CROSSTALK)
TANTAROS: She's a former lawyer, right? So you would think that she would maybe want to weigh in on whether or not she trusts the grand jury system.
But if you're looking for strong commentary and someone to show up when things get tough? Hillary Clinton is not that person. I mean, her husband is the first black president, so maybe Bill will weigh in and give a little cover for her. But don't expect her to come out and make some big, bold statement. As Tom points out, really, she went out on a limb there, saying it's a tragedy when people lose their kids. What was she going to say next? Fire's bad? Wow, Hillary.
WEBB: Yes, right. All right. I brought props for this one. I have props, because Hillary Clinton gets $300,000 for speaking fees, and one of the things she demands is water and lemons. By the way, I don't have a problem with that, lemons, my voice is beat up after, what, 11 days on the road. Lemons and warm water and honey are great for you. But what's the big deal over her riders? Rock stars get it. Artists, Hollywood types.
WILLIAMS: David, David, David. You're a news man. Come on, buddy. Three hundred thousand? She gets more money to speak than Bill Clinton. And he was president. She hasn't won anything.
WEBB: And by the way, all these people that are paying her the speaking fees, what's the return on their investment? She takes their money. She makes safe statements, and she walks away. Good for her. I know she's poor.
BILA: Do you think people really care, though, about that?
WEBB: No.
BILA: I mean, do you think that's a concern? My -- I mean, people take issue with Hillary Clinton's policies. I don't know how many of them really care. I think the assumption is, all high-profile politicians, they're going to be a little bit diva-ish, and they're going to get paid a lot of money. So I don't know that anyone's going to...
WILLIAMS: Three hundred thousand?
SHILLUE: Listen...
WEBB: I'll settle for $100,000. I'm just throwing it out there.
SHILLUE: I've -- I've got to mention, for meeting planners everywhere, forget about the A-list politicians. Go with D-level comedians. I would charge one-third of what Hillary charges.
WEBB: Wait a minute. What do you get for a speaking fee?
TANTAROS: I'm not going to disclose that here. I'm nowhere in Hillary Clinton's territory. I don't request pillow, certain pillows. I don't request lemons or vegetable trays. I know Bob Beckel does. Have you seen our green room before the show?
WILLIAMS: Oh, yes.
TANTAROS: We've got a vegetable tray. We've got lemons. We've got tea and ginger ale.
WEBB: Which he never eats.
TANTAROS: But you know, she -- I don't think anybody really cares about this. I think they hope that Republicans will take the bait and make a big deal about this.
WEBB: Exactly.
TANTAROS: While it doesn't make her a diva, you know, but it doesn't make her a woman of the people either.
WEBB: No.
TANTAROS: And that's her big thing. "We're flat broke; we're dead broke. We don't have a lot of money." And you know what? She's not her husband, because remember her husband used to say, "I love McDonald's coffee. I love McDonald's Egg McMuffins." He showed himself as the man of the people, stopping by the McDonald's in his jogging suits. She's a different animal, and she can't shake that.
WILLIAMS: Remember when she said...
TANTAROS: ... rich Hillary, elitist persona.
WILLIAMS: Remember when she said that she was a Yankees fan and, of course, she grew up in Chicago. She's a Cubs fan. I don't get it.
SHILLUE: I don't know.
BILA: She could get 20 bucks, and she's finger in the wind, whichever which way the wind's blowing.
WEBB: All right. Well -- by the way, I've got to ask you about your rider someday, Juan. We have to talk.
BILA: Yes, Juan. When are you the man? Huh? Some candles, scented candles? Some 700...
WILLIAMS: Scented candles.
WEBB: He got to go for a steak for Al Sharpton.
All right, when we come back, hey, "Star Wars" fans -- I was one of them -- rejoice. The much-anticipated trailer for newest installment in the "Star Wars" saga is now out, "The Force Awakens." There it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BILA: Well, the Force is back. "Star Wars" fans were treated to their first glimpse of "The Force Awakens" as the highly-anticipated trailer for the latest installment of the popular film franchise was released today. Here is a sneak peak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?
The dark side. And the light.
(MUSIC: "STAR WARS" THEME)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BILA: The seventh "Star Wars" film hits the theaters December 18, 2015.
I know absolutely nothing about "Star Wars." I know two things about "Star Wars": Princess Leia and light savers (ph). So I'm going to go to you, Tom.
SHILLUE: Did you say "light savers"? What are you, 9? "Light savers"?
BILA: Light -- light -- what are they? Something.
SHILLUE: It's "sabers" with a "B."
BILA: OK. I don't know what they are.
WEBB: Which was actually a broom stick.
BILA: All I know is that it's a toy. You know, I have some fun with that. But I need you to tell me why I should care about this and why this is going to be the biggest deal.
SHILLUE: Listen, I'm from the "Star Wars" generation. I was in seventh grade, all right, and I asked a girl to go with me, and she stood me up. I was there alone. I had to sit in the back of that theater. I was the original "Star Wars" generation.
But I'll tell you this. I -- you know, term limits works for the presidency, and I think it should work for films, because "Star Wars" was great. "Empire Strikes Back," it got even better. And then in the third one, those dumb little Ewoks, it started getting dumb. And then, you know, everything. Even "Lord of the Rings," which I love. By the end of that third movie, I was like, "All right, hobbit, wrap it up." You know? Enough. Just two movies, that's all you get.
BILA: Andrea, have you noticed that the "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" fans seem to be, like, very rabid, like they're really into this stuff? Have you noticed that?
TANTAROS: Like Tom.
BILA: Where they go to conventions.
TANTAROS: He's the perfect example.
SHILLUE: Listen, they lost me in these last couple films, but I'm still a "Star Wars" nerd, because I saw that Millennium Falcon taking off and I got excited. My heart went like this.
BILA: I saw that.
SHILLUE: I mean, did you see that? It is a gorgeous looking spaceship.
BILA: I've never seen him so...
TANTAROS: I thought you were going to ask me if I associate "Star Wars" fans with being geeks, or "Star Trek" fans. And I think J.J. Abrams, who's doing this movie, did the "Star Trek" remake, as well. Is that true?
SHILLUE: Oh, yes. He did, and he's great. I mean, and the "Star Trek" remake was great.
WEBB: Yes. "Aliens." He's done some great movies.
SHILLUE: He's going to do great with this. He's a great director. So I'm sure it's going to be good. Maybe it will make up for those last six movies dumb.
WILLIAMS: Well, apparently, they have a new villain. And what I did see in the trailer was, there's a new -- Jedidiah, just for you -- light saber. A new one. And in this, the light saber is a cross shape, so it has new powers, hopefully powers that could capture Jedidiah.
BILA: I thought it was like "save your life." Like a little light that would save you.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no.
WEBB: I just have one thing to say about this -- two things. One, I know you have a Darth Vader costume.
Two, any "Star Wars" fan out there, you know this joke, and I'll date myself. "Luke, I am your father."
BILA: Oh, my gosh.
WEBB: "But you're black."
Everybody who knows that joke. Tom knows it, he knows the joke.
WILLIAMS: You know what, though? Speaking of people becoming rabid fans, at the Thanksgiving table, all the young people are talking about "Hunger Games." I mean, it is huge. It's the biggest movie on the scene right now.
BILA: It's like the new "Star Wars."
SHILLUE: It's great. Very libertarian leanings, too.
TANTAROS: If you saw -- if you saw all the food that I ate yesterday...
WEBB: Still has to be "Guardians of the Galaxy." That's my movie.
TANTAROS: ... it was like to the opposite of "The Hunger Games."
SHILLUE: "Hunger Games"?
WILLIAMS: Well, you're a winner, kid.
BILA: All right. Well, ahead on "The Five," brand-new developments in the suspension of former Ravens running back Ray Rice. Details coming up.
But first, here's some food for thought: What can your co-workers tell about you, based on the lunch you eat? We will reveal the surprising answer, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SHILLUE: On this day after Thanksgiving, when many folks are digging into leftovers for lunch at the office, we wonder what do yours say about you? Well, it turns out your co-workers can tell a lot about you based on the lunch that you eat.
According to "The Huffington Post," a single slice of pizza is the "I only have $3 to my name: lunch. Hard-boiled eggs and tuna salad is the "I have no respect for your sense of smell" lunch. And vending machine items like Doritos, M&Ms and a Coke are the "I'm a ridiculously hard worker" lunch. Or that's what -- that's what they like to pretend.
TANTAROS: Who doesn't care about their health.
SHILLUE: They've got an attitude.
Listen, I am a sandwich guy. I like bologna on white. I like tuna on rye. I'm a simple guy. With a black coffee.
WILLIAMS: They've got you covered. They've got you covered.
WEBB: And have the...
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: It says if you have a ham sandwich every day, you're a "Give me a raise" guy.
SHILLUE: Exactly. It's all about success with me.
Let me guess your lunches. Juan, I see you as like a -- you'll like a real, like, sophisticated, like a fillet of sole. Is that what it is?
WILLIAMS: Fillet of sole? Wow.
SHILLUE: You go out. You're a lunch at the club kind of guy. Is that you?
WILLIAMS: Lunch at the club?
SHILLUE: Yes, yes.
WILLIAMS: Well, only if you would invite me.
TANTAROS: Is that soul, S-O-U-L?
SHILLUE: That's a sitcom.
WILLIAMS: There we go.
SHILLUE: "Fillet of Soul."
Andrea, what do you think? Greek salad, is that you? I'm getting -- I'm getting...
TANTAROS: No, no. That's stereotyping, thanks.
SHILLUE: I know. You women love salads, don't you?
WEBB: Sole, Greek salad.
TANTAROS: I will have a salad.
SHILLUE: You love picking at that salad.
TANTAROS: You know why I like salads? Because they're fast. I like the premade ones. They're fast; they're easy. They're healthy. And I like to eat alone. I don't do sit-down lunches.
SHILLUE: How did you Greeks take over a whole salad? How did you claim that?
TANTAROS: I don't know. We took over a lot of things.
SHILLUE: Let's see. David, I'm going to say raw steak. Just munching on a steak. That's what I see with you.
WEBB: I'm a carnivore. You know what I do? I go over to Del Frisco's, and Al Sharpton and I sit down.
TANTAROS: Yes, right.
WEBB: And we talk civil rights issues over it. I like it rare. He likes it well done and burned.
SHILLUE: Yes. He must go with no carbs, though. Right? He lost all that weight. How did he do that?
WEBB: I don't even want to go there.
SHILLUE: Jeddi, I'd say -- well, you told me. You like three martinis and a bread stick, and that's it.
BILA: I don't even drink. That's awesome. Don't even drink. But what I do like is, like, chicken. Chicken wings, chicken legs. You'll often find me in the green room, like, gnawing on, like, a chicken leg. Get it all over me. I'm a messy eater.
WEBB: Bone and all. She gets right down to the marrow.
BILA: Bone and all. I get right down.
SHILLUE: You always say that. You're always acting like you're one of the guys, just walking around with a drumstick in your hand.
BILA: Listen, I'm from Brooklyn. You really want to mess with me, Shillue?
SHILLUE: I think it was years ago.
BILA: I'm from Brooklyn.
SHILLUE: OK. There you go, you're tough.
I used to have -- I used to work a real job, back before I did things like this. I'd sit there at my office, and women, they always had their salads. And they would come in. I'd be working reception, and I always had a brownie on my desk. I would wait to the end of the day. And I'm telling you, nothing drives women crazy like a snack that you don't eat.
TANTAROS: You don't eat in the office?
SHILLUE: You know, they would walk by, and they'd get hostile. They'd say, "Oh, are you going to eat that?"
"Maybe later."
And then, they'd come back and check their mail to say, "Are you going to eat that brownie?" Like they would get -- they would get crazy.
BILA: Chocolate makes us crazy.
SHILLUE: Yes.
BILA: I'm usually, like, a little bit of a thief, though. They should have gotten right in there and -- you know?
WILLIAMS: What about the bag of chips? I like that. I thought the bag of chips and M&Ms, man, I don't know how you justify that.
TANTAROS: You get on a sugar high, though, and then you crash.
WILLIAMS: Imagine how I would be if I crashed and I started screaming or something. People would be like, "You're obnoxious."
TANTAROS: No, we don't want you to be all tired at the table.
WILLIAMS: I know this group doesn't.
TANTAROS: If you crash from your sugar high here. And you're sweet enough already, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Aw!
SHILLUE: Aw!
WEBB: Aw! A holiday hug. Greek-and-soul love.
TANTAROS: Fillet of soul.
SHILLUE: That's what I do here on the show.
OK. "One More Thing" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TANTAROS: It's time now for "One More Thing." Mr. Shillue, you can kick us off.
SHILLUE: All right. Thanksgiving day, I wasn't even watching the game. I was stuffing in my face. But I've been watching this over and over on the Internet. Chicago Bears-Detroit Lions game, this kid, 12-year-old Quintavious Johnson, sang the national anthem. Look at this kid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUINTAVIOUS JOHNSON, SINGER (singing): And the home of the brave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHILLUE: I love this kid. I have been watching that over -- You've got to watch the whole song. Don't watch look at the end there. He's incredible. I love this kid.
TANTAROS: It was very good. You know what was even better? When the Eagles beat the Cowboys. That was even better.
SHILLUE: I didn't even know -- I didn't even know who won that game. I've just been watching the...
BILA: The kid.
SHILLUE: ... the national anthem.
TANTAROS: All right. Nice one. Juan.
WILLIAMS: Well, more NFL news. Ray Rice has had his suspension, his indefinite suspension overturned. You know, Rice was initially suspended for two games, but then once that video emerged of him punching his girlfriend, knocking her out in an Atlantic City elevator came out, the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell, decided it was time for an indefinite suspension.
Today, a judge ruled that's basically double jeopardy and said that Rice is reinstated. The question is, will anybody pick up Ray Rice? It's late in the season, and he has a difficult reputation now. Who wants to handle that public relations difficulty?
TANTAROS: I wonder if he's going to be reinstated. You think...
WILLIAMS: Well, he's reinstated. I just don't know...
TANTAROS: ... a team will take him?
WILLIAMS: I don't -- I don't see it.
TANTAROS: We'll see.
SHILLUE: He's not going to get any endorsements, that's for sure.
TANTAROS: That's going to be very hard.
WILLIAMS: I don't think it's time for a joke, either.
TANTAROS: My turn. What do you get when you combine shirtless hunky men and adorable animals?
My Christmas gift.
WILLIAMS: Oh, my gosh.
TANTAROS: Well, every year, Omega Tau Sigma, veterinary fraternity at Cornell's College of Veterinary Medicine creates this amazing calendar. Really, really good-looking men, and adorable little animals. And every year it seems to do really well. Shocking.
And if you're thinking about getting it for me, which you should, or any other friend or family member, it's already sold out. So a message to this fraternity: Please make more so that we can order them. Because that looks like a great gift, don't you think?
WEBB: Andrea, do you want the calendar, or the visit to the fraternity?
TANTAROS: You know what? If they threw in a visit, that would be good, too.
SHILLUE: You don't have to buy it. Just stop by Gutfeld's office. It's on his wall.
TANTAROS: That's not a calendar. That's not a calendar.
All right. Jedidiah.
BILA: Oh, man. OK, this is awesome. An Australian lawyer, David Richards, just set a world record. He strung up 1.2 million Christmas lights -- and we have that for you to take a look at -- in the center of the national capital. Look at that. That's amazing. I feel really guilty for not putting out my four-foot tree now after seeing this.
But 75 miles of multicolored wire strung in the shape of three presents. Look at that. That's amazing. And the electricity, it's kind of cool, is donated by a local power company.
They do it for charity. Visitors to the 2013 light show donated $117,000 to the sudden infant death syndrome counseling. And now he's saying that this year it should be bigger and better. And I think it's amazing that he did this. Really cool.
TANTAROS: Looks like Bob Beckel's house with all the lights.
BILA: yes.
TANTAROS: David.
WEBB: He's an underachiever, by the way. I don't know how he does it. But for SIDS, good way to do it.
Well, Christmas spirit, when does everybody get the Christmas spirit? There's a moment when I get it. Well, the official White House Christmas tree is there. It's been checked out by Michelle Obama and Sasha and Malia. They've accepted it. And it will be in the blue room. So if you're going to get the Christmas spirit after Black Friday, then I suggest you do it here and just look at it.
Coming from Pennsylvania, third time that this particular farm has had their tree put up there at the White House. So...
TANTAROS: Why would it come from Pennsylvania? Maybe they get the Christmas spirit. I don't know. I like January 2.
WEBB: Well, it's snowing out there a lot.
SHILLUE: Got to take it from a swing state, right?
WEBB: You've found a way to put politics in this.
TANTAROS: All right. Also, 10 p.m. tonight, "On the Record," I will be filling in, so if you have your leftovers from Thanksgiving, you can join me at 10. We also have an NFL player weighing in on Ferguson, Ray Rice and more.
And do not forget to set your DVR so you never, ever miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. We'll see you back here on Monday. Have a great weekend.
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