Fauci: America will reach herd immunity when 70% get COVID vaccine
National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases director discusses coronavirus vaccine rollout on 'The Story'
This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum" December 2, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MACCALLUM: So good evening everybody. Breaking tonight the battle in
Georgia, oh, it's getting ugly as the senate hangs in the balance down
there. The Presidents election lawyers went full throttle against the
Republican Governor of Georgia Brian Kemp for not being tough enough on the
election transparency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): We want to fix the mess he created. And then he can
resign. And as far as I'm concerned, lock him up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So there was that today. And we are also monitoring this in
Lansing, Michigan tonight. This is just the latest in a stream of
presentations by Rudy Giuliani claiming voter fraud in Michigan and he's
going to have testimony from those who say they witnessed it. We'll keep an
eye on that for you. We will bring you anything that comes from that. That
is the President released a 46 minute video on Facebook today on the
integrity of the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, 45TH U.S. PRESIDENT: We were right about the fraud. Joe Biden
can't be President. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of votes. We
are talking about numbers like nobody has ever seen before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: And with that, good evening to THE STORY everybody. I am Martha
MacCallum in New York City. Lindsey Graham is here this evening with his
reaction to all of that and the next huge election that is coming soon in
Georgia. We are also going to speak to Dr. Fauci this evening about the
United Kingdom getting the vaccine before the United States from a largely
Pfizer driven vaccine that was created under Operation Warp Speed. We will
also talk to him about the ongoing lockdowns, of schools, of colleges, of
businesses in this country. We will get his thoughts on that, reaction to
that.
Plus Mike Rowe will join us with his take on the impact of all of that and
all of our lives as it continues here across the country. Also tonight part
two of my interview with Brad Parscale, Former Trump Campaign Manager as
the President makes clear last night at a White House Christmas Party that
he is definitely considering running in 2024.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's been an amazing four years. We're trying to do another four
years. Otherwise, I'll see you in four years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So we begin tonight with Senator Lindsey Graham, Chair of the
Judiciary Committee, Senator, good to see you tonight. And lots to talk
about, so let's dive right in. First of all, you see Lin Wood there going
after Brian Kemp the Governor - the Republican Governor of Georgia and
encouraging people basically that voting is rigged and discouraging them at
this point just a few weeks out from this really important senate election.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Number one, Republicans need to show up and
vote for Senator Perdue and Loeffler. If we don't get 52 Republicans in the
Senate, the Democrats are going to change our country to the point you
won't recognize it. So help where you can, if you want to give money to
Georgia, go on the internet and look at their websites or give money to
Lindsey Graham.com and I will send it all down to Georgia. So the radical
agenda that they are proposing for our country it can only be stopped if we
get Georgia right. We've got to win in Georgia.
MACCALLUM: So how do you get it right? When you've got people going after
the governor and saying that this is undermined, it's going to be real
hard?
GRAHAM: Let me tell you how. Yes. Number one, mail-in voting, the way they
are doing it throughout the country will be the end of the Republican
Party. All you need in Georgia is for one person to verify a signature
every signature on mail-in ballots should be verified in a bipartisan way.
So I'm begging the governor to call the legislature back in session and do
two things. Make sure that when it comes to verifying signatures on mail-in
ballots that is done by bipartisan not a single individual in a county
office that may have an agenda that's partisan. That is the simple fix. If
you do that, you're probably going to see Loeffler and Perdue from a lot of
fraud.
As for what happened to Trump, keep fighting Mr. President. Make your case
in court. And just fight as hard as you can to improve the system. My beef
is not with Governor Kemp. He seems like a decent fellow. But what he is
not doing, in my view, is proactively facing a system. We know that the
mail-in voting system in Georgia needs to be reformed. And we've got days
to fix it, not months.
MACCALLUM: But it's not like the Republicans did know this was coming.
That's part of the big problem here. I mean, you've got days to fix it,
it's like - why? So a lot of people are looking for a coordinated effort.
And I spoke with Brad Parscale yesterday. He said that he felt that some
mistakes were made in terms of the readiness to have lawyers in all of
these venues and making sure that you had all these representations. Listen
to what he says about what he thinks Loeffler and Perdue should do. Listen
to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD PARSCALE, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: You know, to all those
Republicans right now in Georgia that are angry at the Republican Party and
they want it - and they are mad, they don't want to vote, I would do the
opposite. I would stand up and I would say I want two senators make a
promise right now, that you'll push for senate investigation from the
Judiciary Committee of all the voting issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So should the senators - should they ask for that (a) and (b)
should they be more forceful about this whole situation?
GRAHAM: We need to get off our (inaudible) and change the law in Georgia
before the January 5th runoff. Is the Republican control Statehouse, State
Senate with the Republican Governor. What I'm begging Georgia to do - I am
the Senate Judiciary Chairman, I am not a Federal Judge to Trump legal
team, you're making all these claims, you've got to prove it. Doing a video
is not proof. You need to take these claims into a court of law and get
relief. As to the legislative body in Georgia, you need to change your law.
I can't change Georgia law. So we need to change the law so that the senate
races are not stolen from us. The best way to make sure that Trump legacy
stay's in place as to win Georgia. If you want to protect this family from
another round of
Mueller investigation's, we need to win Georgia. If you want to make sure
that crazy people like the one nominated for the OMB Director never gets a
job, make sure we win in Georgia. A lot is at stake. LindseyGraham.com.
that's the one way to help to sent money.
MACCALLUM: What are they going to change? What is Georgia going - I know
you've donated I think a $1 million from your senate campaign to Georgia
effort.
GRAHAM: Yes, $3 million.
MACCALLUM: $3 million, OK, to the Georgia efforts. But you say we have to
change these laws in the next few days. What specifically needs to be
changed?
GRAHAM: In Georgia, a mail-in ballot, signature verification is done by a
single individual in a county office. If they have a problem with the
signature, they will call somebody above them. And if there's a dispute,
they will go to a third person. But in Fulton County where Biden got 80
percent of the vote, I think they had 11 signatures rejected. In the
database they are using, this consent decree entered into by the Secretary
of State with Stacey Abrams, they end her lawsuit in Georgia has really put
us behind the eight ball.
Change the consent decree so that you are verifying signatures before the
ballot application was actually made and make sure that every signature is
validated by a bipartisan group. We have a bipartisan group counting
ballots. We have a bipartisan group checking you and when you vote in
person. In Georgia, a single person has the final say, they waive it all
through. Now they say there's a problem, it's mind-boggling.
MACCALLUM: It's kind of mind-boggling. No, I am saying, you know, why is it
just a weeks away from this selection and now there is - you are saying
push through some legislation. Where is everybody been on this, because
it's a Republican Legislation, Republican Governor, Republican Secretary of
State?
GRAHAM: Damn, if I know, but Trump has been saying to anybody that will
listen. They use COVID as a way to expand mail-in voting. Voting by mail
tripled in Georgia. They got all these drop boxes by Walmart where people
drop in mail-in ballots. I am telling you right now, if you audited the
envelopes, the signature on them, that you will find if you had a
bipartisan group or machine doing it, a higher rejection rate then actually
occurred in the election. But we've got a new election coming. Now we've
got nobody to blame but ourselves, if we sit on our ass and continue to
allow the system to exist. So - like the governor, he's a find fellow, but
he needs to change the law before it is too late so we don't get cheated
out of these two senate seats.
MACCALLUM: Lindsey Graham, good to have you here tonight, Senator. And we
will see where it goes. Apparently David Perdue is in favor of the Senate
Judiciary Committee looking into this. But you're saying that's not how
it's going to work.
GRAHAM: Yes. No, I'm not a Federal Judge. I can't get relief. I can't
change Georgia law. By the time the senate acts up here, the election will
be over. The Statehouse in Georgia can change state election law in
Georgia, I can't. Federal Judges can get relief, I can't. Go to court with
a case that makes sense, change the law where you can to require bipartisan
signature verification. I'm not trying to tip it to Republicans I'm trying
to prevent Republicans from being cheated by a system that is ripe for
fraud.
MACCALLUM: It's amazing. I mean you need to have a fair election. And
having people on both sides witnessed the process should be baked in the
cake. And the fact that it's not, I think it's just shocking to people
across the country, Senator Graham, always good to see you sir. Thank you
for being here tonight.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So joining me now, Democratic Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin from
Michigan. She sits on the House Homeland Security and Armed Services
Committees. Great to have you with us this evening, Congresswoman. Good to
have you.
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): Thanks for having me.
MACCALLUM: You know, it's - I just want to get your reaction to that story
first. And then I have some other things that I wanted to talk to you about
on the international front. But, right now, there's another hearing going
on in Michigan. People watch these things at night and they hear this, you
know people who seem very well intentioned say in Michigan, one woman that
I watched last night talking about how she was told that there was a
discrepancy over a ballot. It had two people signed on it. Joe Biden and a
green candidate and like, oh, just put that in Biden's category. And she
said that she was strong armed over and over on this. Now what is your take
on all this?
SLOTKIN: I mean, I think it's really system, it's really simple. We have a
system of rules and laws, and if there are credible issues of fraud, bring
that to the authorities. I mean, bring it up. We have a redundant paper
ballot systems so that we can go back and recount and recheck. I mean you
know, where these ballots are, let's check it. But I think once we looked
into things and really investigated, we also have to be able to say that
the rule of law has prevailed.
And I think what we are seeing right now is that really great people in
Michigan, Republican local leaders and clerks, stood up and they certify
their election. They stood by their work and they are still having folks
come in over their heads trying to pressure them. So I give them a lot of
credit. If you have a credible allegation, put up or shut up.
MACCALLUM: So obviously the COVID relief bill is a major priority once
again. What is your anticipation of where this is going to go and there's a
senate bill, $908 billion that is being worked on right now. When is relief
coming?
SLOTKIN: Yes. So there was a group of us who worked very quietly to try and
pressure frankly all sides to get to the negotiating table. I think it is
crazy, the idea that we would go home for Christmas break without having
some sort of COVID deal with everyone suffering, even if it's a short-term
deal. Something is better than nothing.
So it's been a bipartisan group of us that have been working with the
senators to try to get this done. And we heard today, some movement, right.
There is been some calls between Mnuchin and Pelosi. Pelosi said she is
willing to use that deal as the basis of negotiations, that's good. It
wouldn't better in October, but it's good to do it now. And we just can't
go home without it.
MACCALLUM: There's a lot of that sounds bent and designated now. I think
people can't figure it out either. Why you need to vote on more money when
there's I think $6 trillion that's still sitting in the mix. You said you
will not vote for Nancy Pelosi to be the speaker of the house, what you
think is going to happen with that?
SLOTKIN: Well, listen, I mean that was the commitment I made in front of my
constituents back in 2018. I didn't go for hearing in then and I am
sticking to my commitment. She's got a similar majority so it's a lot
tougher of a race. But I think there is an active campaign going on right
now on her behalf and there is no one running against her. And in my world,
you can't beat something with nothing. So I wouldn't be surprised if she
was the speaker again.
MACCALLUM: Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin of Michigan said to be potentially
in the running for CIA Director. We thank you for being here tonight. Well,
speak with you again soon. Thank you.
SLOTKIN: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: So we just showed you a little bit of it. President Trump
posting a nearly hour long video this afternoon detailing specific cases of
what he considers voter fraud in key swing states showing charts and graphs
and examples. His critics have been quick to dismiss these as conspiracies,
but as we promised you from the beginning, we are digging into them to see
what we find, for real. That's up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was a massive dump of votes, mostly Biden, almost all Biden. And
to this day, everybody is trying to figure out "where did it come from"?
But I went from leading by a lot to losing by a little. And that's right
here, that's at 342 in the morning. That's Wisconsin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So President Trump releasing that video message a short while
ago using charts as examples as he continues to press his case. At the same
time, his legal team is holding another hearing tonight. They are in
Lansing, Michigan, where we expect to hear from some witnesses as we have
in the past few days who claim that they witnessed suspicious activity on
election night, none of those witnesses - we haven't heard from them at
this point in that hearing.
So most of the President's critics have been quick to dismiss these claims
as conspiracy theories, but as we promised you from the beginning we will
look into these accusations and go through it and talk to the people
involved and try to figure out what was going on. Fox News Anchor and
Senior Correspondent Eric Shawn, has been on this beat all week. He's
actually been on it for years, looking at election situations and voting
situations. Eric, good evening. Good to have you here. What you find out?
ERIC SHAWN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martha. Yes, thank you.
Well, you just heard the President say it. He branded a massive dump of
votes. But election officials say it is not what he implies. They say there
is no nefarious big batch for Biden. Just votes they insist that are being
counted properly as the law requires. Those spikes that the President says
are suspicious. Well, they did come up in the key State of Pennsylvania
during that hearing last week. You may remember the Republican sponsored
gathering on the election in Gettysburg. Well, at that hearing one person
started those mysterious huge spikes in the vote tally in that key state,
hundreds of thousands of ballots recorded all at the same time and how that
could possibly not be OK. Because there was no way it was said that so many
ballots could be counted so quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. PHIL WALDREN (RET) CYBERSECURITY EXPERT: As there is a spike in loaded
votes, 337,000 plus or minus of some votes that were added in their - in
one big batch. So that was an anomaly in the reporting. Normally you would
expect to see a smooth curve going up, not any big spikes. The anomalies of
loading and uploading those votes, so that big spike that occurs there is a
prime indicator of fraudulent voting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHAWN: But officials say those spikes are not fraud, simply the way a large
number of mail-in votes are entered into the computer in big batches. In
fact, one Pennsylvania election official tells me "the ballots are opened
and scanned and then uploaded, tens of thousands at a time" it will cause
about looks like spike, but if you have been countering them for many hours
before that, they are aggregating uploads from various counties. It's like
saying we uploaded 75,000 ballots in 5 minutes. We counted in 5 minutes,
that's not true. We have been counting them for hours.
The Pennsylvania Secretary of State Kathy Boockvar notes that the state 67
counties did start counting the votes at 7:00 a.m. on Election Day morning,
so that means that they had a 13 hour head start before the polls even
closed, in order to count those votes "a large number of votes would be
reported in a short time frame". Waldren attempted depict as a "prime
indicator of fraudulent voting", indicates either a woeful ignorance of
election administration basics, earn intentionally false statement and
intended to mislead the public.
And the election experts also point out that none of the tens of thousands
of officials and election workers across the country who did work on the
selection, none of them have reported any massive fraud or anything with
these spikes from Utah and Colorado. Election Officials Jennifer Morrell
says unsupported claims of fraud damage our democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER MORRELL, THE ELECTIONS GROUP: It breaks my heart to see that
happening. And it breaks my heart for what it says about us, as a country.
That we would allow that to happen to these folks that really are true
heroes, true public servants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHAWN: Well, officials across the country insist that any creditable claim
of election fraud will be properly investigated. Martha.
MACCALLUM: Eric, thank you for that. We also heard - we've been watching
some of these witnesses that have emerged over the course of the last
several days on this. And there were whistle-blowers who appeared last
night with Sean Hannity. Truck driver Jesse Morgan, a subcontractor for the
postal service claims that he drove almost 300,000 completed mail-in
ballots from New York to Pennsylvania. Here is a bit of what he said, Eric.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE MORGAN, USPS SUBCONTRACTOR TRUCK DRIVER: This happened on October
21st. I picked them up in Bethpage, New York and drove them to Harrisburg
and then from Harrisburg I drove to Lancaster, dropped the trailer in
Lancaster, dropped my truck off, and went home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So he said that he thought the whole thing struck him as kind
of, strange that he was moving around these 24 ballots of vote in the back
of his truck. And then when he got there, the typical thing is to get paper
signed, the delivery has been made and he wouldn't give him any of the
paperwork because they said the truck was then going to be taken to another
location where they would give him paperwork. I think anybody who listens
to this, thinks that it's sounds fishy and want to know, you know, what's
going on with it? What do you know about the situation?
SHAWN: It does sound fishy. But the claim that completed ballots Martha
were driven from Long Island to Pennsylvania and they disappeared sometime
in October, election officials tell me that that just cannot happen.
Because every ballot, they say, is matched to a voter and then they double
check it and they confirm. They say you just can't simply get hundreds of
thousands of fake ballots or signs ballots somehow into the system. I asked
Wanda Murren who is the Communications Director for the Secretary of State
in Pennsylvania about this very claim and she answered this way.
Saying "there is obviously no end to the conspiracy theories that can be
fabricated". The "witnesses who will step up to make false claims" and they
are "experts that can be found to lend some pseudo-credibility to this
claims. But in the court, in one case after another, no one has been able
to produce and shred of evidence of fraud continuing to repeat these
falsehoods only harms our democracy. Jesse recalls this type a basis attack
she says on election workers and on the system and volunteers "repugnant".
And I'm sure if there's any evidence in this as we have said, authorities
will be investigating.
MACCALLUM: It needs to be taken to the court and evaluated that way, all of
the people have signed affidavits swearing to the accuracy of them, they
have not presented it in court. Eric, thank you very much. Good to have you
here tonight. So for months, Senator Rand Paul has been a thorn in the side
of Dr. Anthony Fauci.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): Really what we should do with Dr. Fauci is sit him
down and show him the evidence on lockdowns. Right now, we have more
mandates in place then we have ever had. We have more masks wearing then we
have ever had. And yet the incidence of the disease is exploding. It really
may be showing us that what we are doing is not working.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Dr. Fauci responds live to that and other questions about the
vaccine when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Fox News alert. In New York, protests growing out of a
restaurant in Staten Island called Mac's Public House. This is just one of
the many restaurants that has disobeyed the orders to shut down their
indoor dining. Police arrested the general manager for defining New York
States very strict COVID-19 rules. We will keep an eye on that story
tonight.
Today, the United Kingdom became the first country in the world to approve
a thoroughly tested COVID vaccine. It's the Pfizer vaccine. You've heard a
lot about it, partnered with BioNTech. That was part of the Operation Warp
Speed. We were told that they could begin injections as soon this Monday in
the U.K. But here at home the FDA will not meet to decide until December
10th. When questioned on why the United States fell behind Great Britain,
FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN HAHN, COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUGS ADMINISTRATION: We are one of
the few regulatory agencies in the world -- not the only one -- that
actually looks at the raw data from clinical trial. So, we are not going to
take a summary from a company and take their conclusions and base our
decision upon that. What we are going to do is actually crunch the numbers
ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM (on camera): Joining me now, Dr. Anthony Fauci, White House
Coronavirus Task Force member and National Institute of Allergy and
Infection Diseases director. Doctor, good to have you with us tonight.
Thank you very much for being here.
ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS
DISEASES: Good to be with you.
MACCALLUM: So, it sounds like -- if I read it correctly -- the way that
the U.K. did it, they looked at some of that data as it was going along in
parallel.
FAUCI: Right.
MACCALLUM: And that maybe why there's a bit of a discrepancy in the delay,
but I think a lot of people are very frustrated. They want to get their
hands on this vaccine.
FAUCI: Yes. Well, you know, I think that the way the FDA, our FDA is doing
it, is the correct way. As you heard from Dr. Hahn, the commissioner of the
FDA, we really scrutinize the data very carefully to guarantee to the
American public that this is a safe and efficacious vaccine.
I think if we did any less, we would add to the already existing hesitancy
on the part of many people to take the vaccine because they are concerned
about safety, or they are concerned that we went to quickly.
So, it's almost the damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Because if
you go quickly, and if you do it superficially, people are not going to
want to get vaccinated.
We have the gold standard of a regulatory approach with the FDA. The U.K.
did not do it as carefully, they got a couple of days ahead. I don't think
that makes much difference. We'll be there; we'll be there very soon.
MACCALLUM: When do you think we'll reach herd immunity in the United
States? Back to normal life?
FAUCI: You know, it's not necessarily going to be a matter of time, but a
matter of the percentage of people in the country who decide they do want
to get vaccinated.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
FAUCI: You know, after what we just mentioned about the confidence of the
people, the estimate is that you will need about 70 percent, maybe 75
percent of the people in the country vaccinating to get that umbrella of
herd immunity that will get us really on the road very close to being
normal. The sooner we do that, the better.
If you look at the incremental increases and the vaccinations that will
occur from late December through January, February, March, you'll get most
of the people in the high-priority group. As we get towards the end of
March, the beginning of April, it will be more of the general population.
So, we could have a couple of months there if we really do a good job and
put on a full-court press to get people vaccinated. By April, May, and
early June we could be there.
MACCALLUM: All right.
FAUCI: So, by the time you get into the middle of the summer, we will be
in good shape. That's possible.
MACCALLUM: Everybody is desperate for this thing to end.
FAUCI: Yes.
MACCALLUM: This is Senator Rand Paul. You guys have butted heads a few
times. Here's what he had to say about the school openings not happening as
quickly as they shed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): When I try to get Dr. Fauci to look at the data six
months ago on children, the data from Europe where they were keeping
schools open and they did not have surges, he was unwilling to look at it.
He was so overly cautious that he wanted to keep schools closed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM (on camera): So, there was data back from JAMA in April 22nd and
Lancet back in June 25th --
FAUCI: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- basically encouraging that children were not big
transmitters and did not suffer terribly when they did get COVID. So why
have we been locked on for so long, doctor?
FAUCI: Well, I mean, I think we better get our facts straight. First of
all, that's totally incorrect that I refused to look at the data. I looked
at all the data. And I have been saying for a considerable period of time
that we should have a default position getting the children back to school
or keeping them in school.
So, there is no difference there. And when you say locked down, you got to
be careful. There are mitigation things that you do that the wearing of
masks, keeping distances, avoiding congregate settings, that isn't really
locking down. It's doing some fundamental basic public health measures that
is certainly short of locking down.
I think there is kind of a misunderstanding of people thinking that when
you ask people to do some simple public health measures that we know do
work.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: But I don't think all these businesses are misunderstanding
what's going on. They are not allowed to open, the schools, many of the
schools are closed.
FAUCI: Yes.
MACCALLUM: You've got college kids who have been literally prisoners in
their dorm rooms, they can't leave. And you know, little kids whose mothers
have had to quit their jobs. I mean, tell them that there's no lockdown,
doctor.
FAUCI: Yes. Well, there is a big difference from state to state. You've
got to be careful. This is the United States of America. And one of the
things we pride ourselves in as it were is that the individual states can
do things depending on what their own evaluation has. Which is a good thing
in many respects.
And when you look at some of the states, they have such an extraordinary
degree of community spread, that you know that when you do that,
temporarily, not permanently, temporarily, you can turn the curve around.
For those who get concerned about that -- look at the numbers. There have
been over 2,000 people died yesterday. They were 99,000 people with COVID-
19 in the hospital. There are between 100 and 200,000 new infections each
day. And there are 270,000 deaths. That's serious stuff.
So, when someone wants to temporarily close down a bar, that's not a bad
thing to do. What I think we should do is make sure we subsidize and
support the restaurant owners and the bar owners so that they don't suffer
because of the public health measures. But don't get those things confused,
it does help when you shutdown things that are clearly deceiving of the
virus.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: I think both things are true. We've got a very difficult
situation with a surge in a lot of places, and you got a very difficult
economic situation on the lot of these companies and tough times for these
schoolkids as well.
I got to leave it there, I'm sorry, we are out of time, Dr. Fauci. I hope
you'll come back. Thank you for being here tonight.
FAUCI: Good to be with you, thanks.
MACCALLUM: Thank you. So, the digital genius who shock the political
universe in 2016 by helping to get President Trump elected says that he
spot a clear path for victory for Republicans in 2024 and beyond.
Former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale details the strategy and part
two of my exclusive interview, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM (voice over): All right, here comes part two of my exclusive
interview with former Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale. We look ahead
to 2024 and beyond. He says Republicans still have a clear path to victory
in the future, specifically when it comes to increasing the share of
minority vote and overcoming all of these new challenges faced by mail-in
voting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM (on camera): Do you think there was massive fraud in this
election?
BRAD PARSCALE, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I can't tell you, because I
don't have the evidence. I watched the 60 Minutes thing whether there was,
it was the most secure election in the world. You know, whether there was
fraud. But I will tell you what. I would think there is some game of it.
And I think there's a thin line between gaming fraud and hacking.
Hacking is breaking in. Fraud is just talking about dead people. I think
there were some of that stuff. But there's also gaming. And gaming is all
of a sudden, I show up to 50,000 households the night after the election
backdated ballots and all of a sudden, they show up at the door.
Now some people call it fraud, I call it fraud. But Democrats are calling
it gaming maybe. Maybe somebody else won't. But the system is gamed. Why? I
can't, you know, in a country in 2020 find all election results in the same
night? I remember way back in 1984 we did. Why in 2020 we can't?
MACCALLUM: So, obviously COVID drove an enormous mail-in voting
transition. We've never had an election like the one we just had 41 percent
of the country voted by mail-in votes. The president cast a lot of concern
on the mail-in voting environment. And it -- the Biden team did exactly the
opposite.
Often from the basement, often even without campaigning just encouraging
people to vote by mail. How much of an impact was that and some people say
Republicans can never win in a mail-in environment if that's the way it's
going to go in the future?
PARSCALE: Well, I don't really think this was an election Trump lose by
this. It could be a Trump where's it's wet paper sack which I think find
these in some ways. But like, this is, this was --
MACCALLUM: Pretty chop to lose paper sack.
PARSCALE: I think it's a referendum. That's what I mean by that. Meaning,
it was a vote whether you want four more years of Trump or not. It was
anyone could have filled that spot, I think. I mean, there could have been
worse like Bernie Sanders who drew people off.
And what I mean by that is Trump -- Trump turned it into a referendum. And
the campaign turned into a referendum. And it should've been a choice
election. If this was a choice between Trump and Joe Biden, every poll we
may have chosen, and every data science says Trump wins.
And I think that it's hard to win when you know you have a referendum
against a silent killer like a virus. And I think this came down to COVID.
Who do you want to have handle COVID and where do you want the country to
go? And that's the only thing he was underwater really on.
MACCALLUM: Do you think though if we continue with mail-in voting in the
future that Republicans can win a presidential election?
PARSCALE: Of course, of course. Look, in the past, mail-in voting wasn't
an advantage to Republicans to a state like Florida.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
PARSCALE: Because our people tend to mail in more. I think this time the
president made a referendum and showing up versus the mail in. And they're
keeping referendums. How we do it and what we do. And look, he still got
the most votes -- you know, an amazing number of votes.
I mean, if you look at the swing states, I mean, he crushed it. And I still
think that there is some gaming in the system. But we will see if that ever
comes out. Who knows how long it will be?
MACCALLUM: What is next for you?
PARSCALE: Well, over the last four years I did invent a bunch of
technology that can automate all his campaigns. Almost like a salesforce
for business, that nothing exists in the world like it. I used all the
concepts and the things I've learned to build technology to automate the
entire campaign, the fund-raising apparatus, the data operation, the
coalitions of planning strategic data universe creation connected it all
with Republican Party staff.
What I'd like to do is get in a place where I can help Republicans across
the country make their campaigns easier to run, more automated. Maybe sit
on the backside instead of being on the front side. And really using that
knowledge of being a campaign manager literally for five years of my life,
the longest six years really.
That's all I did all day is campaign. I don't think no one has ever done
that for six years straight. And utilize the technology and history of my
commercial world mixed with my political world. And build a platform that
makes all of this went easier.
MACCALLUM: So, given that, what you talked a little bit about the increase
in black and Hispanic vote in the Republican side. Do you see a changing
demography in the country with the two parties right now?
PARSCALE: I mean, yes. First of all, it's always ever-changing, right?
Look, I think the Latino vote is moving towards the Republican Party. But I
think there's a man, woman issue -- have you see anything, if I've seen
anything from the 2014 data or the 2012 data as man of the Republican
Party, I see it a little lost here and here.
But overall, women have migrated to the, you know, which, I mean, now I'm
45 years old, I kind of understand. Women and men have different opinions
themselves and I think we need to start seeing ourselves as what's best for
our country together.
And I hope regardless if Trump wins, which I think he will, or if Biden
wins, that both of them start to work together again. I miss the 80s in
some ways, you know? Just putting space shuttles up there, you know what I
mean? Like Americana, let's do this together. I'm a child of the 80s and I
love that. And I just -- but I think -- I think the parties are -- you
know, they've both got a lot of work to do.
MACCALLUM: Do you think the president should run in 2024?
PARSCALE: I think win or lose, he should run again in 2024.
MACCALLUM: He can't if he wins this one.
PARSCALE: You didn't ask me. The question is if I wanted him to?
MACCALLUM: But do you think that if he ends up conceding this race or if
he ends up losing this race, you know, I think a lot of people feel like we
are at that point. But I understand that you feel like there is still a
vote. So, if that were the case, if he loses --
PARSCALE: Yes.
MACCALLUM: -- do you believe he should run in 2024?
PARSCALE: I'm not sure if that's what he should do, but I wish he would. I
think there's still a lot of story to be told. Do I hope he makes few
little tweaks? Yes. And if he wants to call me, I will tell him know what
those tweaks are. If he doesn't call me, I wish him the best of luck. I
think he's the best thing for this country and I'll be MAGA for life.
MACCALLUM: Thank you, Brad. Good to see you.
PARSCALE: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: Be well.
PARSCALE: All right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACCALLUM (voice over): All right. We're watching this situation as
developing in Staten Island, New York, where the crowd is growing as a
protest outside a restaurant who defied the COVID-19 orders is growing by
the hour. We're going to take you on the ground to see what's going on
there in the middle of all that, next. And we'll get reaction to that and
more from Mike Rowe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNKNOWN: This is Staten Island!
UNKNOWN: You can't ask dudes in Staten Island --
MACCALLUM (on camera): So that is the live scene right now in Staten
Island where they are very angry. big protest is growing larger by the
minute. They are outside of Mac's Public House, a bar on Staten Island.
Last night, the owner Mac was arrested. He was taken away in handcuffs for
defying Governor Cuomo's COVID-19 restrictions that ban indoor dining.
Here now, Mike Wrote, host of The Way I Heard It podcast, also a popular TV
producer of course and founder of the Mike Rowe Works Foundation. Mike,
good to have you here tonight. Thanks for being here.
MIKE ROWE, HOST, THE WAY I HEARD IT PODCAST: Thanks. Nice to be back.
MACCALLUM: So, you know, I'm watching the scene in Staten Island, you
know, so many restaurants have closed in New York. The bars have shut down.
And this bar owner is saying you know, I need my livelihood, I need to let
people in the door. He was arrested last night. Now the group is gathering
out there. What do you think about what's going on with all this?
ROWE: I think it's the tip of the iceberg. I was just talking to a friend
this morning and you know, I'm out here in the Bay Area. I've been more or
less sheltering in place in one of the most beautiful parts of the country.
MACCALLUM: Lucky you.
ROWE: I've got a nice house, and a nice neighborhood, a lot of my friends
out here are to the left of center. And something amazing is going on right
now. And you know, I think what's happening in Staten Island is sort of
indicative of the old expression, you know, you can forgive people for
being wrong or even for being stupid, but hypocrisy is a hard thing to get
over.
And it seems like, to me, even out here in this little bubble, everywhere
we look -- you know, that bit with Governor Newsom having dinner at the
French laundry. That's not a small thing. And it's impacting people. People
who would normally not say anything about it or shake their head and say
geez, what is going on.
When Nancy Pelosi gets her hair blown out after closing salons, that's bad
optics. And when Gavin Newsom goes to have a meal in a place after telling
people not to go have a meal in a place, that's bad.
MACCALLUM: Yes.
ROWE: And it's happening down in Santa Monica right now with the
supervisor but a block from where my office is. I got eight employees down
there. Like a lot of people, I'm trying to run a business in California.
And it's amazing, Martha. You know, H.P. is leaving today.
MACCALLUM: That's right.
ROWE: Joe Rogan left a couple months ago. People in -- I'm not telling you
anything new, but people are leaving and they are not just leaving because
of the unintended consequences of policies that don't suit them from a
business or economic standpoint. They are leaving because something feels
fundamentally wrong. And the level of hypocrisy is ranked, and its stinks
to high heaven.
MACCALLUM: Yes. They are leaving New York too. That's why we see so many
boarded-up buildings here on the streets in New York. It doesn't look
anything like it should.
The owner of Mac's bar is going to be on with Tucker Carlson tonight. I
just want to mention that. You know, this migration, people moving around
the country, I mean, that's something that you've encouraged all along,
Mike. You know, don't, you know, go ahead, pick up your stakes and go where
there's a better opportunity and perhaps a better work environment, right?
ROWE: Well, two generations ago you wouldn't have had to do that. It was
baked into the work ethic equation. You go to where the work is. And you
leave from where the work isn't.
MACCALLUM: Right.
ROWE: But you know, we give away about a million dollars a year through my
foundation for work ethic scholarships. And one of the things we struggle
to articulate is the importance of being able to move to go to where the
work is. And it's just heartbreaking --
MACCALLUM: Yes.
ROWE: -- how difficult it does to talk people into moving. But now, all of
a sudden --
MACCALLUM: They are ready.
ROWE: People are moving.
MACCALLUM: Mike, thank you so much. Great to have you with us tonight.
Mike Rowe. THE STORY continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Hope you join me this Sunday evening for our special coverage
of the Georgia Senate run-off debate. Republican Senator Kelly Loeffler
will go head to head with Democratic challenger Raphael Warnock at 6.45
p.m. Eastern. We'll take you through all of that.
That is THE STORY for this Wednesday, December 2nd. THE STORY continues as
always, so we'll see you back here tomorrow night at seven. Coming up next,
Tucker Carlson. Good night, everybody.
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