Dukakis: Trump tax cut was 'outrageous,' should be reversed

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Dukakis: Trump tax cut was 'outrageous,' should be reversed

Former Democratic presidential candidate weighs in on the state of the U.S. economy on 'Your World'

This is a rush transcript from “Your World with Neil Cavuto” November 23, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  So many vaccines, so little time, but we
want to kick things off with a count going on in Atlanta. And if at first
you don't succeed, recount and count again.

Right now, the developments on a fast-moving political picture that has an
increasing number of Republicans saying, enough already, Mr. President.
You're going to have to call it a day.

We will also be speaking with the Georgia secretary of state, Brad
Raffensperger, on the pressure he has been getting not from Democrats. Try
the president of the United States and fellow Republicans, including the
two running for Senate in that state.

So much going on. Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto, and this is YOUR
WORLD.

And what in the world is going on with these constant counts and recounts,
Atlanta, Georgia, the focus right now.

To Kristin Fisher at the White House on what they're trying to resolve --
Kristin.

KRISTIN FISHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Neil, right now, we're
really watching what's happening in Pennsylvania and Michigan, two states
which are considering certifying the election results today, which is
something that, of course, the Trump campaign has been fighting to stop.

But, over the weekend, they were dealt a nother blow by a federal judge who
dismissed a lawsuit, writing in part -- quote -- "One might expect that,
when seeking such a startling outcome, a plaintiff would come formidably
armed with compelling legal arguments and factual proof of rampant
corruption. That has not happened."

So, the Trump campaign is now appealing that decision. But the state's
Republican Senator Pat Toomey says the writing's on the wall, and he
believes the president has exhausted his options in Pennsylvania.

Also today, more than 100 former senior national security officials who
served in Republican administrations issued a statement urging the
president to concede.

And then there's this from former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who
over the weekend called the president's legal team a national
embarrassment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ):  Elections have consequences. And we
cannot continue to act as if something happened here that didn't happen.

You have an obligation to present the evidence. The evidence has not been
presented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER:  In total, the Trump campaign and its allies have lost more than
two dozen cases contesting the election. They have either lost these,
dismissed them, something of that nature.

But the fact of the matter remains that the Trump campaign could still
appeal some of these or there are still some of these cases ongoing.

But, Neil, I have reached out to multiple White House officials today
asking for comments on all the things that I just laid out in this live
shot, from Chris Christie's comments, to the new comments from Senator Pat
Toomey. And it really has been very quiet here at the White House.

They either haven't responded to me or they have directed me to the Trump
campaign. And it's also very notable that, today, Neil, President Trump has
not tweeted -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Oh, that's interesting.

All right, Kristin Fisher, thank you -- Kristin at the White House.

Jonathan Serrie in Atlanta right now, where they're looking at a third
Georgia count ahead of our talking to the Georgia secretary of state, maybe
some details about what's going on here -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN SERRIE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Yes, we are becoming experts at
ballot counting here in the Peach State. More on that in a moment.

First, Iowa Senator Joni Ernst is in Georgia today, campaigning for the
state's two Republican senators. This afternoon, she held a Defend the
Majority rally in Griffin, a small town just south of Atlanta, with Senator
David Perdue, while Senator Kelly Loeffler continues to quarantine as she
awaits additional COVID-19 test results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DAVID PERDUE (R-GA):  Where our seat, Kelly's and mine, will determine
the direction of our country for the next 50 to 100 years, you all. I'm not
going to overstate it, but that's the -- that's the turning point that we
are potentially at right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERRIE:  senators Perdue and Loeffler face January 5 run-offs against
Democratic challengers.

Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff are campaigning on the premise that winning
these two Georgia Senate seats will protect the Affordable Care Act and
help president-elect Joe Biden accomplish his agenda.

After a hand audit of ballots confirmed Joe Biden's narrow victory here in
Georgia, President Trump has requested a recount. It's his legal right to
do that, because he's within that half-of-a-percent margin. This will be a
machine count at taxpayer expense.

Republican state elections officials say allegations of widespread voter
fraud are without evidence and are dangerous, regardless of which party
they come from.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABRIEL STERLING, GEORGIA VOTING SYSTEM IMPLEMENTATION MANAGER:  The
undermining of the system, either whether it be by Stacey Abrams two years
ago or by Donald Trump's team today, without evidence, we can't buy into
it. There has to be evidence.

Everybody has due process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERRIE:  And Gabriel Sterling, who you saw there, said that he and other
elections officials have actually received threats from people apparently
upset over the outcome of the presidential race here in Georgia.

Police are investigating -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Jonathan Serrie, thank you very much in Atlanta.

With us now is Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state.

Secretary, thank you very much for taking the time.

Sir, as you know, a third vote now. What do you think of that?

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE:  Well, when a candidate
-- and when a candidate is within a half-percent, that's their right to ask
for a recount.

We will be bringing those ballots through our high-speed scanners. And we
will give you that result. We fully expect it will be very similar to the
first two results.

CAVUTO:  All right.

Now, in the second result from the first result, it showed about a 1,000-
vote narrowing in the gap, right?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Yes.

CAVUTO:  I mean, do you expect anything like that this time?

RAFFENSPERGER:  No.

When did the first audit, we found mistakes in three counties. And that
added over 1,000 votes for President Trump. And those were all added to his
totals now. That has all been accounted for. And so I think this one will
be very close to what we just have now.

So, I don't see much difference whatsoever. It'll be just run through the
scanners again, and we will get those results to the American people and to
both campaigns.

CAVUTO:  You know, you have been criticized, not by Democrats, Secretary,
but by Republicans, leading with the president of the United States and the
two Republican candidates, and indirectly the governor of Georgia, also a
Republican, that you mishandled this.

How do you answer that?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Well, we have had record registrations this year. We have
had record turnout. We had record absentee turnout. We had record in our 16
days of early voting, record turnout there, and then record voting on
Election Day, all things we have record numbers.

We have five million people that voted. Four years ago, it was about 4.1.
So, we have had that. And we also defeated a big issue we have been having
in Georgia was long lines on Election Day. This year, the average wait was
only two minutes in the afternoon.

And I posted that on my Facebook page when we saw how short it was. So, we
have actually had so many successes. We also stood up an online portal, for
the first time introduced photo I.D. for absentee balloting. Over 400,000
voters used that. So, it's very secure.

CAVUTO:  Do you think you would be encountering any of this grief,
Secretary, if there was a 12,000-vote right from the beginning in favor of
the president?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Well, I think that many of us on the Republican side, we
thought that our president would win in Georgia, and we thought that he
would win nationwide.

And when that didn't happen, some people just can't handle that fact of
what happened in Georgia. But, at the end of the day, the job of the state
Republican Party is to raise money and to turn out the vote. And that
didn't happen.

CAVUTO:  So, you think Donald Trump, no matter how many counts we go
through, still lost the state of Georgia?

RAFFENSPERGER:  I don't see how we could come to any other conclusion.

We told the campaign, if they find instances of voter fraud, we will check
it out. We have not seen widespread, systemic voter fraud that would
overturn the results of the people.

CAVUTO:  Now, the two Republican candidates for Senate and facing the run-
off election on January 5, they thought you should resign.

But I'm not quite clear why. What is it that they're saying you screwed up?

RAFFENSPERGER:  I think they were just bending to pressure that they're
getting from the presidential campaign. And they're concerned that his
supporters wouldn't come out to support them.

But it's really not a productive effort on their part. They need to get
focused and get at it, because these are two very well-financed Democratic
campaigns.

But my job, as secretary of state, is to make sure that we have fair,
accurate counting of the elections. And we're going to run our elections in
Georgia with integrity.

CAVUTO:  So, the charges that they have not been run with integrity, and
that you somehow let this malfeasance go by, whatever it was, how do you
answer all of that?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Well, we have -- well, some people have talked about our
no-excuse absentee voting, which has been around since 2005.

It has no photo I.D. But we brought in a portion of photo I.D. this year
with our online portal. But, also, we strengthened signature match. When
you make your paper application, we signature-match it. And when you then
send in your ballot, there's also signature match.

And we made sure that our election directors had the opportunity to get GBI
signature match training, so that we could have safe, secure processes. We
have checked that. And then we have run the election. And we have gotten
your results very quickly.

We are really proud of what we have done here in Georgia. Your election
directors have worked hard. We have 159 counties. They have really worked
hard, with all the obstacles of COVID, new voting machines. We have a
verifiable paper ballot trail.

We wouldn't be able to -- we would not be able to do audits if we wouldn't
have had this new paper ballot. And we are able to do a hand-count just to
answer the question about the accuracy of machines, because there were
these wild accusations, not supported in fact, just wild ruminations from
people outside of the state of Georgia.

CAVUTO:  Well, among those people is the president of the United States. He
has singled you out.

How do you feel about that?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Well, I understand that he's got 50 million Twitter --
Twitter followers, and I have about 50.

And so we...

(LAUGHTER)

RAFFENSPERGER:  I'm not going to do a lot of Twitter, because I'm not going
to win that war.

(LAUGHTER)

RAFFENSPERGER:  But, at the end of the day, it's not about that.

What it is about, we have a process, we have a law. I'm going to follow
law. I have never voted for a Democrat in my life. But that doesn't mean
that I would ever want to do something that was not filled with integrity.

We want to make sure that we follow the process, follow the law. I'm an
engineer, and I'm going to make sure that we have a process that works for
Georgia. I'm not putting my thumb on the scale. The people will decide this
election.

CAVUTO:  Secretary, there are a lot of people who are looking at the back-
and-forth and the intramural battle among Republicans as hurting the
Republican candidates for Senate in this run-off race.

Are you concerned about that?

RAFFENSPERGER:  I'm concerned.

But they have picked the battle. We're doing our job. And you don't need to
be picking on me. You don't need to be picking on the election directors.
Our election directors have been working really hard to make sure that we
have fair, honest elections.

If you don't like honest elections, then you have got the problem. We have
honest elections.

CAVUTO:  So, do you think the president, regardless of what happens in
Georgia, Secretary, and some of these other fights still raging in
Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, where the legal team is looking at
either recounts or throwing away ballots, do you think the president is
kind of at rope's end here, that he should concede this election to Joe
Biden?

RAFFENSPERGER:  Well, we have 50 states, and we have 49 that I have nothing
to handle. I have plenty on my plate with Georgia.

I'm focused on what happens in Georgia. What President Trump wants to do in
the other states, that's his business. At the end of the day, we're going
to make sure that we have fair, honest elections.

Integrity still matters here in Georgia.

CAVUTO:  Brad Raffensperger, thank you very much, the secretary of state of
the beautiful state of Georgia.

But it's not been a beautiful or peachy time for him or those around him,
as this count goes on and on and on, of course, the run-off election on
January 5, two Senate races at once.

Secretary, thank you very, very much.

RAFFENSPERGER:  Thank you, Neil.

CAVUTO:  All right, in the meantime, at the corner of Wall and Broad,
having nothing to do this, and everything to do with hope of still another
vaccine possibility, three or four, depending on what you're counting, the
Dow racing ahead 327 points. Across the board, we had significant gains.

And, in the meantime, we were just mentioning Donald Trump not wanting to
ease up on these campaign legal fights. But the guy who won, or says he won
-- and most agree he is on his way to becoming the next president of the
United States -- way too busy doing something else, forming a Cabinet.

He's almost halfway done -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, it is unusual.

President Trump, of course, became famous for announcing some Cabinet folks
were going via tweet. Didn't let them know directly. They would hear about
that.

The guy who is going to be the next president of the United States has been
announcing some of his biggest Cabinet appointments, again, via a tweet. Of
course, he's let them know about that ahead of time.

But Hillary Vaughn joins us now from Wilmington with some of those picks as
they stand right now.

Quite a few, Hillary.

(LAUGHTER)

HILLARY VAUGHN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Quite a few, Neil.

President-elect Joe Biden's Cabinet is filling up with a lot of familiar
faces. A lot of top roles on Biden's national security team are going to
Obama administration alumni, clearly an about-face from President Trump's
America first foreign policy.

Biden's pick for secretary of state, Antony Blinken, served as the second
in command at State as deputy secretary under the Obama/Biden
administration. Biden's appointee for head of Homeland Security, Alejandro
Mayorkas, is also an Obama alum and took the lead in implementing DACA.
Mayorkas is also the first Latino and immigrant to be nominated to the top
job at DHS.

Biden is also appointing the first woman to be the director of national
intelligence, Avril Haines. She worked as deputy CIA director under Obama.
The U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Linda Thomas-Greenfield, who's coming out
of retirement to take this job.

Biden's national security adviser will be Jake Sullivan, who served as
Hillary Clinton's deputy chief of staff while she was secretary of state
and was a key negotiator of the Iran nuclear deal.

Some progressives, though, are underwhelmed with president-elect Biden's
picks for his national security team, but they are thrilled with Biden's
decision to add a brand-new position to the National Security Council
focused on climate. For the first time in history, the NSC will have a
special presidential envoy for climate. Filling that role, former Secretary
of State John Kerry.

Biden took time to meet with mayors around the U.S. today, saying this is
not a one-off meeting between them. He wanted to get information on what
they need to handle a spike in COVID cases nationwide. And on his way into
the meeting this afternoon, he explained why he announced his foreign
policy picks first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION:  Do you expect Republicans to (OFF-MIKE) significant roadblocks
(OFF-MIKE) to your nominations?

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT:  Are you kidding me?

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION:  Why did you go with national security first?

BIDEN:  Because it's national security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUGHN:  And, Neil, we are getting new information who could be Biden's
Treasury secretary.

The Wall Street Journal reports that former Fed Chair Janet Yellen is his
pick for Treasury. And that is significant, because that would be the first
time that a woman has done that job. It's a role that's been filled by
white men for over two centuries -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Yes, it's certainly a different looking Cabinet.

Hillary Vaughn, thank you very, very much.

Without getting into the particulars of who the president-elect has chosen
for his Cabinet, but maybe the tone of that Cabinet, let's go to Michael
Dukakis. You remember him, the former Democratic presidential nominee in
1988, 87 years young right now.

That was as of Election Day, Governor?

FMR. GOV. MICHAEL DUKAKIS (D-MA):  Right. That's right, Neil, yes.

CAVUTO:  Belated happy...

DUKAKIS:  It was a good -- it was a good birthday present, I can tell you.

CAVUTO:  Belated happy birthday.

DUKAKIS:  Thank you. Thank you.

CAVUTO:  All right. So, I -- so, you were not for Donald Trump. I just want
to get that out of the way.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO:  So, Governor, without getting into the particulars of these
players here, some are saying it's a test of the incoming administration,
whether it will yield is too strong a word, Governor, but maybe be
influenced by the progressives in the party, who wanted a front-row seat.

Now, the labor secretary spot hasn't been chosen yet, but Bernie Sanders
was reportedly interested in that. Talk that Elizabeth Warren wants a
prominent role in that Cabinet.

Again, without those individual names, Governor, your thoughts on whether
this president-elect should populate that Cabinet in one way, shape, or
form with more, I guess, progressives?

What do you think?

DUKAKIS:  Well, I don't know who people are talking about when they're
talking about progressives.

I mean, I'm a progressive, I think. I'm -- grew -- I was born during the
New Deal, lived through the '50s, and I think was a relatively progressive
guy.

On the other hand, some people will tell -- tell you that, when it came to
certain things, I was pretty conservative. And I think that's true of most
of us, Neil. I mean, it's not -- it's -- this notion that you're in this
slot or that slot or some other slot, I think, is really nuts.

We want good people, solid people, people of integrity, people who
obviously have experience, which I think is a good thing. And this is going
to be a very well-balanced and pretty impressive administration, in my
judgment.

CAVUTO:  You say you're a progressive. And I don't mean to disparage Joe. I
mean, many times during the race and afterwards, I said you...

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO:  ... were chief progressive. You were very austere, very tight with
the money.

DUKAKIS:  Yes.

CAVUTO:  And I think, if you're a taxpayer, you value that.

I guess, part of the -- what I'm thinking here -- and Republicans are
hardly ones to lecture people on deficits. I get that. But, again, under
Democrat and Republican administrations alike, that's what's happened. The
deficits have gotten out of control. Debt has gotten out of control.

We're going to be talking to Sam Zell a little later on, who is very
worried about that.

Are you worried about that, that there comes a moment here we have to
address this, and the options aren't -- aren't wonderful?

DUKAKIS:  Yes, of course I'm concerned about it.

I mean, I had to listen to Donald Trump talk about what a fabulous guy he
was, and how he had created the best economy in the world, with a trillion-
dollar deficit and full employment. I mean, have you ever heard anything
quite like that?

OK, now we have got some serious problems, obviously, involving a very
serious public health problem and its impact. And that's going to have an
effect.

But I never could understand why anybody thought that a guy like Trump knew
what he was doing when it came to the economy, when he was at full
employment, running a deficit of a trillion dollars.

And, as you know, maybe it's my Greek heritage or the fact that Greek
immigrants, including my folks, are very tight when it comes to spending,
but I was always a guy who cared very deeply about our fiscal integrity.
And I think we have to, even though we, at least for the time being, are
going to have to do some serious stimulus to get the economy back on track.

But I'm quite optimistic about this whole situation, Neil. I mean, I think
once we get a vaccine, and people get out there and get vaccinated and so
forth, I think we're going to snap back pretty quickly.

CAVUTO:  All right, there are indications, looking at the economic numbers,
that's already happening. The president, of course, would counter a lot of
what you just said, Governor, about the pandemic really brought deficits
and debt to a whole new level.

But I'm just curious. The approach that the president-elect, Biden, is
taking to this is, in that environment that you say is kind of dicey -- I'm
just paraphrasing your remarks -- would you hike taxes on anyone, the rich,
the over $400,000 crowd, whatever? If things are so bad, should he hold off
on that?

DUKAKIS:  Not when there was a giveaway of an incredible amount of money to
the wealthiest people in the country under Trump. I mean, I think that can
be taken back, much of it, and should be. And I think Joe Biden wants to do
that.

Will Congress go along with it? Well, we will see. But I thought that tax
cut was outrageous.

CAVUTO:  So, when you hear that, raising those taxes and the corporate
rates from 21 to 28 percent, even bringing it back up to 28 percent, not to
the 35 percent it was at, Governor, as you know, there are many of these
companies who say, well, they won't be as competitive right now, and they
might not grow as much right now.

What do you say to that?

DUKAKIS:  Well, of course, we always hear that.

But the tax cut itself was outrageous, never should have been voted in the
first place. And we're going to need some of that money. And I think that's
a pretty place -- pretty good place to get it. Now...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO:  But for what? What would the money be used for?

(LAUGHTER)

DUKAKIS:  Well, among other things, paying our bills. And I think that's
important.

But I think one of the things you have to see...

CAVUTO:  But do you think it will go to paying the bills, Governor? Isn't
that the concern?

I mean, when you were in Massachusetts for 12 years, you had a balanced
budget year and year out. Touche to that, one of the few that was able to
maintain that discipline.

But the fact of the matter is, I mean, would that be enough? In other
words, the money gained from a tax cut, which is supposedly going into
other areas, not debt relief, not deficits, does that worry, no matter
who's doing it? In this case, it would be a Joe Biden.

DUKAKIS:  Not to take back what I thought was an outrageous tax cut that
benefit largely the wealthy. I don't -- I don't have a problem with that.
And I think we ought to do it.

But, at the same time, you got to do it carefully. You got to do it well.
Obviously, we want to come out of this current whatever it is in a way that
will get the country back on track as soon as possible and responsibly,
something which did not happen under Trump, and is one of the reasons why
we ended up with a deficit of a trillion dollars, while the economy was in
"relatively good shape" -- quote, unquote.

So, I think -- I think there can be some work done on that. And I think you
will probably see that under a Biden administration. On the other hand, you
have got to be careful, and you have got to handle it carefully. And I
think -- I think he will do that.

CAVUTO:  All right, we shall see. Time will tell, as they say, right?
That's a trite line.

But happy birthday, Governor, again.

DUKAKIS:  Thank you.

CAVUTO:  We will see how all of this transpires, 87 years young.

DUKAKIS:  Thank you so much.

CAVUTO:  Governor Michael Dukakis, beautiful state of Massachusetts.

All right, when we come back here, I told you about the vaccines. I told
you about the promise and all of that, but left out of that equation are
the lockdowns that are going on across the country right now, limits on how
many you can have over to your house for Thanksgiving.

But to force the issue, to force that, to see a police officer tap on your
door to count how many are in your house?

Some governors are proposing just that -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, how are they going to know how many you have at your
house for Thanksgiving, if it's fewer than 10 people, no more than six
people?

Well, the governor of Oregon has an idea. Your neighbors can snitch on you,
in fact, welcoming the idea -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY):  I believe that law enforcement officer violates
his or her constitutional duty. I don't consider them a law enforcement
officer, because you don't have the right to pick laws that you think you
will enforce and you don't enforce laws that you don't agree with, right?

That's not a law enforcement officer. That's a dictator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO:  All right, so that's Governor Cuomo his way of saying, even though
there are some Upstate police officers in New York who are saying, we're
not going to enforce a policy that says you limit the number of people at a
house, we're not going to tap on the door and start counting heads here.

But that does seem to be a popular trend among many governors who are
trying to crack down on this sort of thing, including Oregon's governor
Brown, Kate Brown, who has said that she is encouraging neighbors to call
police if they see that those next door are getting a little too crowded on
the Thanksgiving holiday.

Jim Trusty joins us right now, the federal prosecutor.

Jim, how enforceable is any of this?

JAMES TRUSTY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  Well, it's enforceable in the
short term, to the extent that you have law enforcement officers that are
willing to carry out Thanksgiving Day raids on households with seven
people.

So, you're already hearing a lot of resistance, proper resistance from
folks in Oregon, for instance, about the notion of actually enforcing these
laws.

Ultimately, I think a lot of it's unconstitutional. It's creating -- using
emergency powers to create executive orders that reach into people's homes,
the most sacred -- sacrosanct part of constitutional law when it comes to
privacy.

And what you have typically are state legislators with enabling legislation
that says, if you fail to obey an executive order, that's a misdemeanor.
Well, that's not the same as the legislature passing a law. It is carte
blanche to some degree for these governors.

But, ultimately, if it ever winds its way into court, I think these things
self-destruct pretty quickly.

CAVUTO:  Yes, that's what I wanted to know, because a lot of these
governors pushing this are saying they're breaking the law, but it's an
edict. It's an executive edict. It isn't the law, is it?

TRUSTY:  That's exactly right. I mean, it's an executive order.

And, somehow, we have gotten used to this concept of executives passing
essentially laws that carry even potential criminal penalties, even if
they're short-lived. Like, this one's supposed to be two weeks in Oregon,
before it gets extended.

Well, the courts that have started looking at this have not been too
friendly towards these governors. You have had actions in Wisconsin and
Michigan that overturned as an overreach some of these executive orders on
separation of powers grounds.

In federal court in Pennsylvania, you had one where it was basically turned
upside down on due process and equal protection laws, which call for the
state to take narrowly tailored enforcement actions when it comes to things
like emergencies. And having a whole state tune out with six people or less
is not exactly narrowly tailored.

CAVUTO:  All right, thank you very much, Jim. Crazy stuff, but these are
crazy times.

Jim Trusty, former prosecutor.

TRUSTY:  Right.

CAVUTO:  When we come back, the CDC already warned, don't travel, don't go
far. Certainly, don't fly. But people are traveling, they are flying. What
are the risks they're taking?

After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, million taking to the nation's airports this
Thanksgiving a week.

Jeff Flock seeing it up close and personal at Chicago's O'Hare
International Airport -- Jeff.

JEFF FLOCK, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK CORRESPONDENT:  You know, Neil, this is
how the CDC would like the Thanksgiving holiday to look in terms of the
airport. There's nobody in line right now. It's actually a slow Monday.

But the weekend, that was a different story. But, first, before we start
there, let's say what the CDC is saying. They say, if people travel by air
over the holiday, tragedy could happen.

CDC is recommending against travel during the Thanksgiving period. They say
one of your family members could end up being hospitalized and severely ill
and die. How did the traveling public respond to that? Well, on Sunday, a
pandemic record, over a million people through the TSA checkpoints,
1,047,000 people, a new record, still nowhere near a typical Sunday this
time of the year, but still a lot of people.

And the travelers that we talk to say they think they feel safe.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It feels honestly cleaner here than it does at like a
store or anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It's the safest place right now. I mean, they're very
strict on their COVID procedures. And it was time to get away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It's been one-and-a-half years we haven't seen her
and her family.

FLOCK:  Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  And we're taking precautions, as you see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You got to live your life, at the end of the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLOCK:  You know, people are not being stupid about this, I think, Neil.
When you go to the airport, people are doing as I am here, because it's
required here at O'Hare, as well as other airports. You have to have a mask
on. You need to socially distance. You need to be smart about it, wash your
hands, do all those things.

But if you do it, people seem to believe that they will be safe if they
move forward, not as many people as typical, but people seem to be willing
to take the risk and travel over the Thanksgiving holiday -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  And it could be risky, to your point.

Jeff Flock, thank you very, very much in Chicago.

The former acting CDC director on what those risks could be, not just to
the flyers, but who those flyers encounter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, the CDC could not be any more clear: Just don't travel.
Just don't go to another family's house, your own included, for
Thanksgiving. Keep it small. Keep it under 10, some states saying keep it
to no more than six.

Want to get the read on all of this from the former acting CDC Director Dr.
Richard Besser.

Doctor, good to have you back with us.

What's behind these guidelines? Because a lot of people still chafe at
them. And, given the fact that millions are traveling this week, they're
not going to pay attention to that. What do you think of all that?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND
PREVENTION:  Well, I sure wish, Neil, that the CDC had had a chance to have
a press conference and talk this through, so that there could be more
explanation as to why they're taking such a hard stance.

If you look at the heat map for COVID across the nation, it's pretty clear.
This is a raging pandemic right now. We're seeing so many hospitals at
capacity, and in particular in the Midwest, but rising across the nation.

And the big concern is that these family Thanksgiving gatherings --
Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, hands down. But these gatherings could
become super-spreader events, or, if not even super-spreader, spreader
events from relatives to elderly relatives, who could be at really high
risk.

CAVUTO:  So, do you get any sense, Doctor, looking at all of this, that
people are smart enough to sort of spread out in the house?

What are the risks, if they're doing what they would normally do if they
went to a restaurant, if they went inside a business, that this sort of
strong-arming, as many see it and are going to refuse to follow it, just
annoys them?

BESSER:  Yes.

Yes, it's -- strong-arming doesn't work. It's not a way for behavior
change. You have to capture people's hearts. And if you capture their
hearts, then behavior will follow.

We normally have 20 to 30 people at our house for Thanksgiving. And, this
year, we're going to have three. One of our sons got tested and could drive
here. So, he's here with us. Our other son, he canceled his air travel. And
my parents are both 90. They live about two miles from our house, and we're
going to drop food off at their house, because the risk is just too great.

This is the period. I have never been more optimistic and more pessimistic.
I'm optimistic because the vaccine data that are coming forward is
absolutely fantastic and lets me have a sense that we're going to reach the
end of this, that late spring, summer, we're going to see real changes.

But I'm pessimistic because people are just so tired of this.

CAVUTO:  Yes.

BESSER:  And it's understandable.

Nine months of having to change your life, not be able to do your things.
The holidays are here. You want to see people. You're -- everyone's been
hurting this year. You understand why people don't want to follow these
recommendations.

But if we can come together as a nation for a few more months, and buckle
down, we could save tens of thousands of lives. And one of those lives
could be your relative. That's how -- that's how you have to connect with
people on this.

But I understand people's frustration. Everyone is just sick of it.

CAVUTO:  Yes, they are, but food for thought on the whole meal thing.

See what I did there, Doctor? Food for thought.

Thanks.

BESSER:  Yes.

CAVUTO:  Anyway, that's basic stuff on cable.

All right, Doctor, very good seeing you again. Hope you have a safe and
healthy Thanksgiving.

Meanwhile, Sam Zell, you remember him, business titan, sees opportunities
in real estate everywhere, what's going on in the cities.

But Sam's here to talk about something very different. All this money we
want to spend on more stimulus, he has a simple question. Where is that
money?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, Sam Zell, a name you probably know, really invented the
real estate investment trust, you think about it, a mechanism by which you
could look at real estate investments and see the promise on the commercial
side, residential side.

It grew to expand into a host of other areas. So, he knows what he's doing
when it comes to money. And he's worried what's happening in Washington
right now, because, well, they're technically out of money. They have been
out of money for a long time, with deficits in the trillions of dollars and
debt approaching $30 trillion.

And he's concerned that, if we don't do something about that, we're in deep
doo-doo.

Sam Zell, Equity Group Investments' founder and chairman, with us right
now.

Sam, thank you for taking the time. Good to see you.

You're worried about this debt? What do you think the president-elect
should do about it?

SAM ZELL, FOUNDER AND CHAIRMAN, EQUITY GROUP INVESTMENTS:  Well, I think
that the real key is that he shouldn't ignore it.

It's one thing to stimulate in the era of a pandemic, but it requires an
adjustment once that pandemic is over. I think that more stimulus is
probably caught for now, nowhere near as much as been suggested.

But once we're through this, we have to make sure that we get debt
underlined. In the end, if we don't, then we jeopardize the reserve
currency status of the U.S. dollar, which would materially reduce our
standard of living.

CAVUTO:  But you think about it, Sam, you and I have talked for years,
decades about this exploding debt. And under Republican and Democratic
presidents, it just keeps exploding.

ZELL:  Yes.

CAVUTO:  And a lot of people say, well, then interest rates are very, very
low. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.

What do you say to that?

ZELL:  Well, I think there have been plenty of times in history where other
people have said, don't worry about it, and it comes back to catch them.

And, in the end that, for roughly 30 years, the average risk-free rate was
5.6 percent. If we had to pay 5.6 percent on our debt levels today, we
would be broke.

CAVUTO:  Right.

ZELL:  Maybe we're broke anyway, but that would accelerate the process.

CAVUTO:  What do you think would happen if we started paying off our debt,
paring down our deficits?

You think back to the Clinton administration, when we were starting to do
that, freed up a lot of money. I know that's part of what you're worried
about. We don't have much room because of -- with all we owe. But what do
you think would happen? What do you think the markets would do? What do you
think we would, as a people, do?

ZELL:  Well, paying off debt is also somewhat deflationary.

What we need is, we need significant growth that generates tax receipts to
the government that would allow us to pay off our debt. If our growth rate
was 6 percent, instead of 1.5 percent, we'd have a much better ability to
get our debt in line.

CAVUTO:  We might get back to those days. I don't know.

But I did want to pick your brain a little bit on what's going on in cities
and real estate in general, corporate real estate, that has been really
walloped. People don't want to go back into cities. There is concern that
it's not a safe place to be, not a good place to be. So, they're avoiding
it.

Are you worried for our nation's cities?

ZELL:  Not really.

I mean, this is just like every other dramatic change, where, all of a
sudden, the prognosticators predict the end of the world. We're social
animals. The reason we have created cities is because we appreciate the
urban life. Walking scores are still the governing factor.

And I think the population will come back and be very favorable to cities
as soon as this pandemic is over.

CAVUTO:  Sam, a lot of people are looking at the incoming Biden
administration and what it's going to do.

It does want to raise taxes, that is, the president-elect wants to raise
taxes on the $400,000-and-over crowd, the Sam Zell crowd, I might add, and
corporations should pay more in taxes. How do you feel about that?

ZELL:  Well, again, my answer to that is the same as before.

Our country is predicated or developed and built on growth. If we have
growth, then everybody can afford to pay more tax. If we focus too much on
redistribution, that artificially depresses growth. That ultimately
translates into the kinds of problems we have had.

CAVUTO:  Sam, the markets have been on a tear. The Dow isn't that far from
a record, the S&P, the Nasdaq in and out of record territory.

Do you like this market?

ZELL:  I like the fact that it's not going down.

(LAUGHTER)

ZELL:  But I think that the market -- the market has a little too much
froth in it.

CAVUTO:  Really?

ZELL:  there's a lot of speculation. There is a lot of $2 stocks that
become $6 stocks.

The fact that the entire up nature of the market since the beginning the
year has been limited to the FAANG stocks, that's not a healthy level of
diversity. And it's a diverse growing market that ultimately is what
triggers and promotes growth.

CAVUTO:  Sam, I know you don't like to talk about politics, but I look at
the economic side, if you will.

One of the things that's very clear in hearing some of the people that Joe
Biden has already announced for his Cabinet is, it's kind of back to where
we were before Donald Trump, rejoining the climate change accord, getting
more engaged in -- with our European neighbors, the -- stopping the trade
fights and all of that.

What do you think of that approach, to become the world citizen again? I'm
probably loosely defining what he's up to, but the approach he's taking vs.
Donald Trump?

ZELL:  Well, I have never been an advocate of not being a world citizen.

I have historically been very, very favorable to immigration, I think --
I'm an immigrant's kid. So there's a lot of things that occurred in the
Trump era that might not necessarily represent what I think.

I think bringing our country more in line with the rest of the world, I
think, is a positive thing. Bringing it too in line, which I think we were
at some point, has a lot of consequences.
'
I mean, I think that we -- to the Trump administration's credit, they have
taken on the China problem. Well, the China problem began when we allowed
them into the WTO without any commitment from them in 2002. It took until
2016 and the devastation of our manufacturing base before we came to grips
with it.

CAVUTO:  All right.

All right, we will watch closely what happens.

Sam, great catching up with you. Continued success.

ZELL:  Great.

CAVUTO:  Sam Zell calls them as he sees them.

By the way, real quickly, Michigan's election board has certified a victory
for Joe Biden, yet another setback for team Trump.

Here comes more FOX and "THE FIVE."

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