This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," June 28, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.
Coronavirus cases surged across the country, reflecting a dangerous new phase of the pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: What we're dealing with right now is community spread, the people are getting infected do not know they're infected, they're not symptomatic.
WALLACE: As the virus spikes in Sun Belt States, Texas and Florida closed bars and restrict restaurant dining to stop the surge. We'll discuss the move to scale back or pause re-openings with former CDC Director Tom Frieden.
Then --
(SHOUTING)
Growing calls to remove statues and monuments that many say celebrate racial injustice.
HAWK NEWSOME, BLACK LIVES MATTER, GREATER NEW YORK: If this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it.
WALLACE: We'll talk with Hawk Newsome, a leader of the Black Lives Matter movement, about the protests nationwide and get reaction from Congressman Eleanor Holmes Norton, who says it's time to move controversial statues to museums.
Plus, new polls show Joe Biden pulling away from Donald Trump in battleground states. We'll ask our Sunday panel what to make of Biden's big lead four months from Election Day.
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And hello again from FOX News in Washington.
There are new calls this weekend for Americans to embrace social distancing as coronavirus cases surge across the South and West. The virus now blame for 125,000 deaths, and more than 2 million infections.
And the White House Coronavirus Task Force, which until Friday had not held a briefing in two months, now says it's considering a new testing strategy.
In a moment, we'll talk with former CDC director, Dr. Tom Frieden.
But first, let's bring in David Spunt at the White House with the latest on efforts to contain the pandemic -- David.
DAVID SPUNT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, the president insists he has this pandemic under control despite the rising number of cases. Vice President Mike Pence has canceled upcoming campaign events this week because of those rising numbers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SPUNT: As infections continue to climb, parts of the Southern United States are beginning to close once again.
ERIC JOHNSON (D), DALLAS MAYOR: Wear a mask. This is the single most important thing that you can do to slow the spread of COVID-19.
SPUNT: Beaches in Miami-Dade County will be closed for the Fourth of July weekend as Florida COVID-19 cases rose by 9,500 yesterday, the largest daily increase since the virus came to the United States.
Arizona numbers are also surging.
DR. MATT HEINZ, TUCSON MEDICAL CENTER: It's going the wrong way and we're very close to overwhelming our hospitals in terms of the number of beds.
SPUNT: In Texas, another hot spot, the governor is ordering bar owners to once again turn off the lights.
The governors of New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey are requiring anyone traveling from those hot spots to quarantine for 14 days.
On Friday, the White House Coronavirus Task Force held a news conference for the first time in two months where the doctors onstage had a stern warning for restless Americans.
FAUCI: We are all in it together and the only way we're going to end it is by ending it together.
SPUNT: This as new video released by "The Washington Post" shows employees inside of Tulsa arena last week removing thousands of stickers placed by the arena management to establish social distance ahead of the president's first rally in months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SPUNT: A campaign official insists the campaign was in compliance with local guidelines and everyone who attended that rally, Chris, was provided with face masks and hand sanitizer -- Chris.
WALLACE: David Spunt reporting from the White House. David, thank you.
And joining us now, former CDC director, Dr. Tom Frieden.
Doctor, I want to start with the spread of the virus these past few weeks. There was, on Friday, more than 45,000 new cases, a new single day high for our country. And 13 states set record highs for the seven day average of new cases. But Vice President Pence said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have made truly remarkable progress in moving our nation forward. We've all seen the encouraging news as we open up America again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Doctor, are we making truly remarkable progress, and is that the right message to be sending to the nation at this moment?
DR. TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, there's no doubt we're doing more testing, our hospitals are better prepared, but there's also no doubt that the virus has the upper hand.
This virus is not going to go away on its own. We have to stop it and only we can do that by working together.
But we are all sick and tired of staying home, but you know what, the virus is not tired of making us sick. And what we're seeing, particularly in southern states, but in most parts of the U.S., is the virus increasing and in some states increasing explosively.
WALLACE: Let me drill down on that, how do you explain the new surge in cases, especially in the South and the West? Did some states, in those regions, did they open up too soon -- reopen too soon and without enough restrictions?
FRIEDEN: Well, Chris, as I said to you six weeks ago today, this is going to backfire. We're moving too fast.
If you open when cases are still increasing, as many states did, it's like leaning into a left hook. You're going to get hit hard and that's what's happening.
When we see Arizona, Texas, Florida, South Carolina, they are currently in a rapid upswing and sad to say, this is going to continue to get worse for weeks. Because the physical distancing that they're implementing now will only take effect -- you won't see it for another few weeks, so we are going to see a few more weeks of increases in all likelihood in several states.
Now, there's some comfort in the fact that it's younger people, but what starts in the young doesn't stay in the young. Younger people have parents, uncles, nephews, they go out to places to buy food and we are going to see increasing spread.
That's why the three Ws are so important, wear a mask, wash your hands or use sanitizer, and watch your distance. There's something everyone can do. We are really all in this together and if we work together we can help control the virus and get our economy back.
Public health and health issues are not getting in the way of our recovery, they are the route to our recovery.
WALLACE: Doctor, one of the arguments you hear is that the reason we are seeing a surge in new cases is because we are seeing a surge in more testing. Here's President Trump on that this week.
(BEGIN CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have more cases because we do the greatest testing. If we didn't do testing, we'd have no cases.
(END CLIP)
WALLACE: Is this surge a function of more testing, or is it a reflection of the fact that the virus is actually spreading?
FRIEDEN: As a doctor, scientist, an epidemiologist, I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that in most states where you're seeing an increase, it is a real increase. It is not more tests, it is more spread of the virus. And the one number to look at that's very important is the percent of tests that's positive.
The number of cases, that can vary some because we are only diagnosing 10, 20 percent of all cases. So the numbers you're seeing are just a reflection, a tip of the iceberg, of even more spread.
But where the numbers are increasing, you got Arizona with nearly one out of four tests positive and at the same time you are increasing the number of tests, I can tell you with absolute certainty that's explosive spread of coronavirus.
WALLACE: While we're seeing the number of cases explode, up 65 percent in the last two weeks, we are seeing the number of deaths actually drop 27 percent. How do you explain that?
FRIEDEN: There are a few things going on. First off, deaths will lag cases by about a month. It takes some time for someone to feel sick, get hospitalized and, unfortunately, die.
Second, the cases do appear to be in younger people now and the death rate is far, far, far lower in younger people than older. But as I said earlier, what starts in young adults, doesn't stay in young adults. So there may be a lag until we see cases. It's possible that older people are shielding themselves more and we are also getting better at caring for the disease at hospitals.
So the explosive spread isn't being followed yet by an explosive increase in deaths, but what we are seeing in some states already is a big increase in intensive care unit admissions and that's a sign that this is not benign, this is going to result in more deaths. We estimate in the next month we will see at least 15,000 more deaths in the U.S.
WALLACE: Meanwhile, this has all become even more of a political issue, as everything seems to be in this country. Seventy-six percent of Democrats say that they wear a mask all or most of the time, as compared to 53 percent of Republicans. And this week, 3,000 young supporters of the president packed a church in Arizona, as you can see on the screen here, almost none of them wearing masks.
Here was Vice President Pence.
(BEGIN CLIP)
PENCE: The freedom of speech and the right to peacefully assemble is enshrined in the Constitution of the United States. And even in a health crisis, the American people don't forfeit our constitutional rights.
(END CLIP)
WALLACE: I'm asking you this as the former head of the CDC, one of the leading public health experts in the country, as a matter of public health, not a matter of constitutional law, what do you think when you see hundreds, thousands of people close together indoors not wearing masks?
FRIEDEN: The science is clear, more people with less ventilation indoors with a high rate of coronavirus, not wearing masks, that is a formula for explosive spread of the virus.
WALLACE: Finally, President Trump continues to say that we are going to see a vaccine, his words, very soon. Perhaps by -- before the end of the year. What is the likelihood of that? Give us a reality check on one we can really begin to think about a vaccine.
FRIEDEN: Although we're seeing really encouraging progress, there's now evidence that people do get immunity, it may be protective, there are more than 100 vaccine candidates being evaluated, some of them are looking good in some preliminary studies. It's really hard to develop a vaccine because you have to make sure it's safe. There's already too much suspicion about vaccines, we can't cut any corners.
We have to make sure it's safe, it's effective, figure out the right dose, decide who's going to get it first, develop it, manufacture large quantities, get it out there, set up systems to track for bad reactions. This is not a quick fix, it's really important to do -- it's the single most important thing we can do to fight coronavirus and that's why it's so important we have to do it carefully. We can't cut any corners.
We may have it next year, but what having it means means (ph) a little different, it means that people are going to start to have availability for health care workers, for example, but we have to make sure it's safe and effective before we put it into people's arms.
WALLACE: Dr. Frieden, thank you. Thanks for your time. Always good to talk with you, sir.
FRIEDEN: Thank you.
WALLACE: Up next, the growing debate over how our nation should deal with race, both current problems and past symbols. We'll get two very different perspectives when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Protesters in American streets are calling for the country to address our racial tensions, both current inequities and contentious symbols of America's past. But how to do that is a key question.
For one perspective, let's begin with Hawk Newsome, head of Black Lives Matter, Greater New York.
Mr. Newsome, you created quite a stir this week when you spoke with my colleague Martha MacCallum. Let's take a look at what you said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAWK NEWSOME, BLACK LIVES MATTER, GREATER NEW YORK: If this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it, all right? And I could be speaking figuratively, I could be speaking literally. It's a matter of interpretation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Afterwards, President Trump tweeted his reaction to your statement.
This is treason, sedition, insurrection.
Question, sir, what you accomplish with rhetoric like that? How do you think that helps?
NEWSOME: Well, here's the thing: a lot of people don't understand how the streets or the people feel. I have an in-depth knowledge for this, I live in the Bronx, I live amongst the people.
So, it's not like I'm sitting here pushing a button or anyone can push that button. But if people keep seeing these images of their babies, of their relatives, of black people being killed, they keep dealing with financial inequality and inequity, and it reaches a point of frustration, then people lash out.
This is a matter of inevitability that people will lash out because they're feeling like they're backed into a corner.
WALLACE: But just two years ago, back in 2018, you gave a Ted Talk in which you preached nonviolence and talked about how during the riots in Baltimore over the death of Freddie Gray, you tried to stop the violence. I want to play clip of you from just two years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWSOME: Do you have love in your heart? Do you love your neighbor? Do you believe in the Bible, the Koran? Do you believe in your religious teachings? Because I guarantee you, all of them tell you to help your neighbor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: That man wouldn't have talked about working to burn down the system. What happened?
NEWSOME: Well, what you have to understand is overtime -- how about this? I'm not encouraging people to go out and hurt other people. That's not what I'm promoting.
What I'm talking about is systemic inequality. What I'm talking about is America treating crime as -- as something that needs to be handled with policing instead of defunding the police and looking at crime from the perspective that it's a health crisis.
The same way we looked at heroin addiction when it was only black people as tough on drugs, war on crime. We have -- and when it became white people, we looked at it as a public health crisis, as something that needs to be treated.
That's the way we need to look at crime, OK? You think about police. Over 80 percent of the calls are not violent felonies. Therefore, we should really look and see why police are being called.
Look at the causes of why people are committing crimes. They are desperate. They're poor. They're undereducated and they are left out to dry but this American system of government.
So if you want to decrease crime, you don't hire police to come in and arrest everybody and brutalize people. If you want to cure crime, then you must go to the source. You must invest in people, you must give people jobs.
You must make people employable. Places with the highest murder rates have the highest rates of unemployment.
So let's start talking about entrepreneurship programs in our communities. Let's start talking about schools that actually meet the needs of people. That's something we can do with the $100 billion --
WALLACE: Let me -- let me just --
NEWSOME: -- that this country spends on police.
WALLACE: But. Mr. Newsome, let me pick up on this. We're going to have Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton on next, who's been a leader in the civil rights movement for years. She's working in Congress right now to try to pass policing legislation.
She says if you want to see a statue removed, you don't tear it down. You go through the proper legal channels, whether it's Congress or the city council.
There has been a split in the civil rights movement, the African-American community for at least a half a century now between Malcolm X and by any means necessary on the one hand, and Martin Luther King and working through the system on the other.
Didn't MLK get a lot more done in a practical sense?
NEWSOME: I believe that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a brilliant strategist, especially in the form of media savvy. But what we have to understand is, black people do not trust politicians. They don't trust black -- they don't trust Democrats, they don't trust Republicans.
Black people also have a problem with the government overstepping its bounds. The biggest manifestation of that is policing.
So if you want to make government smaller, then you address police on that scale.
If you talk about the rift in the civil rights movement, our elders, a lot of them have been bought (ph) off by the Democratic establishment, right? And they pretty much go with the flow of the Democratic establishment. And what you have to understand is, 50 percent -- maybe sometime 60 percent of the people out there protesting are young white people, and you want to write them off and call them Antifa or this or that.
But you have corporate lawyers, you have Ivy League graduates who are out there protesting, right? Stop trying to vilify those who are out there fighting and try to understand why they're out there fighting.
They're fighting because the government has failed us. The government spends too much money on failing programs. The government is beholden to corporations, right?
Like you look at Wells Fargo and you stop me from going on a tangent. You look at Wells Fargo, right, and how they paid out a billion dollars in settlements for discriminatory practices but they got bailouts from Obama and they got bailouts from Trump during COVID.
You look at how this country is beholden to corporations and people feel betrayed.
WALLACE: Mr. Newsome, thank you.
NEWSOME: Yes.
WALLACE: I have a lot more I'd like to talk about, but we have only an hour today. Thank you. Thanks for joining us.
And now let's turn to Washington, D.C., Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, who I guess is kind of who Hawk Newsome was talking about, a member of the Democratic establishment, a politician. You just heard Mr. Newsom. What's your reaction?
REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: My reaction is I completely understand. I've been in the streets myself enough to understand that impatience. But you send people like me to the Congress of the United States to do something about it. And that's what we are doing now. You've never seen, I think, a reaction, at least from Democrats in the Congress, as quickly as you've seen after the George Floyd demonstrations. You saw a policing bill come forward. You -- you are beginning to see reactions or actions precisely brought on by people like your guests who are impatient and are saying, do something and so something quick, so much so that -- that the -- the --
WALLACE: But -- but, Congresswoman -- Congresswoman, let --
NORTON: Go ahead.
WALLACE: Excuse me. Let me -- let me just break in though because, you know, as I discussed with Mr. Newsome, there has been this split in tactics and strategy and viewpoints for more than half a century between the kind of Malcolm X, by any means necessary, and Martin Luther King.
You have done things your way, working through the system, but can understand how someone like Hawk Newsome or the tens of thousands of people in the street would say, wait a minute, you know, you -- you've been doing it your way and we have the death of George Floyd and a lot more police brutality. We have the economic inequities that he's talking about. We see how the coronavirus is hitting minority communities much harder than it is white communities. And maybe they conclude the Eleanor Holmes Norton way isn't working.
NORTON: Well, the Eleanor Holmes Norton way is sending some to Congress to do something about it. That's what Eleanor Holmes Norton is doing. You mentioned Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King. And before Malcolm X died, he was reconciled with Martin Luther King. The impatience in the streets is why we have the legislation that would pass, the policing act, in Congress last week. The people -- the streets have spoken to the people they send to Congress. And -- and that is how a democracy works. That's what we want to see.
WALLACE: But, Congresswoman -- but congressman use -- Congresswoman, you say this is how a democracy works. The fact is that Democrats in the Senate blocked the Republican bill because they said they were given no input in the House. Democrats passed a bill without any Republican input. The result of it is, it looks like both sides did the same thing and nothing is going to get past.
NORTON: Well, I -- I disagree. Since the Republicans have a bill, a policing bill in -- in the Congress -- I mean in the Senate, we've passed a bill in the House. What that leads to is people looking at those bills and getting together. Let them pass their bill. Just as we have passed our bills. Then there will be a conference. And we will decide --
WALLACE: But the Democrats -- it was the Democrats in the Senate who blocked the Republicans from passing their bill. So there is nothing to have a conference about.
NORTON: They -- they blocked it because the bill -- they -- they blocked it, that is to say, they would not agree to any part of it because it was a disgrace. It -- it -- it didn't even rise to the level of -- of a remedy. And, by the way, I'm not sure I would have blocked their bill. Perhaps their bill should have been exposed and voted and -- and put them on the record about their bill.
WALLACE: Ever since the death of George Floyd, President Trump has talked a great deal about law and order. And on Friday, he issued an executive order to -- to back up the protection of these historical statues on federal property. Here is the president this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're going to get tougher and tougher. And at some point there's going to be retribution, because there has to be. These people are vandals, but their agitators, but they're really -- they're terrorists in a sense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: You must know that millions of Americans agree with the president and don't want to see looting, don't want to see vandalism, even if they disagree with the salutes, don't want to see them taken down by a mob.
NORTON: And I agree on that score. That's why there's legislation pending to take down these -- these statues.
I have put a bill in to take down a statue of people took down before the bill could get through, the Albert Pike statue. He may have been the worst of them. He mutilated the bodies of Union soldiers and was forced to resign in disgrace by his own men.
We hope -- we -- we would hope that we would be given the opportunity to do this in regular order, because you have a Congress, at least in -- in the House of Representatives that is showing its willing to do it. But I don't -- I -- I don't misunderstand at all either your prior guests or people in the streets. I do not endorse vandalism as a way to deal with what we're seeing in the streets. That's what they sent people like me to Congress four.
WALLACE: Congresswoman Norton, we should also point out that the House, for the first time this week passed a bill that would make Washington, D.C., where you live, and I live, the 51st state. We are -- I promise you we'll have you back soon to talk about that and its chances of getting through the Senate, where Republicans say they oppose it, or to the White House, where the president says he opposes it.
But, Congresswoman, thank you so much. Thanks for talking with us. And, please, come back.
NORTON: My pleasure.
WALLACE: Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss Joe Biden's growing lead over President Trump in key swing states.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS WALLACE: Coming up, knew polls show Joe Biden leading in key battleground states and the president has noticed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The man can't speak. And he's going to be your president because some people don't love me may.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel what it will take for the president to turn things around, next.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, FOX HOST: What's at stake in this election as you compare and contrast and what is -- what are your top priority items for a second term?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I never did this before. I never slept over in Washington. I was in Washington, I think, 17 times. All of a sudden I'm president of the United States.
But I didn't know very many people in Washington. It wasn't my thing. I was from Manhattan, from New York. Now I know everybody. And I have great people in the administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: President Trump with Sean Hannity this week offering few specifics about his plans for a second term.
And it's time now for our Sunday group.
Marc Thiessen of the American Enterprise Institute, Fox News correspondent Gillian Turner, and Mo Elleithee, of Georgetown University's Institutes of Politics and Public Service.
Marc, the latest polls, and there are a number of them, show that -- that President Trump is trailing Joe Biden badly and that Biden's lead is growing.
Let's take a look at some of the numbers.
Nationally, Fox News has Biden up by 12 points. "The New York Times" has him leading by 14.
And then there's Florida, which is, I think we'd all agree, a must win for the president. Fox News has Biden up by 9, "The Times" has Biden leading by 6.
Marc, we all know a lot can change in four plus months, between now and the election, but why do you think -- I mean you're -- you -- you laugh at -- the president is trailing and, in fact, Biden's lead is growing. Why?
MARC THIESSEN, RESIDENT FELLOW, THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: It is. It's not good. It's not good for the president. And sometimes the president is his only worst enemy in fueling -- fueling these polls. But I -- before my friend Mo and some -- and my Democratic friends get too excited about these numbers, three reasons to -- the -- why the president might be in better shape than we think.
First -- first of all, as you said, Chris, four months to go. And if you think about what's happened over the last four months, we had the worst pandemic since 1918, the worst economic devastation since 1930 in the worst social unrest since the 1960s, all in four months. Four months is an eternity.
Second of all, Joe Biden's going to have to come out of his basement at some point. As you've pointed out, he -- he hasn't had a press conference in 87 days. He's going to have to debate Donald Trump. Donald Trump is going to be campaigning, not against a guy in his basement, but a real, live person who is prone to making a lot of gaffes on the -- on the stage.
WALLACE: Right.
THIESSEN: So he's going to have a real-live candidate.
But, most importantly, Chris, the economy is coming back a lot faster than anyone expected. We were supposed to have 8 million job losses in May. Instead, we got 2.5 million jobs created. Economists predict that we're going to have the same kind of job creation for the next four months.
WALLACE: OK.
THIESSEN: We could have 20 percent to 30 percent growth. And so Trump is going to be campaigning on a growing economy and he's going to ask voters, are you -- do you want to -- do you want to keep this going or do you want to risk it all. And that's going to be a -- a -- a -- a real question that people are going to have to grapple with.
WALLACE: So, Mo, I'm going to just turn it to you, how do you react to these polls and how do you react to Marc's theory of -- of how this whole race could -- could flip in the next four months?
MO ELLEITHEE, GEORGETOWN INSTITUTE OF POLITICS AND PUBLIC SERVICE: Well, Marc and I have agreed before and I suspect we'll agree again today. As he said, there are four months to go. Anything could happen. Democrats should not rest on these polls. There's a lot of intangibles, as we've seen over the past few months.
Having said that, you know, I think there are a lot of Republicans out there that which the president would actually go into a basement and stop going out there because every time he goes out there he makes it worse.
Look, just look at the -- just look at 2020 alone. There was all the controversy surrounding impeachment. There was the pandemic. There was all the racial unrest and protests in the streets after the -- the death of George Floyd. There's an economy that is struggling as a result of that. And now you -- you -- you keep seeing additional controversies swirling. Just this weekend the story about Russians putting a bounty on U.S. and British soldiers in the White House knowing and not doing anything about it. All of these things swirling together are creating a sense of chaos.
WALLACE: Let me -- let me just interrupt quickly to say that what -- the president says -- let me just interrupt to say, the president says that he was not briefed on that.
ELLEITHEE: Right. But the White House --
WALLACE: The Russia --
ELLEITHEE: Has not denied that someone in the White House has known about it. But -- but the bigger point here, of all of these things swirling around together, and creating a sense of chaos is exhausting to people. And when the president's behavior, which is erratic, it is all over the place, it is unsteady, most importantly, he is not projecting a sense of bringing people together and that he's got a steady hand at the wheel. All of that is not going to help him in his case to turn these poll numbers around.
WALLACE: All right.
Meanwhile, and one of the things I think we'll all agree is that Biden is not making many public appearances, but in one of them, relatively rare this week, the former vice president said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's like a child who can't believe this has happened to him. All his whining and self-pity. Well, this pandemic didn't happen to him, it happened to all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Gillian, is Biden hurting the president or is the president doing most of the damage to himself right now? And -- and how -- how it -- how possible is it for him to turn it around?
GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that the Democratic strategy, the DNC strategy, even Biden's campaign strategy up till now has really been to play it on defense. That's why we've seen him, quote/unquote, staying in the basement, that's why we've seen them doing far fewer events than he would during a normal campaign season. It's because so far he can afford to do that. His poll numbers are great, they're improving, but it doesn't mean that that's going to hold.
Kevin McCarthy, House minority leader, put it really well to Fox News a couple of days ago. He said that if the election, the general election, was scheduled for this coming week, Republicans would be very worried, President Trump would be very worried. But that as both Moe and Marc point out, in the next four months, this thing could literally flip-flop back and forth another 100 times. When we're looking at campaign time, the campaign election cycle, they're operating in an entirely different universe. Four months is an eternity. It's kind of like dog time. So really four months out it's pretty useless to start hypothesizing about where this is going to be four months from now. The best thing we can hope to do is start sussing (ph) out a trend line.
WALLACE: Right.
Marc, I want to bring up one last subject because I have to say this really surprised me.
Late Thursday night, around midnight, the Trump Justice Department filed a brief joining a number of state attorneys general in calling for the Supreme Court to overturn, to end Obamacare, which they wouldn't even take up until next October and wouldn't be decided before the election. So it's not like it's going to happen.
Meanwhile, right now, because of the pandemic and people losing jobs and losing their health insurance, a half million more people, since March, have signed up for Obamacare.
Does it make political sense -- I -- I understand why the president and Republicans don't like Obamacare, but does it make political sense at this point to double down on killing Obamacare?
THIESSEN: No, it doesn't. Trying to repeal Obamacare during a pandemic is not smart. But I do think that -- I mean part of the reason why they filed that brief, I don't think it was their own timing -- choice of timing. The -- this case is coming up in the fall and there are -- there are deadlines for filing certain briefs and getting things before the court. So I -- you know, this was a -- this is a timed process that is driven by the attorney general's lawsuit, which was filed in 2018 is now coming to fruition this fall, so they had to get the filing in. But, no, it's not good timing at all for the president.
WALLACE: Right.
THIESSEN: And the Democrats are going to demagogue it.
WALLACE: Well, let -- let me bring it up quickly, and I got a minute, Mo. Health care was, I think we'd all agree, the best issue for Democrats in 2018. And the president seemed to recognize that because he put out a tweet on Friday after the -- the blowback to the decision to -- to try to end Obamacare. Rather on Saturday. He sent this tweet out. I will always protect people with pre-existing conditions, always, always, always.
How effective is that in getting the president and Republicans off the hook on Obamacare?
ELLEITHEE: Yes, I don't think there are a lot of people out there that are going to look at that -- that tweet and say, whoo, OK, good, my -- my concerns are gone now.
Look, he's -- he hasn't learned anything from the past couple of election cycles, which is, Obamacare's becoming more and more popular, and Republicans have been talking about this for the past decade about repealing Obamacare and still have not coalesced around an alternative. As you said, Chris, we're in the middle of a pandemic. To, to go out there railing against Obamacare four months before an election, the middle of a pandemic with no alternative, that's political malfeasance.
TURNER: Also coming on the heels, Chris --
WALLACE: All right, panel, we have to take --
TURNER: Of two recent big decisions that kill the -- that have been hurtful to the president's agenda.
WALLACE: All right, we have to take a break here, but when we come back, new developments in the case against retired General Michael Flynn and new controversy over William Barr's performance as attorney general.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I'm very happy about General Flynn. He was treated horribly. He as treated very, very horribly by a group of very bad people.
GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN (RET.), FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It's a good thing for me. It's a good thing for my family. But it's really a great -- a boost of confidence for the American people in our justice system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Reaction this week from former -- or from President Trump and former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn to a ruling by the court of appeals that the case against Flynn should be dropped.
And we're back now with our panel.
Gillian, the question now is whether the full court of appeals will decide to hear this case as to whether or not the -- the Justice Department decision to drop the case should be honored. And the other question is whether or not the judge, who's actually handled the case, federal judge Emmett Sullivan, what he will do.
What are you hearing?
TURNER: Well, Judge Sullivan took the first step this week that many legal experts say is really the first step in dismissing the case, as he has now been ordered to do. He suspended the next upcoming hearing, which was slated for July 16th. So if we go with what the legal experts are saying, it looks like it's headed in that direction of formally dropping the case, dropping all criminal charges against Flynn.
A quick note on Flynn himself, Chris, President Trump says that Flynn has been treated unfairly by the media and by Democrats and by the intelligence community. The reality here is that General Flynn mistreated President Trump, his campaign and his administration during its very early, very sensitive days as it was trying to find its way in the White House and set up a brand-new administration when he lied for the vice president as both President Trump himself has admitted --
WALLACE: Right.
TURNER: As Vice President Mike Prince has -- has also admitted. So it's not just about mistreatment going one way here.
WALLACE: Then there's the case of Roger Stone, another confidant, former advisor to President Trump, where the Justice Department decided to seek a lighter sentence than the prosecutors in the case that got him convicted were seeking. The -- one of the former prosecutors in that case testified before Congress this week.
Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AARON ZELINSKY, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: The Department of Justice treated Roger Stone differently from everyone else. And I was told that the department cut Roger Stone a break because of his relationship to the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Marc, what do you think of how the Justice Department has handled both the Flynn and the Roger Stone cases?
THIESSEN: So everyone is accusing Bill Barr of politicizing the Justice Department. In fact, what he is doing is the opposite, he is depoliticizing the Justice Department because the Justice Department was politicized to begin with when he inherited it. As we saw from the Flynn case, as we saw from the Mueller probe, which we spent two years and $30 million chasing a conspiracy theory that the Trump campaign had colluded with Russia, none of it was true.
The Flynn interview should never have happened because the FBI had already concluded that Flynn had not conspired with Russia, had cleared him for an absence of derogatory information. So why would they interview him about his conversation with Russian Ambassador Kislyak, which we now know from Peter Strzok's notes, which were just revealed this week, that -- that FBI Director Comey told President Obama that conversation was completely legit. There was no Russia collusion conspiracy. There was no Logan Act violation and no one's ever been prosecuted for the Logan Act, yet they went ahead with it anyway.
This is the sign that there is a -- that there is a Justice Department that has been deeply corrupted over the previous eight years, politicized, and Attorney General Barr is trying to get rid of that politicization.
WALLACE: Mo, I want to bring you in. And I think Marc framed it pretty darn well, better than I was going to, is Bill Barr putting the politics into the Justice Department or taking it out?
ELLEITHEE: I don't think either of you will be surprised that -- that I lean the other way on this one.
Look, I think this is on attorney general, this is a Justice Department that has shown time and time again its willingness to give preferential treatment to the president. This is a president who promised he was going to drain the swamp. This was a president who promised that he was going to restore a sense of fairness in our -- in our justice system to -- for those who felt that there wasn't it, but he has shown time and time again that he's just making it swampier.
And it's -- and it surprises me that Bill Barr would play along with this because, based on his last tenure, that wasn't who he was. But since taking the -- assuming the role this time, he seems much more open, much more willing to -- to -- to play along with the president's political agenda and using the -- the Justice Department to further it. I think there are a lot of people out there that are going to be looking at this administration headed into the final months before this election and say, he promised to drain the swamp, so why is it that the president's allies and the president's friends are the ones who are getting all the breaks?
WALLACE: Gillian, I want to go back to a point that -- that Marc made about these -- these handwritten notes in the Flynn case because this week when the court of appeals rules that the case had to be dropped, and we've got them up here on the screen, some handwritten notes from, of all people, former FBI Agent Peter Strzok were released. You can see the scroll on the right, and we've tried to make -- decipher them on the left that show then- President Obama and Vice President Biden weighing in just before they left office in January of 2017. So this is after President Trump has been elected. And it appears that Biden is suggesting that Flynn may have violated the Logan Act, what, a 200-year-old acts that has never been prosecuted.
Now, Gillian, we should point out that the Biden campaign denies that Biden never said that and Strzok was not actually in the meeting, so he was taking notes from somebody's account of the meeting.
Having said that, the notes are kind of curious.
TURNER: They are. And I think that it is incumbent upon a whole lot of people now in the justice system to take a look at the broader context of those notes so that we understand exactly what they mean and why those officials who allegedly said those things said them, whether the campaign refutes it or not.
I think -- when I look at this, and I look at the facts of this case, Chris, I'm not looking at it through the lens of this political war, the broader political war that's being fought on Flynn's behalf, Republicans versus Democrats. It's been well established, I think, that the FBI did overreach when it came to investigating Flynn during the beginning of this. But that said, I look at this through the lens of somebody who used to do government policy for a living, a former public servant. And when it comes to public service, I believe that General Flynn really failed the Trump administration. He did not hold with upstand -- excuse me, uphold the highest level of ethics that's demanded of somebody who's the national security advisor of the United States. There was never a context or an environment in which it's OK to lie to the FBI or to lie to the vice president, whether they interview with the FBI and Flynn should have ever happened or not, as Marc said, is one thing, but he certainly did not have the prerogative to lie to them when it did happen.
WALLACE: All right, we're going to have to leave it there, panel.
It is interesting, though, because Vice President Biden's story about what he knew about the prosecution of Flynn has changed. First he said that he didn't know anything. Then he said, yes, he was in the meeting. Then you've got this note in which supposedly he brings a prosecution under the Logan Act. He says he didn't say that. To be continued as this campaign goes on.
Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.
Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." We'll talk to the man now in charge of the world's biggest museum complex about his plans to bring the vast collection into your home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Protesters in Washington have covered the temporary barriers outside the White House with pictures of black Americans who died in custody. Smithsonian curators took notice and are preserving some of those images to become part of the museum's vast collection.
This February, we spoke with the Smithsonian's new leader who says it's time to share America's treasure chest with the world.
Here's our "Power Player of the Week."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LONNIE BUNCH, SECRETARY OF THE SMITHSONIAN: It's kind of like buying a new car. I know how to drive. I know most of the buttons. Suddenly there are new buttons. So I am like a little kid discovering the Smithsonian every day.
WALLACE (voice over): Lonnie Bunch is talking about his new role of secretary of the Smithsonian.
BUNCH: There is no place that is as full of wonder as the Smithsonian.
WALLACE: He's the first African-American to lead the institution.
BUNCH: Most of my career I viewed myself as an outsider banging on the doors. And then one day I wake up and I'm the quintessential insider. And it meant that suddenly my presence could make a difference.
WALLACE: Bunch now oversees the world's biggest museum complex, 19 museums, nine research centers, and the National Zoo. One hundred and fifty-five million artifacts, iconic objects like the Space Shuttle Discovery, Abraham Lincoln's hat, and Henry, the 11 ton elephant, that welcomes visitors to the Museum of Natural History.
BUNCH: I'll find myself walking in the Gem Hall in Natural History and learning the stories behind the Hope Diamond, which I never knew.
WALLACE: Bunch has been a "Power Player" twice before. We first met him in 2012 when he was working to put together the National Museum of African- American History and Culture.
BUNCH: At 8:00 in the morning, I have the best job in America. And at 2:00 in the morning, it's the dumbest thing I've ever done.
WALLACE: In 2016, he gave us an insider tour just days before the museum finally open to the public.
BUNCH: I am humbled, emotional, in fact, I'm very emotional.
WALLACE: The museum has been a huge success. More than 6 million visitors since it opened.
BUNCH: What I love more than anything else is watching grandparents share their stories with their grandchildren. It really has become this source of intergenerational learning that I'm very proud of.
WALLACE: Bunch says that kind of family storytelling sparked his own love of history.
BUNCH: When I was a little kid, my grandfather would read to me. And I remember seeing pictures of sort of African-American schoolchildren. And I was fascinated by that. And I looked at those faces and I said, I want to know, what where their lives like? And I really felt that my job became a desire to sort of make visible those often invisible, and to give voice to the voiceless.
WALLACE: The museum's success led to his new job. Now that Lonnie Bunch is in charge of the whole Smithsonian, he wants to make sure the voiceless are heard around the world.
BUNCH: We'd like to reach a billion people. And we'd like to do that over the next decade.
WALLACE: So a billion people online can go and see America's treasure chest?
BUNCH: That's the goal. You know, as they say in Chicago, make no little plans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Smithsonian museums remain closed due to the coronavirus, but curators are hard at work collecting artifacts from the pandemic for future exhibits.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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