DeVos: We need to stop focusing on adults and focus on what kids need

close

Video

DeVos: We need to stop focusing on adults and focus on what kids need

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos addresses concerns over reopening schools on 'The Story.'

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 15, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: So good evening, everybody. I'm Martha MacCallum live here in New York City where things are starting to reopen.

This afternoon, though, in Georgia, the President laid out his plans for rebuilding America's infrastructure. In the Peach State, which is now a toss-up - it's a toss-up category, the President also warned again about the mail-in ballots, which is sure to be a big theme going forward.

Also, tonight, a new poll that shows that Pennsylvania voters believe that there is strong unspoken support for President Trump in their state, despite the top line poll numbers. We're going to show you those new numbers in our next segment when Ari Fleischer and Richard Goodstein join me in just a bit.

But first tonight, beyond the virus itself, there's another dynamic at play in the charged battle over returning to school. It's a COVID-19 laced election year showdown between school choice and teachers' unions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We're fighting for school choice, which really is the civil rights of all time in this country. Frankly, school choice is the civil rights statement of the year--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: And a big topic for the President lately. So right now, just as an example, a new study from the New York City Charter School Center shows that nearly 50,000 children right here in New York City and also in other cities around the country, there's lots of these kids, who are on waiting lists to get into charter schools. It's what they want, it's what their parents want.

But as you may know, the teachers' unions and the politicians that they support, are very against these new charters for a number of reasons. So Joe Biden has changed his view over the years on charter schools. Here he is just a few months back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I'm President, Betsy DeVos's whole notion from charter schools to this are gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: But in 1997, he said this. It is legitimate to ask what would happen to the public schools with increased competition from private schools. When the Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, was asked by Cardinal Dolan in a radio interview, whether she was trying to utilize the COVID crisis to bring more opportunity and choices to students, here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: Let's utilize this particular crisis to ensure that justice is finally done to our kids and the parents who choose to send them to faith based schools through agencies like these educational scholarship microgrants. That would be more long range. Am I correct in understanding what your what your agenda is?

BETSY DEVOS, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: Yes, absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: All right. So let's dig into that with the Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. Secretary, good to have you with us tonight. Thank you for being here. So--

DEVOS: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: And that's where I want to start. This, I think, is a big struggle that's going on underneath this whole COVID situation as we talk about schools reopening. Do you believe that this is a moment and that there's an opportunity here for parents to have a little more decision making and choice in terms of where they can go back?

If their school is closed, might they have the opportunity to use the taxpayer dollars allocated to their student to go somewhere else?

DEVOS: Well, Martha, we need education to rise to meet the occasion at every turn. And we know for a lot of students this spring, their experience in their assigned schools was less than ideal, less than optimal. A lot of kids who didn't even continue to have any learning opportunities presented to them.

We also know that parents have become frustrated. As we talk about schools reopening again, it seems to be centered more around adult needs and issues than it is about what's right for kids. And I hear, again, right here in suburban Washington, Fairfax County Schools are going out with a plan that would have kids in school a maximum of two days a week in-person and starting at 10:00 am.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

DEVOS: Now, what kind of family can orient their schedules around that kind of an - that kind of schedule--

MACCALLUM: OK. So--

DEVOS: And for kids themselves, it's just the wrong thing.

MACCALLUM: So what do you - what do they do? What do these parents do? Is there a way, as I asked, to take the money that is allocated to each student and allow them to use it to go to a charter school, to go to a Catholic school, to go to another school that is saying, "Yes, we're open come on in."

DEVOS: Well, every state has that opportunity and I urge every state to look seriously at expanding the choice programs they already have, or create new ones to meet the need of - needs of these families.

And from the federal level, we're looking at every option and every opportunity. We know there are families who have a crying need for something different for their children. They've seen their kids and their education up close and personal the last several months. And many of them realize for the first time that perhaps their kid learns very differently than they did - then that parent thought they did.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

DEVOS: And so giving - again, for more than 30 years, I've been talking about the need for parents to be in control of their kids' education, and to have a say in what that looks like. And this last several months has just brought that to a head in multiple ways.

MACCALLUM: Well, that - I think it's true. I mean, that there's a lot of schools, something like 56 percent of schools stopped even taking attendance online. And we know that there's a lot of kids, especially in urban areas who just didn't have what they needed. They didn't have the laptop, they didn't have the structure, in some cases, to be able to perform.

But I think a lot of people listen to what you're saying and they say, look, school is supposed to start in a few weeks. The parents need to get back to work. So in a - from a practical perspective it's great what you're talking about, but does that option exist for them right now? Can they say, I'm going to pull my kid out of the public school and send them to this Catholic school or this charter school with the money that is public?

DEVOS: Well, the public money has come through state choice programs and states are looking at increasing those programs. But practically speaking, from the federal level, what the federal government needs to do is first of all ensure that poor kids who are in these schools right now have the chance to continue going.

Most of them have been directly economically impacted, and there's a real risk of these schools having to shut down. That would be tragic for the kids that they're serving - that those schools serve and, would be tragic for America in general.

MACCALLUM: So I've spoken a couple times with Randi Weingarten and asked her what's going to be done to make up for the deficit, the learning loss that has already happened? Because if some of these kids lose three months of learning, how to read, how to do math, and then they lose more time this fall. And it just - it doesn't get discussed enough.

And I asked her, can they start early? Can they start August 1st? Or will they go through vacation breaks to make up this time? And basically what I heard was no, we don't have the money to do that. Here's what she had to say. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDI WEINGARTEN, AFT PRESIDENT: We need the money for PPE. We need the money for extra teachers. We need the money for extra cleaning and extra buses. But my members really want to be with their kids. They just want it to be safe for both kids and for themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: Do you believe that's true?

DEVOS: Well, certainly we all want school to be safe for kids. But the reality is, the science tells us that in - being in school is safe for children. There was just a study that came out from Germany on Monday that suggests that actually kids might even be stoppers of the virus. That it was over 2,000 kids studied and the virus did not spread, did not grow in any way.

The science says it is safe for kids to be in school. We clearly have to follow guidelines around hygiene, wearing masks when appropriate, and ensuring that teachers have distance and protection. But this can be done. It's a matter of will. And it's a convenient argument to make now when you - we don't use, say - you follow the science. Well, let's follow the science indeed. And let's ensure that kids can get back into school and that parents and families that need to have their kids in school five days a week have that option.

MACCALLUM: I mean, we're seeing school districts after school districts saying, we're going to do online learning. We know from the data that online learning was a failure. I mean, some kids in perfect circumstances, I'm sure, did fine. But, overall, remote learning has been a failure.

So how is it OK for the depart of education to look at what's going on in the country and say, OK, so all these districts decided that they're going to go online learning in the fall, and we're just going to have further fall back.

And a lot of people are looking to you to say, NO, that is not acceptable. That's not what the President wants. That's not what the administration wants. We are - we will provide a path for you to get back to school in six weeks. People say they don't have that path.

DEVOS: It is not acceptable for schools not to reopen. Education is an essential function. Schools are essential, teachers are essential, kids have got to get back in school. And this administration is going to continue to fight to expand choices and opportunities so that families who do want to choose a different option have the power to do that. We know that kids that are the most vulnerable--

MACCALLUM: But you said before - I know but, just let me say. You said before when I asked you what the federal government might provide in terms of a path for a parent who says no I want - I want them to go to this other school that - you kick back to the state.

So if I'm a parent who's saying what are my options? I want choice and my state doesn't provide it, my community doesn't provide it. The federal government, it sounds like, doesn't have any path for that parent either at this moment, is that correct?

DEVOS: Well, the Congress is about to consider another round of funding for schools, and they have a real opportunity to step up and answer these parents and these families that have a crying need to do something different for their children and with their children.

And there's a real opportunity for this and I expect that there's going to be leadership up on the Hill to do just that. The administration is advancing this. And we need to make sure that we are focused on doing what's right for every kid, because we know that those that are most vulnerable, those that are from families that are most fragile, the lowest income families are the ones that are going to be most deeply affected by the lack of focus on kids and their futures. And the focus instead on a narrative that is paying attention more to a system that that is indefensible in too many places.

MACCALLUM: I mean, we're going to turn into, I'm afraid, a desperate situation very soon as people want to get back to work, so everybody needs answers and needs that path at this point, which we hope - I hear that you are optimistic that perhaps Congress can do something to add money that would create that option in a very short period of time. We hope the wheels turn for this situation. Thank you very much, Secretary DeVos. It's good to have you here tonight.

DEVOS: Thanks. Thanks Martha.

MACCALLUM: You bet.

DEVOS: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So some internals in the Pennsylvania poll, that may be something to watch closely in this race. We'll show you what we mean right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: President Trump in the competitive 2020 State of Georgia today, laying out his plans to rebuild U.S. infrastructure. He hopes to dramatically cut the time that it takes to get infrastructure projects going by eliminating some red tape and some environmental regulations as well.

Georgia is now rated a toss-up state with Biden holding a two-point lead, according to the latest CBS battleground tracker. In another poll out of Pennsylvania where Biden holds a commanding lead, in the internals of that poll - this is this is interesting - 57 percent believe that there are secret voters in their communities who support Trump, but aren't telling the pollsters which way they lean. And then when asked do you think some of those voters exists for Biden as well - secret Biden supporters, only 27 percent said that they think the same is true of Biden.

So here now to sort this out and other things Ari Fleischer, former White House Press Secretary under President George W. Bush and a Fox News Contributor. And Richard Goodstein, former adviser to Bill and Hillary Clinton's campaign and Democratic strategist. Gentlemen, good to have both of you here today.

Richard Goodstein: Hello Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, Ari, if you're working in the Trump campaign, you're certainly hoping that that data is true. They claim that those secret supporters are out there. And they certainly were out there in 2016 and set everybody for a pretty big surprise. What do you think about this time around?

ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I think that's exactly right. And I think when you when you look at our culture today, and when you look at the price you can pay for wearing a MAGA hat, for going into a store with a Trump sign on, and the way you get attacked. You go to a restaurant to have a meal and you get thrown out of the restaurant.

People get used to this and they say, I'm just not going to talk about it anymore. And it's the intolerance that then makes people a hidden voter. So I do think that's a legitimate factor. It's very hard to say with precision what percentage of an electorate it is. But it is a reason for hope. For Donald Trump and for his campaign. They have to do better still, but that is a fact that's out there.

MACCALLUM: Yes. You know, just a short time ago, the police union endorsed President Trump. And Richard, that is typically a union that has supported Democratic candidates in the past. And I look at what's going on here in New York, police officers getting bashed over the head and bleeding. It's unbelievable what we're seeing.

And I think perhaps some of that, secret voter or whatever you want to call it, the dissatisfaction with what's going on in the streets may evolve, may become more of a factor. Do you think that's true or not?

RICHARD GOODSTEIN, FORMER ADVISER TO CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: Well, we'll see. And as you know, in the history of polling, no elected incumbent has ever been as far behind in the middle of July as Donald Trump is now. The Quinnipiac Poll today nationally had him down 15. The Monmouth Poll in Pennsylvania had him down 13. At this exact time four years ago Quinnipiac had him up two in Pennsylvania.

Look, and if you look at the generic ballot, Democrats are up nine. If you look at Right Track Wrong Direction, 75 percent of public says wrong direction. Satisfied, dissatisfied, the Gallup has been asking that question forever, 20 percent of the country says they're satisfied.

So the answer to, are there hidden Trump voters? You know, Donald Trump says there may be a miracle end to the coronavirus. Let's hope so. And I'm sure the Trump people have to hold on to the hope that there is a hidden Trump vote, because otherwise they'd give up hope. And Democrats are trumpatized--

MACCALLUM: Well, you know what, here's a--

GOODSTEIN: --what happened in 2016.

MACCALLUM: I think the Right Track Wrong Track is generally a good indicator. I think though, given this unbelievable combination of events that we have lived through in the past year, it's a little difficult to read into the meaning of that number at this point, and I guess we'll see.

I want to put up The Cook Political Report, because I thought this was an interesting visual. This is where they have the electoral college right now. And they have Joe Biden with the blue balls in his mason jar, up at that level, being able to hit 270.

And what they're demonstrating is that President Trump would need to win all of the states in his jar, plus all of the states in the middle including Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania - Maine isn't there, Arizona. He has to win all those in the middle, Ari, and then also pick up 11 of the lean Dem electoral votes that are in Biden's jar at this point. Do you - what do you think of that assessment?

FLEISCHER: Yes, I think that's about right. I think you look at all the public polling, Martha, the President has had a very difficult spring and into the summer. Now, what the President's team will tell you is their private polling, which is based on likely voters, not registered voters and not adults, but likely voters, is about much closer race, particularly in the battleground states. And I'm certain that's accurate as well.

MACCALLUM: Do you believe them?

FLEISCHER: Oh, yes, absolutely. Because when you look at any poll going back for decades, registered voters and adults tend to vote Democratic, likely voters tend to vote more to Republican. It's always been a pattern in polling for decades.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

FLEISCHER: So the question is going to be the intensity of the turnout, and I think there's going to be equal intensity. The President's vote is deeply, deeply intensive pro-Trump. But the anti-Trump vote is deep and intense, too. There's not much of an intense pro-Biden vote. It's an anti- Trump vote. And that's an important distinction and the vulnerability Biden has.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, the President had a good night in Alabama last night. The person that he supported after a really a three year bashing job of Jeff Sessions, his former Attorney General, did not win his Senate seat. Tommy Tuberville will be in that race against Doug Jones. So that's going to be one to watch.

Gentlemen, thank you. Richard Goodstein, Ari Fleischer.

GOODSTEIN: Thanks Martha.

MACCALLUM: Great to see you both. Take care, guys.

FLEISCHER: Thank you.

GOODSTEIN: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So Florida, Senator Marco Rubio on whether the state's surging virus numbers can be trusted after some of the labs have put out some dubious data. That and other things with him, coming up next with the Senator right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LILIAN ABBO, MD INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: Miami is now the epicenter of the pandemic. What we were seeing even more than six months ago, five months ago, now we are there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACCALLUM: So on the heels of a record high 132 daily deaths, there are reports that Miami-Dade County is now running out of ICU beds. Nearly 14 percent of people tested for the virus, positive. But there are questions about the accuracy of some of the numbers coming out of Florida after the Florida Department of Health confirmed some laboratories were not reporting any of their negative results to the state.

"The Palm Beach Post" reports quote, "Roughly 125 labs that have reported the results of between five and 460 tests said that 100 percent of the samples tested positive," which is obviously, "a statistical improbability," as they write, according to the state health officials.

Florida Senator Marco Rubio joins me now. Senator Rubio, always good to see you. Thank you for being here tonight.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA.: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So those two things first. Do you agree with the, side with the doctor who says that Florida is now like Wuhan in the beginning? And do you trust the numbers in your home state?

RUBIO: Well, it's not like Wuhan, because we don't know what Wuhan was like, because their numbers weren't real, and that's the first. And they were cooking numbers on purpose, trying to make it look better than it actually was.

Look, it's bad. I mean, we have a lot of infections, a lot of numbers. We see the numbers. We see the testing. I don't - I've talked repeatedly over the last four weeks with the administrator of the largest public health hospital here, the public sector hospital here. It's going to be a strain, but they are managing it as best they can. I don't think we're in that situation or even some of the things you saw in New York.

So, look, it's bad. It's not great. But I don't think we're anywhere - I don't think comparing us to Wuhan is probably a bit too far, given the fact that one was catastrophic. They had government - they had hospital overruns there. We don't have that here. And we don't know what Wuhan's real numbers were, because they didn't tell us.

So, on the first point about the tests. Yes, look, that doesn't mean the positives that they sent to the state, we're not positive, those numbers are real and those cases are real. What it would do, however, is influenced the positivity rate, right. The number of - if you have labs that are only forwarding the tests that are positive and not the ones that - the numbers or the ones that are negative, then obviously your positivity rate, which is what a lot of people are keeping an eye on, is going to be higher than it needs to.

MACCALLUM: Well, what do you think - well, first of all, I want to go back to the what you just said. Because that the report is that Miami-Dade is now at its max. They don't have any more ICU beds there. Then we're also hearing some reports of shortages and some places have PPE shortages and all of that. Is that what you're seeing? I mean, that's not good.

RUBIO: Well, - yes, so the PPE strain is real, simply because these things continue to be used. And by the way, about 40 percent of the patients that are hospitalized and identified as COVID patients may be there for an unrelated reason. That's good. They're not being treated for COVID. The bad news is though, you have to use PPE, you have to isolate them, it puts a strain on the staff.

So I'm not saying things are perfect here. They do have capacity to create new ICU unit beds, that they have the capacity to do. And, again, I talked to the mayor of the county today and the hospital, it is certainly going to be dicey. It's going to be tough. They're at their limits in many ways.

But they feel confident that even as they model out this thing's peak here in the next two to three weeks, but they have the resources to handle it as long as they have Remdesivir in sufficient quantities, and as long as we get those PPEs delivered, obviously.

MACCALLUM: I mean, I think probably everybody's seen the protest or heckling of Governor DeSantis. Early on he got so much attention for doing a good job. And now the numbers are going against him. What do you think happened? I mean, how did things get so bad in Florida?

RUBIO: Well, the heckler is a - is the President of the socialist club or whatever they call it down here. He's not a organic citizen that just walked in that was upset. This guy is a professional political operative who is working for Bernie Sanders not long ago so I'm not sure he's representative of anything other than socialism.

As far as what went wrong, if you look around the world any country -- any time or any community or any country in the world as their economy and people begin to go and interact with one another, you saw surging cases in Israel, in Japan and parts of Europe once again and it's going to be -- other places are going to face this as well because there's only so much locking down you can do before people are going to interact.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MARCO: A substantial portion of our cases are being driven by private gatherings within extended families and the like and government can't ban those. People need to wear their mask, people need to be more conscious of it, I believe they now are.

But remember, the hospitalizations we are seeing today are the infections that happened two or three weeks ago, and so hopefully if we can begin to correct that behavior now, we'll see improving numbers as we move forward into the next month.

MACCALLUM: So, the CDC is now -- the White House and the task force are saying that they want all the data sent directly to them, not to the CDC and of course that's raising some eyebrows about what, you know, how the White House will handle those numbers, why wouldn't those numbers go straight to the CDC, does not disturb you?

MARCO: Well, I'd like to know the reason why before I can tell you I'm disturbed by it. If the result of it is they want the numbers sent to them so they can quickly move Remdesivir to the right places, so they can quickly move resources to the right places --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MARCO: -- then that's good news. If it's for some other reason, then obviously, I will be disturbed by it. But ultimately, we had an issue here where we had a shortness of Remdesivir in some of our hospitals and we have an oversupply in other hospitals both in the state and throughout the country. So, we are going to find, so if that's designed to better improve that system then maybe it makes sense.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MARCO: But I don't know the rationale behind it.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I've got to go but I've got to ask you very quickly, Jacksonville Republican National Convention, will you attend and do you think it's wise to, you know, do an in-person convention?

MARCO: Yes, I plan to attend. Obviously, we'll wait and see what circumstances look like at that point but they're going to test everybody going in and out of the hall every single day, they are going to move events outdoors.

So, you know, if you're going to have an event where everyone is going to be tested before they go in, I think that's a pretty significant mitigation move and if we can do that in schools, we'd be able to open them up right away.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MARCO: But that's obviously not something we are capable of doing everywhere all the time right now.

MACCALLUM: Senator Rubio, always good to talk to you, sir. Thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.

MARCO: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, coming up, a live report on a violent attack on New York City police officer. Two police officers were killed. Do you see this guy just wielding this enormous pole down on his head? We are going to talk about that. No, they were not -- they were not killed, they were injured.

Plus, a father who says that a stray bullet flew through his home and landed right over his 6-year-old daughter's bed as violence in America spirals out of control, we'll talk to him coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: So maybe a minor turning point, perhaps, as we do start to see more and more marches in support of police. But at a prayer march which was designed for that reason, it turned ugly. The NYPD is releasing disturbing new video and images tonight on an incident on the Brooklyn Bridge where several officers, four of them were injured including the top ranking officer who was there, Terence Monahan as they clashed with the counter protesters there.

Correspondent Alex Hogan is on this story for us from city hall. Hi, Alex.

ALEX HOGAN, FOX NEWS NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Martha. Tensions escalating here and then spilling out onto the Brooklyn Bridge that you see here behind me, demonstrators classing with counter protesters, sending 37 people to jail and four officers to the hospital.

Video shows police surrounding one man on the Brooklyn Bridge as another man runs up behind them, hitting one on the head with what appears to be a cane or a pipe. The NYPD releasing bloody images of the injured officer.

Chief of department Terence Monahan suffering a head injury and two others required stitches. The NYPD tweeting that this is not peaceful protest and will not be tolerated but demonstrators say that the violence goes both ways.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

One of our occupiers went home with a gash in his head and is in the hospital. So, police escalate, they cause harm, they bring violence and then were worried about a scratch that a police officer has. So, it's just a contradiction, if we're going to talk about violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOGAN: New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio visited the Bronx today to help paint a new black lives matter mural and sign a package of police reform bills. The laws ban chokeholds and strengthen people's right to film officers.

But former Mayor Rudy Giuliani today on Fox urged de Blasio to build a better relationship with the police department.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI, R-N.Y.: They don't trust him. He's got to get their trust back. He has to tell them, look, I know you have to make tough decisions, I'll support you if you're right, I'm not just going to turn you over to the wolves. If you do something like what happened in Minneapolis, I'm going to see you go to jail for the rest of your life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOGAN: The mayor's press secretary released the statement today saying that while the mayor is continuing to work on helping improved that relationship between police and the community that any violence against officers like what we saw today is simply unacceptable. Martha?

MACCALLUM: Alex Hogan, thank you very much, Alex.

So, Rodney Miller says, that crime is out of control in his neighborhood. But it came too close to home recently when a stray bullet landed just above his daughter's bed. We'll hear his story. Then we'll be joined by Secretary Ben Carson on how we can get to the root of the violent crime surge across America, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: There have been 31 shooting victims in a span of just 48 hours in New York City this week. For my next guest it has hit too close to home. Stray bullets tore through his Harlem apartment over the Fourth of July weekend, one nearly hitting his 6-year-old daughter's bed. Fortunately, she was out of the house of the time but he said that it just struck him of what could have happened to her and the violence that exists right now.

In moments I'm going to talk to Ben Carson who is also here to dig in on this issue. But first, I'm joined by New York city resident Rodney Miller. Mr. Miller, thank you very much for being with me tonight. You know, when you looked at your home and you saw that a bullet had gone through three doors of your home and landed over your 6-year-old daughter's bed, what went through your mind, sir?

RODNEY MILLER, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Horror. It really threw me for a serious loop because you're in your own home, you know, your home, it's your home. It's where you eat, sleep, relax. Have family functions and the whole thing.

And when something of that magnitude happens in your home and you fear for your safety of your children and your own life as well. And being that people, I mean, it just blew me away. I was kind of angry too because this is ridiculous, it makes no sense, you know?

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MILLER: Thank God she wasn't home, you know, it could've been worse, her, you know, being there. And I look at the situation as like, this is totally nuts. My neighbor next door to me, her door had got shat up too as well. So, I was the only one when it happened too.

There was a car in front of my house, two, three cars in front of my house, the cars as well bullet holes as well. So, there were bullet holes all through the whole area of everything.

MACCALLUM: It's got to be --

(CROSSTALK)

MILLER: So, a number of people could have killed this Fourth of July.

MACCALLUM: I mean, it's got to be terrifying.

MILLER: Yes.

MACCALLUM: You know, I wonder, what do you think about what's going on in this city right now? You know, what does it say to you and who are these perpetrators and what is going through their minds when they are risking the lives, and in many cases, killing these young children?

MILLER: I see, I think they are more scared than people realize. I think this is more out of fear, I don't think they're like -- I think, most of them are young people, you know?

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MILLER: So, they have no -- they don't have no fear. They are more scared of themselves than they are of others, I think. And I think it's a thing where everything is kind of triggering through what's going on and one thing triggered another, another thing triggered another but that's not an excuse.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MILLER: You know, just because things are going your way or you're not happy whatever the situation, it doesn't give you the right to put a gun in your hand and take another person's life.

MACCALLUM: What about the police --

(CROSSTALK)

MILLER: And then in an aspect as well --

MACCALLUM: Before I let you go, I want to ask you what about the police and the relationship in the neighborhood with the people in the police right now, how is that?

MILLER: I grew up in South Jamaica Queens, I live in Harlem now, I've been here for almost five years and I see the situation never -- the situation is not been good because they don't trust them, they don't trust that the police department, the police department don't trust them too.

They don't interact with the neighborhood. They just drive by and that's about it. You know, if police (Ph) interacting with the neighborhood and seeing with these kids are doing, then I think it would be a better situation. Not going up to them and also saying yes, these kids are criminals.

A lot of them are just out there, you know, and they just, you know, they do what teenagers do.

MACCALLUM: Right.

MILLER: So, if they need to interact more with the community then I think it would be less of a problem of things like this happening.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MILLER: So, when they don't interact with the community, they don't know who is this and who is that because, you know, they just drive by, they don't interact with them whatsoever.

MACCALLUM: Mr. Miller, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

MILLER: I mean, I'm scared.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

MILLER: No problem.

MACCALLUM: I don't blame you for being scared, it's a terrifying time in the city and we're glad that your 6-year-old is OK and we hope everybody continues to stay safe --

MILLER: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: -- during these difficult times. Mr. Miller, thank you very much for being here tonight.

MILLER: Yes. You're welcome.

MACCALLUM: I'm now joined by Dr. Ben Carson who is secretary of Housing and Urban Development. Dr. Carson, when you listen to Mr. Miller and all the parents that we have heard from over the past couple of weeks, this is a very, very difficult situation. How do we find a remedy here?

BEN CARSON, SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT: Well, it is heartrending. When you see all the young children who've been murdered, quite frankly. And what's happening here is you have so many of these young men in particular who grew up in homes without a father figure and the first authority figure that they run into is the police or someone who is better than they are.

And, you know, they learn habits and things that really are not conducive to thinking about other people and thinking about the welfare of other people. And our society is breaking down in terms of the family values that you pass on, it's almost politically incorrect to talk about family values and about doing the right thing because then someone comes in and says, which family are you talking about? That's not right.

There was a congressperson last week who said that a lot of this violent hate behavior is induced by the fact that people are poor and people are hungry. Give me a break. You know, I grew up around a lot of poor and hungry people and they weren't like that.

So, we have to stop making excuses, take some personal responsibility, and we need to work with these young people. Your previous guest was right on target when he said that there should be more community policing.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

CARSON: Police should know the people in the community, they should know the police. I was talking to a police officer in Baltimore. He says he walks the same beat every single day, he knows everybody, everybody knows him --

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: It's so important.

CARSON: -- he says he never has to buy lunch because everybody is always inviting him in for lunch.

MACCALLUM: I bet they are.

CARSON: He knows when there is something going wrong.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

CARSON: Yes.

MACCALLUM: I want to ask you about a slightly different topic --

(CROSSTALK)

CARSON: It makes a big difference.

MACCALLUM: -- before I let you go. In Asheville, North Carolina, they have -- the city council has decided to begin a reparations process. It's not going to be to individuals but it is going to be to programs. And one of the council people there, Shanika Smith, said that the reason for this is because slavery is this institution that serves as the starting point for the building of the strong economic floor for white America while attempting to keep blacks subordinate forever to its progress.

That was one of her reasonings behind this program. Thought from you on that before we go?

CARSON: Well, I certainly don't have a problem with us helping people who are poor, people who find themselves in difficult circumstances, I don't know if it needs to be based on race. It needs to be based on circumstances.

You know, I believe in something called compassionate action. You know, we have always extended a hand to those who were down and out --

MACCALLUM: Yes.

CARSON: -- and there is no reason that we shouldn't continue to do that but we shouldn't divide people up into racial groups in order to do that.

MACCALLUM: Secretary Ben Carson, always good to have you here, sir. Thank you very much. Coming up tonight --

(CROSSTALK)

CARSON: Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM: -- thank you. Legendary football coach Lou Holtz on the calls to cancel the national anthem at sporting events and how about the sporting events themselves? After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MACCALLUM: At the end of World War II, NFL Commissioner Elmer Layden ordered the national anthem to be played at every football game. It's been a proud display of patriotism at stadiums large and small lever since. But now there are calls to cancel that tradition. An op-ed in the L.A. Times reads it's time to cancel (AUDIO GAP) that they say (AUDIO GAP).

Joining me now, legendary coach Lou Holtz, a member of the College Football Hall of Fame and a legend to everybody. Lou, great to see you tonight. You know, I guess with regards to the Star-Spangled Banner, tell us what it feels like as a coach to stand on the sidelines with your team when the national anthem is played at the beginning of a game.

LOU HOLTZ, FORMER COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACH: Well, it goes back to my first coach at William and Mary, but (Inaudible) the national anthem just absolutely inspired me. Most of our teams had to stay in the locker rooms before they played the national anthem but I just said this about cancel the national anthem, who are they? What have they done? What office have they won?

What in the world gets them the right other than the fact that they're going up there, there was never a valedictorian, everybody got a trophy, and everybody got everything they always wanted and now they decide they don't want the national anthem, tell me what in the world gives them the right to bring this up and to say that? We are having an election.

MACCALLUM: All right, that's a good point. I mean, you know, it just seems that this year everything is so upside down. And you know, obviously you're not going to hear the Star-Spangled Banner at a football game if there is no football and those decisions have not been made, finally, yet. There's still some hope that some of us have but it sounds like you think the outlook is pretty grim.

HOLTZ: I don't believe there's going to be college football this year unless somebody has the courage to step up and say, I am going to make this decision.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

HOLTZ: Young people think that they have COVID-19 just like cancer, it's a death threat. Over 100 college athletes have been tested for positive for COVID-19, not a single one of them has been put in the hospital. Yes, you are going to have them, the (Inaudible) have said if you're sick, go see a doctor.

But we are going to have it unless somebody has the leadership and be able to say, I look at things from both sides. A leader who look at from both sides. The player and the coaching side, where is right now they just look at it from a medical side we have one single case, we can't have it. Somebody has got the courage to step up and none of it going to happen. Once again, if you don't have colleges open, how in the world are you going to have a football team?

MACCALLUM: You know, you talk about the risk, I mean, there is risk in everything in life. Right?

HOLTZ: Well, there's a home of the free and the brave. I don't know how free we are, I'm (Inaudible) sure I'm very brave.

MACCALLUM: I mean, I'm just shaking my head. It's like, you know, you look at it and you look at the risk to young people as you say and it is very minimal. So, is this, is it because we are such a litigious society, is everyone afraid of getting sued? I mean, what's going on?

HOLTZ: Absolutely. Everybody is afraid, we have too many lawyers. I have two, other than my family as well. It's like there have been something like 30 deaths of people under 25 years of age, yet, the virus, the normal flu, we had like 156 deaths of people under 30.

Yes, this is dangerous for older people like me. If you have asthma, yes, that's a problem. But we just have to move on, we are shutting down a whole country, we are shutting sports, we are shutting down everything. And as you say, I can't believe I am in the United States. There isn't much united about the states.

MACCALLUM: You know, I mean, obviously there is a deep financial reason to play football.

HOLTZ: Yes.

MACCALLUM: It supports so many things in the university, I know Stanford is cutting a lot of programs because if they don't have football, they're not going to be able to pay for these other programs. Right?

HOLTZ: Absolutely. They say that a (AUDIO GAP) at every school will lose $60 million --

MACCALLUM: Wow.

HOLTZ: -- if they don't have football this year.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

HOLTZ: And as we know it anyway. And you'll remember, it's not just about football, it's about all the non-revenue sports, all the women's sports, everything else.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Absolutely.

HOLTZ: And college football and the fans and everything else that goes with it, the pageantry. We just need, we are trying to destroy everything that makes this country great.

MACCALLUM: Well, I'm going to have my -- you know, scarf and my Irish hat on no matter what. Lou, good to see you. Thank you very much.

That's the story of Wednesday, July 15, 2020. We'll see you back here tomorrow night, folks.

Content and Programming Copyright 2020 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.