Dem and GOP lawmakers call for dueling investigations

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Dem and GOP lawmakers call for dueling investigations

Are lawmakers distracting themselves from the real issues? Former CIA officer Bryan Dean Wright reacts.

This is a rush transcript from "Tucker Carlson Tonight," November 21, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARK STEYN, GUEST HOST: Good evening and welcome to "Tucker Carlson Tonight." I'm Mark Steyn in for Tucker this Thanksgiving Eve, but he will be making a special appearance later in the show.

But first, that migrant Caravan looming on the U.S.-Mexico border, 3,000 people are encamped in Tijuana. And the federal government says they could grow to a mass of 10,000 or more. A representative of the group, Angels Without Borders, say the migrants are considering something truly unbelievable, a human stampede, across the Southern border of the United States.

Meanwhile, a new Gallup poll shows that the percentage of Americans who view immigration as the country's top issue is surging rapidly. 21 percent of Americans say immigration is the top issue compared to 13 percent just a month ago.

Kris Kobach is Secretary of State for Kansas. He joins us now. Kris, what exactly is the difference between what they're planning, which is this human stampede and, what we used to call in the old days, an invasion.

KRIS KOBACH, KANSAS SECRETARY OF STATE: There - there's not a whole heck of a lot of difference. It is a massive influx of people. And Mark, one of the things that I think we need to consider right now is something that Congress wisely put in the federal law back in 1996.

It's not too often you use the word wisely when talking about Congress. But they actually planned ahead. And they said, in federal statute, if ever there is a mass influx of aliens at our border, the President has the authority, the Secretary of Homeland Security has the authority to call up state and local police to help repel this invasion or this influx.

And, right now, that's necessary because ICE agents and Border Patrol agents whom I've spoken to say they are overwhelmed. They don't have the manpower right now, and they need it, and they need it quick.

STEYN: And - and you make the point that that doesn't just mean that they can deputize local police departments in Southern California whose political bosses may not be keen on them enforcing--

KOBACH: Right.

STEYN: --federal immigration law but that in theory he can, the President actually has the authority to deputize Sheriff's deputies from Maine and New Hampshire to act on the Southern border.

KOBACH: That's exactly right. And - and this ties in with your point you made in the introduction, Mark, it is an issue of very high concern, the top issue for so many Americans.

I guarantee that if President Trump made a national - national appeal to Sheriff's departments across the country to say, "Can you come help us? We need the manpower. We'll reimburse your deputies for their time. Can you help us to repel this mass influx of people who are planning to rush our border?" I guarantee that there will be hundreds of Deputies, hundreds of Sheriff's departments saying, "Yes, we will help."

So, I think the time is now to use this power that has been given to the Executive Branch.

STEYN: Now, this is Thanksgiving, Kris. And we live in a very weird time because we're told the country's on orange alert. So, it takes you hours, if you're just flying home to see your grandmother, to get through the airport. The--

KOBACH: Yes.

STEYN: --Transport Security Administration has rules on the density of your pumpkin pie because if it's too moist, it counts as a liquid, so it has to be part of your checked baggage. That's what lawful Americans who are residing in this country entirely legally have to put up with.

But at the same time, as they're on orange alert, people can apparently just walk across the border with impunity. At some point--

KOBACH: Yes.

STEYN: --the public will get sick of the obvious contradiction in that. Won't they?

KOBACH: You know, Mark, I think they're already sick of the contradiction and you put it very well. And this - this group of migrants at the Southern border in the Tijuana area right now, they are, by all accounts, just a general mix of illegal aliens. They are not a mass of people who are fleeing oppression--

STEYN: Right.

KOBACH: --and they are particular candidates for asylum. They're going to rapidly find out that this - these - waiting for the asylum at adjudication is going to be a wait in vain. The vast majority, maybe 90 percent, will be denied.

And at some point, word will get out among these migrants, "Hey, you know what? We're not going to get asylum. Maybe we'll just do what we were planning on anyway, and that is either sneaking across the border or rushing the border," and that's where we need more manpower because they are undermanned right now on our side of the border.

STEYN: The other point you make, which is a great - everyone uses these cliches, we need comprehensive immigration reform. There are actually more immigration laws than any functioning society would need. There's actually more immigration law than immigration officers at border posts can understand.

They know very little of it themselves because it's too - there's too much of it. It's the fact that there's not the political will to enforce the both - the immigration laws, that's the issue.

KOBACH: Yes. That's it. We often hear this cop-out, "Oh, our immigration laws are broken." No, they're not broken. If you actually read them, Congress, over the many decades that we've had these laws, has inserted a lot of really good provisions in there that if we have the will to actually use them, we could reinforce our rule of law in this country.

STEYN: That's a - that's a good point, Kris. Happy Thanksgiving to you, Kris Kobach. Thank you very much.

KOBACH: You - you too, Happy Thanksgiving.

STEYN: Thank you.

President Trump is in a spat with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court today. Yesterday, the President blasted the perceived political motivations of a Federal Judge who blocked new rules on asylum seekers from being implemented.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This was an Obama judge. And I'll tell you what. It's not going to happen like this anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Well the President's remarks provoked a surprise rebuke from Chief Justice John Roberts who said in a statement, "We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them. That independent judiciary is something we should all be thankful for."

The President hit back on Twitter this afternoon saying, "Sorry Chief Justice John Roberts, but you do indeed have "Obama judges," and they have a much different point of view than the people who are charged with the safety of our country. It would be great if the 9th Circuit was indeed an "independent judiciary," but if it is, why are so many opposing views (on Border and Safety) cases filed there, and why are a vast number of those cases overturned? Please study the numbers, they are shocking. We need protection and security - these rulings are making our country unsafe! Very dangerous and unwise!"

Jonathan Turley is a professor at George Washington University Law School. He joins us. Professor, to take the Chief Justice's point at - at face value, if you did want to make a point that just - judges are above politics, why would the nation's Chief Judge essentially intervene in a provocative political manner in the way that John Roberts has?

JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Well Mark, in fairness to the Chief Justice, this is a very uncommon thing for him to do. It's virtually unheard of in modern times. He has basically held his tongue for two years. But he is the senior, you know, member of the judiciary.

And I felt that great sympathy towards him when he reacted today the way he did. I mean he feels that his mandate is to stand up for the judiciary. I don't think that the President was fair about the - this criticism.

The decision that - that he was referencing would have come out the same way, in my view, for both Republican and Democratic nominees. John Roberts himself voted to - to preserve the individual mandate of Obamacare.

I disagreed with his decision there. I thought that the reasoning was wrong. But I also understood that he was following what he thought was the dictates of the law, not the person who nominated him.

Now, where I - where I probably would criticize the Chief Justice a little bit is that I wish that he was more active in policing the court itself. You know, Justice Ginsburg, the late Justice Scalia, both were criticized for political or unwise statements--

STEYN: Right.

TURLEY: --made in commentary. And the Chief Justice has not been that proactive.

STEYN: But isn't the President making slightly a more of a basic point here, which is that you have Democrats and Republicans and they slog it out at election time, and one or other party wins.

And we're increasingly at a time now where, instead, whoever wins we have government by judges, in which judges essentially are micro-legislating aspects of particular policies in a way that would have been unrecognizable to judges and politicians of the late 18th Century.

TURLEY: Well, you know, Mark, I - I've criticized the Ninth Circuit for some of the decisions that they have handed down against the Administration. But I've never questioned the motivations of those judges.

Now, in fairness to President Trump, there is a difference in philosophy between a Trump appointee and, probably, an Obama appointee. They will, at some point, disagree on - on a philosophical basis how to view the Constitution.

In the vast majority of cases, there isn't that much disagreement. Most cases are unanimous even despite who people were appointed. I think what Chief Justice Roberts was trying to say is that it's unfair to this judiciary and we're very - we are blessed with a wonderful judiciary because people really do try to get things right.

STEYN: Right.

TURLEY: These are decent people trying to come to the right decision. People like me disagree with them on the sidelines but I don't think that it's because of ideology. It is because of their philosophical view of how to interpret the Constitution.

STEYN: Well, we'll - we'll - we'll take that up about the blessings of the judiciary at another time. Thank you - thank you, professor--

TURLEY: Thank you, Mark.

STEYN: --and a happy Thanksgiving to you.

TURLEY: You too, thanks.

STEYN: The - the Democrats say Ivanka Trump's private email use is no different from Hillary Clinton's. But does that comparison hold up? That's coming up next.

Plus, Tucker will be here to discuss a new book ridiculing the big tech oligarchs of Silicon Valley.

And an American traveler is dead after encountering the hostile natives of a mysterious island. We'll have the details coming up on TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEYN: It's a Probe-A-Palooza, a proborama, a probe, all you can probe-buffet Rather than legislate, both parties in Washington want to investigate the misdeeds of the other. With just a few weeks left of their majority, House Republicans want to hold hearings on the Clinton Foundation.

Meanwhile Democrats, now want a new investigation looking at Ivanka Trump's use of a private email to carry out government business. They want to equate Ivanka to Hillary Clinton and her private server. But the President says there's no comparison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Ivanka can handle herself. These are all in the historical records. There was no deletion whatsoever, unlike Hillary Clinton who deleted 33,000 emails. Unlike Hillary Clinton, who had a server in the basement, Ivanka didn't. This was just early on when she came in. These calls were not classified unlike Hillary Clinton's calls, which were classified. And it's all fake news.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: That was the President before his Thanksgiving break. Bryan Dean Wright is a Democrat and former CIA officer. Bryan, we have court houses legislating and we have legislators holding trials. Is this the best use of Congress?

BRYAN DEAN WRIGHT, FORMER CIA OPS OFFICER: Hah! We've got two years of this brother. I hope we're all ready. The short answer is no. Look, there is a small degree of oversight that is critical that both the Senate and the House do.

So, whether it's looking into the Hillary Clinton Foundation, the Bill and Hillary Clinton Foundation, all those shenanigans, let the Department of Justice wrap that up. You know, on the Ivanka side, let's make sure she didn't send any classified.

But at the end of the day, you know, how many people really care about Ivanka's emails, absent classified information? Not many. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say none.

You know, I'm in Northern Indiana. And I can guarantee you that the people in Fort Wayne, places like Huntington, aren't concerned with Ivanka's emails. It's just not the right way to govern because they're not interested in all that silliness.

What do they want? They want the Congress to focus on the stuff that they're supposed to focus on, jobs, healthcare, those are the things that America cares about.

STEYN: You're - you're not going to get anywhere on that though, are you, because basically the energy in the new Democrat Congress is for, well for a start, there's a lot of people who want to impeach the President. And if they can't impeach the President, they'd at least like to ensnare those around him, such as members of his family in tedious investigations for a couple of years.

WRIGHT: Sure. Look, we've - we've seen this, right, for the past 20-plus years what - what - really what has America experienced? One side trying to mess over the other with the hope that they can gain even greater power in the next election.

And I think what you have seen certainly in 2016 and a degree here in the last few weeks is people walking in to the - to the voting booth and using their middle finger to vote, and saying, "Enough. Let's get back to the business of governing."

And I think most people are so frustrated by the back-and-forth of not solving problems. Again, Huntington, I'll give you a great example. The - the Carrier Company shut down and has laid off a whole bunch of folks. Are they caring about Ivanka's emails? No, they're not.

They want good jobs. They want to solve this - this global trade issue where every things get shipped off to - to Mexico or to China. That's the stuff that people care about, good healthcare.

So, if people don't get the results they want, either from this last election where Democrats won or - or President Trump in his promises in 2016, parties are going to pay for it. Somebody's going to have to pay for it. And - and you watch, they will.

STEYN: Is there a serious structural problem here in that the Democrats, particularly, but you could make - you can make points about both sides on this, in effect, the criminalization of politics? So that if you have a particular approach to--

WRIGHT: Yes.

STEYN: --immigration or healthcare or whatever it is, it's - it's not just that you have a public policy difference is that in some sense you're a criminal and you have to be investigated?

WRIGHT: Right. Well, when you see the other side as evil that's when you start getting this investigative junk. And so, we have to change that with our own hearts. And definitely, when we go to the - the voting booths, we have to - to forward prospects of - of folks in the political system, who are more interested in solving problems and not seeing the other side as evil. I mean that's really what it comes down to.

STEYN: OK, Bryan, we'll - we'll wait and see whether they take you at your word for that. Thanks for that and have a good Thanksgiving.

WRIGHT: Sure. My pleasure

STEYN: The press says - says that election fraud never happens, but the facts keep contradicting them. Prosecutors in Los Angeles have charged nine people for a scheme where they allegedly bribed homeless people with cash and cigarettes in return for forging signatures on voter registration forms and ballot measure petitions.

Harmeet Dhillon is a Board Member of the Republican National Lawyers Association. She joins us. Harmeet, this is - this is the fraud that Democrats assure us doesn't exist. And yet--

HARMEET DHILLON, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL LAWYERS ASSOCIATION: That's--

STEYN: --here it comes again.

DHILLON: --that's right, Mark. This is the tip of the iceberg. In fact, these people who were arrested were part of a ring of people who were doing this over the last two election cycles. And it's a particularly cynical ploy.

The signature gatherers, who are the people here, in this case, they can get up to $12 a signature for signatures on petitions, which is what was happening here. And yet, they're paying these poor bums on Skid Row a buck or a cigarette in order to get them to forge signatures.

So, if you see this arrest happening in L.A. County, a Liberal county, you know for sure that it's happening all over the State of California. And it's just one of many examples I could give you of voter fraud happening in California.

STEYN: Well, there are some amazing examples. 75 people registered to vote at a non-existent address in Malibu. 31 people registered to vote at a Check Cashing Store in South Side L.A. 10 people registered to vote at a miniature mini golf course and say - I actually I'm in favor of the mini golf course. I think every - every - every bit to vote, you have to actually be living at a miniature golf course in San Diego.

DHILLON: Maybe they're miniature people, I don't know.

STEYN: That's right. Mini--

DHILLON: Could be

STEYN: --miniature voters in mini - miniature polling booths with miniature Dangling Chad's and Dimpled Chad's and all the rest of it. What's--

DHILLON: Yes.

STEYN: --what's the big - what's the big picture here that we - we have a bad, you know, we - we're getting a reputation for Jimmy Carter and the U.N. observers having to come in and supervise these elections, what's the - what's the systemic corruption? Where does that come from?

DHILLON: Well, let me give you one more figure in addition to the ones that you mentioned. In the year 2016 to 2017, in California, almost half a million people called for jury duty said they were not United States citizens. And now, that's very telling because the jury - because those - those rolls come from the voter registration.

So, you're talking about massive fraud here and, frankly, a - a combination of Democratic Secretaries of State who have no interest in purging the rolls contribute to this like in California. In some states, like Georgia, you have Secretaries of State who are following the law and purging the rolls and so you have better outcomes there, despite what - what the gubernatorial candidate there said.

And so, what Republicans need to do in the next election cycle is really be vigilant about this issue, and all Americans should be vigilant, because in any state people voting who don't have a right to or people signing papers who don't have a right to dilute the vote of every citizen, which is a very fundamental right to us in our country.

I'm an immigrant myself, Mark. And, to me, this is one of the most precious rights of our democracy, so we need to safeguard it better than we do.

STEYN: But you use the word vigilance, when - when people try to exercise vigilance at polling stations and in elections, the Democrats say they're racist and they're trying to suppress the vote. So--

DHILLON: You're absolutely right.

STEYN: --vigilance is racism, according to them.

DHILLON: Right. I mean, in fact, when we tried to do voter integrity efforts in the Republican Party, we've actually been sued by the Democrats and put on the sidelines for several years at the RNC, so that's definitely a significant issue.

But we have a Department of Justice right now and we do control the Executive Branch. The Department of Justice has an Election Division and they should actually be taking a look at this issue and bringing some federal indictments because, like I said, Skid Row, this is just one incident, and if you scratch the surface you're going to find a lot more, and it's - it's huge.

STEYN: Selling the votes of the homeless for 12 bucks a pop and, in return, giving them a free smoke. Wonderful--

DHILLON: Yes.

STEYN: --wonderful situation. Harmeet--

DHILLON: Yes, well

STEYN: --thank you. And have a great Thanksgiving as one immigrant to--

DHILLON: Thank you.

STEYN: --another.

DHILLON: Absolutely.

STEYN: President Trump is keeping Saudi Arabia as a U.S. ally, despite the murder that took place in a Consulate in Turkey. Is that the right move for America? That's ahead.

Plus, an American murdered with bows and arrows on a remote island. The chilling details, up next, on TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEYN: An American missionary has been killed while trying to contact an isolated tribe in the Indian Ocean in the Bay of Bengal. Ed Henry joins us with more details.

Ed?

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: Yes. It's really a remarkable story. It's playing out on North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal, about the size of Manhattan, home to the Sentinelese tribe which is small, about a dozen people, but they're fierce and resist any contact at all with the outside world.

Now, local and media reports have identified this American as John Allen Chau. We're told he went to India on a tourist visa. And last week, he paid several local fishermen to take him to this area that is part of the extremely remote end of Minh Island archipelago.

Once he got close to the island, he hopped into a kayak and moved closer to shore. Now, the fishermen told Indian police later that Chau was met by several members of this tribe. He offered them gifts, including a football, but then was shot at with bows and arrows by this group described online as the most dangerous tribe in the world.

He escaped the first time, swam back to the fishermen, but Chau apparently returned the next day and the fishermen later saw the tribesmen dragging his body along the beach.

Now, officials from India check on the locals from time to time, usually with a military helicopter. For example, that happened, as you see here, after the Indian Ocean tsunami in '04. Even then, members of the tribe reportedly fired arrows at the helicopter when they thought it got too close to them.

Tonight, the State Department has not yet officially confirmed the death of John Chau. He's been reported as being either 26 or 27. They're simply saying they're aware of these reports and are working with local authorities to try to get to the bottom of it.

But, it's interesting. These local people are protected under Indian law. And basically, any contact with them is considered illegal because of the risk of disease. So, getting justice for this American's death could get very complicated from a diplomatic standpoint, Mark.

STEYN: Yes. These are basically the least open borders society on earth.

HENRY: Yes, exactly

STEYN: They - they seriously protect their - their territorial frontiers

HENRY: It's a brutal murder.

STEYN: North Sentinel Island in the Andaman Islands chain.

Ed, thanks.

HENRY: Good to see you.

STEYN: Despite Saudi Arabia's - Ed is going to be back later, by the way. You won't want to miss that.

Despite Saudi Arabia's murder of Jamal Khashoggi, President Trump says he won't be turning against the country. Yesterday, the President was blunt about his reasoning. Being friendly with the Saudis is in the interests of the U.S. economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm not going to tell a country that's spending hundreds of billions of dollars and has helped me do one thing very importantly, keep oil prices down, so that they're not going to a $100 and a $150 a barrel. Right now, we have oil prices in great shape. I'm not going to destroy the world economy, and I'm not going to destroy the economy for our country by being foolish with Saudi Arabia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: The President continued down that path today tweeting "Oil prices getting lower. Great! Like a big Tax Cut for America and the World. Enjoy! $54, was just $82. Thank you to Saudi Arabia, but let's go lower!"

Nigel Farage is a former leader of the U.K. Independence Party and the driving force behind Brexit. He joins us from London.

Nigel, the Saudis, even though the highest level of leadership in the country was implicated in this murder, appear to have gotten away with it as far as the world is concerned.

NIGEL FARAGE, FORMER LEADER OF UKIP: Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I do understand that for both the USA and the U.K., Saudi Arabia's a very important market to us. Hundreds of thousands of jobs linked with selling aeroplanes and munitions.

I also get the strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia against Iran, you know, who've been trying to spread a very extreme form of Islamism right across the region. So, I understand the reasons for it.

But, imagine if any other country had behaved like this. Imagine if Russia had behaved like this, there'd be a much bigger international outcry. And my real problem, Mark, is that in the wake of the Syrian crisis, Saudi - Saudi Arabia did not take a single refugee or displaced person but were happy to fund the building of 200 mosques in Germany.

STEYN: Right.

FARAGE: And what we have seen - what we have seen is Wahhabism being spread using Saudi money. So, fine, let's go on doing trade, let's go on having strategic alliances, but let's not be frightened to be critical of some of the things that Saudi Arabia does.

STEYN: Yes. Saudi Arabia's principal export isn't oil. It's actually ideology and the oil just enables them to spread that ideology around the world. But basically, 15 Saudis killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11. Nothing really--

FARAGE: Yes.

STEYN: --well President Bush assured us the Saudis are our friends. We now have a Crown Prince who Senator Lindsey Graham and others say is patently unstable.

And like in your own Royal House, you're just a couple of miles from the Quarter St. James', they don't have strict primogeniture in the House of Saud. So, why couldn't we at least put pressure on Saudi Arabia to remove this guy as Crown Prince and have someone else as Crown Prince?

FARAGE: Well, yes, I mean, you know, MBS, as he's known, was sold to us as being this great reformer. The truth is that would appear not to be the case at all.

And one of the things that he does appear to have done is to pursue the very unpleasant war that is going on in Yemen. And maybe, for a moment, we should think that some of the bombs that we're selling to Saudi Arabia are actually being used by him in this war.

So, you're quite right. There are many other options for who effectively can be the Head of Saudi Arabia. You know, I understand what Trump's saying. I understand, in this country, Mrs. May's reluctance to be too critical. But we should be saying and doing more.

STEYN: And - and we should also be clear too that Khashoggi is being presented as a sort of hero of journalism. He's probably going to be Time Magazine's Man of the Year just because he is a dead so-called journalist.

But in fact, he was kind of a Deep State Saudi spook, who just happened to fall out with the Royal Family, in a sense it's - it's - it's different sets of bad guys we're arguing about, when we talk about--

FARAGE: Well, of course it is--

STEYN: --Saudi Arabia.

FARAGE: --of course, it is. But don't you think actually the truth is all through the Middle East, whether we look at Iraq or Libya or Syria, we keep on playing this game--

STEYN: Yes.

FARAGE: --of saying who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. And more often than not, we tend to get it wrong.

STEYN: It's - it's the old CIA line. He may be an SOB but he's our SOB.

FARAGE: Yes, exactly.

STEYN: It's actually the truth is the other He may be our SOB but he's still an SOB. Nigel, thank you and Happy Thanksgiving.

FARAGE: Thank you.

STEYN: I know they don't have it over there.

FARAGE: And you

STEYN: But have a - have a turkey on us--

FARAGE: I'll celebrate it.

STEYN: --turkey - thank you.

Tucker will be back. Pumpkin pie in London, don't want to think about that. Tucker is back after the break. He'll sit down with the Author of a new book ridiculing America's tech oligarchy. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TEXT: TECH TYRANNY.

STEYN: Technology companies are increasingly and overwhelmingly powerful. But laws aren't the only way to push back on them. Tucker just spoke to someone who's written a book mocking Silicon Valley. Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Power of big tech is not typically considered a laughing matter. A handful of big companies have destroyed a lot of people's privacy, threatened free speech and, in some cases, empowered China at the expense of the United States.

But even if Silicon Valley's power is a serious issue, perhaps getting the public to think about it in a more critical and amusing way might awaken them to the threat.

Jessica Powell is a former Head of Communications for Google. She wrote the book The Big Disruption. It's a novel. It satirizes Silicon Valley. She joins us tonight. Jessica, thanks very much for coming on.

JESSICA POWELL, FORMER HEAD OF COMMUNICATIONS AT GOOGLE: Thanks for having me.

CARLSON: There are not many satires about Silicon Valley. It seems like the most self-serious place maybe on the planet.

POWELL: We take ourselves very seriously.

CARLSON: Yes, because you're saving the world. It's not--

POWELL: Constantly.

CARLSON: --you're not just selling products, you're like--

POWELL: We're saving the world.

CARLSON: --improving human nature itself.

POWELL: Every moment of the day.

CARLSON: Do they believe that?

POWELL: I mean I think to a certain degree they really do. And I - and I do think there have been some incredible things that--

CARLSON: Yes, well I agree.

POWELL: --Silicon Valley has done, right? But I also think there's a certain level of hypocrisy and that we go out saying that we're doing all these wonderful things and we don't always think ahead about the potential, you know, the unintended consequences of what we build.

CARLSON: I wonder if like Edsel Ford ever thought that like I've got a new car but this is - it's more like a religious movement than a car. I mean this is actually kind of like the - this new vehicle will - will give you eternal life like I don't think they ever convince themselves with that in other industries.

POWELL: Yes. And, you know, why, I was really interested in writing the book because I feel like on the one hand when you're in these companies, there's a lot of kind of almost Kool-Aid drinking and sort of delusional--

CARLSON: Yes.

POWELL: --we're wonderful. We're wonderful. And then on the outside, you have a really, really critical tech stealing all our jobs, techs, you know, stealing all of our data, and I think the truth is somewhere in between the two.

And so, I wanted to do something as someone who's part of the industry and likes the industry, but thinks we can do better, I wanted to do something that people could actually connect with, rather than just write off as, "Oh, the Luddites are criticizing this again."

CARLSON: Right. Right, no. And is that their view?

POWELL: I think there is generally a view that when people, particularly people who aren't engineers, who don't understand technology, when they come in criticizing you, they're just not sufficiently living in the future, thinking far enough ahead, you know.

CARLSON: We used to call that hubris. I don't know what we call it now.

POWELL: Innovations.

CARLSON: Innovation. So what - because I was about to say there are so few novels in this genre, I think you may be the only occupant of this genre, what's been - and you had a real job. I mean you were the Chief Spokesman for Google, so what's the response been like to you?

POWELL: I mean I've had a lot of really positive emails from people within Google and from across the industry. The typical email tends to go, I'm laughing a lot, I'm cringing a lot, and I've been told there's a lot of conversations happening in the micro kitchens.

CARLSON: Well God bless you for starting those conversations. I always wonder, as I watch these companies grow ever larger, if anyone within them thinks what people used to think, which is, concentrations of power at this level are inherently dangerous to everybody. You shouldn't have this small a number of people with this much power, they're going to misuse it, do they think that?

POWELL: You know, I - I think on some level, they understand that. But I - I do think that on the whole, because everyone thinks that they're doing such good work, they think that the whether it's the means justify the ends or they - they constantly are looking at what they're building and not looking at some of the negative consequences, I think one of the other real problems is that there's such a monoculture of thought--

CARLSON: Yes.

POWELL: --and such a focus on data all the time that if, for example, you have 2 billion users, and let's say a couple bad things happen, I don't know, some live stream suicide, some electoral interference, whatever it might be, you say, "Oh, that's a small percentage of our 2 billion users."

Well a small percentage, say 0.1 percent, 0.01 percent of 2 billion, that's a lot of electoral interference. That's a lot of ethnic cleansing--

CARLSON: That's a good - good point.

POWELL: --in Myanmar, right?

CARLSON: So, I guess that raise my last question, which is the most obvious of all, and you could answer this as a novelist, should engineers be in charge of our society?

POWELL: I - I love engineers. I think engineers are incredible. And I think some of the stuff coming out of the Valley is incredible. But I think you need more people at the table. I think you need more people that represent the outside world and not just a whole bunch of people that live in one geographic part of the world, making decisions that affect everyone else.

CARLSON: I hope they take your criticism seriously because it's obviously meant in good faith and formulated with deep knowledge of the topic. And so, I hope they listen to you. Thank you--

POWELL: Thank you.

CARLSON: --very much.

POWELL: Thanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Live stream suicides of a small percentage of our users, that's a great sentence.

It's time for Final Exam. Can you do better than the experts at remembering the week's news? That's coming up next on the pre-Thanksgiving Edition of TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TEXT: FINAL EXAM.

STEYN: Oh, you know what that music means. It's time for Final Exam where we test the experts on their knowledge of the past week's news. Fox Chief National Correspondent Ed Henry is this week's defending champion. We're running out of sacrificial victims to toss into the great--

HENRY: This will be easy.

STEYN: --churning volcano of his ambition. But we have managed to produce Tammy Bruce.

TAMMY BRUCE, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S VOICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm ready.

STEYN: And if - if Tammy loses tonight, the penalty will be that she has to guest host Friday's show. She doesn't want to do that.

BRUCE: I - I will change that, by the way.

STEYN: She - she doesn't - she - she's terrified of having to surrender OK--

HENRY: Yes. She has done nothing but intimidate me since I sat down. She's --

BRUCE: I'm ready for Friday already.

HENRY: --did all these items --

BRUCE: I'm ready.

STEYN: Yes. OK. Well--

HENRY: She said she's going to make quick work of me.

STEYN: Yes.

HENRY: She said I use this hand because I - I fire my gun with this hand, so--

STEYN: Yes --

HENRY: --she's got me nervous.

BRUCE: I'm ambidextrous. This is - this is the aggressive hand. I'm ready.

STEYN: OK. Aggressive hands on buzzers. I'm going to ask the questions. The first one to buzz in gets to answer. But you must wait until I finish asking the question. You can answer once I acknowledge you by saying your name.

BRUCE: Oh.

STEYN: It's very particular now. This is all the International Quiz Show Convention in Geneva. This is all entirely compatible --

HENRY: Geneva.

STEYN: Each correct answer is worth one point. You get it wrong you lose a point, and the best of five wins. Let's get started.

Question one, in honor of Thanksgiving, President Trump yesterday continued the tradition of the Turkey Pardon. The birds this year are both named after vegetables. One turkey is named Peas. What is the name of the other bird?

(BUZZER SOUND)

BRUCE: Yes.

STEYN: It's - whoa, that's too aggressive.

HENRY: She's aggressive

STEYN: Tammy.

BRUCE: I'm Italian and Scottish.

STEYN: OK.

BRUCE: Carrots.

STEYN: Let us see whether that is right. Is the other Turkey called Carrots?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Even though Peas and Carrots have received a Presidential pardon, I have warned them that House Democrats are likely to issue them both subpoenas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Yes. I think - I think he should have rechristened them Manafort and Papadopoulos and then - and then pardoned them. It's one point to Tammy--

HENRY: I told you so

STEYN: --as we go into round two.

BRUCE: I have - I think I broke my buzzers.

STEYN: Yes. Ed --

HENRY: Good

STEYN: --it was worth it Tammy. Never--

HENRY: Now you're able to --

BRUCE: Look he's double-fisted right there.

STEYN: --never had an opening like this. Ed is facing total humiliation today

BRUCE: All right

STEYN: Tuesday marked the opening of the first legal marijuana shop on the East Coast. The dispensary is located in which Northeastern state?

(BUZZER SOUND)

Ed Henry?

HENRY: Massachusetts.

STEYN: Massachusetts. Let's see the first marijuana dispensary on the East Coast. Roll tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Massachusetts is the seventh state to open retail marijuana shops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: OK. Good, all right

HENRY: I told it

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But they're first opened in--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: That's it. You had your point.

BRUCE: I get - I get the health and flu question right. You get the--

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --east of the Mississippi. Retail shops can sell each customer no more than an ounce of flour --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: --drug question with it

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --or 20 servings of edibles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Yes. So, Tammy's an expert in Carrots and Ed is an expert on reform madness

HENRY: I just moved to Boston.

STEYN: You - you can tell from his eyes.

BRUCE: Very good

STEYN: So, it's one point each.

Question three is a multiple choice one. In a viral video going around this week, a Russian lady was spotted at a Moscow train station with a very unusual pet sitting on her shoulder. Was it A, a koala, B, a fox, or C, a sloth?

(BUZZER SOUND)

BRUCE: Oh, no.

STEYN: Ed Henry.

HENRY: Fox.

STEYN: A fox on the shoulder of a Russian lady, roll tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG GUTFELD, FOX NEWS HOST, THE FIVE & THE GREG GUTFELD SHOW: Moving to Russia, we have a Fox News in Russia now, check this out. A Russian woman with a pet fox--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: --resting on the woman's --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: It's really cool

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: --shoulder --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: We've all got a fox on our shoulder--

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: --raised a couple of eyebrows --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: --if it's dead

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: --but not many because it is Moscow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: There you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: They usually have a lot of fur on--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Yes. I--

BRUCE: At least that was like --

STEYN: --I like a woman with real fur on her so--

BRUCE: Yes. Exactly.

STEYN: --that's - that's nice.

HENRY: I told her before the show that one more thing, there's always--

BRUCE: Yes.

HENRY: --an answer.

STEYN: Yes. So--

BRUCE: That's one coat though you have to feed unfortunately.

STEYN: Yes. That's - that's right. You got to have that in your other pocket

Question four. NASA has announced that after a six-month journey, its spacecraft will finally land next week and explore the surface of which planet?

(BUZZER SOUND)

Tammy.

BRUCE: Mars.

STEYN: Is it Mars? Let's see.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NASA's latest visitor to Mars is just about there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The InSight probe--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: Looks like a --

BRUCE: We're doing it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --arrives Monday--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: We're doing it again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --after a six-month 300 million mile journey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: I think I'll go back to the moon now. I want to go back to the moon man before the Chinese get there.

HENRY: Don't worry. We're going to send you to the moon after this show

BRUCE: All right.

STEYN: Well if you - if you want to know what a - if you want to know what a 300 million mile journey is like, just try flying from O'Hare to LaGuardia today. You don't need to go to Mars. It'll be quicker going to Mars.

TEXT: SUDDEN DEATH.

BRUCE: Are we tied?

STEYN: That's two. It's two that means--

BRUCE: We are tied.

STEYN: --it's Sudden Death--

BRUCE: All right. So--

STEYN: --for the final--

HENRY: Good luck.

BRUCE: --good luck to you.

STEYN: --final question.

HENRY: She's - she's crushing my hand.

BRUCE: Yes.

STEYN: They're being very supporting. She's just broken three of his fingers. He'll never have the strength to push that but this is an amazing- -

BRUCE: You've got some Scottish in you, don't you?

STEYN: --turnaround.

HENRY: I think I have

STEYN: The final question. Folks on social media are taking part in a holiday prank called the Turkey Challenge. Participants try to get a rise out of mom by texting her to ask if it's possible to cook a massive turkey in what unusual way?

(BUZZER SOUND)

HENRY: Oh.

STEYN: And it's Tammy.

HENRY: This was on Fox & Friends.

STEYN: Tammy.

BRUCE: In the microwave.

STEYN: Let's see, cooking a Turkey - that's too ridiculous.

BRUCE: You gave me - you were too good with your instructions.

STEYN: Let's see if it's right Roll tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids are sending their moms prank text messages asking how long they could cook--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE: Yes, well --

HENRY: I know

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: --they should cook a 25-pound turkey in the microwave.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One mom responded, "Wrap it in foil. Put it in the microwave. Then go buy a pre-cooked one so you can feed the fire department."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEYN: Exactly.

BRUCE: Now, you know, Butterball says, you can do it but with a smaller bird. So, there's don't put the gigantic one in. You can do it with a much smaller bird. And yes, you can do it

STEYN: You don't need a turkey for Thanksgiving, Tammy.

HENRY: Let's just slam it in

STEYN: We're just --

HENRY: She knows more information than was even asked.

STEYN: Ed Henry is going home with you and you get to put him in the microwave and serve him up for--

BRUCE: Is that - is that--

STEYN: --dinner

BRUCE: --do I get that?

STEYN: Yes, you win--

BRUCE: Is that a prize?

STEYN: --you win - that is your prize.

HENRY: And you knew that. Before you told me, "Don't worry. You're not taking it."

STEYN: The Erik--

HENRY: So, you knew--

BRUCE: I'm psychic.

STEYN: --you win the Erik Wemple mug.

BRUCE: But you know what I'm going to do? Because you were so nice with your advice--

HENRY: I told her before you got to hold it tight --

BRUCE: --and he gave me the - the advice with this, I'm going to offer this to you as a shared prize--

HENRY: No, I don't like that.

STEYN: No, no, no, no, no--

HENRY: --I - I can't take any more --

STEYN: --no, we don't have participation prize --

HENRY: --this is where I fail This is Thanksgiving--

STEYN: It's for --

HENRY: --leftovers. I don't want that

BRUCE: Oh, no, no.

STEYN: --it's victory or defeat--

HENRY: I don't take participation so--

STEYN: --Tammy, he's a loser. And he's the worse --

HENRY: You know what, maybe I will take it, yes.

BRUCE: He's going to take it. He's going to take it now.

STEYN: --capital L --

HENRY: I beg your pardon.

STEYN: --capital L loser. Congratulations.

HENRY: Congratulations to you

BRUCE: Thank you, sir. Thank you.

STEYN: Tammy wins the Erik Wemple mug and she gets to guest host Friday's edition of Tucker Carlson.

BRUCE: Yes. That's right.

STEYN: That is it for this Thanksgiving Edition--

BRUCE: Friday.

HENRY: I'll be back.

STEYN: He won't be back. He's done.

BRUCE: I want a rematch.

STEYN: He's - he's - he's--

HENRY: I'll take it.

STEYN: --toast. He's affordable in the microwave. The end of Ed Henry. Pay attention to the news each week and tune in to see if you can beat the experts. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEYN: It's the day before Thanksgiving, and a record-setting number of Americans are traveling to spend time with family. AAA estimates that 54 million Americans will be traveling at least 50 miles from home this holiday season. That's the most since 2005. More than 30 million Americans are expected to travel by plane around the holiday. That's a new record.

And right now, there's breaking news of a big problem on the rails. Amtrak is reporting a train stuck near Albany, New York due to major engine problems in - in the sense that the engine appears to have left the train behind.

And passengers are tweeting from the train. A rescue engine has been sent to pick up the passengers. But if you were looking forward to turkey and you have to make do with the last curling sandwich from the Club Car, it's no fun.

A snowy and very cold Thanksgiving, very chilly, expected in the Northeast, and not just because your Liberal aunt still wants to talk about how Hillary was cheated, But Parade organizers hope to get the Macy's balloons off the ground in New York tomorrow for the 92nd Annual Macy's Parade with 16 balloons and 26 floats and more than 3 million spectators expected to brave the cold.

There's lots to be thankful for. I'm thankful for the great Judge Jeanine right now.

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