Chief justice rebukes Trump for slamming Ninth Circuit

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Chief justice rebukes Trump for slamming Ninth Circuit

Chief Justice John Roberts takes on President Trump for his comments about the Ninth Circuit court; Bill Bennett looks at other presidents who have sparred with justices.

This is a rush transcript from "The Story with Martha MacCallum," November 21, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SANDRA SMITH, GUEST HOST: Breaking tonight, an unprecedented war of words brewing tonight between the Supreme Court Chief Justice and our commander in chief that could become a flashpoint in the immigration debate. And could set a new precedent for the highest court in the land.

Good evening, everybody. I'm Sandra Smith, in for Martha MacCallum, tonight. It began with President Trump, railing against the blockage of his asylum ban.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Every case that gets filed in the Ninth Circuit, we get beaten. And then, we end up having to go to the Supreme Court like the travel ban, and we won.

The Ninth Circuit, we're going to have to look at that. Because every case, no matter where it is, they file it practically, I mean, practically. For all intents and purposes, they file it in what is called, the Ninth Circuit. This was an Obama judge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: In a shock move, Chief Justice Roberts' firing back. "We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges, or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them."

The president not letting that go tonight, tweeting this in response, "Sorry Chief Justice John Roberts, but you do indeed have Obama judges, and they have a much different point of view than the people who are charged with the safety of our country."

Fox News Correspondent Kristin Fisher is live in Washington tonight with the backstory in how we got to this point? Kristin, good evening.

KRISTIN FISHER, FOX NEWS: Well, Sandra, this is unprecedented on many levels. It's unprecedented for a chief justice to challenge a sitting president, and it's unprecedented for a president to criticize individual judges in rulings that he doesn't like.

Now, this tension between these two branches of government have really been building for some time. But it began to boil over when U.S. District Judge Jon Tigar, an Obama-era appointee ruled against the administration's new asylum policies, effectively, putting them on hold.

As that caravan of migrants move closer to the United States, President Trump changed U.S. asylum policy by declaring that no one could apply for asylum if they enter the country illegally. That they had to apply for asylum at an official point of entry.

Yesterday, Judge Tigar, on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against that change prompting this response from President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Everybody that wants to sue the United States, they file their case in almost -- they file their case in the Ninth Circuit. And it means an automatic loss. No matter what you do, no matter how good your case is. And the Ninth Circuit is really something we have to take a look at because it's -- because it's not fair.

People should not be allowed to immediately run into this very friendly circuit and file their case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: Now, that in part is what led to Roberts' unprecedented rebuke today. But tensions between the chief justice and President Trump, they go all the way back to the early days of the 2016 campaign, when then- candidate Trump criticized the chief justice's decisive vote in 2012, which essentially saved Obamacare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Justice Roberts really lead us down. What he did with Obamacare was disgraceful. And I think he did that because he wanted to be popular with inside the beltway or something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: And remember, during the campaign, then-candidate Trump also referred to a U.S.-born judge of Mexican descent, who was presiding over a lawsuit against Trump University. He referred to him as a Mexican who would not be able to rule fairly because of Mr. Trump's proposal to build a wall on the southern border.

So, these kinds of attacks against the judiciary are really nothing new, but for the chief justice to actually respond, Sandra, that hasn't happened until today.

SMITH: Kristin Fisher, thank you. Here now, Shannon Bream, the anchor of the "FOX NEWS @ NIGHT", and Fox News chief legal correspondent. Shannon, good evening to you.

So, this certainly was a rare rebuke. So, how unprecedented was this?

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS: Yes. Well, Sandra, good evening. In the decade-plus that I've been covering the Supreme Court, I haven't seen anything quite like this. The heads of the judicial and executive branches going out airing their dirty laundry, basically for the world to see. This are, of course, co-equal branches, and no doubt, neither wants the other stepping into his lane.

But President Trump's arrival on the scene, even as a candidate, it really seem to set new ground rules for how this relationship is going to work. Folks may remember that during the 2016 campaign, Justice Ginsburg called the president a faker. She's not even saying consistent that he just says whatever popped into his head, she commented on his healthy ego.

She even said the press was too easy on him. And she talked to The New York Times about how she couldn't imagine what this world and this country would be like if Donald Trump ended up as president.

You know, just like he did today. Going out there on Twitter. He did the same thing with Justice Ginsburg. He said her mind was shot, he said it was time for her to resign. But she does made clear, Sandra. She has no intention of doing that anytime soon.

SMITH: You know, the president was talking, Shannon, about the number of cases that go to the Ninth Circuit that then get overturned when they make it to the Supreme Court. So, we ran these numbers by our brain room this evening. And it turns out that more than 75 percent of those cases get reversed. That go to the -- that go the Ninth Circuit.

This is the rate since 2007. Now, that's not the highest rate of any of those -- of any of those courts. It's the fourth most overturned circuit.

Some have a 100 percent reversal rate. But that's still pretty high to the president's point.

BREAM: Yes, it is. And there are some years where it's even higher up the list, near the top, one or two. And the fact is, the president's opponents are not dummies. They know that they're going to have a more sympathetic ear, with a number of these judges who are in the Ninth Circuit, it's cued as easily the most liberal of all the circuits out there.

So, you know, when he talks about the Ninth Circuit behaving in a certain way, people are smart enough to do a little forum shopping, as we call it. If they know they have something they want to go head-on against the president with the asylum policy, the travel ban, almost every time, you will see these cases filed in the Ninth Circuit because of the fact that they do tend to be more liberal and they turned over -- tend to overturn the president's policies, or at least put them on hold wilder than tight up in court for years, which is very frustrating for the administration.

SMITH: Really interesting. And finally, Shannon, in the president's words there, you sort of suggested, we're going to look into this. Change is coming. I mean, what could the president do here next?

BREAM: Well, I mean, there are limits. There's nothing really he could do on his own. But there have been many discussions over the last few years under both Republican and Democrat presidents about breaking up the Ninth Circuit, saying it's become too powerful, it's too big. It does cover a huge area, California and eight states in addition.

So, a lot of people have said, let's break it up, let's add circuits, take away some of its power, dilute it a little bit, and maybe bring California away from some states that might be more conservative in nature.

We'll see where they go with that. But ultimately, there is not a magic wand, the president can wave tonight to make any major change like that.

SMITH: Certainly, it's fair to say, Shannon, with your time covering the Supreme Court that tensions are high, and there's a lot of frustration out there. And this really is a rare moment.

BREAM: Yes, it is. And one of the things that's really been frustrating for the White House, for the president, I've heard discussions at the Department of Justice, as well as this idea that one federal judge at the very lowest level.

Like this judge in this asylum case can not only put a hold on this policy in his geographic region that he oversees, but a nationwide injunction that completely stops the White House program, The trump administration programs, and its tracks that can be enforced anywhere in the country. We saw this with the travel ban, as well. That's something they are really concerned about.

Justices Thomas and Gorsuch have both brought this up now. This year saying, listen, we don't think that this is a legit way to use the power. I mean, there almost 700 of those judges. Are we saying any one of them can shut down an entire nationwide policy? But it's been used that way and it's very smart of the president's critics to go and try to file with those judges knowing it's a big possibility could happen.

SMITH: Great contacts. Great information. Shannon, we will see you again tonight, 11:00 p.m. live on your show.

BREAM: See you, then.

SMITH: So, thank you very much.

BREAM: Thanks, Sandra.

SMITH: Here now, Bill Bennett is host of the Bill Bennett Podcast. The Fox contributor, and just in time for the holidays, author of the new book, The True St. Nicholas, Why He Matters To Christmas. Bill, thank you for coming on the program tonight.

BILL BENNETT, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You bet.

SMITH: Happy early holiday to you. So, what a moment this is indeed.

BENNETT: Thank you, same to you.

SMITH: And perhaps you can just sort of -- give us the history that's led up to this moment, and what an unusual one that it is to see, a sitting president and a Supreme Court Justice in such a public debate and sparring between the two of them.

BENNETT: It's unusual, but it's not unique and unprecedented in American history. Check back to the Civil War, and Abraham Lincoln's arguments -- ongoing arguments with Roger B. Taney.

Chief Justice's Supreme Court in both Dred Scott decision, which is a horrible decision. And in the case, the habeas corpus cases. It was an ongoing debate between the two, and Lincoln was right. And Donald Trump is in the Lincoln tradition here, he is right.

We understand why the chief justice, whom I like and admire, is trying to maintain the independence of the judiciary. But that's an ideal. That is not the reality of what we've got. If it were, you wouldn't see the parties, the Republican Party and the Democrat Party put so much shoulder and effort into who gets to be on the Supreme Court.

I give you the evidence of the last couple of months on the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So, we know these folks aren't independent.

But, a little worst and more disappointing to me, from Chief Justice Roberts, he's inconsistent. He talks about the judiciary particularly, he went when the Supreme Court as being independent above the fray. But here, as Shannon reported, or Kristin reported, here is Justice Ginsburg criticizing Donald Trump as a candidate, saying he's a fake, saying he's all ego, et cetera.

And to the best of my knowledge, there was no rebuke of Justice Ginsburg by Chief Justice Roberts. But a rebuke here of the president.

But the president is right, and I think he speaks for a lot of people when he says, "Look, here's -- here I am. I'm the president, I've been elected." Here's this terrible problem at the border, and you get one judge and he can frustrate the will of the people as manifesting the president by a decision.

So, I think he's on very strong grounds historically, and I -- and I think he's on strong grounds, terms of the Constitution.

SMITH: Well, I'll go back and ask you the question I just asked Shannon, and that is the president seems to sort of hint, we're going to look into this. You know, something's got to change.

All right, what having observed this president now for a couple years in office, and what do you think that he could possibly explore here as far as potential changes?

BENNETT: Well, you know we've just been reviewing the election results, and the president was talking about how important it was to add to his Senate Majority.

Absolutely right, Sandra, that's where you confirm the judges. And you confirm the judges for a lot of these courts. And that's why this administration, I congratulate it has been very busy doing that. So, one thing is you change who's in there. And that's what our election -- that's what elections are about.

But the other thing is we need to look to see historically how much things have changed. Hamilton writes in the 78 Federalist Papers is the least dangerous branch. It has no force, it has no will, it has no sword, it has no purse. You know, don't worry about it, essentially, Hamilton says.

But in recent history as we know, a lots of times the legislature gets deadlocked, and so, it goes to the court. Sometimes presidents don't want to make decision or say, "I wonder whether it's constitutional." So, it goes to the court. And you know, the Democrat Party has felt that -- you know, their place is the Supreme Court. So it's become very powerful. And maybe not so much the least dangerous branch. So, some perspective on that is I think essential.

But I noticed Justice Thomas -- Clarence Thomas was saying in regard to this and other situations like it that maybe we ought to review just what is possible and what is permissible for judges to do.

The president since the outrage about this seems to me exactly right in terms of here we are, we face this terrible problem, we get a judge who stops the president, it goes up usually the Supreme Court sides with the president, and here we go again.

There's a real problem at the border, and the president is trying to get these judges in the Ninth Circuit to understand it. Apparently, they don't.

SMITH: Well, there's really something to watch and it didn't take long for the president then to respond to Justice Roberts' statement via Twitter this evening. This is likely to continue we'll be watching all of it. Bill Bennett, happy holidays. And your final word, yes.

BENNETT: Well, when you -- when you -- when you push at this president, he pushes back, and people need to remember that. He doesn't sit and take it. You want a counter-puncher? You got one, and he was right in this case.

SMITH: Bill, have a lovely holiday. Thank you for coming on tonight.

BENNETT: Thank you. Yes, Thanksgiving. Thank you, thank you, yes.

SMITH: Take care. Well, tonight, a House GOP members launching a new effort to get answers about Hillary Clinton's actions while Secretary of State.

What they are looking for and why the president reportedly wanted Hillary prosecuted over it? We'll have that next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country.

TRUMP: Because you'd be in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: THE STORY is brought to you by the Lincoln Wish List Sales Event.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: between you and the Clinton Foundation why isn't it what Mr. Trump calls hate apply.

CLINTON: Well, everything I did as Secretary of State was in furtherance of our country's interests and our values. I'm thrilled to talk about the Clinton Foundation because it is a world-renowned charity --

TRUMP: It's a criminal enterprise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: So as you just saw there, it's an issue that has been dogging Hillary Clinton for at least two years now. And tonight House Republicans confirming they will hold hearings on the DOJ probe into the Clinton Foundation and whether the Clintons did political favors in return for contributions to their charity while Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State. It comes amid reports President Trump wanted Hillary prosecuted over this very issue.

Joining us now, Tammy Bruce Washington Times Columnist and Jehmu Greene former DNC Chair Candidate. Both are Fox News Contributors. Jehmu and Tammy, good evening to you and thank you for being here. So let's get this started. Tammy, first up, will anything come out of this? What will we learn?

TAMMY BRUCE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that's hard to say. Look, the entire Benghazi probe of Congress, all that gave us was Hillary's an e-mail server right? Very interesting things can be delivered when it comes to information. But at the same time, these Congressional hearings very much are like a dog and pony show. It's what they say is like all hat and no cattle right?

And yet, I think the President is you could tell through the campaigning and what we've seen actually since her failure as president since her defeat his donations dried up to the foundation, that there's -- again the big argument of was there a link between money that was given to the foundation and actions that Hillary took a Secretary of State. Huber who is doing this investigation is outside the Beltway.

There's hope that as a result, he is going to be able to deliver some information that is objective in looking at all of these issues including Uranium One, etcetera. A lot of stuff that was discussed during the campaigns, many people expect because of the effectively the decline if not collapse of the foundation after the election that in fact it was linked to what people expected from her not just a Secretary of State but his president as well.

SMITH: So Jehmu, the issues will involve to Tammy's point the FBI, the Clinton Foundation and the sale of Uranium One. They did -- Huber said he did not intend to appoint a special counsel but Jeff Sessions put him in charge of this. So a hearing will take place early December. What do we learn?

JEHMU GREENE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I can say for full disclosure that what I learned when I traveled with the Clinton Foundation to several countries on the African continent and then also to Mexico City for the World AIDS Conference is the life-changing work that this foundation has done. It goes against our core American values to target your political rivals in the way that President Trump and the Department of Justice and Republicans on the Hill have with this foundation. It's just despicable.

But I've seen AIDS patients who were surviving because of how prices were drastically reduced because of the Clinton Foundation. I've seen young kids who were nourished and fed because of partnerships with Farmers. I have seen this work up close and personal. I am also disgusted by both side (INAUDIBLE) but I do think it is important to point out here that the Trump Foundation which is under investigation itself because the only work it has done has been to pay his legal bills, to buy paintings of his self, and to buy a Tim Tebow helmet. This is -- this is a pretty stark comparison.

SMITH: OK, Tammy I want you to respond to that real quickly because I want to move on to -- we got a couple other things to talk about. Tammy, respond.

BRUCE: Look, I think that they were doing some parts of some very good work which makes this pay for --

GREENE: Absolutely.

BRUCE: Pay for play argument particularly egregious because in fact, they put so much good work at risk and in fact a great deal of it has stopped. But you can also look at Jimmy Carter's work, Habitat for Humanity. Charity does not need to stop or collapse when you aren't in office anymore and yet strangely that is what has happened with the Clintons --

GREENE: It hasn't collapsed. It has not collapsed.

SMITH: Hold on Jehmu, wait. Nancy Pelosi is our second topic and I want to make sure we get all these in. Nancy Pelosi, does she become the next Speaker? Jehmu, to you first.

GREENE: I do think that at Congresswomen Pelosi, future Speaker of the House Pelosi is going to be fine. What we're seeing now is how effective she is as a leader. And I do find it interesting that when the House Democrats have been so successful, she is the one that --

BRUCE: You know what it is -- you know what it is -- here's what it is --

GREENE: But I think she has --

BRUCE: -- excuse me, Jehmu, the dynamic -- I believe also she'll be elected Speaker but it's not because she's such a fantastic leader. It's because it's the swamp. She's been in there forever.

GREENE: That's not fair.

BRUCE: These young people who will have a tremendous contribution to make are up against something that they have no idea what's going to wash down on them. And look she raises up money for everyone. But this is the problem with the swamp. It's ingrained, both sides are trying to deal with it, and the Democrats are going to have a fight on their hands. I think she'll win.

SMITH: Something tells me that these conversations are going to be taking place at Thanksgiving dinner tables tomorrow. And here's what you need to know. The latest polling reveals about whether people want to talk politics at that dinner table. 15 percent say they look forward to it, 40 percent say they're hoping to avoid politics at the Thanksgiving table, 45 percent say they don't care either way.

I don't know if I believe that, Tammy, but bottom line, it looks like you should probably avoid talking politics. 15 percent of Americans say that they are looking forward to? Who wants to do that? Come on, talk about what you're thankful for.

BRUCE: And look, especially when you're missing your family through the year, everyone's so busy, let's talk about family things. Let's talk about -- look, the family is who's going to be there for you when there's a problem not any one of your favorite politicians. This is the time to talk about things that we're not talking about when we're not with our family.

SMITH: How about you Jehmu?

GREENE: I think we do have to be having better conversations about these issues that are dividing us. We can't stay stuck in the mud in the way that we are, the emotions that I hear from people. So I hope that on Thanksgiving you can find a way to understand that even if someone disagrees with you on an issue, it doesn't mean that there is not love, there are valid feelings there that can be explored. Hopefully, we can get phase because that's what is a part of our American values as well.

BRUCE: Focus on the things that you agree on.

SMITH: That's a lovely note to end on. We know that back in 2016, a kind of few -- a kind of few dinner table conversation short politics did. All right, thank you very much, ladies, and thanks for coming up tonight.

BRUCE: Happy Thanksgiving.

SMITH: You too. Well, coming up, how a deep red Senate seat could swing the other way in a crucial Mississippi special election just days from now and what the race could be signaling for 2020.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMITH: The Mississippi Senate runoff getting uglier by the day as race is now becoming a central issue ahead of next week's election. Republican incumbent Cindy Hyde-Smith apologizing for her controversial public hanging remark last night in a debate with Democratic challenger Mike Espy. Democrats are looking to capitalize on the controversial comments and pick up a seat in the U.S. Senate, but will this strategy work?

Ellison Barber is live in Washington with the latest on this. Ellison, good evening.

ELLISON BARBER, FOX NEWS: Hey, Sandra. Yes, a Democrat has not represented Mississippi in the U.S. Senate since 1982. This race seemed solidly rea a few weeks ago but now Democrats have something they didn't have a few weeks ago and that is a glimmer of hope. Election analysts say the Mississippi Senate race is not highly competitive. Democrat Mike Espy is still considered an underdog but they say this race is no longer an incredibly easy Republican pickup, and it's because of this comment incumbent Senator Cindy Hyde-Smith made when talking about how much she liked a supporter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CINDY HYDE-SMITH (R), MISSISSIPPI: If he invited me to a public hanging, I'd be in the front row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARBER: From 1882 to 1968, the NAACP says at least 581 people were lynched in Mississippi, more than any other state in the U.S. The vast majority of people lynched in the U.S. were black. To many, Hyde-Smith's comment poured salt on wounds that are still very much open Espy says the comment reinforces stereotypes about the state and gives Mississippi in his words another black eye.

Wal-Mart withdrew support of Hyde-Smith and say that they are now requesting a refund of all campaign donations. AT&T is reportedly asking Hyde-Smith's campaign to return money they contributed as well, same goes for Pfizer, Boston Scientific, a medical supply company, and the railroad company Union Pacific. Hyde-Smith's campaign said the remarks were an exaggerate expression of regard and blown out of proportion. At a debate last night, the Senator publicly apologized for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HYDE-SMITH: For anyone that was offended by my comments, I certainly apologize. There was no ill will, no intent whatsoever in my statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARBER: She accused her opponent of twisting her words. Mr. Espy disagreed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HYDE-SMITH: That this comment was twisted and it was turned into a weapon to be used against me. A political weapon used for nothing but personal and political gain by my opponent.

MIKE ESPY, SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, (D) MISSISSIPPI: Well, no one twisted your comments because your comments were live. You know it came out of your mouth. I don't know what's in your heart, but we all know what came out of your mouth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARBER: The outcome of this race is not going to shift the balance of power in Congress but Republicans want to increase their majority in the Senate and Democrats want to keep the numbers as close as possible.

After what happened in the Alabama special election Senate race, Democrats think if this issue stays in the spotlight, they have a chance of picking up this seat in part by increasing voter turnout.

Hyde-Smith and Espy were within one point of each other after the jungle primary. The runoff is set for November 27th. President Trump is set to rally on behalf of Hyde-Smith on November 26th. He won the state in 2016 by about 18 percent. Sandra.

SMITH: Thank you for that. Joining us now, Kayleigh McEnany, RNC spokesperson, and Jennifer Holdsworth, campaign director for Cory Booker's 2014 Senate race and New Jersey state director for Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. Good evening to both of you. So, Kayleigh, to you first.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, SPOKESPERSON, RNC: Good evening.

JENNIFER HOLDSWORTH, STATE DIRECTOR, 2016 HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN: Good evening.

SMITH: Are you getting indication that Mississippi's Senate seat may flip?

MCENANY: No, we are not. In fact, when you combine the vote total that the Republicans got together with 58 percent. This is a seat that President Trump, a state, rather, that President Trump won by 18 points. He is going there to his rally, he will put Cindy Hyde-Smith over the top.

This is not a close seat. And I think nearly, you look at the records of the two individuals before us, and Cindy Hyde-Smith voted on changes and funding for the opioid crisis, she voted on tax cuts for Mississippi, and she has a track record of good decision-making versus Mike Espy who got $750,000 lobbying for a desperate from the Ivory Coast before the International Criminal Court on charges of crimes against humanity. So, you got a choice--

(CROSSTALK)

SMITH: I mean, but Kayleigh--

MCENANY: Cindy Hyde-Smith is the choice.

SMITH: Generally speaking, is there a concern within your party?

MCENANY: We're concerned about every single Senate seat. We do not take a single one for granted. You know, we regret that we lost in Arizona, but we picked up in Missouri, we picked up elsewhere. We now have a 53-seat majority if we hold this one. So, we are not concerned about losing this, but we are putting all in. That's why the president is going there the day before the election.

SMITH: So, Jennifer, give us what, give us your take on this and what is expected. Is it realistic to think that a Democrat could win?

HOLDSWORTH: Yes, it is realistic. I think her comment was absolutely appalling and I think you are seeing a lot of folks agree with me on that.

You have companies like AT&T and Wal-Mart, and Pfizer which are not exactly liberal bastions of thought, that are asking for their contributions back from Cindy Hyde-Smith because of what she said. Not only that, but she couldn't even offer a sincere apology. She had to refer to her notes. And she apologized for people being offended, not for the words that came out of her mouth.

I think voters are going to take notice of this. You've got a state, which, yes, it is read, but it has a significant African-American population and for her to bring up something so egregious, so steeped in racial history, I think you're going to see a lot of people come out and vote against her because of that.

SMITH: Kayleigh, I want to get your response to that.

MCENANY: Yes. So, there was no ill will intended by her comment, she never mentioned race, she never used the term lynching. She apologized. Because she is apologizing for the way those comments have been taken and the way they have been twisted.

And I would just note that this is part of the Democratic playbook with every single one of our GOP nominees, there is an attempt to call them a racist. It happened down here with Ron DeSantis in Florida, he went on to win. It happened with Brian Kemp, he went on to win in Georgia.

It happened with Ed Gillespie out in Virginia, where an ad was put forth with a truck with an Ed Gillespie sticker on the back mowing down Muslim children and Latino children. A horrific ad. They do this every single time. Did it in 2016, it doesn't work.

SMITH: Jennifer, I want to get your final word here, go ahead.

HOLDSWORTH: Kayleigh, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, likely it's a duck. I wish that Republicans were putting up candidates that did not constantly put their message with racial undertones, but they are. How would you expect a normal--

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: None of those candidates are racist.

HOLDSWORTH: -- and public official to respond to that?

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: None of those candidates are racist.

HOLDSWORTH: I wish that -- I wish they weren't, but they shouldn't be talking about race in such inflammatory ways.

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: Race against Donald Trump in 2016.

SMITH: All right. I've got to let Kayleigh respond to that. Go ahead, Kayleigh. Final word there.

MCENANY: Right, 2016 was an effort to paint President Donald Trump as everything he was not sexist, racist, homophobic, it did not work. He is president of the United States. Find a new playbook, Democrats.

SMITH: All right. We've got to leave it there.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLDSWORTH: He's putting in policies exactly like that.

SMITH: Thank you very much for both of you. That debate certainly heating up there, but we've got more to get to tonight. Thank you, ladies.

Well, forget Thanksgiving. Some people are already gearing up for what they consider the real holiday, black Friday. And if you don't want to wait in long lines, our next guest has a cover for you. Jennifer Goff will wait for you instead. It doesn't that sound nice? But it will cost you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMITH: The White House adamant the economy is going strong, downplaying fears of a recession and that one could be just around the corner.

Just yesterday, the stock market lost all of its gains for the year and it finished flat today just ahead of the official start to the holiday shopping season. So, what can we expect heading into black Friday?

Joining us now is Susan Li, Fox Business correspondent. So, the stock market has been, well, it's moving quickly in both directions some days.

SUSAN LI, FOX BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Some volatility.

SMITH: But most recently, it has been selling off, and it went negative for the year. So, everybody is talking about that. But what all of this mean for the shopping season? Are consumers confident, are they going to be opening their wallets?

(CROSSTALK)

LI: Absolutely. Yes. So, we are expecting a record shopping season. A $1 trillion is expected to be spent on black Friday, and cyber Monday and through in Christmas combined. First time Americans will spend more than $1 trillion in a shopping season.

SMITH: Wow.

LI: So, 78 percent of Americans plan to buy something. Either this weekend, Friday, or cyber Monday. Sixty percent of those sales will be done online. And 78 percent of Americans say they will spend more or the same from last year to this year, and on average, $1,500 per American. Can you believe that? And don't forget, that's really, really vital to the U.S. economy. So that powers a two-thirds of it, right.

SMITH: So, while there has been, you know, talk about the stock market and this recent sell off, and some people are even using the R word to talk about what may be coming, a possible recession.

Larry Kudlow at the White House responded to that. That is not happening, that is not in the future. And in fact, they are adamant that we are going to continue to see solid growth in the economy.

LI: I agree. Because consumer confidence is an 18-year high. If consumers continue to spend $1 trillion as they have, you know, especially with a tight labor market, they are feeling confident that they can find a job, they can pay for their healthcare, and they can quit their job to find something better in the future. If that confidence continues, I think that pushes off recession for a long time.

SMITH: You know, it's remarkable to have the economy on this sort of footing heading into the holiday shopping season. You know, you've got wages that were stagnant for so long.

LI: Right.

SMITH: They are rising.

LI: Again.

SMITH: You've got the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years.

LI: Yes.

SMITH: People are working, they're making more money, they feel good according to this consumer sentiment surveys. So, it sounds like it could be a pretty good shopping season.

LI: It is expected to be a good shopping season. I'll tell you some of the items they are expected to buy. They are going to line up, apparently for this 4k televisions. Yes, and gadgets, of course, and also those gaming consuls, anything with a fortnight is very popular this year in 2018. That's a popular video game.

SMITH: Anything technology, right?

LI: And technology-based and also Hatchimals is back for the kids.

SMITH: I have to admit I'm all too familiar with Hatchimals. Good stuff. Susan Li, thank you very much for joining us.

LI: Happy Thanksgiving.

SMITH: And happy Thanksgiving to you and happy shopping, by the way.

LI: Yes.

SMITH: Speaking of holiday shopping, get this. A new report shows many Americans are planning to outsource part of their shopping experience, paying other people to wait in line for them.

My next guest does just that. Jennifer Goff is founder and CEO of Skip the Line. Jennifer, I don't know if a lot of folks know this is possible. You don't -- you don't have to wait in line, you can pay somebody else to do it for you?

JENNIFER GOFF, FOUNDER & CEO, SKIP THE LINE: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. But, yes, absolutely, we can totally wait in line for you for anything in terms of black Friday to restaurant reservations, general admission concerts, and here in D.C., we do a lot of the government side of stuff, the Supreme Court and congressional hearings.

SMITH: I got to ask, I mean, my first thought when I hear that is, well, can't I do all of that online? Just have it sent to my front door. Why -- why people paying somebody to wait in line for them?

GOFF: You know, I think a lot of people, especially in terms of black Friday, they want to partake in actually buying, you know, right at the store or whatever they are looking for. Electronics, clothing, and everything else, especially here in the D.C. area, there is a big line culture for different restaurants that don't take reservations, tickets for certain museums. So, those things, you know, you can't do those online, but.

SMITH: I have to tell you, sometimes the lines that I see, it baffles me a, that some people are willing to wait and that because if I see a line like that, I skip it. I will do it another day, or do it online, or whatever it is. But some places, it's just a matter of fact, you know, you have to go to the physical store, you've got to wait in line.

So, what does that like? So, what -- give me an idea of a long line that you stand in, or people that work for your company, what does that look like, what are they doing, and how much are they getting paid?

GOFF: Yes. So, we, like I said, we can do that for a lot of the stuff in D.C. for a lot of restaurants, it's about two hours ahead of time. Some of the longer waits could be Supreme Court cases, which for some of the, more high-profile hearings, could be maybe two or three days in advance.

We rotate, you know, our team members out so they have shifts, so to speak. And you know, they are there, we are keeping the clients happy so that they can arrive and switch spots or if in terms of a reservation, we can put them down or grab their tickets and drop them off.

So, it's pretty much for convenience, and also to help them save their time because people around here are definitely very busy and don't have a lot of time.

SMITH: So, give us an idea on average, what is the cost to pay somebody to wait in line for you say, for a two-hour restaurant reservation?

GOFF: It's about $30 an hour, we charge that's for your whole group. There's definitely something where it's more of a one to one, which would be some of the government side of things, but $30 is about our average. And it's about two, like I said, two hours for most things, which can go to even more if it's a multi-day waits.

SMITH: Does what you are saying line up with what we just talked about on the economy? That the economy is still going strong? Are using that type of demand?

GOFF: I think so in the D.C. area. I mean, I think, you know, D.C. has a pretty strong economy and people want to be able to do a lot of these things but can't because it requires lining up early or maybe they are tied up with family stuff. So, we are here to help them and help them have a better experience.

SMITH: All right. Well, we hope everybody has a wonderful weekend, a wonderful holiday shopping experience. You know, it's black Friday and then it's cyber Monday, because you go back to work and everybody logged on to the computer, and shops there, or at least they don't admit that but a lot of people do that, right?

GOFF: Absolutely, yes.

SMITH: Well, thank you for the information. A lot of us didn't know that was possible. Good to have you on the program tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

GOFF: Thank you so much for having me.

SMITH: Thank you. Up next, why Thanksgiving is now being referred to as a, quote, "national day of mourning."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, there are racist aspect of this history, definitely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you find racist?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that we are celebrating taking away land from natives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMITH: Thanksgiving, viewed by most Americans as a day that brings family and friends together. But that's not how many of our nation's college campuses see it.

Merrimack College in Massachusetts called Thanksgiving a, quote "National day of mourning." That statement was later removed from the school's Facebook page. And University of Oregon student groups are holding an event titled, "Thanks, but no Thanks-giving. Decolonizing an American holiday."

The conservative web site Campus Reform speaking to college students who share those views.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, there are racist aspect of this history, definitely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you find racist?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that we are celebrating taking away land from natives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we can change it to, instead of feeding our ourselves, may be feeding natives or donating to the natives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: Here now is Cabot Phillips, media director of CampusReform.org. Cabot, thank you for coming on the program tonight. What can you tell us about what you heard from those college students?

CABOT PHILLIPS, MEDIA DIRECTOR, CAMPUS REFORM.ORG: Well, this is the common frame we see from the left, especially on college campuses where everything has to be politicized. It's not just media, it's not just for sports who are not happy. And now it has to be harmless holidays like Thanksgiving.

I really miss the days where my biggest concern on Thanksgiving was if I was going to slip into a coma from all the lemon pound cake that my grandma had made. And now I have to worry about if I am culturally appropriating the holiday, if I'm offending people with celebrating it, if I'm not decolonizing the holiday enough.

If there is ever a holiday in our history that we should be able to celebrate and come together and agree on, it's Thanksgiving. It's about coming together and putting aside partisan political differences. We should be encouraging more people to celebrate this, not fewer.

But sadly, when you politicize everything and when you incentivize people to say that things offend them. They are going to come out against holidays like Thanksgiving and say that they are offended by them. And that's the wrong way of viewing it.

SMITH: Hard to believe some of these things. Decolonizing Thanksgiving, using the hash tag, national day of mourning. I can't imagine this is what you heard from a majority of the students on campus. Perhaps you can leave us off on a good note, Cabot?

PHILLIPS: Yes. Well, it's interesting, the leadership institutes Campus Reform, I've talked to thousands of college students and so many of them feel a pressure to go along with this narrative.

So, the second if you say does something offend you, is this racist, is it wrong? They jump in and they're afraid of not looking culturally aware and they say yes, absolutely I agree with that statement even if they don't always believe it.

And that pressure is another problem. And it's not just Thanksgiving, it's Christmas, Valentine's Day, all sorts of different holidays.

SMITH: Very interesting stuff. Cabot Phillips, I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving and I need the recipe from grandma's lemon pound cake. It sounds delicious.

PHILLIPS: Mildred can send it right over. I'll get it to you quickly.

SMITH: Have a wonderful holiday, Cabot. Thank you.

Well, still ahead, some last-minute Thanksgiving recipes from your favorite Fox News host, when Martha opens up her kitchen to Steve Doocy. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMITH: That's so lovely. So, what better way to end a Thanksgiving eve show than to talk about food. Martha has a very special tradition with her family, and she shared it firsthand with our own Steve Doocy earlier this week. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS HOST: So, Thanksgiving is one holiday when we all try to channel our inner Betty Crocker. But I actually try to channel my inner Betty MacCallum. Thanks to my mom. As I do my best to recreate the best parts of the family feast that I grew up knowing and loving as a child.

My mom's bourbon pumpkin cheesecake, check it out, folks, it's legendary. I will be making it for Thanksgiving and you can you, too. Because the recipe is in Steve and Kathy Doocy's "The Happy Cookbook," a number one bestseller on Amazon. Steve joins me now on Thanksgiving eve. Steve.

STEVE DOOCY, FOX NEWS CO-HOST: Hello there.

MACCALLUM: Hello there. Congratulations.

DOOCY: Thank you very much.

MACCALLUM: That was enormously successful book. I actually have had several friends and family members say they want your book, from me, for Christmas. So, I'm helping to pump up the sales.

DOOCY: And you've actually made some of the stuff as well.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

DOOCY: I can't tell you, my wife, Kathy and I have been across the country at the book tour, and people will come up and they'll say, I made your mom's lasagna, I made Martha's mom's pumpkin cheese cake.

MACCALLUM: Yes.

DOOCY: It's fantastic. You know, I said last time I was here, there's something about the smell of certain foods that triggers the nostalgia department in your head. And for instance, with Thanksgiving, it's the same thing. You walk in the house, you smell the turkey, you smell the stuffing, it takes you back to when you were a kid.

And you know, I can still remember the way my mom made her giblet stuffing. Why do they put those things in the bag in there--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I don't know.

DOOCY: -- because you're just be eating.

MACCALLUM: I know, I know.

DOOCY: Luckily, we had a dog rag.

MACCALLUM: Exactly.

Let's look at you and me, is that right?

DOOCY: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Let's take at you and me in my kitchen, making my mom's bourbon pumpkin cheesecake.

DOOCY: OK.

MACCALLUM: So now we're going to make Betty's bourbon pumpkin cheesecake, which is really a Thanksgiving delicacy, it's something that I really make once a year--

DOOCY: Right.

MACCALLUM: -- at Thanksgiving.

DOOCY: Why?

MACCALLUM: Because it's delicious. Well, it's pumpkin, it's just sort of seasonal, it's a great time of year to have it.

DOOCY: It is so-

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: So pretty. It is so pretty. I love this.

DOOCY: It is so pretty. And you told me on the holiday you'll just put it right over there and it sits like a superstar.

MACCALLUM: It's a superstar, exactly. And everyone walks in and goes, did you make that? And I say yes.

DOOCY: That's right. And you actually did.

MACCALLUM: It's not often that I can say, yes, I did.

DOOCY: So, you are going to be making that tomorrow?

MACCALLUM: Yes, yes, for Thanksgiving.

DOOCY: OK. All right. Well, I know that bullet is your favorite bourbon for cooking with.

MACCALLUM: You brought 24 for me?

DOOCY: Yes.

MACCALLUM: Do you know that once I open this and my brother-in-law gets in the house it's going to be like half gone.

DOOCY: Well, let's get some coffee cups, let's do like we do in the morning show.

MACCALLUM: This is good, this is good stuff. Steve, thank you. And you know what, it really, the cookbook I do love it, because it's really, like the comfort family cookbook. You had so many great pictures of you and your family.

DOOCY: Right. Well, you know, you are so lucky, because you've got in your mom's handwriting the actual recipes--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: Yes, I do. On the cards.

DOOCY: -- when you are growing up.

MACCALLUM: I treasure them.

DOOCY: So, many people have come up to us as well, and they will give us their mom's recipe. And we put a 100 of them in the "Happy Cookbook." And thanks to you and your family. Two of yours right in there. People--

(CROSSTALK)

MACCALLUM: I'm so proud to be part of it.

DOOCY: Yes.

MACCALLUM: I really am. Steve, thank you so much. And you guys all you Doocy's, we all know and love, have a great Thanksgiving together.

DOOCY: Thank you. You and your family, as well.

MACCALLUM: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: Pumpkin bourbon cheesecake, Martha, save us a piece. All right. Well, you can catch the full cooking segment on Fox Nation when it launches November 22nd. That is it for "The Story" tonight.

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