Bombshell allegations mount against Harvey Weinstein

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 11, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."

This hour, President Trump will pitch his tax reform plan in Middletown, Pennsylvania, and we will bring the speech do you live when it happens. But first to our top story, developments in the Harvey Weinstein scandal have been fast and furious over the past 24 hours. We've learned that the movie mogul has boarded a flight to Europe for sex rehab as more victims have now come forward, the latest being Cara Delevigne who claims she was a victim of his unwanted advances, and there's more. New reports about how Weinstein was perhaps protected. First up, NBC News. Here's Ronan Farrow on how the network refused to first report on the story.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: Why did you end up reporting this story for the New Yorker and not for NBC News?

RONAN FARROW: Look, you would have to ask NBC and NBC executives about details of that story. I'm not going to comment to any news organization story that they, you know, did or didn't run. I will say that over many years, many news organizations have circled this story and faced a great deal of pressure in doing so.


GUILFOYLE: And then, there's Hollywood. Did they know about Weinstein's abuses and sit by and do nothing? This video from more than four years ago may prove so.


UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, please. I'm not afraid of anyone in show business. I turned down intercourse with Harvey Weinstein on no less than three occasions, at five.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations. You five ladies no longer have to pretend to be attracted to Harvey Weinstein.



GUILFOYLE: All right. So Dana, do you think this is perhaps just the tip of the iceberg?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: No, I mean, listen, the laughter doesn't sound so funny now, looking back. I guess knowing what they knew at the time, I do have to say I'm really impressed with Ronan Farrow and how composed he was, and that's not easy to do an interview, at least they did the interview on MSNBC. It's a parent company. The question being did they actually stifle the story that Ronan had worked on for quite a while? And they said, no, take it somewhere else. And he takes it to the New Yorker. I thought that was pretty remarkable that perhaps it is a lot more widespread. Chris Hayes who is a host at MSNBC said you have to wonder if Hollywood is staring at something that would be as big as the scandal that the Catholic Church went through 15 years ago.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. And you had a good discussion about that today. The other thing, Dana, just to follow very quickly is Steph McFarland had said that he had heard about it or knew about it, was making jokes. At least there's suggestion that there was some knowledge and discussion about it, sort of, may be behind the scenes, et cetera, and Hollywood. So where do they go from here?

PERINO: It's interesting because -- a lot of places have gone through this. And you look back and say, well, you might have heard about it but maybe you didn't have anything personal to do with it, so you think it's none of my business. But a lot of these actresses that have come forward, and some of their former boyfriends or current boyfriends who said that they tried to confront him directly, they didn't take it public. And probably, that's because they're in the business together and they want to succeed. But I do wonder if at this point they're realizing that they have a much bigger problem on their hands because they were laughing about it, excusing it, but you actually might have legal action that will take him -- I think it's very curious, Kimberly. I'm curious what you think about this.


PERINO: Why did Harvey Weinstein have to go overseas? Is there not an opportunity to go to one of these places in America? I've never looked into it.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: I did. And yes, it's very hard.


GUTFELD: We have to be clear, when we're praising Ronan Farrow for doing what? For bringing up NBC's role in this. So we have to do that with ourselves, correct? I mean, we're all shouting about FNC when that was going on. So I can see why people hide. They call this an open secret which means it's not a secret.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: That's what drives me crazy, it's because there's a certain generation of men perhaps that see in places of power as things as transactional, you know? People have a word for this. It's such an open secret that it's called the casting couch. So it's not just about Weinstein. It's about everybody. They know that when a young girl is going in -- someone will always make a joke about the casting couch.

GUILFOYLE: Well, this is the kind what Dana was talking about in terms of the Chris Hayes, which was, OK, is this something that we're going to see. Obviously, there's been talked about the casting couch that was sort of systemic in Hollywood. Will there be other people who are revealed who are engaged in the same practices?

GUTFELD: It's old school. Wherever there's high-powered executives, where there are directors, there are producers, there are politicians, you are going to see somebody violating this. A lot of people get into certain businesses precisely because of this. Some guy wants to get into movies because he wants to get laid. What? I'm just being honest.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: To Greg's point, in all industries, men continue to abuse their power, and it's starting to slow down as light has been exposed to this. Harvey looks like a serial sexual predator, and it was an open secret. And it's so cliche when you think about it that an ugly, fat, old Hollywood producer dangles the dream of success in front of a young starlet on a casting couch, the stereotype is just so sick.

GUILFOYLE: They don't have to be physically attractive or not. The point is it happens.

WATTERS: Either way, the cliche is true if you look at them. Now, if you look at the industry of Hollywood, they're so limited amount of roles that these women are pursuing. There's only a few big production houses in Hollywood. So you have a few rich, powerful men like Weinstein who control and are the gatekeepers for very hotly contested roles. So you have women coming across from Europe, from Asia, from all over the country to compete and try to land their dream job, and he preys on their dreams and he exploits their dream for sexual gratification.

Now, it's not the victim's fault for not coming forward. But like you said, it was so open that everybody knew about it. And instead of doing something about it, they put their own self-preservation, and their own success, and their own access above doing the right thing. So Hollywood is so self-congratulatory and self-righteous. You see them at the award shows patting themselves on the back. They decide that they're the arbiters of what's right, what's appropriate in this country. And they're quick to point the finger when any of their enemies across the moral lines they've designated. But the fact that this went on for so long and they did nothing, completely undercuts their credibility when they champion the causes that they claim to want to champion.

GUILFOYLE: Juan, let's touch on the most important aspect of this which is the victims. There're many reasons why people don't come forward. They don't feel that they have economic power or a voice that will be heard. Many of them want to make sure that they can try to get a chance in the industry and it's very uncomfortable. Some people said they didn't want to come forward out of -- not to embarrass his family or wife or children, that type of thing. Or they feel just, you know, humiliated and self- shamed. I dealt a lot with that with sexual assault, you know, victims, people who were raped, sex abuse crimes, where they don't want to come forward because of the stigma.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I think there's so much changing in the country with regard to the relationship between men and women. But in the workplace, exactly what you say is at play, Kimberly, because I think lots of women saw this as an opportunity to get ahead. So we know about the women who have come forward and said Harvey Weinstein behaved inappropriately. What's not said oftentimes it's the women who may have had some relationship and it might have advanced their career. I even read in the paper today one woman had his initials tattooed on her because, you know, he made her career. But now, all of a sudden, I think people feel, like, you know what, Harvey Weinstein is, as Jesse said, a clear sexual predator.

And the question becomes not just Hollywood, but as we're seeing in the paper today, what about the politicians who were taking Harvey Weinstein's money, from the Clintons, to the Obamas. Why were those people silent? And again, you come back to the idea that -- you know what? He had power, he had money, and men like sex, and they want sex with younger woman, and here he had the opportunity to act in a way that said it's my prerogative. It comes with the power. You know on Wall Street, this is a problem. You read about people in Washington, and congressmen having affairs than saying to the mistress let's have an abortion even though he says that he is pro- life. And then you hear about things, I mean, like John F. Kennedy and all the women that were around that, or you hear about -- I mean, to me, a lot of what's going on in the college campuses where the colleges don't know how to deal when a young woman says that the guy behaved inappropriate.

GUTFELD: This is different in the sense that it is normalized. When you have a phrase called the casting couch and everybody assumes and jokes about it, that mean it is something that has become acceptable to a point where -- well, did he hit on you? Yeah. Oh, it's disgusting. I didn't tell anybody because everybody already knows that Harvey does that. So I didn't want to tell anybody. It grossed me out. But, you know, everybody knows. They joke about it on awards shows. So it became -- the hypocrisy that Jesse brings up is so true. This is an industry that lectures us on morality, on all kinds of morality, whether it's about sexuality, or gender, or climate change. But in this case, they're accepting something that is immoral because it is part of doing business.

WILLIAMS: But it's not just them now. I think it's been them forever.

GUTFELD: I agree.

WILLIAMS: I just think this is the way business was done among powerful men at a different time in a different generation. And at the moment, you see more women in the workforce, more women who are educated, and they have sufficient political leverage, Greg, to finally call people out. Now the question to me is, so why didn't NBC approve Ronan Farrow's story? Why did the New Yorker approve it, you know?

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: Or why didn't -- as I understand several years ago, there was the argument the New York Times had some of this. They said they didn't withhold the story. But, boy, it sure looks terrible.

GUILFOYLE: Well, NBC then -- you know, pushed back to say their side of it. They say this is a different story than what was presented to us. So that's an interesting factual analysis to see, what did he put forward, and who in fact made the call to not, you know, take that story and go with it to the point that it was buried and kept like this. But there's also intimidation that he did to people when they tried to cross him, or he felt they were trying to do something against him, like Ronan said he had that problem with him personally.

But I just want to touch on something too, because when you think about Roman Polanski, and now you see he's going to sex rehab in Europe. And as a prosecutor, I'm just telling you the first thing I'm thinking of, wow, this guy just skipped town. Where did he go in Europe? Is he going to be able to be brought back? I even contacted the Los Angeles district attorney's office where I used to work, and in terms of the sexual assault unit, you know, you're looking at, yes, misdemeanor battery, even if three years. Felony if there's rape when the victim is adult at the time. There's statute of limitations or aggravated rape, forcible rape of more than 2 victims, that sentence could be 15 to life. We don't know all the facts here, what's transpired, but it certainly warrants a full and thorough criminal investigation for assault of sexual misconduct, and what has been so far alleged in terms of the media. And so, if you're the LADA office or whether it took place in New York, they have to be checking in with that.

PERINO: But they have prevented him from leaving the country?

GUILFOYLE: Well, if they had an open case and we're aware, or we're able to go, or they were convening a grand jury or something of that nature, you can try to prevent, you know, somebody from leaving and putting out a warrant, but they might not have been there at this point. But when you see an investigation like this, I mean, I've had cases in front of a grand jury, an indictment just about to be returned in the Doug-Mullin case, and my two defendants fled. There was a high-speed chase and the whole deal. So you've got to be like on top of this. That's what I think because this just broke. Now they're getting on top of the investigation, and that's why this is a very important and compelling new story for so many angles.

GUTFELD: My guess is sex rehab is probably going to be a chateau in France. And you're not going to see for a while.

PERINO: And also -- can I say, I never knew what the phrase casting couch meant until this show.

(CROSSTALK) GUTFELD: That was in sitcoms.

PERINO: I actually didn't know what it was.


PERINO: Thank you for the education.

GUILFOYLE: Greg, what an educator. Coming up, five days after the Weinstein scandal broke, the Obamas and Hillary Clinton are finally saying something. What took them so long? Well, that's next. Also, President Trump will be giving a speech on tax reform in Pennsylvania. We're going to bring it to you live later this hour. We'll be right back. Stay with us.


WATTERS: Democratic hypocrisy at its worst. It's been days since the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, but it was only yesterday that Hillary Clinton and President Obama denounced their creepy Hollywood friend. Why? Jeffrey Tobin has this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This was widely known, Harvey Weinstein's really inappropriate behavior with women. The real question is why were the Clintons and the Obamas so close to him during the campaign when they were important. I think this is a real blot on the records of both the Obama and the Clinton families that they were so blind to this, willfully blind for so long.


WATTERS: And Kellyanne Conway was quick to label the former first lady when it comes to being a champion of women's rights.


UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt like a woman who ran to be commander-in-chief and president of the United States the first one ever, who talks about women's empowerment, took an awfully long time to give support to those women who are coming forward and has still, as far as we know, Bill kept the money. She needs to not be a hypocrite about women's empowerment. And what it means to be -- what has she done privately in her private life? She's on a book tour talking about herself in a campaign she lost. She's not talking about women's empowerment. She's not trying to help victims of sexual assault.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WATTERS: So, very interesting point from Kellyanne. But I want to talk about Jeffrey Tobin's point. First, he said it was willful blindness by the Clintons and the Obamas because all they cared about were the donations.

PERINO: Well, if it was an open secret, then I guess, yes, this is true. And they are hypocrites. The Wall Street Journal wrote today that hypocrisy is a price we pay for civilization, but hopefully you take a moment then to examine your own sanctimony before you do it again. I do wonder about the going forward -- one of the ways to deal with this is actually just a change in leadership at some of these companies. And so, you look at someone like Reese Witherspoon, who in her career and success has developed a production company. She did Big Little Lies, which is a big hit last year. She's optioned four more books in order to turn them into movies or television series. They're all written by women. She's casting more women. And maybe that is actually a way to stop the sexual extortion in Hollywood.

WATTERS: That's a great phrase, extortion, because that's what it is. Kimberly, let's talk about what Kellyanne said, the hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton. She waited days before coming out. And now as a champion of women's right, shouldn't she have been one of the first leaders to come out and condemn Harvey?

GUILFOYLE: Well, it certainly would have been compelling had she done so, but I'm not in her personal space to know what she was privy to, what she knew, when she found out. I know she's come out now. And obviously, they're very close relationship. No one disputes that fact. So I think it's important once you become aware of it to say something. But beyond that, people are talking about the campaign contributions, etcetera. But, you know, I think that's very tough to like chase that down. This money has been spent.


GUILFOYLE: You know, and a lot of it. And to try and figure out, OK, what is she supposed to personally give money out of her pocket back to replace? It does becomes a little bit tricky from like a forensic accounting standpoint. To be, OK -- well, this is where the Harvey money went, etcetera, etcetera.

WATTERS: Maybe she can donate it to the Clinton Foundation.

PERINO: But she didn't wait two seconds to comment on the Las Vegas massacre. She comments quickly on a lot of things. She wants to be there in the public eye. She's out selling her book. She wants to be a part of the conversation, and this is certainly a part of the conversation. So I think the criticism of her waiting to comment is justified.

WATTERS: How much do you think this is going to do to the Democratic Party, Juan? Because you know if this was a huge, famous, Republican donor, this would be a very different story.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think Democrats then would be in a position to be talking down, condescending to Republicans about lack of moral authority, and why aren't you speaking up. And we've seen that because Republicans have been affected, and not only in terms of modern media but -- you know what, Donald Trump, the president, is a guy who had said just horrible, vulgar things, and he was running for president. And guess what, Republicans made excuses. So -- or say, oh, you know what, oh, that's being overblown. Why was that tape released? And it was just politics. In this case, I think Kimberly is on to something when she said, if you're in the shoes of the Clintons or the Obama's, this guy is a major donor to the Democratic Party and to your cause. And so you're going to be slow to condemn someone who has been supportive of your efforts.

WATTERS: Right, naturally. And Juan brings up an interesting point. So NBC had no problem leaking the access Hollywood tape to the Washington Post, but according to Ronan Farrow, maybe had sat on this explosive story about Weinstein, Greg.

GUTFELD: Yeah. The funny thing is Trump is basically making the same -- in that video is making the exact observation that we are making. If you're in a position of power you can grab whatever. Anyway, I came up with a theory -- I didn't finish it. I came up with this theory a long time ago, you can see it in my book, the Bible of unspeakable truths, I call it the PPP, the progressive pig pass. People accepted Bill Clinton because his heart was in the right place even if his hands weren't.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness.

GUTFELD: And if you look like how Hugh Hefner was able to camouflage Playboy, which is objectifying women, it was pornography, as a feminist achievement. It was like -- somehow it's empowering to women to submit to male horniness. We want you to have the same amount of sex as we do. And what you're basically saying is we just want to have sex with you. So what you've done is you turn -- you've taken -- I guess, casual sex, or what was considered something of value. You now said, no, it's just like what we do, and that's empowering. It was a trick played by so-called male feminists, including people like Bill Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, and Hugh Hefner.

PERINO: And also on the progressive pigs patsy, what did Harvey Weinstein -- when it first all came out?

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: What did he say that he would do? He said please don't say anything bad about me, and I'm going to take a leave of absence, and put all of my efforts in to going against the NRA.

GUTFELD: He went out with the progressive pig pass so quickly, he goes, I'm going to fight Trump and fight the NRA, so please excuse me for being a swine.

WILLIAMS: He says at some point, oh, I grew up in the '60s. I grew up in the '60s, and this was the kind of culture, and this is just the way things were.

GUILFOYLE: It's no excuse.

WILLIAMS: No. Well, I mean, but you go back to John Kennedy, I don't think there's any question he was a huge playboy. We didn't write about it.

GUILFOYLE: But was he engaging in consensual acts or acts of sexual assault and battery? I'm going to say something really quick about the Obama family, I personally think that it's no coincidence that Malia was working there on an internship. And obviously, they say -- people are there that was privy to this. And then, also then, this comes out.

WATTERS: The timing is very unusual. Coming up, President Trump is in Pennsylvania to talk about his tax reform plan. We'll preview his big speech coming up later in the hour when we return.


PERINO: Fox News alert, President Trump is hitting the road again to pitch his tax reform plan, this time with a special focus on American truckers. The president will be speaking later this hour in Pennsylvania, and we will bring it to you live. He's expected to say the plan will give a big boost to the stock market and jobs. He tweeted this morning, quote, if congress gives us the massive tax cuts and reform I'm asking for, those numbers will grow by leaps and bounds. #MAGA. The president went on, it would be really nice if the fake news media would report the virtually unprecedented stock market growth since the election. Need tax cuts. Meaning there's a period there. Need tax cuts. Yes, exclamation point because he might just ran out of characters, Kimberly.

I think this is an interesting and good tactic to take the message narrowly to different groups of people. I do think he has one problem and he was pointing to it this morning in his tweets, and that is, he's taking credit for an economy that's doing really well. The unemployment rate down to 4.3 percent, stock market on a tear like record after record, people feeling pretty good about the economy, and yet, when you want tax cuts, you're basically trying to say it's because we have a problem that we need to fix. He's trying to make that case, but it's not all that easy to do.

GUILFOYLE: No, it's not, because he's almost, you know, suffering from the benefit of the good economy. And they're saying, "Well, wait a second. Let's not mess with it. If this are going well, you don't tinker with it back in the tool shop. You say, 'Let's let this go and run the path.'"

However, what he needs to say, and fashion a great message, which is this is going to give it the boost to go, you know, the rest of the way down the field. Like, this is what we need to continue this period of economic growth and prosperity and to continue to stimulate the economy with more available tax dollars in the hands of Americans, hardworking Americans so that they can spend and put it back into the, you know, financial flow and back into the economy and into the free market, to capitalize on it.

So he's got to be able to do that. But I like what we've talked about previously on the show you've mentioned, which is, you know, taking the message out there to these different groups, these different communities. Key core groups.

PERINO: And there's -- Bob Casey's a senator from Pennsylvania. He's a Democrat in a red state, up for reelection.

GUILFOYLE: And they could use the help.

PERINO: President Trump won Pennsylvania very handily.


PERINO: So I think that makes a lot of sense.

Greg, there's two ways to do tax reform. There's the big picture way, which is it'll be great for the economy. And let's just, like -- let's do this, because we believe what we sow Ronald Reagan do, that we'll be able to do this.

Then there's the minutiae. And you start talking about the real wages. People want that. But all the expensing and all the pass-throughs and all that stuff, and it starts getting real messy.

GUTFELD: There are two really key points from his plan that I think are important that need to be articulated. The media criticizes the repeal of the death tax as helping the rich. And that is absolutely absurd. You know, you know what helps the rich? Not robbing them.

This is -- the death tax is an immoral act. You are taking money that is already taxed from somebody. There are families that have saved this money for years who are now dead, and you are essentially digging into their grave and taking money from them. Whether you make $50,000 a year or $50 million a year, you know that it is immoral; it is wrong.


GUTFELD: It's absolutely wrong to do. And it's one of those things where, well, it doesn't affect me. So I don't really care about.

Well, there's a lot of, you know, illnesses that don't affect me, but you care about it. So you have to care about this, because it's immoral.

The second part is tax relief for small businesses. Because in America, small businesses, that's our national pastime. It's not football; it's not baseball.


GUTFELD: It's opening small businesses, because it entails risk. It's overcoming obstacles. It's resisting and championing against bureaucracy. So anything that helps small business people--

PERINO: We should be for.

GUTFELD: -- is something we should be pushing. Because, I mean, that's the nature of America, is starting these businesses. So he's got to -- he's got to talk about the small businesses and somehow be able to frame the death tax that it is not about helping the rich. It's actually a moral decision.

WILLIAMS: Well, I see so much hypocrisy, I just can't -- I just can't get over it. Because to me, what we're seeing here is that Donald Trump will stand there, and he'll speak to a group of truckers and he'll say, "Oh, this is, in fact, going to create more business. It's going to put more dollars in your pocket."

Answer: we don't know, and we don't think so. I man, right now it's overwhelming that this would benefit the very rich in American society. What you call the death tax, I call an estate tax, and 90 percent--

GUTFELD: It's a death tax.

WILLIAMS: -- of that benefit goes to the top 10 percent of earners.

GUTFELD: It's their money.

WILLIAMS: I know, but here's my point.

GUTFELD: You already paid taxes on it, Juan.


GUTFELD: You're stealing from them because they're rich.

WILLIAMS: No, because they're dead. And guess what? So you want--

GUTFELD: You're stealing from them because they're dead.

WILLIAMS: Hang on. You want -- you want to cement income inequality and give the children of the very rich even more money.

GUTFELD: It's their money!

WILLIAMS: No, it isn't.

GUTFELD: Yes, it is.

WILLIAMS: No, it isn't. It's the state's.

GUILFOYLE: No, he -- Juan wants to redistribute. He wants--

WILLIAMS: No, I don't want to redistribute.

GUTFELD: Take it from them, because they're dead.

WILLIAMS: I just said we don't need--

GUTFELD: At least you're honest. At least you're honest, Juan.

WILLIAMS: We are not think, I think -- I think that there was a decision made by the people who wrote the tax laws in this country that says we are a bootstrap country. You can earn your way up. And even the children of the rich.

GUTFELD: And then steal from them.

WILLIAMS: That's not stealing.

PERINO: Jesse, Juan's point might have been this. Greg Sargent in The Washington Post said that he asked somebody to run the math over at the Tax Policy Center, which I've got a few problems with them. But Tax Law Center basically said there are only 30 trucking companies that would actually be helped by this policy.

WILLIAMS: Yes, nobody's--

PERINO: So -- that it isn't as big as people are making it out to be.

WATTERS: And you can show me any study to prove whatever. It doesn't matter, because you're going to put people back to work, and you're going to give them more of the money that they've earned. So you can show me any study to make any point you want.

WILLIAMS: How are you going to put people back to work, Jesse?

WATTERS: Well, I'll give you a number of reasons, Juan. When corporate taxes are reduced, companies have more money, and then they hire and they reinvest. And that said--

WILLIAMS: That's exactly wrong.

WATTERS: How is that wrong? Have you ever run a company?


WATTERS: When you have more money, what do you do with it?

WILLIAMS: Let me just tell you something. You put it -- no, you give it back to the shareholders. You put it more in the hands of the corporate executives and the shareholders. It does not necessarily mean better jobs.

PERINO: We've got to run. We've got to run, because the president might be speaking soon, so Jesse, hold that thought.

WATTERS: I have so many better points.

PERINO: Coming up -- we're going to have to hear them tomorrow.

Coming up Eminem -- Eminem? -- unleashed.

WATTERS: That's his name.

PERINO: Thank you. Sorry. Spewing an anti-Trump freestyle rap that is causing quite a stir. That's next.


GUTFELD: Eminem, otherwise known as a poor man's Vanilla Ice, went after President Trump in a video from the BET Hip-Hop Awards on Tuesday. Like Michael Moore on a tricycle, you could see it coming a mile away:


EMINEM, RAPPER (rapping): We better give Obama props, because what we got in office now is a kamikaze that will probably cause a nuclear holocaust.

Racism's the only thing he's fantastic for.


GUTFELD: Well, he's changed my mind.

Yes, we get it, Trump's evil. This rap is about as dangerous as a Nerf dart. Of course, the media is hailing it as brave, culling the best lines from this predictable noise. I can't wait for Chris Cuomo's line-by-line analysis, with Fareed Zakaria nodding thoughtfully in agreement.

Me, I'm just happy Eminem has moved from threatening his mother or wife. No longer just a misogynist, he's a politically relevant misogynist. Good for him. I guess he learned something from Weinstein. Or "Winesteen."

Bottom line, Eminem's peer-approved rap makes "Morning Joe" sounded edgy. Not a single thought surprises you. He breaks less ground than a broken shovel. No wonder the media loves it. He's Brian Stelter with hair.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: By the way, who cares? I mean, this is what Eminem is supposed to do. You are a rap aficionado.

PERINO: That's true.

GUTFELD: You were in a--

PERINO: Pull the tape.

GUTFELD: Yes, pull the tape.


PERINO: You know what I thought was super edgy?


PERINO: He tried to rhyme the word "orange."

GUTFELD: Yes. That's -- you know.

PERINO: And there is no word that actually rhymes with "orange."


PERINO: But he gave it the old college try. '

GUTFELD: Yes, that's true.

PERINO: I don't -- I don't listen to rap. I did watch this.

GUILFOYLE: Peter can rap.

PERINO: Peter can--

GUTFELD: Yes, but we don't want to hear that.

PERINO: It's British.

WATTERS: It's more like poetry.


PERINO: Yes, it is. Beautiful.

Look, First Amendment, I'm for it. The reason I'm interested in it is because it is like you're having two different cultural conversations in America.


PERINO: Like the NFL--

GUTFELD: Absolutely.

PERINO: -- you see President Trump, I think, winning on that issue in the culture wars. And then you have this, and it's like there's these -- Americans are just talking past each other.

GUTFELD: Which is what we do well.

PERINO: Yes, I don't like it.

GUTFELD: It is, it is.

Juan, it is like two -- Scott Adams calls it two movies going on at the same time.

WILLIAMS: Sure, but you know what's -- that's why this struck me as effective. I disagree with you. I think, in fact, he said he speaks to white suburban kids, and he said he's going to draw a line in the sand. If you're a Trump supporter, you're not with him.

And I thought he put himself out there in a very interesting way and in that cultural divide that you and Dana are discussing, because he was very clear. He thinks this guy is destructive. He thinks that he is not a good president and leading us into World War III. I don't know how you can deliver, in terms of our culture and our music, a more powerful message at this moment, coming from a white rapper to white suburban kids.

GUTFELD: But it would've been interesting, Jesse, if it was clever. Because when I listened to it, it was like, you know, he calls him a racist. He says he makes mean jokes. He has extravagant -- it's like he was reciting--

PERINO: And a lot about male genitalia.

GUTFELD: Yes, but it was like he was rhyming from CNN. Like, this was MSNBC with a beat.

WATTERS: Yes, Eminem is better than that. He's a good artist, but that wasn't very good.


WATTERS: I have a lot of respect for Eminem as a rapper--

GUTFELD: I think he respects you, too, Jesse.

WATTERS: -- but not as a political commentator. Yes, I know.

And you know what? Detroit, his hometown, is a cesspool. I mean, Democrats buried that city. So let's figure out what's happened there.

PERINO: It's actually gotten a lot better of late.

WATTERS: It's gotten a lot better after Trump flipped that state.

PERINO: Republican governor.

WATTERS: Yes, red. Also the governor. There you go. But we'll take credit.

Second of all, I love Eminem, and he can rap whatever he wants. I just disagree with his opinion. I just think he's irrelevant now. And when you bash Trump, you become relevant. I thought he was retired. I hadn't heard from him in a while.

GUTFELD: Yes, he's like -- he's 44, which in rap years is 97. You didn't know that, did you, Kimberly?


GUTFELD: Usually, they get into acting at this point.

GUILFOYLE: Well, first of all, I don't think Vanilla Ice was that bad. I liked him.

WATTERS: He's not the Vanilla Ice. That's a bad analogy.


GUILFOYLE: A five point oh--

GUTFELD: The MC Hammer of rap.

WATTERS: Wait a second. Don't you dare disparage Eminem. He's a very talented rapper.

PERINO: I liked the interview he did on "60 Minutes."

GUTFELD: Insane Clown Posse, way better than Eminem.

WATTERS: Oh, my God. Send him e-mail.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, this was sort of predictable and kind of just -- I don't know, it was sort of sophomoric. And then, you know, with the middle finger thing. I have no good for this. I didn't like it, yes. Bring back Vanilla Ice.

PERINO: But I think -- but I think Juan's point about young audiences, it will be interesting to see what they think. I think they probably liked it.

GUTFELD: I don't think they care.

WILLIAMS: That's why it went viral. It went viral big-time.

GUTFELD: By the way, Juan, everything goes viral. That's -- that's a producer phrase.


WILLIAMS: I'm just telling you.

GUTFELD: "It went viral." "Viral" means 10 minutes.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. This has gone on and on.

GUTFELD: Last night.

WILLIAMS: And musicians love it. Musicians fight to have that kind of attention.

GUILFOYLE: Stop. Trump.


GUTFELD: We're hearing from Donald Trump.


GUTFELD: Here we go. Let's go.

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