Biden coronavirus task force co-chair: ‘Rebuilding public trust’ is foundation to beating COVID-19
Dr. Vivek Murthy breaks down Biden’s plan for handling the coronavirus on ‘Fox News Sunday.’
This is a rush transcript from “Fox News Sunday" November 15, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Chris Wallace.
Coronavirus cases surge across the country, as the health crisis gets tangled up in partisan politics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This is a red alert, all hands on deck.
WALLACE: Record numbers of cases and hospitalizations, challenging health care systems nationwide as President-elect Joe Biden makes fighting the virus his top priority and prepares to lead talks on a new COVID relief bill.
We'll ask former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, co-chair of Biden's coronavirus task force, about the transition's pandemic response.
Then -- huge rally to support President Trump's refusal to accept the results of the election as his legal team fights on.
Does the president have a case?
We'll ask former independent counsel Ken Starr and Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe.
Plus, Barack Obama settles scores in his new book. We'll ask our Sunday panel about the former president's thoughts on the rise of Donald Trump.
And our "Power Player of the Week," remembering game show legend Alex Trebek and the fun we had on jeopardy.
Do you dumb it down for celebrities?
All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And hello again from FOX News in Washington.
The coronavirus is coming back with a vengeance with every state in the nation now reporting increases. President-elect Biden has urged President Trump to do more to confront the crisis, calling the federal response woefully lacking.
On Friday, Mr. Trump broke his recent silence on the pandemic to promote progress on a vaccine, but he still refuses to concede the election or coordinate with the Biden team.
In a moment, we'll speak with the co-chair of the Biden coronavirus task force, former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
We begin this hour with FOX team coverage. Jacqui Heinrich is tracking the president-elect in Delaware, but let's start with the thousands of Trump supporter's in the streets of Washington this weekend.
David Spunt has that story from the White House -- David.
DAVID SPUNT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, good morning.
Just this morning, when referring to President-elect Joe Biden, President Trump tweeted, quote, he won before falsely claiming the election was rigged. Still no formal concession from President Trump and the Trump faithful will not give up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SPUNT: On his way to the links Saturday morning, the president drove through a crowd from across the country, who came to the nation's capital to show their support. Thousands marched from Freedom Plaza near the White House to the steps of the Supreme Court in outlook to voice frustration with the election results.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the United States of America! We're free and you're not taking it from us!
SPUNT: Demonstrations continued into the night as far right and far left groups clashed.
After a week hiatus from public remarks, on Friday, the president announced a vaccine would be available to the majority of Americans by April, but much sooner for those in need.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The vaccine will be distributed to front-line workers, the elderly, and high risk Americans immediately. It will be very -- a matter of weeks, get out very, very much ahead of schedule.
SPUNT: The announcement comes as "The Washington Post" reports at least
130 Secret Service agents assigned to the president have contracted COVID-
19 or are quarantining as a result of exposure.
On Saturday, President Trump took another crack at a COVID relief bill as infections rise nationwide and his time in the White House appears near an end.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
The Trump campaign continues to file legal challenges, though none have made a difference when it comes to the election outcome -- Chris.
WALLACE: David Spunt reporting from the White House -- David, thank you.
Now, let's bring in Jacqui Heinrich in Wilmington -- Jacqui.
JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, President-elect Joe Biden has more than four decades worth of friends in Washington lining up for jobs in his incoming of administration and the jockeying has begun.
But more than a week after his projected win, the General Services Administration still hasn't unlocked access to funds, agencies and information needed to reach full speed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REPORTER: Are you any closer to making a cabinet decision?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.
HEINRICH: Expectations are rising for President-elect Biden to announce his secretary of state and sources tell FOX News, former national security advisor Susan Rice is being pushed by former President Barack Obama.
Rice, already vetted as a member of Biden's VP short-list, brings institutional knowledge and clearances that could blunt the impact of delayed transition, but she warned of growing peril in a Saturday op-ed,
writing: Without access to critical threat information, no incoming team can counter what it can't see coming.
Rice may face a confirmation hurdle in the Senate and has competition in former deputy secretaries of state, Tony Blinken and William Burns, also Senator Chris Coons, who's actively vying for the job.
But team Biden is also foot tapping over lost time engaging with federal agencies about coronavirus, especially with respect to testing and potential vaccine distribution plans and they're considering legal action if things don't change soon.
JEN PSAKI, BIDEN TRANSITION ADVISER: We are not interested in having a food fight with the GSA administrator or anyone, really.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEINRICH: Biden's transition team says they are on schedule, chipping away at nearly 4,000 appointed roles to fill, but this week, they are opening some applications to everyday Americans -- Chris.
WALLACE: Jacqui, thank you.
And joining us now, Dr. Vivek Murthy, former surgeon general and co-chair of the Biden transition COVID task force.
Doctor, the latest numbers on the COVID surge are deeply alarming. Let's take a look at some of them. More than 184,000 new cases just on Friday.
That's up 76 percent over the past two weeks. More than 68,000 people now on hospitals and more than 1,400 deaths Friday.
Question: What's going on? What's causing this really troubling surge?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY, FORMER SURGEON GENERAL: Look, Chris, you're right that we are at an alarming phase of this pandemic, and these are staggering numbers that we never really thought we would see in terms of cases and hospitalizations, not to mention the overall death toll.
But what's happening is that a couple of things. One is we never really got our caseload now to a level that was truly manageable in the spring, and we didn't actually have a testing and contact tracing to prevent subsequent rises in infection. But what's happening now in particular is that with winter, as people move indoors, this is actually the perfect set up for the virus because we know it likes -- it's easier to spread indoors than outdoors.
But there's one last component here, which is really important, which is pandemic fatigue. And people are tired. We've been at this pandemic now from many months and I get that. And a part of that fatigue means that people are letting others into their bubble, they're getting together for in-person dinner parties, for game nights, and public health departments are now tracing more and more cases back to these kind of gatherings.
So, you put this all together and you see the explosive spread that we have.
WALLACE: So, what is the Trump administration doing wrong at this point given that a lot of this just seems to be baked into the cake and what specifically -- and I mean, specifically, will the Biden administration do better?
MURTHY: Well, there's few things for us to think about in terms of addressing the current surge. One thing I really want to emphasize is when you get to numbers that are this bad, the most immediate thing that we can do to reduce the spread, it actually lies in our behavior and the choices that we make. It turns out that wearing masks, keeping our distance from others, washing our hands, these seem almost too simple, but very powerful in actually reducing the spread.
But what Vice President -- what President-elect Biden has talked about in terms of his plan, what he wants to do differently when he wants them to touch (ph) for day one is really a plan that focuses on expanding our testing capacity so that we can do better surveillance testing and diagnostic testing, but also increase our contact tracing force so that we can contain an infection once we find it. He wants to increase the production of PPE or protective equipments so our healthcare workers all have masks and gloves when they need it. And he wants to really put clear guidance together, evidence-based guidance so that schools and businesses, but also state organizations, huge sports leagues and families know how to operate safely.
Chris, I should just say one more important here, which is that none of this is going to be possible if we don't rebuild public trust. That's really the most important foundation here. The way you do that is by communicating honestly, by leading with science and scientists in the face of this pandemic and ultimately by delivering results.
WALLACE: Is the delay in the transition -- because President Trump is contesting the election -- is that delay hurting the ability of the Biden administration to take over on January 20th in dealing with the COVID pandemic?
MURTHY: Well, it's very important, Chris, for the transition to be able to talk to the existing administration and the reason is that there thousands and thousands of career civil servants and political appointees who have been working very hard on this pandemic for many months now. They had plans that are in process. They had data that they collected that the public doesn't always have access to and to be able to see that data, see those plans is what's going to help us put together the best possible product in the end.
So, those dialogues are critical. They are -- you want to get them started as soon as possible. And a lot of work for us to do now still, even though we don't have to access to the departments. But we're going to need that as soon as possible to make this all work well.
WALLACE: One of the big questions, of course, is whether the country is going to have to engage in another lockdown. One of your colleagues on the COVID task force, the Biden COVID task force, talked this week about a possible four to six-week national lockdown, and President Trump responded to that.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, BIDEN CORONAVIRUS ADVISER: We can pay people to lose their jobs. We can pay small business. We can take care of city, state and county governments.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This administration will not be going to a lockdown. Hopefully, the -- whatever happens in the future, who knows which administration will be, I guess time will tell. But I can tell you, this administration will not go to a lockdown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Now, President-elect Biden says he's not thinking of a national lockdown. One of your colleagues on the task force said this weekend, you're thinking not of an on or off switch, but more of a dimmer. Having said that, the governor of New Mexico just issued a two-week stay at home measure. The governor of Oregon is talking about a partial two-week lockdown.
Can you honestly say, if things get bad enough, aren't we going to need a national lockdown?
MURTHY: Well, that's a measure of last resort, Chris, and I'm glad you raised this because the way we think about lockdowns, I think it's different now than it was in the spring. In the spring, when we didn't know a lot about COVID, we responded in a sense with an on/off switch. We shut things down because, you know, we didn't know exactly how this was spreading and where it was spreading.
We learned a lot more since then, that tells that the better way to think about these safety restrictions is more a dial that we turn up and down defending on severity, and that's really the key here, is applying this, these restrictions judiciously and precisely.
If you look at New York City, for example, they're applying not broader restrictions everywhere but looking at specific zip codes to see where the outbreak is severe. What we need, Chris, and the reason that you see so much variation in what states are doing is that we don't have a national alert system guided by the best possible evidence that can help states and localities determine when to dial up and down these restrictions. And we also don't have adequate resources for them to put these restrictions in place, namely schools, for example, which still don't have resources to expand class sizes, hire more teachers and improve ventilation.
If we just lock down the entire country without targeting our efforts, then we are going to exacerbate the pandemic fatigue people are feeling, you're going to hurt jobs and the economy, you're going to shut down schools and hurt the education of our children. So, we go to approach this with a precision of a scalpel rather than the blunt force of an ax.
WALLACE: Then there is the issue of the vaccine, which seems to be making remarkable progress. President Trump talked on Friday about getting it out as quickly as possible, starting perhaps even in December, but then he talked about Governor Cuomo of New York who has said that he wants to check any vaccine the Trump administration delivers.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He doesn't trust the fact that it's this White House, this administration. So, we won't be delivering it to New York until we have authorization to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: What do you think of President Trump's statement singling out New York for a delay in the vaccine? And how does the Biden transition, administration plan to be one (ph) with getting out the vaccine and also dealing with the issue of people's concern about the safety, the reliability of actually getting vaccinated?
MURTHY: Well, Chris, you're bringing up the most challenging part of this pandemic response, which is how to deliver that vaccine. You know, we vaccinated Americans for many years in our country, but the campaign we're going to have to build to vaccinate enough people, to create herd immunity in America will be the most ambitious vaccination campaign I believe in our country's history. And being that requires people to trust that the vaccine is safe and that it's effective.
Unfortunately, we know from recent polls that a significant number of people are worried that the process of developing the vaccine, approving it may have been politicized. So, now, the onus is on us to be as transparent as possible and helping them understand what the scientists say, having experts review the data, making that data readily, so that even people outside the government can review it.
That's what we're going to have to do, and ultimately, the way we allocate this vaccine has to be determined based on needs. And that and that alone, we can't afford to let politics creep in to decisions we make around the vaccine, because otherwise, we're going to put lives at stake.
WALLACE: Dr. Murthy, thank you. Thanks for your time this week, and then we'll, of course, be tracking the work of your task force.
MURTHY: Well, thank you so much, Chris. It's really good to be with you today.
WALLACE: Up next, we'll discuss President Trump's legal fight to contest the 2020 election with two leading experts on constitutional law. Does the president have a case?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Twelve days after the election, President Trump still refuses to concede or to begin the transition to President-elect Biden. But so far at least his legal challenges to the vote count have had little success. We want to discuss the state of play with two of the country's top legal minds, former independent counsel Judge Ken Starr and Laurence Tribe, a Harvard constitutional law professor.
Professor Tribe, before we get into specific cases, what you think of President Trump's overall effort to litigate the election and to hold up the transition in the meantime?
LAURENCE TRIBE, HARVARD UNIVERSITY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR: I think his overall effort is dangerous, even though we know it's going to fail.
The Republicans themselves know that President Trump's claims that Biden's votes were fraudulent are without merit because if those claims were true, then those Republicans too would have been elected fraudulently or mistakenly because they were the same ballots.
Now, if we know that Trump is going to lose in the courts, and we do, why should we care? The reason we should care is that he is undermining democracy because there are millions of people who will believe him even though there is nothing in his arguments and no evidence to back them.
WALLACE: Let me bring in Judge Starr.
A Department of Homeland Security committee, a federal, state and local officials issued a statement this week. I want to put some of it up on the screen.
They called the election "the most secure in American history" and said, "there is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."
Judge, what do you think of the president's effort to hold up the transition while he litigates the election vote counts?
Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel: It's a very important process and what we've just heard from the distinguished Professor Tribe, I think, is a
-- gives new meaning to rhetorical hyperbole.
Our system is designed to check. Let's check it out. And a lawsuit was filed just on Wednesday in Michigan. Let's let this process run. A lawsuit was just filed by the legendary Lin Wood in Georgia. Don't mess with Lin Wood. Let's find out.
In the United States, we allow the jury to hear all the evidence. And that's what's happening right now. Don't rush to judgment. It's important, especially given the fact that so many tens of Americans feel right now disenfranchised. So let's get the facts in, allow this litigation to run its course, just as in Bush v Gore it ran for 37 days.
WALLACE: OK, Judge Starr, it is now 12 days since the election. What is the best single case that you think the Trump legal team has out there and would it be of a sufficient dimension, would it switch enough votes in that one state to overturn the vote count and the electoral vote in that state?
STARR: Well, let's just take Michigan. The lawsuit that was filed -- and, again, we have to let the lawsuit run its course. The lawsuit, if it is meritorious, that's the "if," we need to know, would change over 1 million votes. In Georgia, ditto. And, of course, Georgia itself has a state audit underway. That's exactly right. There will be a recount in Georgia. If you take all these together, Pennsylvania, allegations in Pennsylvania, these are allegations.
What we do know is in Pennsylvania, as Justice Samuel Alito indicated, I'm going to embellish her, utterly unconstitutional. And we've seen changes, including Gavin Newsom in California, just condemned by a state court just for doing what he did, this unprecedented flood of mail-in ballots. All the more reason why, in this election, we need to check.
WALLACE: President -- or, President, Professor Tribe, I've got presidents on the mind these days, you say that President Trump's lawsuits are less than frivolous. Is there any legal merit to what you've just heard Judge Starr say?
TRIBE: Absolutely none. He says that what I have been saying gives new meaning to hyperbole. What he's been saying gives new meaning to, dare I say it, BS. There's nothing in any of these lawsuits. He says, let the jury speak. The jury of an unprecedented magnitude, 160 million Americans, has spoken. You can file lawsuits until the cows come home. And there's no end to it.
But it's nothing like Bush v. Gore. There they were recounting, not just counting, and there was a 537 vote margin. And when the U.S. Supreme Court said it's time to stop the recounting in accord with the law of Florida, I didn't agree with that, but that at least was a legal judgment.
What's being asked for now is simply to undermine the belief of tens of millions of people in the conclusion that President Trump's own Department of Homeland Security reached after looking more closely than any of these courts possibly can at all the ballots, all the processes and concluded that it was the most secure election in American history.
It's time to move on. We know that Trump won't. He's going to be out there yelling and screaming and complaining.
WALLACE: Gentlemen, let me ask you about another possible legal strategy that we know that President Trump has actually discussed. And the idea would be to tie up the recounts -- the vote counts in several states so that the secretaries of state in those area (ph) states would not be able to certify electors.
And then the argument goes that state legislatures, in these cases, Republican state legislatures, could step in and they could certify Trump electors, and override the will of the people in that state who had elected, by a majority, Biden electors.
Whether you think that's going to happen or not, Judge Starr, is that constitutional?
STARR: Well, the legislature does have the ultimate authority, as we know, under the Constitution to determine how the electors are chosen. However, in each of the states there are going to be state laws that cabin that discretion and I've seen that a number of Republican legislatures in different states, at least four states, have said we would not do any such thing, so I think it's more of a theoretical possibility.
If I may respond just very briefly to what Larry (ph) said earlier, I'm really astonished that his view is every one of those votes is a legal vote. And I think that's the underlying assumption, and that assumption needs to be tested.
We had this unprecedented use, this flood tide of mail-in ballots and what we do know, everyone has heard, if his or her ears are open, anecdotal evidence, anecdotal, not proof, anecdotal evidence that people who should not have received those ballots received them.
Lots of stories. Let's test the stories as opposed to dismissing them. And then saying with all due respect that this is a dangerous process. No, this is a lawful process. This is to bring the rule of law into the election process and then let's accept the judgment of the courts once the court have ruled.
Larry (ph) may be right, but he may not be right.
WALLACE: Professor Tribe, really two questions there. First, mine, which is this idea of state legislatures coming in and overriding the will of the people in that state and in these cases where Biden is ahead, choosing Trump electors rather than Biden electors. And then also if you could respond to Judge Starr.
TRIBE: Sure. As to the first, I think Judge Starr pretty much had it right. That it's these state legislatures that have made careers, they are not going to risk their own political future by trying to override the overwhelming views of their own constituents and besides, the state legislature is itself a creature of state law and under those state laws, the governors have veto power.
As to the point that Judge Starr has just made about these anecdotes, I've heard the anecdotes. When they are tested in court, every one of them has been shown empty or has been withdrawn. There are cases all over the country of people saying, woops (ph), I made a mistake.
So the fact is that these anecdotes have already been tested in court. The Trump legal team is about 1 for 19 in terms of outcome. Let's get on with it.
We've had a peaceful succession ever since Adams turned the presidency over to Jefferson. It's time to move on.
And I don't think Judge Starr has ever answered the point that it undermines democracy to get tens of millions of people to believe in a conspiracy theory that is empty.
WALLACE: Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there.
Judge Starr, Professor Tribe, thank you both. Thanks for your analysis and, of course, we will all be watching as the legal battle continues. Thank you, gentlemen.
Up next, we will bring in our Sunday group to discuss the risks posed by delays to the Biden transition. Plus, the president's Pentagon purge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Coming up, President Trump holds out on conceding as he pursues a legal fight over election results.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT: My hope and expectation is that the American people do know AND do understand that there has been a transition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel how a delayed transition could affect national security.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): President Trump is 100 percent within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal option.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT ELECT FOR THE UNITED STATES: Well, I just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: President-elect Biden and Senate Majority Leader McConnell with very different takes on the Trump campaign's legal challenge to the vote count in several states.
And it's time now for our Sunday group.
Guy Benson of Fox News Radio, Fox News correspondent Gillian Turner, a former member of the national security council and to both Presidents Bush
43 and Obama, and former DNC chair Donna Brazile.
Guy, publicly, the vast majority of Republican officials are giving President Trump the time and space to litigate the vote counts in several states. The question I have is, privately, are some of these same Republican officials beginning to lose their patients with the Trump effort?
GUY BENSON, "THE GUY BENSON SHOW" AND FOX NEWS
CONTRIBUTOR: I wouldn't necessarily use the term lose their patients, but I think there's an acknowledgment in private that the election is over and Joe Biden has won it, right? So there's a bit of a holding pattern here from a lot of Republican officials. They don't want to cross the president. They don't want to get out in front of the president and say it's over, time to concede, let's all move on. But you're hearing them say things like, OK, perhaps these briefings ought to take place now. And it seems like the president has a few times gotten sort of close to the line of acknowledging what happened and on Friday in his press conference he caught himself. He almost said, I hope the Biden administration doesn't go into lockdown. Then he stopped. He said, well, I hope whatever happens in the future, we'll see what happens, right? And we saw the tweet earlier talking about how Biden had won and then just moments ago he sort of backtracked saying, oh, that's only in the eyes of the media.
I think that many, many Republicans don't want to infuriate Trump's base.
They don't want to get side was with the president.
WALLACE: Right.
BENSON: But I think it's clear what has actually happened here.
WALLACE: Then there is, as you mentioned, the delayed transition, which is stopping President-elect Biden from getting his presidential daily brief and stopping the Biden transition, the teams in general from getting access to classified information.
Republican Senator James Lankford spoke out on that this week. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): There is no loss from him getting the briefings and to be able to do that. And if that's not occurring by Friday, I will step in as well and to be able to push him to say this needs to occur so that regardless of the outcome of the election, whichever way that it goes, people can be ready for that actual task.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Gillian, is there a legitimate national concern here about the delay in the Biden transition getting access to some of this information?
GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL
STAFFER: So, Chris, I have yet to talk to a single source this week at DOD, serving in the military, in the international security policy space, or in the intelligence community who says they think this is a good idea, that the Trump administration blocking the incoming Biden administration from getting access to classified documents is a good idea, or one that makes the nation less safe.
To the contrary, they're all lining up down the row saying, this is not a good thing. It makes the Biden presidency less prepared to protect the homeland from day one. I will also say that having worked on the last transition between the W. Bush administration to the Obama administration, I was in the White House than at the National Security Council, we started prepping classified briefings for the incoming national security team more than six months out. That's widely considered to be the gold standard. This ain't that.
WALLACE: Donna, President-elect Biden has been playing down the fact he's not getting these daily intelligence briefings, saying it would be helpful but it's not necessary.
However, his new White House chief of staff, Ron Klain, took a sharper tone this week.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON KLAIN, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: He is entitled, under the statute, to get those kinds of briefings. The vice president-elect's entitled to get those kinds of briefings. And hopefully they will be forthcoming very soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Donna, privately, how angry, how frustrated is the Biden team with the fact that they can't get going on this transition?
DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR AND FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, as you recall, Chris, during the long saga of 2000 that I was involved and as campaign manager for Al Gore, then President Clinton began to offer briefings to the incoming president, George W. Bush. I think it's vital that President-elect Biden and his team have access to this information for the same reasons Gillian just said, this is about our security. The national security of the entire United States.
Yes, there's a degree of frustration, but I can tell you this, based on my conversations with transition officials, they're moving full speed ahead.
They've assembled a very, very experienced team of people to begin working expeditiously, but they're waiting for the GSA to turn over the keys.
WALLACE: Gillian, there was also a dramatic shake-up this week at the Pentagon. President Trump fired Defense Secretary Esper and two of his undersecretaries also were forced out, replaced by hard-core Trump loyalists.
What's going on there? Is this just a question of retribution for people who were blocking the Trump agenda, or do you think it's clearing the way for some -- some dramatic policy moves in these last two months?
TURNER: It's the latter according to sources who were working at the Pentagon, who were active-duty military. Right now, today, it's the -- the mass purge is less about political retribution from President Trump and it is allegedly more about seeing through some of his core campaign commitments from four years ago specifically. We're told that replacing the secretary of defense with acting Secretary Chris Miller and then below him bringing in Doug McGregor as his sort of right-hand man is specifically aimed at getting all American troops out of Afghanistan in the next two months. This is something we were told the president is deeply, deeply committed to. Whether he can actually make this happen in the next two months and do it safely remains to be seen. But we are told, Chris, by multiple sources, also not just me, I've been working with Jennifer Griffin and others on this story all week, this is a very specific policy aim, these moves, likewise, so to the purges over the intelligence community.
WALLACE: Gillian, let me follow up with you on that because, one, I talked to a top Pentagon source this week who said they very much doubted we could get our 4,500 troops out between now and January 20th and that it raised serious questions about it saying that it would really weaken our ability to negotiate a deal with the Taliban and to protect the Afghan government.
So, first of all, what about the merits of pulling out all of our troops from Afghanistan before the end of the Trump presidency. And the second thing is they talked about the possibility that this was clearing the way for whether it was the U.S. or Israel, an attack on Iran's nuclear structure.
TURNER: So I think both things are correct, Chris, there are serious questions, as your source told you, about the ability to pull out so many troops, just under 5,000, in a few weeks. But people tell us, despite this, this is something that President Trump and his core team of inner advisors is really intent on doing and they believe that if there is any iota of getting it done, they now have the people in place who can facilitate it.
Whether this sets up the Biden administration in a good way to prepare them to protect the homeland and the national security interest in the Middle East remains to be seen. On the Iran nuclear issue, the Biden team has basically set as of now that they are going to try and rejoin the Iran nuclear deal. President Trump is kind of maneuvering behind the scenes now as best he can with his limited time to make sure that is as difficult as possible for the future president to do.
WALLACE: All right, panel, we need to take a break here, but when we come back, Barack Obama's new book and his claim that President Trump's refusal to recognize the election results is putting democracy to the test.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The president doesn't like to lose and never admits loss. Republican officials who clearly know better are going along with this, are humoring him in this fashion.
It is one more step in delegitimizing, not just the incoming Biden administration, but democracy generally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Barack Obama beginning the tour to launch his new book with sharp words about the refusal of President Trump and top Republicans to concede the 2020 election. And we're back now with our panel.
Donna, what do you expect from Barack Obama on what's going to be a pretty big and exhausting book tour, both in terms of settling scores with Donald Trump and in terms of building support for President-elect Biden?
BRAZILE: Well, I think he's going to do the latter first. He's going to try to help Joe Biden heal the country, to bring the country together. What he's saying in the book is that our challenges are -- are deep. Our divisions are deep. Our challenges are daunting. But yet he remains faith -
- hopeful in this next generation.
I think it's a very prophetic book. Look, like "Dream of our Fathers," the audacity of hope, this is a road map to the future. Once again the president is weaving his own journey, a really a wonderful American journey into a narrative that shapes the America -- the creed, the future. And I think it's -- it's a good read and I'm looking forward to seeing everything in this book, including the photos that I'm sure many of us will be surprised to see.
But, overall, this is an opportunity to help reshape this dialogue about bringing the country together.
WALLACE: Guy, I -- from what we've seen so far, though, there is some score settling in Obama's book. I want to read this excerpt, rather extensive excerpt. "It was as if my very presence in the White House had triggered a deep-seated panic, a sense that the natural order has been disrupted, which exactly what Donald Trump understood when he started peddling assertions that I had not been born in the United States and was thus an illegitimate president. For millions of Americans spooked by a black man in the White House, he promised an elixir for their racial anxiety."
Guy, do you think that's a fair analysis?
BENSON: I think that this is, what, the third book by Obama about Obama with apparently a fourth one still to come. This one clocks in at 800 pages, almost, so there's a lot to say, apparently, from the former president. And I can understand why he bristles at President Trump for a number of reasons. I think the birtherism stuff he has legit beef there. I think a lot of it, though, is, President Trump won in what really amounts to a repudiation in a lot of ways of the Obama presidency. He was expecting his successor, Hillary Clinton, to carry on his legacy. Instead it was disrupted in a very serious way. And the president, the current president, was able to dismantle a lot of what Obama did because Obama so often governed by fiat and you could just undo it with executive orders, a lot of what the former president had done, the previous president, Barack Obama.
So I think that there's definitely score settling here. I read another excerpt where he was complaining about Senate Republicans and, again, sort of playing the race card there and said oh I dispatched Joe Biden to talk to them because they didn't want to make it seem like they were doing a deal with me because I'm, you know, a black rumored Muslim is what he says in the book. And many Republicans on the Senate side that I've spoken to this week cannot roll their eyes hard enough at that version of events.
WALLACE: Gillian, one of the things that has surprised me is that so far President Trump, who we know has his finger on the Twitter trigger, has not responded to any of what we've seen so far from Barack Obama. Do you expect that to last, or is this going to end up, particularly with Obama on "60 Minutes" tonight, is this going to end up in in a presidential war of words?
TURNER: I mean, if I had to put money on it, I would bet, Chris, that President Trump is really itching to punch back and will do so imminently.
I was trying to think of reasons why he might not have done so already. And the only thing I can come up with is that President Obama is right now kind of getting back out on the campaign trail, right? So he's much -- he's been out there much more lately.
He's drawing a lot of attention to what president -- what former Vice President Biden did during his administration. The president doesn't want to focus on that. He doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that former President Obama has very high approval ratings among his own party, among the Democrats right now. Maybe that's why the president is staying silent?
I mean this is my guess, my two cents, so it's probably worth, you know, about 1 cent, but there you have it.
WALLACE: Yes, it would also boost book sales.
TURNER: Oh, yes, that's a good point.
BRAZILE: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: And, you know, I know he's been advising a number of these critical books to stay silent on it. But having said that, that's never stopped him in the past.
Donna, in the time we have left, I want to turn to another subject.
It looks almost certain, I think all of us agree, that President-elect Biden will take the oath of office on January 20th.
BRAZILE: Yes.
WALLACE: I think it also is very likely -- I know you're going to push back here but don't just for the sake of this -- that the Republicans are going to keep control of the Senate. I understand it comes down two races, special elections in Georgia. But the likelihood is that -- that Mitch McConnell is the Senate majority leader in January.
Question, if that is the case, President Biden, a Republican-head Senate, how much will that curtail Biden's plans for his cabinet, and Biden's plans for his agenda?
BRAZILE: Well, first of all, the Democrats must leverage all of their political power, whether in the House and the White House. Clearly, Mitch McConnell is going to continue to be a key player. He's been a key player since 2006. He said in 2000 -- I believe 2009, 2010, that is only objective was to make Barack Obama a one-term president. Barack Obama won a re- election.
He has worked with Joe Biden in the past. He worked with Joe Biden on a tax deal. He's worked with Joe Biden before on nominations.
I do believe that he -- that the two of them have a great relationship.
They know each other. They've known each other for 40 years. I believe that the Democrats will be able to work with Mitch McConnell on a couple of issues, including infrastructure, keeping the government going and maybe lowering prescription drugs, health care, and some other issues.
WALLACE: Guy, I'll be curious to hear your reaction to this from a more conservative perspective. How hard do you expect McConnell and Republican senators to go after President Biden? For instance, just on the cabinet, how hard do you think that they will refuse if Biden were to nominate them, people like Elizabeth Warren for Treasury or Bernie Sanders for Labor or Susan Rice for the State Department?
BENSON: Well, I actually think that Joe Biden might not be totally horrified at the idea of a Republican Senate so he doesn't have to pick people that he doesn't really want to put in his cabinet and blame it on the Republicans. I think Susan Rice, if she's put up, I think would be more likely than the other two names that you mention. I think the Republicans might draw a line there and have a big fight.
But, Chris, despite your admonition, I'm just to say, Republicans cannot look past Georgia, right? There is still a legitimate chance that Democrats could win the Senate and have full control of the government and a 50/50 Senate is a Kamala Harris Senate, a Chuck Schumer Senate. And for conservatives, anyone right of center, that has to be priority number one.
So I'm not willing to look past the fifth of January yet because there is an absolutely crucial task yet to be accomplished down in Georgia. And as we just seen, a Democrat can compete if not win statewide in that state, as Joe Biden has just shown.
WALLACE: Thirty seconds, Donna. What are the chances -- well, I don't know, you're not going to tell me -- what are the chances realistically that Democrats can flip those two seats in Georgia?
BRAZILE: It's an uphill battle but the -- there's a map there because Stacey Abrams invested early, the Democrats are backing her and all of the other down ballot organizations that are helping her. There's a great chance that the Democrats can take that purple state and turn it blue.
WALLACE: So, for those of you who are already exhausted by this never ending election campaign, we have two more months until January 5th when the special elections take place in Georgia.
Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday. Plenty to talk about as we go forward.
Up next, our "Power Player of the Week." We remember Alex Trebek and his presence in millions of Americans' living rooms for more than three decades.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Last week we were saddened by the news that Alex Trebek, the long- term host of the game show "Jeopardy!" had died at age 80. But it was more than the loss of someone we all enjoyed watching because in 2012 I was invited to be on the show and got to spend some time with its legendary host.
Once again, he's our "Power Player of the Week."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALEX TREBEK, HOST, "JEOPARDY!": If I can ring in with my ballpoint pen faster than the contestants and come up with the correct response before they do, I'm feeling pretty good.
WALLACE (voice over): Alex Trebek talking about the appeal of watching "Jeopardy!"
ANNOUNCER: This is "Jeopardy!"
WALLACE: The show he hosted for more than 8,000 episodes over almost 37 years. As for what makes a good contestant --
TREBEK: Ashley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is an escalator?
TREBEK: Yes.
On our show they do well because of their intelligence and their skills in their game playing abilities.
WALLACE: That was of great interest because "Jeopardy!" came to Washington back in 2012.
TREBEK: Read the final -- the scores at the end of the double "Jeopardy!"
round.
WALLACE: To tape five shows with so-called power players, including me.
Trebek gave me a few pointers.
TREBEK: Keep in mind that you'll see it up there and you'll hear it as I read it, so it's reinforcing the clue for you.
WALLACE (on camera): And I'm just seeing, if I hit this, it lights up?
TREBEK: Yes, and you must respond before the last light goes out.
WALLACE (voice over): It turns out the signaling device is as important as knowing the answer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all about this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's all about this.
TREBEK: You can't ring in until I have read the last syllable of the last word in the clue. And if you ring in a fraction of a second too early, you've locked yourself out for a fraction of a second.
WALLACE: I learned all this the hard way during my practice game with Dr.
Oz and BBC Anchor Katy Kay.
There were some ups.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fifth of liquor is one-fifth of this measure.
WALLACE (on camera): (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.
WALLACE (voice over): And downs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is (INAUDIBLE).
WALLACE: One of the joys of "Jeopardy!" is how little it's changed over more than three decades. But there was a firestorm in 2001 when Trebek shaved his mustache on a whim.
TREBEK: Thank you, Johnny.
Hello, ladies and gentlemen.
We're on the verge of war and yet there's so much being made of Alex shaved his mustache.
WALLACE (on camera): You seem as if you know all the answers to all the questions.
TREBEK: Do you doubt that I know?
WALLACE: Do you dumb it down for celebrities?
TREBEK: Shhh.
WALLACE (voice over): In fact, Trebek said he could get about two-thirds of the questions right. And as he got older, he admitted, they didn't come as quickly to him.
TREBEK: People who come to our tapings often ask, how would you do, Alex, if you were a contestant on the show? And I tell them, honestly, a good 30- year-old would clean my clock.
WALLACE: Trebek had other interests. He was deeply involved in World Vision, which builds schools and provides health care and clean water in third world countries. He was 71 when we talked.
WALLACE (on camera): Any thoughts of retiring?
TREBEK: Yes, I have been thinking about retiring, but I'm torn because I enjoyed doing the show so much. A lot of people have been telling me, Alex, you've got to go for at least 30. You know, you've just done 28 now, at least do two more. So that has a nice ring to it. Put in your 30 and go help people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: Of course, Trebek never retired and went on to set the Guinness World Record for hosting the most episodes of a game show, including the one I'll never forget, winning $50,000 for charity eight years ago. In a long career, that was one of the highlights.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
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