Ben Carson on the divide between communities and law enforcement

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 25, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: That's amazing. That's an amazing story. Thank you, Bret.


RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT: People have got to know whether or not their presidents a crook. Well, I'm not a crook.


That was back in 1973. And the reporter who broke that story about the scandal that was known as Watergate thought that Robert Mueller was going to be about to do a John Dean yesterday. Watch.


JOHN DEAN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I began by telling the president that there was a cancer growing on the presidency. And if the cancer was not removed, the president himself would be killed by it. I also told him that it was important that this cancer be removed immediately because it was growing more deadly every day.


MACCALLUM: And the reporter who broke this story was hoping for a repeat.


CARL BERNSTEIN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: What he has his probity which is the exact opposite of what the president in his dangerous words and actions, and the way he comports himself in a reckless way, Mueller is exactly the opposite.


MACCALLUM: But a new piece in Slate, among other places today said this in the headline: This Was No Watergate. Still, Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler stepped to the podium after listening to all that Robert Mueller had to say to convince otherwise.


REP. JERROLD NADLER, D-N.Y.: Today was the Watershed day and telling the facts to the American people. With those facts, we can proceed. And we face the time of great danger. Richard Nixon said he thought that the president was a dictator. He said if the president does it that means it's not illegal. President Trump echoed that yesterday.


MACCALLUM: So, now you've got Nancy Pelosi who spent the last several weeks battling the Squad, now has to sort of hit the brakes on the impeachment crowd. Sources telling Fox News that the Speaker told Democrats, "Do what you have to do for your districts, but don't disparage those who are not for it. She said not to make it a thing about their patriotism or lack thereof if they are not for it."

Joining me now, two Republican lawmakers who oversaw yesterday's hearings. Congressman Devin Nunes, ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. And Congressman Doug Collins, ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. Good to see both of you today, gentlemen. Thank you very much for being here.

You know, Congressman Nunes, let me start with you. I want to go back and play something that you said the other night on Hannity, and kind of get your thoughts about in retrospect now having watched this whole thing play out if you still think this is true. Watch.


REP. DEVIN NUNES, R-CALIF.: I fear what's going on right now is that Mueller's working with a lot of his staff who are back-channeling to the Democrats. And so, it is very possible that Mueller is going to have a few little sound bites that are going to give the Democrats exactly what they wanted.


MACCALLUM: Do you still think that might have happened?

NUNES: Yes, I do. I think they were working with the Democrats. I think when you look at Mueller's team, it was a team that we still don't know how that got put together, and that was one of the things that Mr. Mueller didn't ask about.

I think what we didn't expect is that Mr. Mueller didn't seem to know a whole lot about the report. I know he had time to repair for it. And then, you know, during our hearing it was a little odd because they had another lawyer -- Mueller's deputy was sworn in, which is really unprecedented on our committee.

Now, we said that we weren't going to ask the other lawyer any questions but -- and we didn't and neither do the Democrats. But it was a little odd to see the special counsel there with a lawyer sitting next to him. So, there was definitely back-channeling going on, and I think, you know, the big problem was is I think they probably figured that Mr. Mueller was going to talk about this Office of Legal Counsel issue that happened in Mr. Collins' committee.


NUNES: And that was problematic. And then, luckily, you know, somebody got to Mr. Mueller during the break and he had to come out and correct it during our committee.

MACCALLUM: Yes, Representative Collins, you questioned him strongly as well.


MACCALLUM: Were you surprised -- you know, there's this sort of feeling that he was going to come in there and that he was going to have these sort of -- you know, phrases that he was going to say that would be sort of sound bite ready and he would rattle those off and that they would be useful.

I just wonder how much Democrats actually knew about the way that Robert Mueller was going to approach this and how -- you know, how this was going to go? It felt to me like they might have been quite surprised by how it actually came out because it was not a strong performance.

COLLINS: No, it's not. In fact, what's really amazing to me is I think the House on the Judiciary Committee, I think they're just so delusional about what they wanted the Mueller report to say and what it didn't say. And then, they tried to convince themselves with a new narrative since then. You know you get the top of the show, you said Mr. Nadler -- his own words were it's a Watershed moment.


COLLINS: Well, I'm not sure he's been to a lot of Watershed moments because yesterday was not one that you would put into that category because Mr. Mueller was honest. In fact, here's two things that came out of it. Number one, the collusion and conspiracy. We put that to rest yesterday. That is those one in the same, so any Democrats such as the chairman of Intel, Mr. Schiff, who said there's collusion in plain sight even some of my members on Judiciary. That's just a false narrative for a lot of the American people. Mr. Mueller put that to event.

Every time my Judiciary Committee -- any Democrats tried to walk down obstruction. They even use a little charts and put green checkmarks. Mr. Mueller would come and say, "You know, no, I don't subscribe to your analysis, kick it out.

So, these are the kind of problems you saw yesterday. They were hoping for something they've not been able to do and it fell flat.

MACCALLUM: Yes, you know, and Congressman Nunes, when you were talking about Fusion GPS, when you talked about some of the players involved, Glenn Simpson and the questions that were not asked as part of this investigation in terms of the origins. It seemed like they had cherry-picked moments that they weren't interested in, and then even outside the timeline, you know, things that happened before and things that happened shortly after, they were not -- he was not interested in or certainly not informed. But were you surprised that he didn't seem to know what Fusion GPS was?

NUNES: Yes, I was very surprised at that. And also, this has been the narrative for a long time about this Trump tower meeting that lasted for a total of 20 minutes.


NUNES: Even in -- even in his report, he says that. So, how can you not know? If you've looked at everything to do with that Trump Tower meeting, you know that House Republicans have been talking about this for months. It was in our report that we wrote about Glenn Simpson in Fusion GPS being meeting with Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was the lawyer that met with the Trump Tower -- at the Trump Tower meeting that supposedly had the dirt.

So, you know, the fact remains that Glenn Simpson who was working for the Democrats, working for the Clinton campaign met with that lawyer. We think, at least, three times that we know of right around the same time possibly more.

So, how do you not put that in your report? How do you not interview Glenn Simpson? I mean, so there's so many questions that need to be answered, still.

MACCALLUM: Yes, and Representative Collins, they just raised questions about -- you know, if Robert Mueller wasn't that intimate with the details of all of this, and didn't know who some of these players were, you know, who was running the show here?

And I wonder now if Democrats don't look at yesterday and say, you know what, we should have put the attorneys out there. We should have asked for them to come testify about their report which for the Democrats might have been a lot more compelling.

COLLINS: Well, it could be. But let's also put this a very much perspective. Democrats are trying any way they can to get somebody to tell them what they want to say. It is unprecedented to bring an investigator to a committee to explain in a prosecutorial setting what they did or didn't do.

This was -- is something that we go to the narrative that's been out there about Mr. Mueller saying, "We didn't exonerate the president." There's another way to put that is we didn't have enough to find him guilty.

Let's be honest with our assessment and just say it was not Bob Mueller's position in place and we rattled this off yesterday. It was not -- it was the first time he's ever done it to say, "I didn't exonerate somebody."

There's no prosecutor in this country who walks out and says, "I'm exonerating you." They either find guilty or they find not guilty.


COLLINS: That's all they look for.

MACCALLUM: Well, both sides can do -- you know, take away from that whole conversation what they wanted to take away. Because even though, you know, it laid that out, I thought quite clearly that exoneration is not the duty of this task. It's not part of what they can determine. It's only either whether or not there's enough evidence to prosecute. And if you don't have it, then you don't have it. Then, that's the end of the story.

MACCALLUM: I want to get to -- you know, some of what you were doing today, Congressman Collins. Because you, you know, I think that a lot of Americans hope that now we're going to get some things done on Capitol Hill. And I think you expressed sort of a similar feeling today when you were talking about immigration at a hearing that you were at which was -- you know, about another topic.

But let's watch what you said today about this and then, get you a reaction.


COLLINS: And my colleagues claim is we care -- look I'm going to stop, I'm not going to read this. This -- my -- you know what, you know what is dehumanizing? It's continuing to bring the same witnesses or the same people from the same agencies to talk about this over and over and over again. What's dehumanizing is doing that and not doing anything about it. Put a bill up. I have a bill, put mine up. Make amendments to it, do whatever you want to do. That's what Congress is supposed to do. Dehumanizing is this.


MACCALLUM: Is there any hope that the Democrats who are the majority on that committee are going to put forward a bill on immigration reform that will deal with some of the issues at the border and deal with asylum?

COLLINS: I don't think so. Because I like it as an issue more than they like it as a solution. And I think that's what we've seen so far. We have done hearing after hearing. The chairman today actually made this comment. It was also in my remarks that people can go look at.

It was -- we're going to have -- we're going to have hearings until we find a solution. I would just -- that just grated on me. I cannot believe that the chairman said, "We'll going to have hearings, so we have the solution.

No, you have legislation to find solutions, you have hearings to learn about it. How many much more do we have to learn if there's a crisis at our border, our president is trying to do something about it, and they simply don't do anything.

This is the most no do-nothing, House Judiciary Committee I've ever been a part of. They're so focused on trying to take down a president who is duly elected, and who's doing good things. That they're just -- they've just -- they've just turned a malpractice area of the whole committee. But we don't take up anything anymore, and that's a problem that the American people need to look at. Well, I hope they go take August and come back and say, "Hey maybe we need to legislate.

MACCALLUM: All right. Well, the only thing that happened today was the agreement to put forth the spending caps for the next two years. And a lot of Republicans voted against it. Both of you voted in favor of it. And Chip Roy, your colleague was not too happy about that. Let's play this.


REP. CHIP ROY, R-TX: We're not doing anything to stop and deal with the problems that we've got with cartels managing the border. And we're sitting here in a fishing expedition for e-mails. In what universe is this what we're supposed to be doing for the United States of America, for the people of this country? Who are watching their country racking up mountains of debt? America deserves the time.



CONNOLLY: America deserves better than what it's just heard from Mr.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He can't take it.

CONNOLLY: Mr. Chairman, I have a motion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's taking his ball and going home, bye.


MACCALLUM: All right. So, that's the -- you know, he was very upset about the passing of this bill and the enormous amount I heard him say earlier today that Ronald Reagan talked in a speech about a year that they racked up a $100 million in the deficit or the in the deficit. And now, we do that on a daily basis, a $100 million.

Where is the -- where are the people in the Republican Party who care about this?

NUNES: Well, I think you see two of them standing right here. The challenge is, is that elections have consequences. So, the president wants to rebuild the military. It's a big part of his plan, he needs two years to do it.

If we go without a budget agreement, without an appropriations bill, the military all of a sudden, all the progress that's been made, everything that the president is doing at the border, all that comes to a stop.

And so, I agree. We have a spending problem in this country. But the Democrats control the House. So, you have to reach some type of compromise. The only way we could get the money for the military and our intelligence professionals was to have the president cut a deal with the Senate and the Democrat-controlled the House. And that's what happened. That's what happened today.


MACCALLUM: Understood. But, you know, I mean, a lot of fiscal conservatives today talking about the fact, Congressman Collins, that they felt like they got nothing in this deal.

COLLINS: Well, that's just not true. We stood with the president on this. The president put his weight behind it. We did talk about the military as Devin said. But also, if you look at the spending bills, the Democrats had already put forward. This actually cuts money that they actually appropriated earlier.

That means that we're saving money, we're moving in the right direction. Now, the problem is, is when we only focus on discretionary spending and don't deal with mandatory spending, then we're just simply, you know, talking to each other encode saying, here's what our problem is.


COLLINS: We need to fix this and I agree with it. But also, we've -- the pro-life protections, we did things that we go kept in there that we're going to be taken out. Also, they've not going to be able to restrict money being move to work on the border wall and things like that. So we were -- they were stop there.

MACCALLUM: One quick question for Congressman Nunes. Reports that you've been speaking to the president at the White House -- for people, at other people staff at the White House about replacing Dan Coats, the head of the Department of National Intelligence. Does that true?

NUNES: Well, I would -- I would chalk that up in the fake news category. I am running for re-election. Hope to be chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in the next Congress. But yes, no question that I talked to the president there often.


MACCALLUM: Did you discuss any other candidates -- potential candidates for that spot?

NUNES: Well, I'm not getting into discussions that I have with the president. But look, I'm the ranking now Republican on the House Intelligence Committee. And I would -- and the president's very nice to ask me questions about foreign policy and intelligence matters.

MACCALLUM: All right. Congressman, thank you very much. Congressman Devin Nunez, Congressman Doug Collins, ranking members of the two committees that were at the forefront yesterday.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here tonight. Good to see you both.

NUNES: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thanks, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Tucker Carlson tonight will have exclusive reaction from Speaker Pelosi. Coming up at 8:00 tonight. And up next, Robert Mueller's testimony may have been described as a disaster for Democrats, which it was by many people who watched it yesterday. But did it present an opportunity for Joe Biden? We'll explain next.



JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, MSNBC: If you want to stop Donald Trump, it is time to stop fighting by Marcus of Queensberry rules. It's time to roll up your sleeves and go after him and do whatever it takes to win. If you don't do that, well --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You'll see them again four more years.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes, you'll have Donald Trump for four more years.


MACCALLUM: So that was MSNBC host Joe Scarborough saying that Democrats better get down and dirty if they intend to defeat President Trump in 2020. We've got brand new Fox polls that are just out tonight that shows really more growth for Joe Biden in how he performs against the president.

But he's going to obviously have to survive the primary first and he is also on the top of that list with the next Democratic debate less than a week away. The gloves are coming off, the front-runner warning, he's not going to be as polite as he was last time around. Peter Doocy asked him about that today.


PETER DOOCY, REPORTER: What did you mean when you said you're not going to be as polite in the next debate?



MACCALLUM: Here now Austan Goolsbee former Chief Economist under President Obama and Basil Smikle distinguished lecturer at the City University of New York and a former aide to Hillary Clinton, both Democrats, both here to talk about the Democratic field tonight. Good to have both of you with us. Thank you very much for being here.



MACCALLUM: You know, first of all, I guess, do you believe -- you know, last time around, the feeling was that Joe Biden was not as strong as he needed to be. Do you believe that this is a very important moment for him this upcoming debate? Austan first.

GOOLSBEE: I think it's pretty important. You know, there are a lot of debates in a primary like this. But Joe Biden looked flat-footed. He looked like he didn't want to be there. And whether you think it was fair or unfair, the other candidates went after him because he's a front-runner, and he's got to get more self-discipline and be better on his game if he's going to be the nominee.

Now, that said, I think he can do it. You see in the polls there's a lot of -- there's a wellspring of support that people like Vice President Biden. I hope that his advisors did not take from the last debate that what he has to do is attack the other people. I think he needs to set out a clear idea of what he wants to do, I hope it's not about hostility though.

MACCALLUM: Well, I think you know, he had that Kamala Harris moment which was a very genuine moment for her, and she got a bit of a pop from that in the polls. Cory Booker is looking for a breakout moment here, Basil, and I want to play this moment from -- with Seth Meyers. Watch this.


SEN. CORY BOOKER, D-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is a guy who you understand hurts you. And you in my testosterone sometimes makes me want to feel like punching him which would be bad for this elderly out of shape man that he is if I did that.


MACCALLUM: Basil, what's your -- what do you think?

SMIKLE: Well, that was -- that was an interesting statement. But yes, you know, look, I think Cory is sort of ascending in some ways at this moment particularly as he's trying to go after Joe Biden on some of his -- on his votes for the --

MACCALLUM: The crime bill.

SMIKLE: Criminal justice, the crime bill. So I think it's an important moment for Cory because we're talking about it. But I don't think as was said earlier, I don't think that moment, that Harris-Biden moment, I don't think you get that back. I don't think that's going to -- that's going to be so difficult to recreate not just for Kamala Harris, but certainly for Cory Booker.

MACCALLUM: Yes, it's interesting. Everybody worked so hard for those moments. They're trying to sort of memorize little things. But when they happen, they're somewhat organic and they're very difficult to create on your own.

SMIKLE: They are.

MACCALLUM: One of the things that went through my mind, Austan, when I was watching the hearings yesterday, you know and I think about these Democratic debates coming up and you wonder if it would behoove a candidate perhaps someone you know, sort of more in the moderate lane like Joe Biden to sort of stand up and maybe speak some truth serum on the issue of impeachment.

You know, maybe sort of be the adult in the room and say look, you know, we need to move on. We don't need to forget what's in the report. We can talk about that. We can use that on the campaign trail when it comes to you know, the way that the president behaves in situations, but we need to move on.

And I wonder if that you know sort of very unorthodox opinion you know, on that stage because they've all said they want to impeach might not make him stand out.

GOOLSBEE: You know, it's kind of interesting. Maybe they might bring you in, Martha, as a Democratic consultant. I think it's actually been --

MACCALLUM: No, I don't want to consult anybody, but I'll do it from here.

GOOLSBEE: It's kind of surprising to me that while many of the Democratic candidates expressed that we ought to start an impeachment investigation or the hearings, you actually don't hear that much about impeachment on the campaign trail or even in the debates.

MACCALLUM: No. No. That's why I think people, yes, you know, I mean, you know --

GOOLSBEE: Yes, they might but I think the -- if the whole thing of the Democratic Party ends up being we don't have an agenda that we're putting forward that's different, it's just about we don't like Donald Trump, I think that's a tough spot to be in. I think on a lot of policy issues the Democrat positions --

MACCALLUM: Yes, very tough spot to be in.

GOOLSBEE: -- are more popular with the American people. They were in the 2018 election.

MACCALLUM: Put up this poll and then I want to -- I want to get one more last thought from Basil. This is the new Fox News poll out tonight. 40 percent of Democrats -- voters excuse me -- say that the nominees in the Democratic Party are too liberal. 40 percent say too liberal, 37 percent say about right. That's voters across the board, Basil.

SMIKLE: Yes, but you know, I look at the poll numbers from before. Joe Biden's actually leading and he's viewed as a huge moderate in the race. He's leading in part because he has all of these African-American voters who themselves, ourselves we're much more moderate than people that give us credit for or think that we are.

So I think there is a lot of moderation within the Democratic Party and that's reflected in Joe Biden's polls. So I agree, the average voter is not necessarily going any of our candidates and challenging them on whether you will or will not impeach. We do want to talk about issues and I think you'll see for Joe Biden much more prepared and much more issue-driven candidate than you've seen before.

MACCALLUM: It's going to be very interesting to watch how everybody stacks up. A big night for somebody and we'll see who. Thank you very much Austan and Basil. Great to see you both tonight.


SMIKLE: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Coming up next, new details in the horrible story of the death of this young woman, 21-year-old from Ole Miss. Surveillance video sheds new light on what happened that night. The last time that she was seen, she was found shot to death off-campus. Plus, someone who knows her suspected killer speaks out exclusively on “The Story” coming up.


REX RAVITA, ACQUAINTANCE OF DEFENDANT: It was obviously surprising to hear anyone you know, committed murder. But to hear someone that so blatantly disrespected women constantly, it like it just made sense.



MACCALLUM: This story breaking this evening. U.S. officials now confirming to Fox News that Iran has test-fired a ballistic missile late Wednesday and another sign of the escalating tensions that were seen between the United States, Iran, and its Gulf neighbors. Lucas Tomlinson live tonight at Pentagon with THE STORY.

Good evening, Lucas.


It turns out North Korea wasn't the only rogue nation launching missiles over the past few days, Iran was too. A U.S. official tells me Iran test fired a new medium-range ballistic missile Wednesday night known as the Shabab-3.

The missile flew 600 miles from southern Iran to northern Iran landing outside the capital city of Tehran in the desert.

A short time ago, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told Bret Baier Iran's work on missile programs continues.


MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: They continue to engage in malign activity, they continue to build up their missile program. They continue to work on their nuclear systems. And yet, they want to tell the world that they are just defensive and they are just being a normal nation and we all see differently.


TOMLINSON: This comes as Iran continues to hold a British oil tanker and its 23 crew members captive since late last week. One day before the British tanker was seized, a U.S. warship destroyed two Iranian drones while transmitting the Strait of Hormuz. Along a long-standing U.S. resolution calls upon but does not forbid Iran from testing ballistic missiles. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Lucas, thank you very much. We will watch that story as it develops tonight.

Now to the new developments in the death of Ole Miss student Ally Kostial. Newly released surveillance video captures the final moments of her life. The student left a bar, got into a gray van just hours before she was found shot to death near a lake off-campus.

Jonathan Serrie live with “The Story” for us this evening in Mississippi. Good evening, Jonathan.


Right now, I'm standing in the historic downtown square in Oxford. This is where Ally was seen in that surveillance video late Friday night, seen leaving a bar and heading west towards another establishment.

The very next morning deputies on routine patrol near a lake 20 miles away from campus discovered Ally's body with multiple gunshot wounds.

According to local media, security camera video credit card and cell phone records led police to arrest and charge 22-year-old Brandon Theesfeld. He had attended the school of business administration at Ole Miss with Ally and is the son of a Fort Worth, Texas doctor.

The defendant's father Daniel Theesfeld release a statement to WMAZ-TV saying he knows his son is innocent. The Daily Journal of Tupelo reports Theesfeld's father hired a prominent team of lawyers and they plan to enter a not guilty plea.

One student who lived across the hall from Theesfeld describes the defendant's relationship with the victim.


REX RAVITA, BRANDON THEESFELD'S ACQUAINTANCE: What it was, was an on-and- off relationship. It was mostly led on by him to believe that he loved her and he would just later on.


SERRIE: Rex Ravita describes Ally as a glowing person who cared about people. That echoes the sentiments of many other students on campus. Ally's family has announced a public visitation Friday afternoon followed by a Saturday morning public funeral in suburban St. Louis.

A Go Fund Me site has already raised more than $22,000 to assist the family with funeral expenses, more than doubling its goal. Martha.

MACCALLUM: Tragedy. Jonathan, thank you very much. Coming up here tonight on THE STORY, HUD Secretary Ben Carson joins me on the growing disconnect between the people and the police, leading to attacks like this that are appalling to everyone across the nation. We will talk to him.

Also, Governor Huckabee coming up on the decision today for the federal government to bring back the federal death penalty. All the 2020 candidates are opposed to it. The governor's surprising take when we come back.



GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This morning the United States of America carried out the severest sentence for the gravest of crimes. The victims of the Oklahoma City bombing have been given not vengeance, but justice.


MACCALLUM: President Bush breaking the news 18 years ago last month. Timothy McVeigh had been executed six years after the Oklahoma City bombing. Over the next two years, only two additional death sentences would be carried out at the federal level, bringing the total to three people executed by the U.S. government since 1963.

That number may be about to change dramatically if Attorney General Bill Barr gets his way. Today, he announced the death penalty is coming back and he named five specific inmates who will be by the end of this year, essentially ending a moratorium that was put in place by the Obama administration.

The first scheduled execution is a man named Daniel Lewis Lee, a white supremacist, who in 1996, brutally murdered a family of three, including an 8-year-old girl. He then dumped their bodies in a river.

Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee was lieutenant governor at the time of those murders and was governor when a federal jury sentenced Lee to death, and he joins me tonight. Governor Huckabee, good to see you this evening. So, do you believe that the federal death penalty sentence for Mr. Lee is just -- is a justified?

FMR. GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE, R-ARK.: I painfully would have to say that it is. This was a heinous crime and to just murder and 8-year-old girl in cold blood and her parents, it's evil.

But I want to make it very clear, Martha, there should be no sense of joy. There should be no sense of some cavalier and callous attitude about executing anybody. This was a horrible thing. I hate executions. I carried out more than any governor in my state's history and I hated every one of them.

But I think there are some crimes for which the only real sense of justice may be an execution, but it shouldn't be done with a sense of routine. It should be done with a sense of sorrow, disgust, we ought to be angry at our own collective society that we have created a culture in which some people turn out to be so evil that the only thing we feel is an appropriate sense of justice is to take their life.

MACCALLUM: Do agree with the administration on this?


HUCKABEE: But it's a horrible, horrible thing.

MACCALLUM: Do you think are you -- do you agree that they're making the right decision here, the attorney general?

HUCKABEE: In this case -- and I do think that there are cases that it may be the only real course to bring some level of justice. But again, I say it with a caveat, that they should never could become routine, it should not be something that is done as a matter of course. It ought to be the most extreme cases of evil and crime that just --

MACCALLUM: Understood.

HUCKABEE: -- shocks the human soul.

MACCALLUM: So, all of the 2020 candidates, and Joe Biden just came out to make it clear that he is against the federal death penalty being reinstituted. Here he is though back in 1995, talking about the execution that George, that President Bush was talking about, of Timothy McVeigh. Watch this.


JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I support the death penalty. The Biden crime bill is the only reason why that McVeigh is convicted in Oklahoma he gets put to death. The Biden crime bill. I wrote the law.


MACCALLUM: But Joe Biden -- you know, this is becoming sort of a theme in his campaign, the things that he felt very strongly about in the mid-90s and the crime bill, and you know, you heard, he speaks for himself there. Now he seems to be reversing himself on. What you think about that?

HUCKABEE: About every issue that is on the table, Joe Biden has reversed himself. I think the voters need to ask which Joe Biden are we getting, the 1990s version, or the version in 2020.


HUCKABEE: And I'm not sure we know because he's likely to change again. On this particular issue, I was disappointed to hear his tone from that speech. It's the Biden crime bill. He almost acted like he just couldn't wait to be the one that would actually pull the switch.

And I can tell you from being involved in this, anybody who gets any sense of pleasure, satisfaction from it, they are a sick individual. That's sick, because there's nothing pleasant about it. It's a God-awful thing. I don't think anybody who ever is a part of an execution would want to do it, but it is the law.


HUCKABEE: And I would say to those who say we shouldn't have it, change the law.


HUCKABEE: We can do that. And if we don't want to have executions, then change the law, but if we have them, somebody has to carry them out because it is the law.

MACCALLUM: I want to play just put up this tweet from Elizabeth Warren. She says, "Our criminal justice system has a long history of mistakes when it comes to capital punishment, especially when it comes to black and brown people. We cannot let a broken system decide the fate of incarcerated America -- Americans."

And just to put the federal death row statistics up right now, on death row right now you have 27 white individuals, 26 black, seven Latino, one Native American, and one Asian. But it's likely that that argument is going to be something that we may hear and I bet we're going to be hearing some responses on this issue at the debate next week.

HUCKABEE: And I think that's a big mistake, Martha. Because this isn't about anybody's color, it's about their crime.


HUCKABEE: And we ought to make the decision solely on what they did and whether or not it was adjudicated properly. We ought to give the person every benefit of the doubt. We ought to make darn sure -- and one thing I always would say to people, it is the only decision that one makes as a government official that is irrevocable.


HUCKABEE: Every other decision I ever made as a governor, a future legislator, our governor could come and do it differently, but when you make that decision, and you sign that paper that leads to a person's death, nobody --


HUCKABEE: -- can revoke that decision.

MACCALLUM: Well, whether it's --

HUCKABEE: You better be right.

MACCALLUM: Absolutely. Whether it's the beginning of life or the end of life that's a -- you know, weighing in on whether or not someone lives or dies is a pretty weighty question. And you are --

HUCKABEE: Yes, it is.

MACCALLUM: Governor, thank you very much. Good to see you as always.


MACCALLUM: So, coming up next, HUD Secretary Ben Carson on this growing disrespect that we are seeing in the streets between police and some individuals in those neighborhoods. We are going to get his thoughts on that right after this.


MACCALLUM: New Prime Minister Boris Johnson who has been called by some Britons Trump making his debut on the floor of House of Commons today while taking a page from President Trump or perhaps Disney's playbook by vowing to make the U.K. the greatest place on earth.


BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Our mission is to deliver Brexit on the 31st of October for the purpose of uniting and reenergizing our great United Kingdom and making this country the greatest place on earth.


MACCALLUM: Big message of optimism today from Prime Minister Johnson and we will be watching his development there in the U.K.

Also, tonight, two big city mayors embroiled in controversies with their own police departments will take the stage at the DNC debate in Detroit next week.

Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York, whose response got some pushback after he condemned this attack on NYPD officers earlier this week, then you got Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Indiana, whose response to the shooting of Eric Logan led by some four demands for him to resign.

The question many are asking now, do their policies or their politics have anything to do with this growing disconnect that we have seen, some would say disrespect in the streets of New York City, certainly.

Here now in the THE STORY exclusive tonight, Housing and Urban Development Secretary, Ben Carson. Good to see you tonight, Secretary Carson. Thank you for being here.


MACCALLUM: You know, in the larger picture, there's the criticism that some conservatives levy against some of these cities that are run by more liberal mayors that it leads to some kind of -- you know, the kind of thing that we saw in the streets here in New York City. It is that a valid criticism or not?

CARSON: Well, there's no question that people do what they think they're going to get away with and I think it's incumbent upon all the leadership of every city to make it clear that they're not going to tolerate anarchy. They're certainly not going to tolerate attacks on the police.

Recognizing that these are people who put their lives on the line every day. Now, are there, you know, bad apples among the police? Of course, there are. There are bad apples amongst teachers, amongst doctors, amongst politicians, maybe we should put it the other way, politicians, there are some good ones.

But the fact -- but the fact of the matter is, you know, you can't condemn a whole group of people on the basis of what one does. But the real key I think is communication. Getting to the place where people actually have developed a relationship with the police.

I was talking to a police officer in Baltimore, he said he walked the same beat every single day, he knows everybody, they all know him. He says he never has to buy lunch, but you know, this is what happens when people have a relationship.

MACCALLUM: Yes. This is a tweet from former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. He says "This disrespect for the uniform in New York City is a result of Democratic progressive retrogressive socialist mayor." He writes. "This is what happens with knee-jerk disrespect for police. It will only get worse until those left-wing idiots, he says, are defeated." You want to comment on that?

CARSON: Well, I probably wouldn't be quite as inflammatory in my language, but the general principle is true. People will do what they are allowed to get away with and we need to make sure that we are a company -- a country that has the rule of law in everything.

You know, in immigration, as far as how we treat people, how we treat our neighbors, you know, we cannot go around disrespecting people. This is not who America is.

MACCALLUM: But Secretary, let me ask you this, because you know, I mean, some of the backlash that we are seeing after the Eric Garner decision in New York, you have a lot of hostility on the streets towards police in general because of some of these decisions, you know.

So how do you -- how do you break through that? How do you -- what would you say to these young people who were -- not that young -- who were arrested in this case for throwing buckets of water a police officer's? If you could sit down and talk to them, what would you say to them?

CARSON: I would say, have you ever seen the movie "Purge," any of the "Purge" movies? Can you imagine what your life would be like if just for 48 hours there were no police at all? People would walk in your house and they would say, I like your TV, I'm taking it. And they said, better still, I'm taking your house, get out, you know.

I mean, there would be just total pandemonium and chaos. So, let's remember that we need these people --


CARSON: -- and let's find a way that we can live in harmony with them. We can do this. But it requires communication.

MACCALLUM: Before I let you go, you said in 2015 that when you are asked about racial bias in policing, you said I'm still waiting to see evidence of that. Do you see evidence of that in America?

CARSON: There's probably bias in everything, but I don't think there's an overwhelming amount of bias in police officers. I don't think there's an overwhelming amount of bias in bus drivers or in airplane pilots.

MACCALLUM: Secretary, thank you very much. Secretary Ben Carson, always good to see you, sir.

CARSON: My pleasure.

MACCALLUM: Thank you. Breaking news on the mass arrest of U.S. Marines at Camp Pendleton next.


MACCALLUM: So more than a dozen U.S. marines are now under arrest for illegal activities ranging from drug offenses to human smuggling. The 16 marines busted early this morning at Camp Pendleton in Southern California.

Breaking -- chief breaking news correspondent Trace Gallagher in our West Coast newsroom has an update for us on this tonight. Hi, Trace.


These arrests happen in dramatic fashion. It was during this morning's battalion formation the 16 marines were identified and pulled out of line and then taken into custody. Eight other marines were also pulled aside and questioned.

The Marine Corps wouldn't get into details about the various allegations except to say, quote, "Information gained from a previous human smuggling investigation precipitated the arrest."

That previous operation reportedly happened on July 3rd with the arrest of two other marines, Lance Corporal Byron Darnell Law II, and Lance Corporal David Salazar-Quintero.

Those two marines were driving a car that was seen parked in an area of San Diego well known for human smuggling. When the car was pulled over, police say Corporals Law and Salazar-Quintero were in the front seat and three illegal immigrants were in the back.

In the criminal complaint the marines pointed fingers at each other. Corporal Law told investigators that Salazar-Quintero was the one who organized the operation and needed Law's help.

And just a few hours before getting arrested, the marines allegedly smuggled another person from the Tijuana border to a San Diego beach down 25 miles away. They apparently got a thousand bucks for the first trip and were expecting up to $8,000 to smuggle the other three.

Both marines are decorated war heroes and they are now free on bond awaiting trial. The marines awaiting trial and the marines arrested today are all in the very same battalion. Aside from that, the nexus between them is very unclear. Martha?

MACCALLUM: All right. Trace, that's got to be very problematic.


MACCALLUM: Obviously for those who are working very hard on the border, members of the border patrol certainly not helpful. And as Ben Carson, the HUD secretary said moments ago, unfortunately, every single organization seems to have some bad apples and the process will play out, obviously for these men. And we'll see where it goes.

Trace, thank you very much. Good to see you tonight.


MACCALLUM: So, stick around. Tonight, Sean Hannity will interview President Trump. We look forward to that at 9 p.m. this evening. And I will be coming up tonight on Tucker, doing the quiz, the news quiz with Rick -- with Rick Reichmuth. It's called the final exam. And root for me because I want to win because on that, you know, I like to win. That's “The Story” of Thursday, July 25, 2019. But; as always, “The Story” goes on. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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