Ben Carson on why it is time to unite after church shooting
Republican presidential candidate shares his message about the Charleston tragedy on 'The Kelly File'
This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 18, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, a mass murder suspect in custody and back in South Carolina after being captured nearly 300 miles away and now a search for answers are under way following a devastating attack at a historical church that has left nine people dead.
Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. It was just about this time last night when a 21-year-old man opened fire inside the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in the heart of Charleston South Carolina. A place known as the holy city. A small group was gathered there to share their faith and study the bible. To sit in trust in what they thought was safety and feeling connected to God and one another. The killer was among them. He sat with them for a full hour. An impostor among the faithful. A man with evil in his heart pretending to worship and as the bible study ended so do did his charade as he then stood up and opened fire on innocents ranging from a young child to an 87-year-old woman.
One report says he reloaded his gun five times. It is our "Kelly File" policy to refrain from naming or showing the faces of these mass shooters. Once they have been apprehended. Too often it is infamy they seek and we decline to help. We urge our colleagues in the media both at Fox News and beyond to join us in this effort. Especially in a case like this. Where this killer allowed one person to live reportedly for the expressed purpose of having her tell the world what he had done. Tonight we have breaking news on the killer in this case and what led him to that terrible moment. We also have news on the victims. And we will discuss the opportunism we saw today as some felt compelled to take advantage of this tragedy to push a personal sometimes political agenda.
Tonight we have Alveda King, Dana Loesch, FBI profilers, and presidential candidate Ben Carson who issued one of the most thoughtful responses to this incomprehensible crime this afternoon. But first, a look back at how this tragedy unfolded. As we mentioned the killer spent about an hour with his victims at the church. Then at approximately 9:05 p.m., he allegedly told his victims, quote, "you rape our women and you are taking over our country and you have to go," speaking to all African-Americans. Then he started shooting. Authorities immediately responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER: Several victims regarding that active shooter. Give me at least four medic units. Plus two supervisor on that call, please.
911 DISPATCHER: All units responding 110 call --
OFFICER: Can you please send out an EMS command page advising of an active shooter. Multiple people down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Among the victims' prominent names in the African-American community including pastors, a state senator, a librarian, a high school coach. Several others would survived. While three, including a five-year- old girl whose grandmother reportedly told her to play dead as word spread heartbroken friends converged on the church. Their grief palpable. While mourners expressed their outraged and grief, the search for the killer continued throughout the night. And by daybreak, police would release key clues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGORY MULLEN, CHARLESTON POLICE CHIEF: He's a younger white male, we're estimating between 21 and 25 years of age. He's approximately 5'9" in height and as you will see he has on a very distinctive sweat shirt that has markings and I would point out that also the vehicle that you'll see has a very distinctive front license plate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Shortly after 10:00 a.m., law enforcement would reveal the identity of their prime suspect. As well as detailed information about his vehicle. And within the hour, by 10:49 a.m. police got their man. We blurred his face as you can see here. Apprehending him just a state away in Shelby, North Carolina. A tip from an alert citizen led to his arrest. A moment of light in a very dark day. Over the next hour or so we heard from Attorney General Lynch who said federal authorities have opened up a hate crime investigation here. And from South Carolina officials, including Governor Nikki Haley whose heartbreak was evident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(INAUDIBLE)
GOV. NIKKI HALEY, R-S.C.: And the heart and soul of South Carolina was broken. And so we have some grieving to do. And we got some pain we have to go through. Parents are having to explain to their kids how they can go to church and feel safe and that's not something we ever thought we would deal with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: President Obama spoke from the White House. More on that in just a bit. And while the nation could finally breathe a sigh of relief that there was no longer a threat, mourners would gather for a vigil to honor those lost. As for the accused he waived his right to extradition and has now returned to South Carolina.
Fox News' Ainsley Earhardt is live in Charleston tonight. Ainsley, what's the latest?
AINSLEY EARHARDT, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Megyn when we got the call this morning that all of this had gone down and happened here in my state of South Carolina, this is where I grew up. My sister lives here. My family goes to the beach very close right off the coast of Charleston. I grew up about two hours away in Columbia and lived on Smith Street here when I interned at the NBC affiliate a few blocks down the road. So, when we pulled into downtown Charleston our whole crew, we turned the corner, Calhoun Street was just opened for the first time today and we passed this church and there it is down there, Emanuel AME Church, and the doors were closed and I thought to myself nine people lost their lives in a senseless way last night and you're right.
How do you explain that to your children as Nikki Haley was saying, the governor here of South Carolina. We saw people there eat the church today. Lines, droves of people that were bringing flowers, were bringing candles, were saying prayers, were uniting different denominations, different races, different political views, we're out there holding hands. Crying about the loss that happened in that church, well, about 24 hours ago. And men were out there with their babies and were teaching their five and six-year-olds about forgiveness and those lessons that they learned they said in bible school.
You know, the south growing up here it's not unordinary for all of us go to church on Sunday mornings. The majority of people do that here. Even if you spend the night out with friends. You were in church on Sunday morning with them. And then on Wednesday nights everyone went to church as well. That was not uncommon. So what happened last night is just -- it's so bizarre and is blowing all of our minds. But this is a very popular intersection in downtown Charleston. This gas station is where everyone stops to get gas, gets their beer, all the college students, you got the church right down the street. It's a very popular and historic area, Megyn so it breaks everyone's heart that this happened.
KELLY: Ainsley, thank you.
For more on the aftermath of last night's tragedy we're joined by Pastor Thomas Dixon who rushed to the scene and ended up joining the mourners last night. Pastor, thank you so much for being here with us. When you went to the church last night --
PASTOR THOMAS DIXON, CHARLESTON: Thank you.
KELLY: What did you see?
DIXON: I actually wasn't able to even get close to the church. The scene was cordoned off very, very swiftly. And no one was allowed actually in or out. Over time, though, some of the community leaders that had gathered were allowed to, to come through the scene but not inside of the church. Never once was the interior of the church breached.
KELLY: Was there fear at that hour given that the killer was still on the loose?
DIXON: There was apprehension. There was apprehension. I mean, in any community you have that apprehension. But there's one thing about it, we can't allow fear to grip us and stall us or stagnate us in whatever our mission is that we have to do. We can't just let terror prevent us from going about whatever it is that we need to do at any given time. This is America. We don't do that.
KELLY: Were you able to speak to any of the survivors? I mean, I know that there was a five-year-old girl who was told by her grandmother to play dead and she survived. Were you able to speak with anybody who came out of the church?
DIXON: Unfortunately, no. And it's my understanding that --
KELLY: Unfortunately, we have seem to have lost the Pastor's feed. You can understand the chaos that is going on right now down in South Carolina with all the TV crews there trying to cover the story for you as best we can. We'll try to get that feed re-established and go back to the Pastor momentarily.
Oh, we've got him. We've got him. Good. All right. Pastor, my apologies. We lost your feed for a moment. But you were talk about the condition, the inability to speak with the survivors last night.
DIXON: Okay.
KELLY: Sorry. You know what, he can't hear us. My apologies, folks, we're having a rough time with our technology tonight. So, we'll going to move on. If we get the Pastor back, we'll bring him to you. Again, here on THE KELLY FILE, we don't name the accuse shooters in these cases, nor give them the notoriety there looking for.
Joining me now to discuss, the person however which is fair game is Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole. She's a retired senior FBI profiler who helped captured and understands some of the world's most vicious killers. Including the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski and the Zodiac killer. And Ron Hosko, who is president of the Law Enforcement Legal Defense Fund and former assistant director of the FBI who retired after a distinguished 30 year career. Thank you both so much for being here.
So, I want to talk about this -- we refer to him as the killer or the shooter. And it is worthwhile to explore what we know about that led up to this moment so we can understand when we see it in the future whether we're seeing a problem person.
Mary Ellen, let me ask you one because one of the things that stand out to you when you hear this story is that he allegedly told one of the victims, the five-year-old survived because he thought she was dead according to reports. But an elderly woman, he said, "I'll let you live. I'll let you live," because, he said, "I'm going to commit suicide and I want somebody to be able to tell people what happened here." What does that tell you about him?
DR. MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, RETIRED SENIOR FBI PROFILER: Well, that tells me that he wanted to receive credit for what he done. That he wanted that attention so that the world would know he was the one that was responsible for this crime.
KELLY: Uh-mm. And Ron, so often these killers are looking for infamy. They want their faces to be on the evening news along with their names. Why?
RON HOSKO, PRESIDENT, LAW ENFORCEMENT LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: There's an intersection between these acts and mental illness. You see that commonly with so many of these active shooters. Frequently and it was mentioned that this person had, at least commented on his intent to commit suicide. That happens in at least 40 percent of these events where their life is ended by suicide before the police arrive.
KELLY: What do you make of the fact that he didn't, Ron? And he fled. And was apprehended without, you know, a scuffle.
HOSKO: Well, Mary Ellen is certainly quick to comment on this as well but I see here a person who is a coward. Somebody who did not have control, was trying regain control by a group that he thought he could control. And he was so cowardly he could not bring himself to take his own life.
KELLY: Wow! Mary Ellen the fact that he sat there in this group as I said in the introduction of trust, of faith, reading the bible for an hour and then killed them all, save for a few, what does that tell us?
O'TOOLE: That's very important behavior. And the prosecutor will need to be aware of what that behavior indicates. There was a detachment between him and those victims. During that hour he probably knew their names. Some of them embraced him. They were friendly to him. They welcomed him into the group. And yet at the end of that hour he began shooting them. This is someone that had no empathy. He didn't connect with these people as other humans. Probably saw them more as objects. And something has to explain that kind of behavior. In addition to the fact that he was apparently cool, calm and collective and I'm sure they were screaming and crying and he's just casually reloading his gun. In the midst of this chaos, and that goes to his personality. That has to be explained.
KELLY: On top of that, Mary Ellen and we learned tonight that he did have trouble with the law, that he had been arrested at a mall for causing trouble, been banned from the mall, then returned to the mall even though he wasn't permitted to do so legally. And for some reason his father gave him a gun on his birthday despite the fact that his friends said he was a pill popper and had been in trouble with the law.
O'TOOLE: Yes. Two things really are striking to me. The whole situation involving the mall, and he had been banned from the mall but he came back. That indicates somebody that is -- he's a rule breaker. And that becomes important for someone like me who analyzes behavior because in a crime scene you want to know, is this person so disdainful of other people that they don't listen to authority figures? The world is all about them, in other words. And then the second issue is that this is someone that either the family is simply not aware of the red flags that would have pre-existed this behavior, or something is terribly off to give an individual like this who would have been evidencing, manifesting indicators that his behavior is deteriorating, to give them a gun is absolutely makes no sense to me whatsoever.
KELLY: Uh-mm. And you know we're going to learn more about that in the coming days about his behavior and what warning signs there were. Ron, they reportedly found skinhead materials in his home, videos that were anti-black, hateful racist. Colleagues, students who knew him one said, yes, he used to tell racist jokes. And others said, "I'm surprised he had black friends." But they are charging this as a hate crime. They are going to be able to make that charge from the sound of it.
HOSKO: I think so. And from the federal perspective, Megyn, hate crime, you know, it's certainly a label. It's a statute, so it gives the FBI certain authorities to go in and conduct an investigation. Jointly here with the state and local authorities. But it confer ascertain amount of jurisdiction and ability to move aggressively in a case like this. But I think it's also a label. It helps for us to explain motivation. But I would be surprised, frankly, at this point if DOJ steps up and says, we want to take this case and prosecute it.
KELLY: Why?
HOSKO: Because I think the state resources are there, certainly supplemented by anything that the FBI has to offer, and that there's a great likelihood that substantial justice can be obtained by a state prosecution. There's a certification procedure whereby DOJ might take the case, in this case I just don't see the need because I think there can be a very successful state prosecution with a potential death sentence.
KELLY: Uh-mm. Right. And the state jurisdiction may be able to handle this more than adequately. Thank you both so much tonight.
O'TOOLE: You're welcome.
KELLY: Also this evening we have more on the South Carolina lawmaker who suggested the shooter decided to attack this church and these innocent victims because he heard some sort of coded language on Fox News. We'll look at this theory and let you hear what he said, ahead.
Plus, as mourners try to come to grips with their grief President Obama went to tissue of gun control today. While presidential candidate Ben Carson shared a very different take on the tragedy. We'll hear from Dr. Carson, next.
And we will fact check some of the president's claims about guns still ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: We don't have all facts but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I've had to make statements like this too many times. Communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times. We don't have all the facts but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun.
HILLARY CLINTON , PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How many people do we need to see cut down before we act? We send this message of solidarity that we will not forsake those who have been victimized by gun violence. This time we have to find answers together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama remarking on the Charleston shooting today both expressing sorrow for the victims and then calling for more gun control. The President went on to make some controversial claims about mass shootings and we'll get to those in a moment with Dana Loesch who is here along with Nomiki Konst. But before we do, the President's critics are already asking, was this the right message and the right tone at the right time?
Dr. Ben Carson also shared a message with America about the shooting today. He is a Republican candidate for president. Dr. Carson, good to see you again tonight.
DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.
KELLY: Let me first ask you that question whether you think that was the right tone at the right moment from the President and from Hillary Clinton?
CARSON: Certainly not the tone that I would have adopted. I think we have to start is going to the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is not guns. The heart of the matter is the heart. The heart and soul of people. You know, this young man didn't wake up yesterday and suddenly turn into a maniac. Clearly there have been things in his background, in his upbringing that led to the type of mentality that would allow him to do something like this. And one of the things that I think that we really need to start concentrating on in this country is once again instilling the right kinds of values particularly in our young people. You know, we're so busy giving away all of our values and principles for the sake of political correctness that we have people floating around out there with no solid foundation or beliefs.
KELLY: Uh-mm. And I mean, we saw today so many people rush to the dark place, you know. One guy saying this shooter watched too many Fox News. One person who used to work for the Obama administration ripping on Nikki Haley because she allowed the confederate flag to stand in South Carolina. As if there's any evidence that anything like that would lead somebody to commit mass murder. You came out with a peace talking for more tolerance, for more togetherness, for more understanding and less hate.
CARSON: Absolutely. It's destroying our nation. You know, we have a war on women, race wars, income wars, age wars, religious wars, anything you could imagine we have a war on it. And we're giving people license to hate people who disagree with them. To try to destroy their lives. To even try to destroy them. This will have consequences in our society. And a house divided against itself cannot stand. It never has and it never will stand. We have to recognize that this is going to destroy us as a nation just as fast as any of the other factors and there are multiple of them that threaten to do the same thing.
KELLY: You wrote earlier with external jihadist forces trying to destroy us, why would we aid them by engaging in self-destructive behaviors stimulated by hate? You know it's a good point. We saw that after 9/11. We came together as a nation and then we seemed to drift right back into the red, blue divisive, diminishing places.
CARSON: Well, I hope we, the American people, can come to the understanding that we are not each other's enemies. The enemies are those who are stoking the flames of division, trying to divide us into every category and weakening us as a society. You don't have to be all that observant to see what's happening to us. We must wake up, people, and recognize who the real problems are. They are the purveyors of division and hatred within our society.
KELLY: Uh-mm. And yet, you know, what do you think this says, what we saw today, about the status of race relations in America, the President seemed to strike a tone suggesting this is indicative of a darker period in our history, the exact sound bite -- actually we have it here. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The fact that this took place in a black church, obviously, also raises questions about a dark part of our history. This is not the first time that black churches have been attacked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Does it raise questions about the dark part of our history? You know, is it a broader commentary, do you think, on society today?
CARSON: Well, I think it goes back to what I was saying before. You know, we have succumbed to the purveyors of division in all those different categories including race. And it's going to be up to us the people to begin the focus on the positive things, on the things that we have in common and stop listening to those who are stoking the fires of division. Have we made enormous progress in this country in race? Absolutely. When I was a kid, I mean I remember all kinds of horrible things going on that don't occur now. But is the problem solved? Of course it isn't.
But we need to work at it in a constructive way. As long as there are people with small minds you're going to have these kinds of problems. But we cannot generalize and say because this happened, you know, the whole place is going to pot. And let's be optimistic and let's look at the ways that we can solve these problems together.
KELLY: Dr. Carson, great to see you. Thank you for being with us on a night like this especially.
CARSON: Thank you, Megyn. Pleasure.
KELLY: Well, you heard a moment ago the new calls for gun control and they came with some controversial statistics on mass shootings.
Dana Loesch and Nomiki Konst are next with a fact check.
Plus, as the grieving continues for the families of the victims, we'll take a look at how the media is reporting on the shooting, and on the suspected shooter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KELLY: Back now to our breaking news, on the Charleston Church shooting. The suspected gunman is back in South Carolina tonight, after he was picked in a neighboring state. He'll have a bond hearing soon. The AP is reporting that a childhood friend of his actually called the FBI after recognizing him in the surveillance footage that was released by authorities. And we learned earlier today, that police think the gun he used was given to him as a birthday present by his father. In remarks this morning, President Obama used this as a chance to go after the issue of gun control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. And at some point it's going to be important for the American people to come to grips with it. And for us to be able to shift how we think about the issue of gun violence collectively.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Dana Loesch is the Host of Dana on the Blaze TV, and the Author of Hands off my gun. And Nomiki Konst is the Founder and Executive Director of the Accountability Project, welcome to you both. You know this is an issue that makes people feel very strongly about it on both sides. And so I don't doubt his sincerity. And I doubt Hillary Clinton's sincerity in trying to raise the issue. They seem to genuinely believe that gun control will diminish the number of mass shootings we're seeing in the country. And yet I ask you Dana, somebody who studies guns and supports gun rights, whether the facts bear that out?
DANA LOESCH, HOST OF DANA ON THE BLAZE TV: No, Megyn. They simply don't. And I don't think that they mean to do a disservice to the memory of those who lost their lives in Europe, and other countries, where there has been gun violence and there have been mass shootings. Just in fact, there was the one in Norway which regulates guns quite heavily I might add, in 2011 where you had a murderous thug, who went and murdered 69 people, and it played out on live television. There's also the case of the shooting rampage that took place in Britain, again where hand guns are illegal. And 12 people were murdered there. This happens quite a bit. This is not unique to American society, Megyn this is a moral deficiency that all of humanity shares.
KELLY: Nomi, what about it? Because you look at the stats and they are quite dreadful, I mean even in Europe which has very tight gun control laws. The number of mass shootings that have occurred over there, in high schools, in middles schools, even in kindergarten, like we saw as Sandy Hook. They are terrible. So how do you get to the point of this is due to gun control laws in America.
NOMIKI KONST, THE ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT FOUNDER: I mean the reality is that Americans are 20 times more likely to be murdered by gun violence, than in any other developed country. We have more guns in America unregulated than Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia, and India. That's outrageous, the fact that we're a developed country, and our standards are below countries that don't have these regulations.
KELLY: Ok, but let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, because the question is, whether we have any reason to believe tighter regulations would have prevented these crimes. I mean in this instance, we don't know but it appears that the father had a gun. I haven't heard that it was an illegal gun that he gave to his son or perhaps he just bought him one that was legal, but my point is we don't have the evidence this is an unlawful gun yet. And we didn't have that evidence in the case of Sandy Hook either.
KONST: Well, there's an interesting study recently done. In Australia in 1996, there was a mass shooting epidemic. There were 11 mass shootings that happened in a decade which is the highest ever. Under conservative prime minister, they passed sweeping gun reform laws, banned -- destroyed 650,000 semi-automatic and automatic weapons, created tight, tight restrictions in Australia and within ten years, the murders created by gun violence dropped by 59 percent. They went from 11 murders in a decade, mass murders in a decade to 0. So there are -- there's evidence here to show that this type of reform does have a serious impact. Now can you control the black market?
KELLY: And yet Dana, that's not the experience we have in our country, when Bill Clinton passed his gun law.
LOESCH: Right. And there's something I want to point out, Megyn. I could sit here, I did write the book on it, and I can spout off stats all day long. For instance, Honduras has 21 times the gun murder that we do and 14 times fewer guns. But this gun we do know actually that this individual, this murderous thug in Charleston was legally barred from carrying, Megyn. We could talk about statistics, but its irrelevant here. In South Carolina, all you have to do is be charged with a felony to be declared illegitimate to carry, which we he was in February of 2015, they're charged with a felony for drug possession. It was methamphetamine, as in cocaine. His father purchased a firearm for him, for his 21st birthday, April 4th 2015. That could have bean straw man purchase which is also a felony. He reportedly told someone that he stole the gun that he used in these murders. That's also a felony. Felony, felony, felony, we have regulations on firearm ownership which is why when you compare us to countries, advanced countries, Megyn that have fewer guns and more restrictions, the murder rate is higher, the violent crime rate is higher. The studies speak for themselves.
KELLY: A lot of people say, you know, somebody like this is determined to kill. And gun defenders will say what they needed in that church was somebody who was also carrying, who could've taken him down. We were supposed to air a special tonight, which now we postponed until next week, given the news out of Charleston, about a woman who was at a food processing plant in Oklahoma. Her colleague was beheaded by a mad man who ran in. She was in the process of getting beheaded. Her life was saved because there was a man in that company with a gun who shot the person trying to decapitate her.
KONST: So you know, anecdotes are fascinating, but they're not data. And we do have very serious data that backs up that gun reform does prevent murders, massive murders, 49 of the 60 massive murders we've had in our country have been due to illegal and legal purchasing of guns. So this is a...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: Why is it illegal? That sort of underscores Dana's points. If it's illegal, then how would another law going to prevent it?
KONST: Let me clarify, meaning passing on the situation where it was gifted or stolen. And now it's illegal...
(CROSSTALK)
LOESCH: But it's a registered gun.
KONST: It's a straw man purchase.
(CROSSTALK)
LOESCH: You cannot purchase a firearm and gift it to someone who is ineligible to own a firearm.
KONST: Sure, but that's a very rare situation.
(CROSSTALK)
LOESCH: It's felony.
KELLY: I won't say his name but even in the Sandy Hook situation, his mother had the guns legally and he took them. How are stricter gun laws going to prevent that? The question is whether the focus is on the wrong thing because remember the mental health thing, remember how we were going crack down on that after Newtown? What happened?
KONST: You know it's not a one or the other issue. We have to deal with both of these issues.
KELLY: Where is the dealing with the mental health?
KONST: That's in Congress. I think that we should pass massive mental health reform.
KELLY: Should it be easier to commit people?
KONST: I don't know necessarily, I'm not doctor, so I don't know...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: You don't have to be a doctor to have an opinion on that.
KONST: I think people should have free access to free mental health. I think that there should be clinics widely available. We have a serious mental health issue in America, but that's not causing these situations.
(CROSSTALK)
LOESCH: We have a huge problem. We don't follow through. If you remember the Discovery Channel thug, that was a court order, Megyn that he should have been receiving mental health and the state board didn't follow up with that. If you adjudicate somebody mentally unfit, you have to follow the laws in place.
KELLY: Ladies, thank you both. Thoughtful debate, we appreciate it. With the FBI now investigating this as a hate crime, we will hear from the law maker who seems to think that Fox News is somehow to blame. Is that helpful, really, on a night like this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he did so based on some ill-gotten belief on some wrong belief that it's ok to do that. He hears that because he watches the news and he watches things like Fox News, where they talk about things that they call news, but they really are not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he did so based on some ill-gotten belief on some wrong belief that it's ok to do that. He hears that because he watches the news and he watches things like Fox News, where they talk about things that they call news, but they really are not. They use that coded language, they use hate speech, they talk about the President as if he's not the President, they talk about church-goers as if they're not really church- goers. And that's what this young man acted on. That's why you can walk into a church and treat people like animals, when they're really human beings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: That was South Carolina State Representative, Todd Rutherford earlier today, trying to put some of the blame for last night's mass shooting on the Fox News Channel. Joining me now, two Fox News Contributors, and Christian Ministers, Dr. Alveda King, niece of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and a Director of Preach for Life, and the Reverend Jacques Degraff, Associate Pastor of Canaan Baptist Church in Harlem. First we'll begin with Alveda King, thank you for being here tonight. It's so sad to see more divisiveness and hate poured on top of already divisiveness and hate.
ALVEDA KING, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Megyn, thank you for the opportunity to get to the heart of the matter. My uncle, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., once said that hatred cannot drive out hatred, only love can do that. My uncle, my daddy, Reverend A.D. King, his brother, we're coming up on Father's Day Weekend, I miss them very much, talked about a beloved community. And so to reach out to try to perhaps blame Fox News for the shooting, or things like that are not going bring the healing to America, to the family, to the bereaved members of those families who now have lost their family members. I do agree with the governor, who said that we have to heal, we have to give ourselves permission to heal. And I must add, Megyn that we must pray. And so -- please may I say that I do agree that gun control will not stop problems like this. And to just say simply it's Fox News -- the thought of Fox News and if we have gun control it won't happen. That's not realistic.
KELLY: It's -- I know that the Reverend Martin Luther King said darkness cannot drive out darkness, as you referenced, only light can do that. And yet we've seen such a rush to go the dark place. I think people are searching for answers. I think people don't know what to do with this kind of pain and grief. And so they lash out trying to blame anything they can. What should they be blaming? What do you think is at the heart of this?
KING: I believe Dr. Carson hit on it quite well when he talked about the divisiveness, those things that divide us, and cause us to fight each other. We are created of one blood. We're supposed to be a human family. My uncle also said that we must learn to live together as brothers, and I say as sisters or perish as fools. It is correct to say that we all sometimes don't see each other as human beings, we look at the dividing factors. And so all human life being sacred for the unborn, from the womb, to the tomb, the sick, the elderly, certainly to go into a church, the President mentioned that it was a black church, I remember that my grandmother was shot in Ebenezer Baptist Church by an African-American man, in the 1970s. And actually that's the first thing I thought about when I heard this incident. Like my cousin, Martin III, I said oh no, not again. And I didn't see skin color. My grandmother was shot by an African- American man on a Sunday while she was playing the Lord's Prayer on the organ. So it's not about whether church is an African-American church or Caucasian church, there is no such thing. There's a worship experience for human beings.
KELLY: Dr. Alveda King, thank you so much for being with us tonight.
KING: Thank you.
KELLY: Joining us now with more, the Reverend Jacques Degraff, Associate Pastor at Canaan Baptist Church in Harlem, and a Fox News Contributor, great to see you too.
JACQUES DEGRAFF, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to be here.
KELLY: What about that? You can't deny what this guy said and the hatred in his heart for African-Americans, and yet I don't know, is it about race or is it about the deterioration of our society, as we've seen in so many of these cases?
DEGRAFF: Well, I think it's about a combination of the two. I think that there's certainly a black worship experience, and there's certainly in this instance, this is a hate crime by any standard. And I think that the black community is particularly grieving, because the black worship experience on Wednesday night, the prayer service is not like Sunday morning with the singing.
KELLY: We have a picture of the actual prayer service, the bible discussion that they were having prior to -- look at this. Look at this, there's the pastor moments before he was murdered. This was taken by one of the victims, shortly he was murdered as well.
DEGRAFF: We can't go into the mind of a mad man, but I believe it's because of the incandescent light that pastor and church shined that drew him in, that even as they preached the gospel and lived the gospel...
KELLY: He was desperate to put it out. It was threatening to him.
DEGRAFF: Evil came to the door. So the real question is, after we get through the lamentations and hand ringing, what are we going to about it? After the tears have dried, are we going to do something about bringing races closer?
KELLY: Bringing the races closer, and bringing the community together. We shun god in the public square. We don't come together in Sunday services the way we used to. Am I wrong?
DEGRAFF: One of your correspondents said a little earlier about how everybody, no matter what they did on Saturday night, went some place on Sunday morning. Those fundamentals have been driven out by the politically correct crowd. But the basic crowd, the reason that Emanuel will rise again is because of faith, and that faith may not be politically correct, but it has sustained us for generations, and generations yet to come. So what we need to do, as a people, whatever god you fear and bow down before, we need to pray to that god, a. But we also need to do tangible acts as people and citizens of America, outside of our own community. And so each of us needs to become an ambassador to find somebody to connect with, and make a difference.
KELLY: What a great way to try to shine some light in this darkness, as opposed to adding to the hate, Reverend, so great to see you.
DEGRAFF: Good to be back.
KELLY: Thanks for being here.
Also tonight, we are going take a look how the media is reporting on this shooter, and whether they are helping or hurting, next.
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KELLY: Well over the last 24 hours, we have seen many images of last nights shooting in Charleston. We at The Kelly File have decided not to use the picture of to name the gunman, to avoid giving this shooter additional notoriety. And we urge our colleagues in media, especially the broadcast media to consider doing the same.
Park Dietz is Doctor of forensic psychiatry and the Founder of the Threat Assessment Group. He's been named on the Top 25 Most Influential People in the Security Industry. He's with us now. Thank you very much for being with us tonight, Doctor. And so why is it important?
PARK DIETZ, THREAT ASSESSMENT GROUP FOUNDER: For me the enlightenment came when John Hinckley, Jr. told me that the reason he tried to kill President Reagan, was so that he can get on the cover of Time Magazine. And from that time on, I've been very concerned that some kinds of crimes create copy-cats. And the reason that people will commit high-profile crimes has to do with their desire for fame, for notoriety, for the attention. Anything they do that rewards that behavior, is bad and encourages the behavior.
KELLY: How far do you go on that scale? We decided to show video of this person but to blur out his face. Where do you draw the line between delivering the news, and being complicit in inviting additional bad behaviors?
DIETZ: So usually the suggestions I would make have to do with how this is covered and where it's covered. The local community of course needs to have the complete facts. There are people there that know these families, who grew up together, who went to school together. But beyond the local affected region, nothing good can come from naming the shooter, from giving biographical details about the shooter, for making the shooter into a pseudo rock star by giving dramatic retellings of their life story. That's only bad.
KELLY: I maintain that in print perhaps you have to get the facts out there, but on broadcast media, night after night, the rock star status that these people attain, it's dangerous, is it not?
DIETZ: There's no doubt about it. This has been kind of a pet peeve of mine for about 25 years, and I repeatedly gone on network shows.
KELLY: My apologies, we're getting an early wrap because we're in a different break structure tonight, so I have to wrap you. But I appreciate your expertise. We'll be right back.
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KELLY: Go to Facebook.com/thekellyfile. Follow me on Twitter @MegynKelly with your thoughts. Again, our special on Oklahoma will air on Thursday, next week. Here's Sean.
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