This is a rush transcript from "Tucker Carlson Tonight," October 16, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Good evening and welcome to "Tucker Carlson Tonight." Awful lot going on in the world and a big show tonight. In just a few minutes, Megyn Kelly joins us on set for her first television interview since she left NBC News last year. An awful lot has happened at NBC recently.
Just this week, the network was busted covering up for Harvey Weinstein.
Megyn saw all of it. It ought to be a fascinating conversation, so stay tuned for that.
Then NBA legend Dennis Rodman joins us tonight to weigh in on the league's subservience to the dictatorship in China.
And then Tulsi Gabbard, who was attacked by both "The New York Times" and CNN joins us for a post-debate recap.
But first tonight. It is fair to say, a brand new Democratic field for the better part of the year, former Vice President Joe Biden dominated the polls and the other candidates in the race attacked him from the left, which is weird to see.
Biden still believed in law enforcement and international borders, and he opposed forced bussing, along with virtually every other American. So he was obviously one of those right-wing extremists from the Obama administration.
That's what they were telling you on the debate stage. It was bizarre.
Thankfully, that line of attack is over because Joe Biden's Presidential campaign itself is in effect over. Nobody thinks Biden is going to be the Democratic nominee.
Elizabeth Warren is the front runner now. That's not contested. The race is now hers to lose.
So during last night's debate, her rivals on the stage decide to help her do just that -- lose. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D-IN), MAYOR, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Your signature, Senator is to have a plan for everything, except this.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At least Bernie is being honest here in saying how he is going to pay for this and that taxes are going to go up, and I'm sorry, Elizabeth, but you have not said that.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm going to say something that is probably going to offend some people here, but I'm the only one in this stage that has gotten anything really big done.
KLOBUCHAR: And I appreciate Elizabeth's work. But again, the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something that you can actually get done.
BIDEN: I went on the floor and got you votes. I got votes for that bill.
I convinced people to vote for it.
KLOBUCHAR: I want to give a reality check here to Elizabeth because no one on this stage wants to protect billionaires, not even the billionaire wants to protect billionaires.
BETO O'ROURKE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Sometimes, I think that Senator Warren is more focused on being punitive or pitting some part of the country against the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: She is punitive? When Beto O'Rourke, Mr. Armed Federal Agents coming to your house calls you out for divisive attacks, it's time to pay attention and in fact, he does make a fair point.
The main reason Warren has surpassed Bernie Sanders in the hearts of primary voters despite pretty close economic programs is that she is the one far more willing to descend into the filth of identity politics.
Bernie is an ideologue. There are some things that he just won't say.
Elizabeth Warren will say anything.
Just minutes ago, she tweeted this, quote, "Every person deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. And that starts with using correct pronouns. I'm Elizabeth. My pronouns are she, her and hers."
In case you were wondering, in case there was any question at all. That kind of posturing is central to Elizabeth Warren's campaign, she is happy to tell you and often does, that you're worth less or you're worth more based on how you were born. Unfortunately, that works right now in the Democratic Party.
One thing Elizabeth Warren is not willing to say, however, is how much her single payer government healthcare plan will cost -- trillions of dollars, obviously. Nobody disputes that. Nobody disputes that.
And in fact, as a mathematical matter, there's no way to raise that kind of money without hiking taxes on the middle class. It's simple arithmetic.
And yet for some reason, Warren refuses to admit that. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC LACEY, NATIONAL EDITOR, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": You have not specified how you're going to pay for the most expensive plan Medicare-for-All. Will you raise taxes on the middle class to pay for it? Yes or no?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So I have made clear but my principles are here and that is costs will go up for the wealthy and for big corporations and for hard working middle class families, costs will go down.
LACEY: Mayor Buttigieg, you say Senator Warren has been quote, "evasive" about how she is going to pay for Medicare-for-All. What's your response?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, we heard it tonight. A yes or no question that didn't get a yes or no answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Save that tape. There are a lot of moments in debates that seem like a huge deal at the time. Everyone is yapping about them. But in the end, it turned out to be completely meaningless.
This is not one of those moments. Healthcare is always at the top of voters concerns and so are taxes for that matter.
If Elizabeth Warren can't even explain her own signature plan to rearrange the entire American healthcare system, she can't win.
Even a post-debate MSNBC panel acknowledged as much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLAIRE MCCASKILL, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I thought she seemed a little petulant at times when she was being challenged.
EUGENE ROBINSON, AMERICAN COLUMNIST: You think, a little?
MCCASKILL: A little.
ROBINSON: Bernie Sanders says she just won't go there and she was pummeled for it.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR: They attacked her and she was uncomfortable. She did not handle it very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: So was it really that bad for Elizabeth Warren last night? We'll see. She definitely got better treatment than Joe Biden got. Journalists don't like Joe Biden. Biden has zero allies in America's woke newsrooms.
Warren by contrast has plenty of allies pretending to be journalists.
For example, this morning, NYU Journalism Professor Jay Rosen, the guy whose name often pops up despite no talent whatsoever, demanded that reporters stop asking specific questions about Warren's policies.
Again, a journalism professor telling you not to ask questions, quote, "The 'make Elizabeth Warren They should raise taxes on the middle class' question should be a credibility killer for the journalists who keep asking it." End quote.
Now amazingly, Margaret Sullivan of "The Washington Post" agreed with that.
She wrote this. "Journalists are kindly doing President Trump's work for him when they insist on trying to pin down Senator Elizabeth Warren to declare she would raise taxes to fund Medicare-for-All. Of course, it's legitimate to dig into the costs, but not in a way that creates a nice GOP campaign ad."
You listened to that? Two journalists telling you, if the answer hurts Democrats, don't ask the question. Don't tell your readers or viewers what the truth is if it increases the chances that Donald Trump could get reelected. Is that journalism? No, it's pure propaganda.
It is the definition of propaganda. Jay Rosen, Journalism Professor, telling journalists not to ask questions. Unbelievable.
Dana Perino always ask questions. She is of course, our colleague here at Fox. She hosts "The Daily Briefing" and she is our go-to person for post- debate analysis. So what's your --
DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS HOST: That's unbelievable. I mean, I didn't see -- I hadn't seen the Jay Rosen and the Sullivan piece - that is pretty remarkable.
CARLSON: To admit that? I mean, I've got certain strong political opinions. Very strong. I mean, I host a whole show based on them.
But as a journalist, which I actually am, it's impossible to imagine telling someone, don't ask that question because it can help the other side. I mean, who thinks like that? Partisans think like that. That's what it usually is.
PERINO: Yes, that is not good. And thanks for having me on. I love to talk about these debates. I think that Warren found out that you know, she's not the Professor anymore, and she doesn't like to be challenged.
Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg basically said, it's not fair for you to say that none of us have courageous ideas. They really went after her.
Now, you don't usually get that at Harvard. Right? You're Professor. You tell everybody.
PERINO: It's kind of a scold. Right? Like when Tulsi Gabbard was talking, she was like, how dare you? Kamala Harris had the -- it's like, why didn't you sign my letter, you know, my chain letter to get the President off Twitter? And she's like dismissive of that.
And she kind of came across as it's her way or the wrong way.
CARLSON: Definitely, and it's not an appealing look. And I wonder if that posture played any role in what was it? I thought a genuinely surprising development. Bernie Sanders gets the endorsement of Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez. I didn't see that coming. Is it a significant thing? Why did it happen?
PERINO: You know, I didn't see it either. And I do think it was the only big surprise of the night. And partly because, you know, just two weeks ago, many people including the media, were saying, wow, after the heart attack, Bernie Sanders, he's done, basically wrapping up his campaign.
That didn't happen.
He had a ton of energy. He looked great and then you look at this endorsement. He announces that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and the rest of the squad, they are going to endorse him and they're going to appear at a rally with him. They've already cut ads for him. That was a genuine surprise.
But I still think that it's a nice gift for Bernie. But his goose is cooked. He can be very happy that his ideas will live on. But I don't think that Elizabeth Warren would necessarily even want AOC's endorsement right now -- if she thinks that she's going to go into a general election.
CARLSON: It's interesting. What was the significance other than being compelling television, the exchange between Beto O'Rourke and Pete Buttigieg on guns?
PERINO: Okay, so they had this -- it was a really interesting back and forth and also because they at least faced each other and talked. You could see there was some disdain between the two of them.
Now, what Beto had tried to do is to take an issue that the left mostly agrees on -- gun control -- but he went so far to the left that he pulled everybody basically back to the center and he is a lone person over down the left on mandatory gun confiscation and Pete Buttigieg was saying that's just not going to -- that's not going to work.
And he was saying, I'm much more practical. I want to try to get a little something. We don't have to be so pure here.
I think that Beto O'Rourke, it's a zombie candidacy right now. It's dead, but he might not know it yet.
CARLSON: And finally, Biden, you and I have had a lot of conversations about Joe Biden whether or not this is a real campaign or not. As of now, is it?
PERINO: Well, good, gets better and bad gets worse. And I think that last night was not a great night for him.
Now, I can say that. I can look at that and say I don't think that was a great debate. However, his base of support has remained pretty strong.
CARLSON: I know.
PERINO: But keep in mind, he has now spent more money than he has raised.
He has been outraised -- or has -- four of the other candidates have more cash on hand that he does right now.
The other thing that we didn't even talk about, there was a new entrant last night, Tom Steyer, the billionaire. He spent, I think, over $40 million to get on that debate stage and wore a tie that I didn't know he wears the same tie every day though he has five of them because he's a billionaire and you can afford five ties.
But if you could afford five ties, I don't know if those would be the five that you bought.
CARLSON: You're sweet, but it's a nice way to put it. No, that would definitely not be the tie. And speaking of billionaires, before you go, I want to tell our audience because I want them to see this.
Dana has an interview with the man who founded Facebook, sitting down with Mark Zuckerberg. I can think of about a hundred questions to ask him. I know that you will ask him. That interview will air on Friday on "The Daily Briefing," 2:00 p.m. Eastern, this Friday, and I'm going to be sitting at my desk watching that.
PERINO: Thank you. Well, if I see you tomorrow, I'll find out what your questions are.
CARLSON: We've already talked. Great to see you, Dana. Thanks so much.
CARLSON: Well, Elizabeth Warren isn't simply wary of telling the truth about her healthcare plan and what it would cost. She seems to have a turbulent relationship with the truth in general, certainly on topics pertaining to her biography.
Now as you know, she lied for years about being an American-Indian. In fact, last night was the one-year anniversary of her DNA test. We celebrated silently on the show.
She's also lied about getting fired for being pregnant. Did made the story about a polio-stricken colleague chasing her around the office like a triathlete. It's hard to find in fact an episode from her life that she hasn't spun into a tall tale.
And tonight we have a new example. The story one tells about her parents' marriage. For details, we go tonight to Independent Women's Voice Senior Fellow, Lisa Boothe, who as usual has them. Hey, Lisa.
LISA BOOTHE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Tucker. It's almost comical but, yes, so as we saw on the debate last night, she came under scrutiny for her policy positions and not being honest about them.
However, what was missing and absent from the criticism were all these lies that she has told about her bio, and there's this one, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My daddy was in his teens when he fell in love with my mother. She was a beautiful girl who played the piano and he was head over heels in love with her and wanted to marry her, and his family was bitterly opposed to that because she was part Native-American.
And eventually, my parents eloped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOOTHE: So a genealogist, a Cherokee genealogist looked into this -- Twila Barnes -- and found that one, which is unsurprising, there's absolutely no evidence of Cherokee ancestry in her family.
But what's more is Elizabeth Warren has been saying, look, these are the stories that my family members have told me. These this is why I believe these things.
However, this genealogist also looked in to the underlying facts that she has said about the story and found them to not be true as well.
For instance, Grant Herring who is her grand -- Elizabeth Warren's grandfather -- he had a great relationship with a guy named Carnal Wheeling, who was a member of Cherokee Nation. They went golfing together.
Carnal attended her grandparents' 25th Wedding Anniversary in 1936.
Additionally, her parents' wedding announcement was made in a local newspaper. It seemed like it was a happy event, not something that was shameful to the family, either. So a lot of the inconsistencies and found really nothing about the story was true.
CARLSON: Nothing about the story was true. I've heard that before.
BOOTHE: Yes. It's a familiar pattern, right, just a little bit.
CARLSON: They got it in the script. Lisa Boothe. Great to see you tonight.
BOOTHE: Thanks, Tucker.
CARLSON: America's former Ambassador to Ukraine may have ordered government personnel to monitor journalists and allies of President Trump.
Our Chief Breaking News Correspondent Trace Gallagher has the latest on this breaking story.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CHIEF BREAKING NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Tucker.
Yes, the center of this is Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine appointed by Obama and ousted by President Trump.
Yovanovitch made headlines last week when she testified before the House Intel Committee as part of the Democrats' Impeachment Inquiry.
Now, two sources with close knowledge of the situation confirmed to TUCKER CARLSON TONIGHT that in the spring of 2019, the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine requested that several journalists and people close to President Trump have their social media accounts monitored.
This happened following news reports that Yovanovitch had an anti-Trump bias. The list includes 13 people including our own Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Lou Dobbs, as well as Fox News contributors Sara Carter and Dan Bongino along with Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump, Jr.
According to the sources, the monitoring lasted for at least a few days before stopping because the State Department is not allowed to conduct this sort of monitoring of U.S. citizens, obviously.
The Conservative government watchdog Judicial Watch has now filed a Freedom of Information Act request to the State Department seeking, quoting here, " ... any and all records regarding, concerning, or related to the monitoring of any U.S.-based journalist reporter or media commentator by any employee or office of the Department of State between January 1, 2019 and the present."
Judicial Watch says they have information that indicated Yovanovitch directly ordered subordinates to target this list of people -- Tucker.
CARLSON: Shocking story, I would say. Trace Gallagher, thank you for that.
CARLSON: Well, just a few minutes from now, Megyn Kelly joins us for her first televised interview since she left NBC. We will ask her about Harvey Weinstein and a lot of things that happened over at NBC.
But first, last night's debate made it clear than ever that the press room truly hates a candidate called Tulsi Gabbard. Why is that? How is she responding to it? She joins us next.
CARLSON: Joe Biden's presidential campaign is in Lusitania territory sinking beneath the waves, but he is still traveling in style.
According to recent disclosures, Biden's campaign spent more than $900,000.00 on private jets just in the third quarter of this year in a nationwide campaign for a country of 320 million. One in every $16.00 from Biden's campaign treasury went to flying private.
I don't actually blame Joe Biden, he has got a message that he is desperate to disseminate as far and wide as he can. The message: We must confront the existential threat of global warming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I can't wait for us to take on what is happening to our climate and its existential threat to the world. I can't wait.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: I can't wait. You know what can wait though? Flying in coach like a prul, an existential threat to the entire planet is nothing compared to the marginal comfort of one failing Presidential candidate.
Well, Elizabeth Warren versus the field was not the only battle that unfolded during last night's Democratic debate. There was also Tulsi Gabbard versus the entire U.S. press corps.
Unlike virtually everyone else in her party, Gabbard believes in keeping America out of pointless foreign entanglements and for that belief, she has been tarred repeatedly and very aggressively as a foreign agent. Last night she hit back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TULSI GABBARD, (D-HI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: "The New York Times" and CNN have also smeared veterans like myself for calling for an end to this regime change war.
Just two days ago, "The New York Times" put out an article saying that I'm a Russian asset and an Assad apologist and all of these different smears.
This morning, a CNN commentator said on national television, that I'm an asset of Russia -- completely despicable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Yes, and CNN doesn't care for her either. We know that for a fact because recent footage from Project Veritas shows a CNN employee conceding that the network is institutionally hostile to Tulsi Gabbard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIAN SIERRA, CNN MEDIA CONTRIBUTOR: I think the one they don't like is Tulsi, they don't like Tulsi Gabbard.
QUESTION: Now why do you think?
SIERRA: Because she supports Assad and she is ... she's not taking a conventional route when it comes to one policy, stuff like. But she is actually pretty liberal. But, when it comes to that one position, like I think there's a lot of people who are not cool with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii joins us tonight. So, Congresswoman, you just heard that. I don't know if you've seen that. I know you've been on the road. But there's a CNN employee saying for taking an unconventional foreign policy position, you are the one Democratic candidate that CNN doesn't like. Does that surprise you?
GABBARD: It doesn't. You know, I think it's kind of absurd, actually, that as we saw in the days leading up to the debate last night, both "The New York Times" and CNN both ran hit pieces.
Today, the day after the debate, we see more of these hit pieces coming out, and for them to sit there and try to portray themselves as neutral arbiters, as objective and independent entities working with the D.N.C. to carry out a legitimate debate is frankly -- it's just a joke.
That's one of the reasons why I've been calling for, you know, a nonprofit organization like the League of Women Voters to actually host these debates in a way that actually serves the interests of voters, not the profit, you know, the profit-bearing corporate interests of the corporate media.
CARLSON: I couldn't agree more. So just for our viewers who maybe haven't followed this, when we say you've been attacked by "The New York Times" and CNN, it's not attacked, like they're saying your healthcare plan is too expensive.
CARLSON: They're saying that you're working for a foreign power against America's interest - that you're a traitor to our country. That "New York Times" piece essentially said that. What is this about?
GABBARD: Well, this is exactly what happens to those like myself who are trying to end this regime change war in Syria, who are calling for an end to our country's policy of being the world's police, bring about an end to these regime change wars.
And this is something that is not just happening to me, you know, when they're issuing these smear attacks really what they're doing is smearing anyone who's calling for an end to these regime change wars, including veterans who I meet almost every single day all across this country who are not pacifists, but who understand and know firsthand the cost of war, and who are strongly, strongly calling for our country to put an end to these counterproductive regime change wars.
GABBARD: So when they are issuing these smears and calling me a traitor to my country, they're essentially issuing these smears and attacks to every veteran who has been willing to lay their lives down in service to our country.
CARLSON: You know, there are many things we don't agree on, but one of the reasons I'm so sympathetic to you in what you're doing is because I've been there. I know exactly what you're saying. And what you're saying is absolutely real. It's the one subject that they won't accept any deviation on.
And so you deserve credit, I think, for your bravery in going forward.
Thank you. Tulsi Gabbard. Great to see you tonight.
GABBARD: Thanks, Tucker.
CARLSON: It's been almost a full year since Megyn Kelly left NBC News.
She has not done a single TV interview since. She has a lot to say. She joins us next.
CARLSON: For a decade, Megyn Kelly was a fixture here at Fox. In early 2017, she moved to NBC where among many other things, she anchored the third hour of the "Today" show. It turned out to be a very turbulent year for NBC.
NBC executives were caught covering up for accused sex criminal, Harvey Weinstein. Meanwhile, the network's most famous anchor, Matt Lauer fled the building after he was implicated in a laundry list of misdeeds. An awful lot of drama for one network.
Megyn Kelly was right there to see all of it. She left her show last October. She has not done a single televised interview since. We're happy to have her on our set tonight.
Megyn Kelly joins us now.
Megyn, good to see you.
MEGYN KELLY, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: Hi. Good to be with you.
CARLSON: So, this Ronan Farrow book adds details to what we essentially knew, which is that NBC executives, Andy Lack, practically Noah Oppenheim, I think the head of NBC News, covered up for Harvey Weinstein.
So, here's what Ronan Farrow's book says, and I want your reaction to this quote.
Farrow brings a recording made by the NYPD to NBC and in it, Harvey Weinstein admits that he abused an Italian model, on tape.
Noah Oppenheim, head of the news division, responds this way, quote: My view is that the tape and Harvey Weinstein grabbing a lady's breast a couple of years ago, that's not national news.
Does that surprise you, having worked there?
KELLY: You know, nothing surprises me anymore, Tucker, in this industry.
I -- as I watched the Ronan story unfold, his book has come out, Ronan Farrow, "Catch and Kill", the number one thing I've wanted to know is what did they know and when did they know it?
KELLY: Because I've been reporting on this story even while I was at NBC.
I talked to Ronan. I talked to his producer, Rich McHugh. I talked to Rose McGowan. I talked to many Harvey Weinstein victims and accusers and was getting to the bottom of what NBC knew while I was there, and then just independently.
And the question is, what did they know about Matt Lauer prior to the time the woman came forward who was ultimately his downfall? She came forward.
Her name is Brooke Nevils. Made an allegation against Matt Lauer.
And the company's whole defense to Ronan's book essentially has been, that's the first we ever knew about Matt Lauer. There was no deal between us and Harvey Weinstein -- to cover up for Harvey Weinstein so that we wouldn't report on Matt Lauer, because we didn't even know that Matt Lauer was doing this. We had no notice of it whatsoever.
CARLSON: Is that -- is that a plausible claim?
KELLY: If they had no settlements of any kind and no complaints about Matt Lauer prior to Brooke Nevils coming forward -- sure, it might be. But is that true?
Here's what they are saying: no settlements of any kind. No settlements.
Well, that's a legal sleight of hand. You can get paid out as a sexual harassment victim in something other than a settlement. You can get what's called enhanced severance. That's the situation where the receptionist is suddenly getting a seven-figure goodbye.
KELLY: She was like an amazing typist. Did so well, right?
And it's just severance. It's not a settlement. It's just like -- hey, and, by the way, if you could just be really quiet about NBC forevermore, we'd really appreciate it.
That's what we need to know. They haven't gotten specific about what monies were paid out to whom. Show us the money.
The number one thing that needs to happen now is they need to release any and all Matt Lauer accusers from their confidentiality agreements.
NBC says it has nothing to hide. Great. Let's not hide anything.
Show us all of the agreements, the enhanced severance agreements that were reached or at least the numbers so we can see which ones pop out, which ones are super high. And are they all women? And do they all have a connection with Matt Lauer?
And number two, release the women from their confidentiality obligations.
CARLSON: So, this probably would be known right now if the network had conducted an independent investigation.
Last September, early September, you on your show on the air on NBC called for an independent investigation into these allegations. I think we have the tape of you doing this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: But there's a question about whether there should be an outside investigator to take a hard look at this, you know, between the investigation NBC did internally on Matt Lauer to now this -- you know, there's the question of the faith and confidence of the public and the reporting of NBC on matters involving itself.
And it's -- to me, as a lawyer, it's just always better if you just send it outside. And then people can have more faith in it, and if there's nothing to hide, you have no worries about it. You know, you have nothing to worry about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: So, people's jaws hung open when you said that. There had been a couple of published accounts that say you were fired from NBC a little more than a month later for saying that.
With that in mind, without even having you comment on it, I want to get your response to something that an anchor at MSNBC did two nights ago.
Chris Hayes addressed the credibility of the president of NBC News directly on his show. He said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR: Oppenheim and others have also maintained since Farrow's departure two years ago, the Weinstein story was never broadcast because it lacked sufficient, on-the-record sourcing, even after NBC supported Farrow's assignment for seven months.
One thing though is indisputable, Ronan Farrow walked out of NBC News after working on the Weinstein story and within two months published an incredible article at "The New Yorker".
The path of least resistance is always there, beckoning seductively with an entirely plausible cover story. You've got bigger fish to fry. This isn't the hill to die on, the story isn't ready. But, of course, it's the very ease of that path that makes it the enemy, the kind of work that we, as journalists, are supposed to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: He is saying essentially what you said, which he doesn't trust the management at NBC News.
Given your experience, do you think he's in jeopardy of being fired?
KELLY: No comment on that. But I will say the question is open as to whether they put dollars ahead of decency, about whether they were more interested in protecting their star anchor than they were in protecting the women of the company.
There needs to be an outside investigation into this company. They investigated themselves. That doesn't work.
KELLY: FOX News had an outside investigator. CBS News had an outside investigator. NPR, the NFL -- this is how it's done. You get somebody on the outside who can be trusted.
What happened here is you've got Noah Oppenheim, who now they are pulling his college writings were he said, women love to be preyed on. Apparently, he thinks women love to be preyed upon.
OK. Now, Noah has said, I deeply regret that and I'm sorry for what I wrote in college. And people do write dumb-ass things in college --
CARLSON: Of course.
KELLY: -- and say dumb things. Trust me.
But that's the person who was -- who's investigating himself.
Andy Lack, Noah's -- I'm sorry, the reporting that Ronan has put out is that there is an accuser, or, a woman named Jane Wallace who said she was bullied out of her job when working for Andy years ago. She had a consensual affair with him but then she says she was retaliated against.
And she says he relentlessly preyed on female underlings.
If these are the people overseeing the investigation into NBC, right, they had Kim Harris, the general counsel do the investigation --
KELLY: -- how are people supposed to trust it? That's why you've got to get somebody on the outside.
CARLSON: But it's also -- there's a striking irony. So, even as the management of NBC clearly ignored sexual misconduct and abuse within their own building, they seemed to pump up and abet wild and unsubstantiated allegations of sexual misconduct against people whose politics they don't like.
So, for example, I watched you on a panel at NBC when you worked there last year on Kavanaugh, was the last story I think you covered before you left.
There was Savannah Guthrie, Lester Holt, and Chuck Todd were all on this panel. You were the only person on the panel who held out the possibility that maybe Brett Kavanaugh was not a rapist.
Did you feel like the only person who was capable of being objective on that question?
KELLY: Well, I mean, there's no question that the reporting that was done at NBC on somebody like, let's take Julie Swetnick --
KELLY: -- who was the completely discredited, alleged third accuser against Kavanaugh. This is the woman whose story had -- I mean, tons of holes in it. There was a date rape and everybody saw it and then nobody saw it. And she basically imploded on the air.
She's an Avenatti client, remember?
CARLSON: Yes, vividly.
KELLY: They went to air with that story, with far less trepidation. Then they showed in going to air on the Harvey Weinstein story for which they had tapes. They had tapes. They had witnesses. They had women on the record. Rose McGowan was just one of them.
And there is a question of why, right? Was it political, as you suggest here? Was it something else? Was it to protect somebody internally?
Someone who wasn't the women of the company, right?
Because here, what Ronan is suggesting is that they covered up for one sexual predator, Harvey Weinstein, in order to protect another, Matt Lauer.
They deny all of this. And NBC has put out several statements saying that Ronan is a conspiracy theorist and this is all nonsense and he's got an ax to grind.
KELLY: But if that's true and there's nothing to hide, then get an outside investigator.
CARLSON: Yes, if there's nothing to hide.
There's more to talk about. We're going to take a quick break.
CARLSON: We're not finished.
Up next, we'll ask about what appears to be really an epidemic of political journalism in this country and whether the DNC ought to cancel its next debate on MSNBC. Some in the left are calling for that.
We'll be right back.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Megyn Kelly hasn't been on TV for years. She's got a lot to say. We're happy to have her in our studio tonight.
Thanks to Ronan Farrow, in the last week, we've learned a lot about the lengths to which some NBC executives went in order to cover up sexual abuse. The details are so stunning, even some on the left, presumably NBC viewers themselves, have expressed outrage.
Earlier today, the feminist group Ultraviolet issued this statement, quote: The DNC needs to make it clear they support survivors of sexual abuse and cancel the upcoming 2020 Democratic presidential primary debate on MSNBC until Comcast and NBC News take clear steps to clean up the toxic culture that exists across their networks.
Megyn Kelly, do you think there's any chance the DNC will act on that?
KELLY: I do think there's a chance. I do.
I mean, I think if this were FOX News and FOX News were hosting a Democratic debate in conjunction with "The Washington Post" --
KELLY: -- they'd be putting on the full-court press to make sure FOX was out or FOX made some sort of a promise to clean up its act.
So I do -- I take that seriously because once -- you know, people are not screwing around anymore --
KELLY: -- when it comes to the treatment of women.
KELLY: And what used to be tolerated will not be tolerated anymore. And it's not that we have a perfect culture like that when we recognize there's a problem. It's that companies are given the opportunity to sort of come clean, investigate what the problems are, and come up with real solutions.
NBC says it's done that. They say you can trust Kim Harris, the internal G.C.
And Ronan has given us about 400 reasons to doubt that, right?
KELLY: So, it's really up to the public. Are they going to put the pressure on them to do something, to get an outside investigator, or aren't they?
CARLSON: So, one of the most amazing I think details in the book and maybe not so surprising, is that Hillary Clinton applied pressure to Farrow. He says, not to pursue the Harvey Weinstein story.
And so, I wonder and, of course, I don't know the truth. That's his claim.
Why has no one asked Hillary Clinton about this? I wonder.
KELLY: Maybe eventually they will. I mean, there are a lot of fish to fry there.
KELLY: And I think Hillary's spokesperson has come out and said, it was nothing and it's been misrepresented, right?
KELLY: So, they're kind of denying that.
But, look, more needs to happen in order for us to get to the bottom of this. You've got -- NBC says there was no way for them to know any of this, right? Because they didn't know anything until Brooke Nevils came in and only at that point did a couple more women come forward and say, you know, me too.
The truth is that we've seen already, there was Addie Zinone. She came on my show. I had her on my show while I was at NBC.
She had a consensual affair with Lauer. She was 24 years old. He plucked her out of being a P.A. and started an affair with her.
Then, there was Brooke Nevils, 30 years old, assistant to Meredith Vieira, who, same thing. And, you know, all the multiple ways of, you know -- and she says she was raped by him. He's denied that and said it was a consensual affair.
There was Melissa Lonner, who said he exposed himself to her one night after an NBC party and that she ultimately went and left the company.
There was a woman who claimed she had sex with him in his office and she fainted. It was so traumatic.
CARLSON: Oh, I remember.
KELLY: There's Ann Curry says it was an open secret.
So, the question is, did they -- if they didn't know, why didn't they know?
CARLSON: Well, they're lying.
KELLY: Why didn't they?
CARLSON: They're lying, but it doesn't diminish the self-righteousness with which they approach other people since, I noticed.
So, I want to ask you since, you know, you worked here at FOX News, you worked at NBC, you've got some perspective. I want to ask you about the state of journalism today, and I want to start with a clip from last night's debate.
This is Anderson Cooper at CNN asking a question of the former Vice President Joe Biden. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN MODERATOR: The impeachment inquiry is centered on President Trump's attempts to get political dirt from Ukraine on Vice President Biden and his son, Hunter.
Mr. Vice President, President Trump has falsely accused your son of doing something wrong while serving on a company board in Ukraine. I want to point out, there's no evidence of wrongdoing by either one of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: So what kind of journalist begins a question to a politician by reassuring him that attacks by his opponents are false and he's actually innocent? Is that -- is that a question?
KELLY: So, the answer was kind of baked into the question there, right?
CARLSON: It was.
KELLY: It's clear you did nothing wrong but did you do anything wrong?
KELLY: Listen, that wasn't Anderson's best moment. I like Anderson. That wasn't his best moment.
I think his question would have been fine if he said, you didn't do anything illegal. No one has alleged you did anything illegal, because really what the guy did was he sat on a board.
Hunter Biden has no expertise in Ukraine. He has no expertise on natural gas. He takes his job sitting on the board of this Ukrainian company for 50,000 bucks a month while his dad is the vice president.
And the reason he got the job is presumably his last name is Biden. So they're paying for access. They are paying for, you know, the association.
Is that -- is that corrupt? You could make a very strong argument that it is. So, is it wrong? Well, that's up to the voters to decide.
So, you know, maybe he could have reworded that. Maybe he would like that one back.
CARLSON: But it's of -- and I agree with you, by the way. I know Anderson Cooper fairly well. I don't think he's the worst offender.
But this is part of a larger tapestry here. And it adds up to basically partisan interference in an election. I mean, you have journalists who feel that their first obligation is to help a candidate or hurt another candidate.
KELLY: Oh, yes.
CARLSON: That's not journalism.
KELLY: Oh, 100 percent. And this goes back to right before Trump was elected.
Jorge Ramos of Univision came on my show. And we had a very heartfelt discussion about journalism in America. And he made a strong plea for journalists to abandon neutrality.
He said it's -- it's -- that's over. You've got to come out and you've got to say Trump is a racist. Trump is a misogynist. Trump is a bigot.
Whatever -- you know, whatever your view is, you've got to say it and you got sell it, and that the time for neutrality has passed.
And I do believe he's persuaded and others have come to their own conclusion that that's the way forward. That's why we had a question -- there was another CNN debate where Don Lemon specifically said, how do you answer voters who prioritize the economy over Trump's bigotry? Right? So, there's a judgment in there.
CARLSON: A judgment? Yes.
KELLY: Right -- I'm just saying fine, OK, so fine, many people may agree with that. But it's the anchor's subjective judgment and it doesn't belong, in my view, in a debate question.
Same way as "The New York Times" is arguing, the old schoolers with the young folks, about whether "The Times" should be, quote, part of the resistance.
CARLSON: But I guess -- the problem that I have with it is not that someone shows an opinion. I've got a million opinions, is that they're lying about what it is. And they are saying, we're journalists, we're objective.
KELLY: That it's fake news.
CARLSON: Why can't they drop the pretense and be honest with us and tell us --
CARLSON: -- we're partisan combatants, because they are.
KELLY: We already know. I mean, that's the real joke, right? It's like we already know.
FOX News was founded, you know, in 1996, right? They just had their birthday -- on the premise that the other side of the stories weren't being told, and that half the country was being ignored and that if you did fair and balanced news, the people would watch.
And there was a premise that the other media, the mainstream media, maybe they weren't far left, right, but that there was a baked-in bias against people who believe in homeschooling, who believe in a pro-life position, who might have a gun, right? And so, they made a whole empire based on programming to those people.
I think what's happened now on the other half of the country, on the sort of the mainstream, and they just -- they gone -- they've embraced it. It was sort of passive and now it's active.
Now, it's let's work. He's too bad. We have to work together.
KELLY: We'll be judged. History will judge us as whether we were for or against this man.
CARLSON: OK. So, we were planning to bring you a Dennis Rodman segment, which we had a pretape earlier. We're going to save that for tomorrow.
This is interesting, if you don't mind staying.
CARLSON: We'll be right back.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
We promised you a conversation with Dennis Rodman on China in this segment, then we got carried away talking to Megyn Kelly. So, we're going to continue that and we will bring Dennis Rodman tomorrow.
KELLY: Wah-wah --
CARLSON: No, and we're happy -- we're happy we did. So, I have to ask you --
KELLY: Rodman is a great interview.
CARLSON: So, you spent all these years in the news business. You've taken a year off. You've been thinking, assessing, probably watching some news, I hope.
KELLY: A little.
CARLSON: A little.
Two days ago, this report comes out from Project Veritas and CNN and in it, whatever you think of their methods, they have the head of CNN, Jeff Zucker, instructing his employees -- impeachment, impeachment, impeachment.
We're hitting impeachment no matter what. It doesn't matter what you think. Impeachment is the only story that matters.
That sounded more like a political campaign to me than a news judgment.
KELLY: Well, I mean, impeachment is a big story, right?
CARLSON: For sure.
KELLY: And if the president of the United States is going to get impeached and possibly bounced out of office, it's a major, major story.
CARLSON: I would say.
KELLY: So, I think that's defensible on the part of Jeff Zucker.
But I do think sort of the hyper focus on it by most of the media at the expense of all else is not new, right? Since the day Trump got into office, they've been hyper focused on impeachment.
And this is one of the problems that the Democrats and also to some extent the media is up against. That from the day he took office, it was the 25th Amendment, the emoluments clause, Russia, Russia, Russia, obstruction of justice. All of those things, he has to be impeached.
And if everything is an 11, nothing is an 11.
KELLY: So, now, they may have actually stumbled upon an 11, right?
They've got the transcript. Whatever Trump said it was a perfect call, you can make an argument. Uh-huh.
But no one is paying as much attention as they otherwise would have if we hadn't been told from the beginning that he needs to be bounced out of office. So, you know, I don't know. They can ratchet up the coverage all they want. I don't know whether they're convincing anyone who is on the fence or in the middle.
CARLSON: At all. I mean, it seems like people are starting to tune out in general from news coverage because of -- like how long can you keep the fever pitch?
KELLY: Well, because in our outrage culture, right? It's like, what am I supposed to be outraged about? I'm going to get there. I'm going to get outraged. Just give me two seconds, and I'm going to -- and then you're like Ukraine, all right.
CARLSON: What about -- you remember, we talked about this at the time. At Trump's election, there was -- you heard people say we need to think about who his voters are. There's a whole world out there we in the media know nothing about.
CARLSON: We should be sympathetic to these Trump voters. That lasted for about 15 seconds.
KELLY: No, that -- you're wrong. They looked and they're like, oh, never mind! It was -- I think it was a conscious decision we don't want to go into that world.
KELLY: Right? Look at them with their guns and then their cowboy hats.
I just don't think that the mainstream media has any connection to flyover country and when they meander through Montana, they've never seen such a thing. Like it's a rodeo and they talk differently. They have different values.
CARLSON: But shouldn't they want to understand the country they cover?
KELLY: Look, I think they think they do, right? I think they believe they do. But, you know, I think most people, for example, take a look at that - - the guy in Washington State who wouldn't bake the cake for the gay couple, and they just think, bigot. Bigot.
CARLSON: The media.
KELLY: Yes. And the problem is it's so much more complicated than that.
CARLSON: That's for sure.
CARLSON: So, speaking of -- I have to ask you, since you've had this very well-covered career --
CARLSON: -- and you've taken a year to think, what have you learned after all of this? Everything that's happened, would you say?
KELLY: Very little. I don't learn so well. Yes.
CARLSON: Is that true?
KELLY: I've learned -- I'm like Woody Allen. I am 48 years old. I've learned nothing.
No. I have learned a thing or two. I mean, I've -- what comes to mind is the goodness of humanity. You know, how -- the kindness of strangers.
Just as awful as the media can be, actual humans are awesome and loving and kind and helpful.
And really, I think about it, Tucker, because I left FOX News in January of
'17 and the reason I left is because I wanted to be with my family, right?
I was missing my kids' childhood. They were little, like, 7, 5, and 3.
So, I could still see it. And I could still be part of it.
And now, I'm doing it. You know, I have spent the past year in particular but even before that, with them and I'm mothering my own kids. And there's no substitute for that, you know?
I lost my dad when I was 15 years old, and so I know, I know on an inherent basis. You don't get a do-over, right?
CARLSON: That's true.
KELLY: So, I'm there and I'm enjoying it. And I -- I'll get back on that horse soon because this has been fun. So, I will probably get back out there. But right now, I'm still enjoying my day-to-day life with my family and friends.
CARLSON: Megyn Kelly, thank you for the conversation.
KELLY: Thanks for having me, Tucker.
CARLSON: Appreciate it. That's it for us tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night. The show that's the sworn enemy of lying, pomposity, smugness and groupthink.
Good night from Washington.
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