Trump's taxes and the 2016 campaign

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 3, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino, Greg Gutfeld and a special guest tonight. You will see who in a moment. Its 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Thirty-six days before Election Day, Donald trump finds himself addressing a new controversy, this time over his taxes. Right now the republican nominee is addressing a crowd in Pueblo, Colorado. Moments ago, he responded to a "New York Times" report that alleges he might have legally avoided paying any federal income tax for 18 years.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The unfairness of the tax laws is unbelievable. It's something I've been talking about for a long time despite, frankly, being a big beneficiary of the laws, but I'm working for you now, I'm not working for Trump. As a businessman and real estate developer, I have legally used the tax laws to my benefit and to the benefit of my company, my investors and my employees. I mean, honestly, I have brilliantly -- I have brilliantly used those laws.


GUILFOYLE: His opponent, of course, pounced on "The New York times" report.


HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Trump represents the same rigged system that he claims he is going to change, taking from America with both hands and leaving the rest of us with the bill. What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a fiscal year?


CLINTON: This is Trump to a T. He abuses his power, games the system .


CLINTON: . puts his own interests ahead of the country's its Trump first and everyone else last.


GUILFOYLE: The Trump team sees the story as a huge positive for the candidate.


RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: The reality is, he is a genius. What he did was he took advantage .


GIULIANI: . of something that could save his enterprise. And he did something we admire in America, he came back. The art of the deal is all about that. He talks about it, so does Steve Jobs, so did Winston Churchill. I would rather have a genius like Donald Trump running this country than someone like Hillary Clinton --

CHRIS CHRISTIE, NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: There's no one who has shown more genius in their way to maneuver around the tax codes and see, rightfully used the laws to do that. This is a guy who went lots of businesses went out of business in the early 1990's. He fought and clawed back to build another fortune to create tens of thousands of more jobs. And this is actually a very, very good story for Donald Trump.


GUILFOYLE: More importantly, what does Bill O'Reilly think? Yes, he is our fabulous special guest today .


GUILFOYLE: . and he is going to tell us. So, did you hear he also got a new bestselling book out .


GUILFOYLE: …called "Killing the Rising Sun" -- all the others needed a company, yes. And we're going to talk to him about a little bit later in the program, but first, let's pick his brain on politics. So what do you think about the story, Trump taxes? Is it something that should resonate? Do you think that it will for people to say they don't want to vote for this guy because he got a break and lost money .


GUILFOYLE: . and played the tax code?

O'REILLY: Well, it is three cheers. The trump supporters are still going to support him. That's not gonna, you know, erode their support of him. The people who loath him are going to loath him more, all right? They gonna say he is a rich fat cat and everything that we don't like. The ones in the middle are interesting. The counterattack is -- listen, I took advantage of a legal situation. And then you have to ask yourself, and I have to ask myself that question, if I were Trump and I had casinos that are losing a billion dollars, would I take the write-off? And he answer is, "Yes, I would. I would." And I think 95 percent of business people would take the write-off. What are you going to say, no, I'm not gonna take it because my, my enterprises went south? Doesn't make any sense. So therefore, most Americans are intellectually going to understand what he did was what anybody would do. And remember, he wasn't a politician. He was a businessman then. But he has to sell it now and it was pretty shrewd what he did in Colorado by saying, "Hey, look, I know that this isn't right. And if I get elected, I'm going to fix it. I'm going to make it not this way. It might be able to get away with that. He's got to really sell it hard.

GUILFOYLE: OK. All right Bolling, so take us through kind of the tax issue. He said, and they keep emphasizing the talking point, his team and the surrogates saying what he did was legal that he took advantage of the tax code as it was written.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Totally legal. I'm not sure it was genius, but because it's the tax code. That's what any good accountant will tell you to do. What likely happened was -- the casinos were probably losing money for years going in to '95. He took the loss in '95, but in the prior years, he didn't take the loss, so he probably showed an income. He paid tax on that. So what do you do with a $900 billion -- a hundred -- $900 million loss? You roll it forward like anyone else will do. I will give you the best example I could possibly find. I did some homework. Warren Buffet, the hero of the left, including the Clintons, lost $873 million in 2014 in a company called Energy Futures Holding Corp. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that Warren Buffett is using the exact same tax code that Donald Trump is -- used in 1995 to take that loss, roll the loss forward against profits going forward or profits in the same year going forward, because that's what you do as a good businessman.

GUILFOYLE: All right Dana, let's talk about the messaging here. So you see a bunch of the surrogates going out. You saw Chris Christie, you saw Rudy Giuliani saying, "Look, this is a guy who wants to make America great again. He knows how to make a comeback. He lost everything and he came back from it."

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, I think, obviously they had the -- they are on their game, their conference call, ready to go. I don't know if they knew it was coming, because it was, obviously they were all saying the exact same thing. Message just a blend (ph), gonna love it. I have to say, though, as a former spokesperson, I think that if they asked me to say that he was a genius, I would have said, "Go jump in a lake, because I'm not saying that" because I think that he does have a good point if he believes it, that he wants to change the tax code so that it doesn't benefit people like him, but it's October 3rd and this is the first time that he's actually making this campaign.

O'REILLY: Can I interrupt Ms. Dana?

PERINO: Of course.

GUILFOYLE: If --yeah, if she said yes.

O'REILLY: And this isn't a pro-Trump statement, because as you know I'm neutral on this thing. I'm trying to cover the thing as fairly as I can. Isn't a genius when you are down to the nub and you are losing $916 million? Isn't it genius when you turn it around and then become one of the most wealthy individuals on the face of the earth?

PERINO: Well I think you could -- I'm not making anti-Trump statement by saying what I'm going to say in response to that which is, you can say that, fine, you took advantage of the laws. As Eric says, it might not be genius, it is legal, but as an American, you can say, is this right overall? On the left, it is almost treasonous to not pay your fair share.


O'REILLY: You talk about Trump. You're talking about Trump now. Would you ascribe him the word "genius" for turning around a company that was, on the verge.


O'REILLY: . of extinction?

PERINO: I don't know. I'm not a businessman. I don't have any money --

O'REILLY: That's just -- I just think that's .

PERINO: But I'm --

O'REILLY: . a provocative question.

PERINO: OK. But I'm also saying, if you are running for president of the United States, this is a story that he's known about for all of his adult life. They could have got this out in May.

O'REILLY: Yeah, they could --

PERINO: They waited until October 3rd.

GUILFOYLE: Get out of the way.


PERINO: It comes on the day -- in the days after he is perceived to have lost the first debate. And the first thing is, oh, he is a genius? And so, I just think that the talking point for them could have been a lot better if he had been actually talking about reforming the tax code before October 3rd.

GUILFOYLE: All right Gregans (ph)?

GUTFELD: Well, I mean, the bad news is Trump lost his shirt in the '90s. The good news, the shirt was made in China.

PERINO: That was good news.

GUTFELD: So they would have -- look, Soros --

GUILFOYLE: Look at O'Reilly's face.

GUTFELD: Yeah. It's always the same.


GUTFELD: He's like a Mount Rushmore without the charm. All right, George Soros .


GUTFELD: . lacks $1.5 billion in six months. So the fact is you do not pay taxes on a loss. That's how long the story should last. You do not pay taxes on a loss, whether it's moral or immoral. That's a fact. The thing I find most interesting is that, I like Trump's -- this is what I find to be genius. Trump wants to change the system because -- to stop people like Trump. He is like the guy -- he's like the guy, if you want to build a great safe, you hire a safecracker, right?


GUTFELD: That, exactly .

O'REILLY: Absolutely.

GUILFOYLE: It's got to be true.

GUTFELD: . that's not the argument that he's using. And someone should have written that line for him.

O'REILLY: No, here is the best line that you missed.


O'REILLY: He goes, "I was working for my company then, now I'm not. I'm working for you."

GUTFELD: Right. Yeah.

O'REILLY: All right? So look, I understand the visceral reaction that most people will have on this, and Trump is going to have to really sell it hard and Sunday night, going to have to sell it hard because they're coming at him.

GUILFOYLE: I think they move left.

O'REILLY: Ratchet will come at him, no Wolf.


O'REILLY: Ratchet will come out and Cooper will come at him. Hillary will come at him. He's got three come at him, all right? And they're going to say, "Look, you are a dunderhead." And he's going to be -- if he reacts, emotionally, he will lose. He's gonna have to Jack Webb it. You remember Jack Webb, right?


BOLLING: Yeah, you knew him? Did you?

WILLIAMS: I thought he was like one of the --


WILLIAMS: Yeah, trying to figure out how I got home.

O'REILLY: Just the facts.

GUILFOYLE: So what do, what do you think, Juan? Is this something that, you know, it's a big win for Hillary, that something that might stick?

WILLIAMS: Well, he's having a terrible week. I mean, just go back a week to the debate, it was a bad showing. Then you had the whole incident with the miss universe.

GUILFOYLE: Michelle.

WILLIAMS: Right? And he was terrible and tweeting in the middle of the night. And now this, it has been a tough week, and so as a result, you got republicans in Washington who are ringing over the weekend, who are just enough a tizzy over like "what is going on with Donald Trump? This guy's off message. Everything that Kelly (inaudible) seems like right now has unraveled. They are hoping she doesn't get blame that she doesn't get thrown under the bus. But the campaign itself feels like it's out of control and he's behaving erratically. This whole idea that he is a genius was so, so much spin, so ridiculous.


WILLIAMS: I mean if he was -- if he is such a genius as both of my colleagues have said, he would have put this out a long time ago and said, well, this is a fact. But he's hiding --

GUILFOYLE: Meaning pre-empt it?

WILLIAMS: And still hiding-- right.


BOLLING: But Juan --

WILLIAMS: But let me finish. So we've got a guy here who borrowed billions of dollars. Oh, what a brilliant businessman. That's the premise of his campaign, "I'm a brilliant businessman. Let me work for you." He borrowed $3 billion. He then goes and loses 900 -- almost another billion dollars. We're not even sure if was he's money, it could have been creditors' money. He takes advantage of it. He says the military is breaking out, but he is not supporting the military.

GUILFOYLE: Then he makes, but then he makes the fact.

WILLIAMS: He's not supporting the cops. He's not supporting the school kids. I think this is terrible.


BOLLING: Why do you think he's not supporting the cops --


WILLIAMS: But he's not -- you're not (inaudible). I'm paying taxes.

BOLLING: Do you think this man has not paid taxes?


BOLLING: He doesn't pay taxes or hasn't paid taxes?

WILLIAMS: I don't know about hasn't for all time.

BOLLING: I will guarantee you, he pays the minimum amount of taxes he legally can and possibly should pay, Juan.


BOLLING: But that is -- that --


BOLLING: For to you say --


WILLIAMS: You shifted it. You shifted Eric. A moment ago you said he did the right thing for his competitors, his employees.

BOLLING: Of course he did.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. You know what?

BOLLING: Of course he did.

WILLIAMS: He rebuilt. He's a genius. You know what he did? He relied on money he got from his daddy .

BOLLING: Juan --

WILLIAMS: . and little Richie Rich screwed up and lost daddy's money.

BOLLING: If you take away this -- the ability to write off a business loss, if you take that out of the tax code, you're gonna bury small business --

WILLIAMS: That's fine. I didn't (inaudible) that. I did think --

BOLLING: I agree. Out of this --

WILLIAMS: He can --


WILLIAMS: As you pointed out, he's legal --

BOLLING: You shut the (inaudible) or done.


WILLIAMS: What he did was legal. But I'm saying, he was like a --

BOLLING: Of course it is.

GUILFOYLE: What about taxes? You don't pay taxes on a law.

GUTFELD: I think --


GUTFELD: Well, here is the distinction between the candidates.


GUTFELD: Trump -- what Trump was trying to hide was embarrassing but not illegal. He doesn't want to look like a bad businessman, so he did -- he hid because it was embarrassing, not illegal. What Hillary shields is a mishandling of classified information, not necessarily embarrassing, but illegal.

PERINO: That's not --

WILLIAMS: It wasn't illegal.


WILLIAMS: No, it's not, FBI. Look, we know that that's not illegal. So let's forget that.

O'REILLY: What she did --

GUTFELD: She knew it was illegal.


GUTFELD: She knew she was breaking the law.

O'REILLY: The FBI said she didn't do it on purpose.


WILLIAMS: It wasn't illegal.


GUTFELD: There was no intent.


WILLIAMS: It was not illegal.

O'REILLY: That was their interpretation.


O'REILLY: But it is illegal to put out classified information.

WILLIAMS: My point is, he's not a good businessman --

O'REILLY: But that's your opinion.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my opinion.


WILLIAMS: If I lost that much money, if I lost -- if you say, hey, Juan, I want to invest my wealth with you. Bill O'Reilly's money (inaudible) .


WILLIAMS: . and I lost that, would you be livid.

O'REILLY: If you had, if you had made it back and you had the Juan jet.


O'REILLY: Then I would probably say --


O'REILLY: Look at the Juan jet.

GUILFOYLE: You imagine Juan Jet?

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.

O'REILLY: All right. May and he learned his lesson and now he is making money for everyone.

GUTFELD: I have a Juan jet, but it's a hot tub.


WILLIAMS: But the --


GUTFELD: Can I ask you a question to you Eric?


GUTFELD: Is it -- OK.

GUILFOYLE: That's one hot tub I would skip.

GUTFELD: Billionaires lose money.



GUTFELD: That's a fact, but is it, OK. Is it -- is it impossible, I mean -- with casino, isn't it hard to lose money?



BOLLING: Not at all.


O'REILLY: There are 18 other casinos.

BOLLING: Yes. And they are down like three now.

O'REILLY: Right.

BOLLING: So 15 --

O'REILLY: Moe Greene was skimming all the money off the top.

BOLLING: Can I just point out.

O'REILLY: Did you see the Godfather 2?



GUTFELD: Many times.


BOLLING: This, this, this business loss, being able to write that off, is the essence of American business, right there. It allows mom and pop to go on corner and open a (inaudible), because if they lose, they have to be able to write it off and try again, Juan.

O'REILLY: Right.

BOLLING: If you take that away from America, they just --

PERINO: There are also people --

BOLLING: We're toast.

PERINO: Those are also the people, though, they think --if they have a loss. That's why I think this is -- I think he had the wrong reaction to this. The bodega guy, they -- they have the lost. They're going to worry for the rest of their lives that if they don't pay their taxes, that the IRS will gonna come after them. They don't have the kind of lawyers that he can have any accountants that will be able to figure all (inaudible) so they can take advantage of all the laws. And just a little bit of empathy just wouldn't hurt from him, and so saying like, like "I'm so brilliant because I did it, no, I followed the law and I want to make the laws better so it can help people like me."

GUILFOYLE: Does he help --

O'REILLY: But that's what he then.

PERINO: No, it would be helpful if its plan actually did that, but it doesn't. It helps commercial real estate guys. If you really want it to help, it would be something that would actually take more money from rich people and put it into the, into the coffers. Maybe we don't think that's a good idea. But that would be a better message at this point.

GUILFOYLE: This is really good A-block.

O'REILLY: It was.

GUILFOYLE: But is it because he was here?


GUTFELD: I know, I think it was --

GUILFOYLE: All right.


BOLLING: Of course it was.

O'REILLY: What's was?

GUILFOYLE: All right. You just super size "The Five." All right. Stay right there, if you could, please, because when we come back, we're going to talk to Bill, again, about the newest installment in his killing series "Killing the Rising Sun." And also, we're going to get his reaction to a new audio tape released of Hillary Clinton saying some things and many young voters in America might not be happy about. Stay with us, next.


BOLLING: All right, we're back now with Bill O'Reilly, host of "The Factor," and author of "Killing the Rising Sun." But before we get to his spoke, Hilary Clinton's team and just can't help itself taking more deplorable shots at Trump's supporters.


ROBBY MOOK, HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think a lot of the people that stand by Donald Trump are deplorable. And the things that they say are deplorable.


BOLLING: Meanwhile, supporters of Bernie Sanders that Clinton is now trying to win over might find this deplorable. Listen to this newly leaked audio of the secretary at a fund-raiser in February.


CLINTON: They're children of the Great Recession. And they are living in their parents' basement. If you're felling that you're consigned to, you know, being a barista or, you know, some other job that doesn't pay a lot and doesn't have much of a ladder of opportunity attached to it, then the idea that maybe, just maybe you could be part of a political revolution is pretty appealing.


BOLLING: After hearing that, Trump tweeted, "Bernie should pull his endorsement of Crooked Hillary after she deceived him and then attacked him and his supporters. So now Bill, is this a big deal?

O'REILLY: No. And she's absolutely right.


BOLLING: Thank you.

O'REILLY: Yeah, she's right. I mean, if you are a college educated younger person and you can't get a good job, then you want to overthrow the system (inaudible), you know, and come to your house and take your furniture. And there so --

BOLLING: They are making hay out of the basement --


O'REILLY: I don't see any hay there, Bolling, but I will tell what you she said, it was absolutely 100 percent true.


GUTFELD: I'm tired of people going after people in the basement. I've live, I live in basements almost all my life. They are not bad. But I agree, she was -- it was a realistic assessment .

O'REILLY: Yeah, that's what it is.

GUTFELD: . of the current state .

O'REILLY: Right.

GUTFELD: . of Malaise among young people who are stuck on a rung and they can't get up. I thought that -- I didn't find it insulting. I thought it was thoughtful.

PERINO: And just record number -- there's a record number of millennials, they are actually living -- it started to go down recently, but a record number of millenials have gone back to live with their parents. So I think what Trump could have done there is to say the reason that they are in that position is .

GUTFELD: It was, yeah.

PERINO: . because of the Obama economy. I alone can fix it.

O'REILLY: Oh, that's good. That's good.


BOLLING: That K.G. --

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I think -- I mean, look --

BOLLING: Any hay there?

GUILFOYLE: He can't -- hay.


GUILFOYLE: You know he had to go after it, right? He is going to try and make something of it. We got the secret recording and therefore, I mean it's an aggressive call. I don't mind saying, hey, drop Crooked Hillary. Come with my team because we've got more in common.

O'REILLY: Oh, I want to know.

GUILFOYLE: I want to help you make something of your life. What?

O'REILLY: Is Miss Machado living in her parents' basement? I don't know.

PERINO: I wouldn't say so.




O'REILLY: It would be wrong to draw (inaudible) that.


O'REILLY: Would it be wrong to do that?


PERINO: I think it's just --

O'REILLY: That would be wrong.

PERINO: Because he didn't read over that story, if you might want to leave it alone.

WILLIAMS: Hold on. Hold on.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, gosh.

WILLIAMS: Nothing to see here.

BOLLING: But what if she is?


GUTFELD: We don't know where she is right now, so --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, OK. Well, let me guess.

GUTFELD: You don't know here she is.


WILLIAMS: I mean, the biggest testimonial here is, Bernie Sanders. He said she was absolutely right.


WILLIAMS: And said that, you know what? The problem here is young people have legitimately had their dreams thwarted by this economy and then, and they're struggling. And for her to act, just call it straight. I don't see -- but guess what? Here comes, here comes Donald trump desperate, nails on the chalkboard. Pleas --


WILLIAMS: Hillary did something wrong. Hillary didn't do anything wrong.

GUTFELD: But Juan, what if (inaudible) whether it's Romney had said this, McCain had said this or Trump had said this, we're actually being really diplomatic .


GUTFELD: . and nice and sensible.

BOLLING: We're being honest.

GUTFELD: Yes. But the reverse of us, a show like this on MSNBC and if it were McCain .

PERINO: Romney.

GUTFELD: . or Trump or Romney.

GUILFOYLE: It's terrible.

GUTFELD: They would destroy them.


GUTFELD: But we actually happen to --

O'REILLY: But we don't want to get down to that level. But, you know, the point --

GUILFOYLE: We had on that. Shall we?


O'REILLY: What we're all missing is that all millennials should who having trouble should live in Bernie Sanders' basement.

BOLLING: Or on his new home.

GUTFELD: He has three basements.

O'REILLY: He has three basements.


O'REILLY: Yeah, yeah. He has three basements (inaudible).

BOLLING: All right. Can we turn the topic a little bit to your new book?


BOLLING: "Killing the Rising Sun." Bill O'Reilly, I've heard --


BOLLING: Bernie told me, 400 -- how many, how many sold so far?

O'REILLY: Was that Bernie in hay?




O'REILLY: We have done extraordinarily well the first three weeks out. And we really appreciate you guys.

BOLLING: And you are number one on all --

O'REILLY: All the lists.

BOLLING: Every list.

O'REILLY: You know .


O'REILLY: . but now Bruce Springsteen's book. In his book is something really clever. If you buy Springsteen's book, and I'm giving him a plug now, you get his album too.

GUTFELD: Yeah, but you know what? The book actually costs more without the album.

O'REILLY: But here is what I'm going to do. I'm going to cut another album and I'm going to put it in "killing the Rising Sun."


O'REILLY: All right, to compete.


BOLLING: We're making around but I, I thought, I found it very interesting that you pull all the .

GUILFOYLE: O'Reilly and the five men.

BOLLING: . the five living presidents .


BOLLING: . and asked them, would they have made the same decision regarding Hiroshima. That was May. And you heard --


O'REILLY: When we write the killing book, we try to do stuff that's not been done before, all right? And then so the information that you read in the book, you haven't seen most of it anywhere. So I wrote letters -- personal letters to the five living presidents. Would you have supported Truman? What would you have done? All right. Three of them reported back. Ms. Dana's former boss, Bush the younger, Bush the elder, who is still very, you know, on it on the thinking process, and Jimmy Carter. And they all agreed that they would have dropped the atom bomb. Now, Obama did not - - President Obama did not, wouldn't do it. And I believe --

PERINO: (inaudible) wouldn't drop.


PERINO: Wouldn't respond.

O'REILLY: He didn't respond. And I believe speculation only, could be wrong that he would not have .

PERINO: have done it.

O'REILLY: . drop the bomb, would not have done it. Bill Clinton didn't respond because I don't think he wanted to get drawn into controversy with his wife running for president.

GUILFOYLE: Quite smart.

O'REILLY: But we posted the three letters in the book, as well as in a letter in my collection of Harry Truman saying why he fired McArthur, ultimately, which is a fascinating letter, too. So "Killing the Rising Sun" has doing great and I think people would enjoy it.

PERINO: Can I ask you something about?

O'REILLY: Go ahead.

PERINO: I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what you think was the transformative issue that allowed -- so Bush 43, the younger, and Koizumi, who is the prime minister of Japan on 9/11. They had -- that was the first phone call that 43 got, was from Koizumi. So how is it that the fathers of those two men who fought against each other in World War II ends up in a pretty short period of time historically, end up actually being allies in the war on terror?

O'REILLY: Because the United States treated Japan after the war with kindness. We didn't brutalize them. We could have, all right? We even allowed (inaudible) to keep the emperor status, although he was no longer referred to as a God, all right? My father was in the occupation. And I know firsthand that the U.S. troops, despite taking horrendous casualties, and we, and we show you that in "The Rising Sun." I mean Japanese didn't take many prisoners. And the ones they did, they brutalized, it was slavering, but they would behead people in front of the other Americans and British. So the vengeance that the United States could have wreaked on Japan never happened.

PERINO: Right.

O'REILLY: We came in. We occupied the country. We rebuilt the country, Colin Kaepernick. We rebuilt it with our money so that Japan now is a very affluent nation, a free nation and it benefited from (inaudible) yes.


O'REILLY: Even though we had the perfect right to go in there and brutalize them, but we did not.

GUILFOYLE: We exercised restraint and generosity.

O'REILLY: And that's why America is a noble nation. That is why I write these books.


BOLLING: Question?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, sure. So I'm fascinated by Robert Oppenheimer who developed the bomb.

O'REILLY: Crazy guy.

WILLIAMS: Tell me.

O'REILLY: Oh. I went to Los Alamos and we were researching the book, and it's a little town outside of Santa Fe, and Oppenheimer and all his crazy physicists were there, OK? Oppenheimer, five packs of cigarettes a day, only smoking, never showered. You can imagine, you can imagine this.


O'REILLY: So he was an idol. They idolized him.


O'REILLY: And he was obsessed with developing the A-bomb, because Hitler was trying to do the same thing. And he wanted to get it before the Germans. And he wanted to drop it on Berlin. Oppenheimer was going -- he was furious that they didn't get it in time to drop it on the furor in Berlin.


O'REILLY: OK? So this guy, Oppenheimer, crazy guy, but brilliant. All right? And he takes Einstein's theory and he makes a bomb. But this -- (inaudible) in "Killing the Rising Sun." They test the bomb in New Mexico, right, in the desert. Don't tell anybody. There's no media, no cable, none of that. And then radio stations are going, "I think there was an earthquake."


O'REILLY: You know, because nobody knew. But everything was rattling .


O'REILLY: . because this was an above-ground nuclear test, all right? So all of that we have in the book in very micro-detail, and Oppenheimer was a lady's man. All right? I mean all --


O'REILLY: All the --




O'REILLY: Yeah. I don't, I mean --

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, gosh.


WILLIAMS: (inaudible) was he smoking while he was building the bomb?


O'REILLY: The only guy who smoked more was --


O'REILLY: The only guy who smoked more that I thought was Dwight Eisenhower. Dwight Eisenhower was lie sic packs a day.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, well --

O'REILLY: I mean, but these are little details we have .


O'REILLY: . and makes the book --



BOLLING: And you can read all of that and more in the book.

GUILFOYLE: That's the reason.

BOLLING: Thank you, Bill. It's great having you back.

O'REILLY: Thank you.

BOLLING: Make sure you pick up a copy of "Killing the Rising Sun" and watch Bill tonight on "The Factor" at 8:00 p.m. eastern. Up next here, you know who sounded a lot like Trump back in the 1990s? Bill Clinton. Greg has that interesting flashback tape, just ahead.


GUTFELD: It's your loss, not my loss.

If there's anything we learned this year, it's that wanting a border makes you a racist. I mean, who goes off on illegal aliens, promises banning welfare for the same and then mentions deportation? What kind of monster is Trump?


THEN-PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: All Americans, not only in the states most heavily affected but in every place in this country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public service they use impose burdens on our taxpayers.

That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more, by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by barring welfare benefits to illegal aliens.

In the budget I will present to you, we will try to do more to speed the deportation of illegal aliens who are arrested for crimes, to better identify illegal aliens in the work face [SIC], as recommended by the commission headed by former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.

We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws. It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years. And we must do more to stop it.


GUTFELD: I'm sorry. That wasn't Trump, not at all.

Fact is, that footage reveals that since the -- since then, the goalposts on immigration have moved so far to the left, they're outside the stadium.

Worse, since Bill Clinton said all that, times have changed. 9/11, anyone? Today is not yesterday. Liberals love progress. But if you're really a fan of progress, a fan of evolution, a fan of science, then you have to see the world for what it's become now and apply that reality to action. Just like lizards, toads and finches, terrorism has evolved.

2016 is not 1916 or even 1996. As an ideological virus infects millions who wish to take all of us kicking and screaming to the afterlife, it means that the words of an old Democrat are truer now than ever. They're just applied to the wrong object. It's not about our neighbors to the south. It concerns a spreading belief that rejects persuasion and preaches apocalyptic violence.

In this new era, where one person can kill hundreds of thousands of people with technology increasingly available to all of us, we see that this is not about Mexico at all. It's about martyrdom. To survive, we must be sober about our security.

So when it comes to a porous border and its consequences, Bill Clinton was damn close, but no cigar.


GUTFELD: You know what? Producer, did he say "work face"?


CLINTON: In the budget I will present to you, we will try to do more to speed the deportation of illegal aliens who are arrested for crimes, to better identify illegal aliens in the work face [SIC]...


GUILFOYLE: Oh, gosh.

GUTFELD: You know what? Illegal aliens in the work face, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: I don't know. I'm recovering from the last comment. I mean, this is clever. But why isn't this being used? And utilized in the right way to say look at the comparison.

I mean, again, he's not running against Bill but kind of, because it's a two-for, you know, with Hillary and Bill, two for the price of one. They'll make you pay three times higher the price. Right? That's the Clinton way.

So these are good opportunities to be able to show a juxtaposition. And so OK, this is who built that. Bill Clinton, look at his policies. Do you want more of the same of Bill Clinton, more of the same of Barack Obama, more of the same of Hillary Clinton, who's had 30 years to be able to come forward with good ideas to move the country and the economy forward and to have good ideas about immigration?

GUTFELD: You know, Dana, when you listen to him, he sounds like a -- well, he's to the right of Republicans.

PERINO: Well, at the time, it was a conservative Democrat. Right? So one of the things that Hillary Clinton said over the weekend was -- there was a recording or something where she said that there's really no center left and that maybe she will actually have to figure out how to occupy the center. But that for her is a danger, because politically, the left -- the worry they have about her is that she's not really as liberal as she says she is. They think she's more like Bill Clinton. Whereas, she would say, "No, I'm not like that." She's trying to distance herself from him and from Obama and trying to be her own person, in a little bit of a trap.

GUTFELD: Eric, you know, when I listen to Bill Clinton, I think I counted 17 microaggressions.

BOLLING: That was a while ago. Things have changed. What has also changed, the stance on the Clintons -- I'll lump them together, if I may -- on immigration. You pointed that out. The criminal justice reform. They've really evolved on that one, as well.

GUILFOYLE: Super predators.

BOLLING: And on Wall Street. Whereas, they used to be super strong on crime and soft on Wall Street. Apparently, they flipped both of those. They're soft on immigration now, soft on crime reform, and strong on Wall Street, I guess.

GUTFELD: So Juan, your party has changed for the better or for the worse. You have ten seconds.

WILLIAMS: I think it's better. And I think times have changes. Obviously, first of all...

GUTFELD: What about...

WILLIAMS: Let me just tell you, he is not calling immigrants rapists and murderers. He's not involved in that kind of language. It was just the sources...

GUTFELD: At least not in public.

WILLIAMS: We don't know what he is doing in private.

GUILFOYLE: He said, what do they talk about at the breakfast table?

Williams: Well, I just -- you know what to me is interesting is the historic view, is you go back and you look at Ronald Reagan passing immigration reform in the '80s. Then you get up to the point you have a growing American economy.

You have an influx of immigrants coming across the southern border. That's the focus. You also have people overstaying visas. But let's just focus on the southern border. People coming for work, typically hard-collar blue-working [SIC] -- and he says, in some cases, is putting people out of work. We're in a point today where that's not the case.

I don't know exactly -- I mean, the farmers in America are saying we need more people. We need people to do these jobs. The factory people who run factories. Also, we do not have an influx of immigrants at the moment across the southern border. We have an out-migration, because the economy isn't what it used to be.

GUTFELD: I think -- yes, but my point is that now the porous border has a problem for a different reason, and it's terror. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. He's saying the right things, but now it's a new thing.

We've got to move on, though, Juan. Very eloquent. I actually found that tape on "Ace of Spades," even though it's been around for a while, the blog, "Ace of Spades." That's where I saw that.

GUILFOYLE: Good job, Greg.

GUTFELD: Ahead, "Saturday Night Live" has returned. We'll tell you what we thought of the premiere, if we actually watched it.





ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR (AS DONALD TRUMP): I won the debate. I stayed calm, just like I promised. And it is over. Good night, Hofstra.

CHE: Donald, Donald, there's still 88 minutes left. It's a 90-minute debate.

BALDWIN: My microphone is broken.


PERINO: "Saturday Night Live" returned just in time this weekend to provide comic relief on the first presidential debate. Alec Baldwin's debut as Trump helped the show achieve its highest premiere ratings since 2008, when Tina Fey debuted her legendary Palin impersonation.

Here's a little more from "SNL's" season opener.


MCKINNON: This man is clearly unfit to be commander in chief.


MCKINNON: He is a bully.

BALDWIN: Shut up.

MCKINNON: He started the birther movement.

BALDWIN: You did.

MCKINNON: He hasn't released his tax returns, which means he's either not that rich...


MCKINNON: ... not that charitable...


MCKINNON: ... or he has never paid taxed in his life.

BALDWIN: Warmer.

CHE: This has been an illuminating debate. But now it's time for our...

MCKINNON: Alicia Machado.

CHE: I'm sorry. Who is Alicia Machado?

MCKINNON: Thank you for bringing that up, Lester.

BALDWIN: Where did you find this?

MCKINNON: And Donald Trump called her "Miss Piggy."

BALDWIN: How do you know this?

MCKINNON: And "Miss Housekeeping."

BALDWIN: That's pretty funny.


PERINO: K.G., you stayed up. Did you love it?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. I was excited to watch it, because I heard, OK, it's going to be -- and I thought Alec Baldwin was going to do a very good job. He's funny; he's talented. He knows that show inside out and knows Trump. So I thought he did a great job.

I thought Kate McKinnon was good, as well. And they really kind of, like, pushed a few things. And I liked the "Family Feud" one.

PERINO: That was funny.

GUILFOYLE: I know. And why aren't we on...

PERINO: I know. I thought of the same thing. Big numbers, Eric. You watching those?

BOLLING: Yes. Like, awesome cold open. I loved that. I think Alec Baldwin was the best Trump of any of them so far. I liked Daryl Hammond last season, but I think Alec Baldwin just nailed it, all the idiosyncrasies of Trump, the facial movements and whatnot. Fantastic.

I was happy to see, they just kept it above -- I don't think they dug deep into the politics of it. They went into the visceral level, made fun of both of them, appearances.

PERINO: Pretty even.

BOLLING: Some of the commentary, whatnot. I didn't find it overly political. And I enjoyed it.

GUILFOYLE: Great comedic timing.

PERINO: You didn't love it?

GUTFELD: Well, OK. Michael Che as Lester Holt was great. We can't forget that.

But in my opinion, a balance of time isn't the same as a balance in treatment. When you watch this, Donald Trump played a character, and she played a conduit for the audience watching the character. So she just would sit there and laugh at what he was doing. She was actually acting as, like, the chorus in a Shakespearean play.

GUILFOYLE: Shakespearean play.

GUTFELD: It's "Look at this character. Isn't he ridiculous? I'm going to win." So even though there was a balance in time, there wasn't a balance in treatment.

And they have to be careful, because this is how the new right starts. The more you ridicule only one direction, you create the pendulum swing. And that's what you are seeing is the response to 30 or 40 years of ridicule of the right.

It wasn't that bad.

BOLLING: But in parody, you highlight the obvious. You exaggerate the obvious.

GUTFELD: Yes. And they did it for Trump. But I don't think they did it for her.

GUILFOYLE: Because she's not funny or interesting.

WILLIAMS: I just thought it was lacking in political satire. I thought the makeup was good, but I -- I thought it was all sort of -- you know, sort of bawdy...

PERINO: Characteristic.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I didn't think it was that great. I mean, I liked "Family Feud," by the way. I thought that was pretty funny. They guy -- I forget the actor's name who came out as Putin and then took his shirt off and all that.


GUILFOYLE: That was awesome.

WILLIAMS: But I mean, you think about the reality of the campaign. To me, it's just so right for satire. I mean, today -- was it today or whatever when Trump is saying, "I don't know if Hillary Clinton is faithful to her husband"?

PERINO: That was Saturday night.

WILLIAMS: Saturday night? This is real. I mean, you don't have to make this up. He's mocking her stumble. He's pretending like he's stumbling like Hillary Clinton.

GUILFOYLE: What about the "Family Feud," where Bill Clinton was trying to pick up on Ivanka?

WILLIAMS: Very good.

PERINO: All right. Donald Trump just held a rally out in Colorado and addressed a new storm over his taxes. We're going to play you more sound from that, so please stay tuned.



DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: When people make the mistake of underestimating me, that's when they are really in for their biggest surprise.

I knew that I would make a comeback without question. I never had a doubt in my mind. And again, I don't know -- I don't even think of it as a comeback. It was just like, you know, we had tough periods, good periods, tough periods. We just knew that things were going to be just fine. But that is why I'm here today.


WILLIAMS: That was Donald Trump a short while ago, addressing the new controversy over his taxes. A New York Times report revealed this weekend he may not have paid federal income taxes for nearly two decades. Trump is now trying to use the story to tout business acumen. Is that credible?

GUILFOYLE: Well, look, he's got to spin the story. Why not? Say, look, I'm a guy who made a billion dollars, lost money and found a way to make it back again. It goes hand in hand with his make America great again theme. I'm a guy who knows how to get things done. I know tax laws and business and how it works.

So now I'm not working for myself. I'm working for you, the American people.

I mean, it's the right messaging. But then, take it a step further, like what Dana said, how he could...

WILLIAMS: Eric, how does this play with working man in America? That he sees Trump as, maybe, the great disrupter? Is this, you know, a guy who didn't pay taxes?

BOLLING: Listen, I think I'd go on the counter offensive and say, "The New York Times, I'm going to sue you and sue whoever leaked that information." See, because that's illegal.

GUILFOYLE: Well, he suggested that.

BOLLING: As far as I understand, you're not allowed to take someone's private tax returns and then share it. And I think I saw Judge Napolitano. The judge said if you knowingly do this as New York Times did and publish it, you could be on the hook, too. I'd go right after them.

GUTFELD: But wait, you're OK with Assange and all those other guys leaking private stuff. I don't get it.

BOLLING: But it's the point about printing it.

GUTFELD: What, you don't think those people print Assange's stuff or anything from what's his face, Snowden, the big hero?

BOLLING: I don't know. I don't know.

GUTFELD: I don't know either. I think it's hypocritical. I'm against all leaking, to pee on the record, as you know.


GUTFELD: I wear an adult diaper.

GUILFOYLE: Did you say "to pee on the record"?

GUTFELD: "To Pee on the Record." It's my new show.

WILLIAMS: Where does this story go?

PERINO: Well, I think that tomorrow night in the vice-presidential debate, Mike Pence will have to answer for it. And Tim Kaine will be on the offensive for it. And neither of them are actually personally responsible for those taxes.

I do think -- Megan McCartle (ph) of Bloomberg has just written a piece about how this is good tax policy at work. There is that school of thought.

There's also the thought that you need risk takers in America. OK? You need people who are going to be willing to go out there and try to start a business. That's what he did. He took advantage or he -- used the laws appropriately, legally.

I do think, however, that because he, for example, tweeted a couple years ago that only half of America pays income taxes and that's not right, that's not fair, it's like well, OK, but if you're one of them -- he gets himself caught up a little bit in his prsevious positions.

GUTFELD: I've also got to say this. The language of the story is odd. They keep framing it as he could have avoided taxes for nearly two decades. They don't have anything. That's what I mean. That's what I mean.

BOLLING: A tax expert to guesstimate if...

GUTFELD: That's my point.

WILLIAMS: My problem is, I think, Dana, he's going to have to put out something more now. I think there's going to be a lot of pressure.

GUTFELD: Unless they already have something.

PERINO: Should have done it in May. Get it over with.

WILLIAMS: "One More Thing" coming next.


GUILFOYLE: It's really hard. Time for "One More Thing" -- Juan.

WILLIAMS: Baseball season, the regular season, ended this weekend. And we had some touching farewell moments. Former President Jimmy Carter's wife, Roslyn, an appearance at the Atlanta Braves kiss cam yesterday during the last game at Turner Field.


WILLIAMS: Next up, legendary sign-off from -- guess what? -- 67 years in the booth, 9 thousand games, hall of fame announcer Vin Scully saying good bye. Here he is.


VIN SCULLY, RETIRING ANNOUNCER: You and I have been friends for a long time. But I know in my heart I have always needed you more than you've ever need me. And I'll miss our time together more than I can say.


GUILFOYLE: Aww. That was very nice.


PERINO: OK. So two weeks ago on "Facebook Friday," we were asked what inanimate object did you have as a child that you would like to have now? My illustrated children's Bible.

So Tony De Luca, who is a New York City train dispatcher, he watched that show, and he sent me his family's Bible. This was his children's Bible as a kid. He used it to teach his children. And he sent it because he said he wants me to have it as a gift from his family to me.

I thought that was so kind. And thank you so much, Tony.

GUILFOYLE: He is my new favorite person.

PERINO: Isn't that neat?

GUTFELD: To the future.

All right. This is a bit freaky. Toyota -- Toyota has a talking robot to keep you company. Check it out.

While you're driving, this little guy will be next to you and will help make your life richer as you're driving. In the reality, he's just going to get to know you. And then at the end, he's going to suck the life out of you as they take over the universe. This is the first step in robot dominance, adorable robots.

GUILFOYLE: Can you go in the carpool lane with that? OK.



BOLLING: I was waiting for video. Should we do this? Very quickly. The last 30 years or so, the person who won the first debate, this is according to Gallup numbers, Gallup polling: Romney, Obama, Kerry, Gore, Bill Clinton, Perot, Dukakis, and Mondale. Seventy-five percent of the time if you win the first debate, you are not elected president.


We did that on the podcast.

GUILFOYLE: All right. And in other heartbreaking news. Kardashians. So did anybody hear about this, that Kim Kardashian was robbed at gunpoint by men dressed as police officers? We don't know where her bodyguard was. Some people say with Khloe out on the town.

But it looked like it was an inside job and a hit in her hotel room in Paris. They locked her in the bathroom. Kanye was doing a concert, and he stopped. She begged them to let her live and said she had babies at home, and they did.

So anyway, a lot of conspiracy theories about it. But you won't hear that here.

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