This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 14, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
JESSE WATTERS, HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Jesse Watters along with Emily Compagno, Juan Williams, Dana Perino, and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5:00 in New York City and this is "The Five."
We now know why the jail guards never checked on Jeffrey Epstein before he apparently committed suicide. It was because they were sleeping on the job. The two guards reportedly fell asleep for three hours when he is believed to have died. They then falsified the logs to cover it up.
This comes as federal investigators, including a suicide reconstruction team are on the scene today at the Manhattan jail where the convicted sex offender was found dead. And the mystery is growing on the whereabouts of the British socialite who allegedly helped Epstein recruit young girls.
Reports claim Ghislaine Maxwell is hiding at a secluded mansion in New England but the homeowner tells Fox News she's not there. Greg, does it surprise you that prison guards fell asleep for three hours and never checked on this guy?
GREG GUTFELD, HOST: I am surprised you didn't pronounce the S in Ghislaine's name. That's what I'm surprised.
WATTERS: Did I get that wrong?
GUTFELD: I think you got it right, and that's what surprises me. Because generally you would've mutilated that name and we all would have been laughing about it for weeks.
WATTERS: Good to be back.
GUTFELD: What else is a prison guard supposed to do but guard a prisoner? That's your one job. What were you guys doing? Were you having a secret board meeting to talk about the lunch menu or the logo on the new uniforms? I don't understand how this happens. They had one job.
If this were a movie, we would be rolling our eyes. You have a sleeping guard, two sleeping guards and a high-profile case. The cameras aren't working. The roommate is suddenly removed, but they coordinated decoy ambulances.
This is less realistic as a movie than "Lord of the Rings," and that had hobbits. And hobbits aren't real. But I guess the point is and I said this yesterday and I'll say it again, incompetence looks like corruption. You can't tell.
And the fact is, you know, the post office lost $8 billion or $7 billion this year. Bureaucracy is pretty bad. So, this is just another example of a large business that's run terribly.
WATTERS: Juan, do you suspect that foul play is involved or is it just mere competence on behalf of bureaucrats?
JUAN WILLIAMS, HOST: Well, you know, they say that you should look for the most obvious answer and the most obvious answer is that these guys fell asleep. Apparently, they were working extensive overtime. Apparently, one of the men has been working for eight straight days or something crazy like that.
And so I think that, you know what, they're not paying attention. It was a holiday. It was like a weekend for them, a summer weekend. And I think they didn't do their job, to underline that point, if their job was just to watch the prisoner.
They just thought, well, it's late at night. I'll do what I want to do. What strikes me is we have a piece in "The New York Times" today of a woman who said that she was 14 or 15 when she was raped by Epstein with the help of, how do you say it?
DANA PERINO, HOST: Ghislaine.
WILLIAMS: Ghislaine Maxwell. And so she is now suing Maxwell, the person that we can't -- that Fox nobody can find. But what strikes me is that the morality of these people. Like yesterday, there was a piece in which I think it was -- I'm trying to -- oh, James Stewart, the columnist.
He said what Epstein said to him was, you know, today we think gay people are OK. Remember where there was a time when that was considered out-of- bounds. Oh, and I think that's the way they're going to view adult men and teenage girls in the future.
And I think, boy, these people have such a perverse sense of morality and I think it comes from the same kind of entitlement and privilege that has protected Epstein and other rich men who act in a predatory manner with regards to sex.
WATTERS: And some of these rich and powerful men allegedly, if they were involved in anything untoward, Emily, could face some exposure even after his death, isn't it right?
EMILY COMPAGNO, COMMENTATOR: Yes. We have heard Attorney General Barr come out and say that, you know, the hunt won't stop. The investigation won't stop. In James Stewart's article, as well as Charlie Gasparino's from Fox Business Network and others that we know that there is apparently a trove of additional corroborating evidence and photographs and the like.
So certainly, none of those co-conspirators or actors are safe if there is direct evidence for that. I want to point out a couple things for the viewers about what we opened with, which was the jail situation. The standard -- you and I talked about a little bit about this the other day. The standard for the estate to sue a guard for basically you should have been watching this inmate and he committed suicide, you failed all of your duties.
That is deliberate indifference. That's much higher than negligence and it's a really hard bar to cross. And then in terms of falsifying documents, how it's been, oh, it's a federal crime.
I mean, I had an employee who falsified a document, which is yes, technically a felony. I got to counsel him because I was subscribed or circumscribed by the precedent of his union which these guys are a member of too.
And there is a 14 percent reduction of that union that's why it is so understaffed. So like everything, we can't oversimplify and there is a lot of problems in that toxic system, but certainly in terms of what repercussions we could see relating to the actual death itself, it likely won't be that big until the results of the investigations come out systemically.
WATTERS: What was this painting that everyone's talking about, Dana? I think there was a report --
PERINO: I missed the painting.
WATTERS: -- about a painting --
GUTFELD: Do we have it?
WATTERS: Do we have the painting?
GUTFELD: I don't think we --
WATTERS: OK, we don't have rights to it so let's not even talk about it then.
PERINO: Will you tell me in the commercial break?
WATTERS: I will tell you in the commercial break.
GUTFELD: It is Bill Clinton and a blue dress.
WATTERS: Right. It was not a photograph. It was a painting what they found in Epstein's estate, but we'll bring it back to you if we do get those rights. They also --
GUTFELD: I like that that was the question you were going to ask Dana.
PERINO: I know.
WATTERS: Only because there was a dog involved in the painting that you was upset about. I was trying to make it more relatable.
WILLIAMS: Oh my gosh.
WATTERS: The raid on the island.
WATTERS: Apparently there was a safe. There was video surveillance on the island. I mean, the island seems to be ground zero for a lot of this investigation.
PERINO: Also an open secret, right.
PERINO: We're all learning about it now but it seems to me plenty of people went to the island. A lot of people worked there. A lot of pilots sent their planes back and forth there. And Ghislaine Maxwell also said she got a helicopter license so that she could -- this is what she told James Stewart, right, or she told "Vanity Fair." It was in the "Vanity Fair" article.
She would Fedex for rollerblades to the island so that they would be there for her so she didn't have to carry them. But then she had got a helicopter pilot's license so that she could transfer anybody she wanted to on the island and the pilots didn't know anything about it. So, that's suspicious.
PERINO: Can I say one thing about the jail?
PERINO: And I wanted to get Greg's take on this. Robots don't fall asleep.
GUTFELD: That is true.
PERINO: And I think some innovation could -- you could see innovation in the future in the next probably 20 or 25 years where you have a different type of guard.
GUTFELD: It somehow --
COMPAGNO: It exists. It exists on some suicide watches right now in some penitentiaries where the second that the inmate gets off the bed, it alerts.
WILLIAMS: They have sensors.
COMPAGNO: Yes. Yes.
WILLIAMS: But that's different than a robot because I mean, even as a prisoner, I mean, they want to sleep. They want to have confidence that there is no --
PERINO: I'll just say, I think also technology -- to me technology seems like something that, you know, maybe it rouses the guard.
GUTFELD: But they didn't even have -- the cameras weren't even trained in the right spot so, it's like they have the easiest technology that we see. Everywhere we go, we are on camera. This is the most amazing. We're the most surveilled culture in history and the most important criminal in the country didn't have a camera on them.
And when you said it's an open secret, I finally realize, you know what an open secret is? It is something powerful people get away with that nobody else does.
PERINO: That's right. Yes.
GUTFELD: Because no average person can have an open secret, but Harvey Weinstein can.
GUTFELD: And so could, you know --
PERINO: R. Kelly.
GUTFELD: Epstein. Yes.
WATTERS: So if you now, I guess the investigation will move forward, so could you then interview the pilots who flew the planes to the island and, you know --
WATTERS: -- and if they lie, they are in big trouble. You could say did you fly this person? Who did you see on this flight? And maybe that's how it could unravel.
WILLIAMS: Yes, but to me, so Ghislaine Maxwell remains the primary person I want to talk to and see because I believe she was most involved in this. But then I read in the papers today that even to convict her is going to be very difficult.
Because without Epstein, you have to prove that she knew that there was abuse taking place. And you can imagine, Jesse, she's going to say, well, I was helping him introduce him to some young woman but I didn't know he was doing anything wrong.
WATTERS: And if there's no paper trail, you're right, that would be very hard to prove.
COMPAGNO: There are also accusations she participated in the abuse too. If there is any type of corroborating evidence to that too, she can be on the hook for that. This is a situation most difficult for the victims and that with Epstein gone, like everyone wants someone on the hook.
So, I think hopefully, there can be some patience ascribed to this and hopefully the estate will be sequestered in some way so that all of the victims can get a piece and it might look like a civil forfeiture with the preponderance of evidence criminal standard which is likely.
GUTFELD: The thing is though, the reason why he got away with being a predator is because he got away with this ponzi schemes. If they have been able to get him at the ponzi scheme, which enabled all of this predatory behavior, the predatory behavior might not have happened. So, how was he able to get away with the ponzi schemes for so long?
WILLIAMS: Why did Les Wexner not say anything until two weeks ago about losing, was it tens of millions of dollars?
GUTFELD: Yes. Yes.
WILLIAMS: I mean, that's a powerful man. You would think that he had the wherewithal to call them on the carpet but he didn't.
COMPAGNO: But Epstein said himself that everyone treated him like the minister. Remember, he said I almost got my ministers license so I could really actually have a form of protection on these conversations.
COMPAGNO: Yes, but everyone confided in him because they thought he was worse than they were.
COMPAGNO: So, everyone else was depraved in some degree too.
WATTERS: Well, it looks like his estates worth about half a billion dollars and hopefully they can divide it up amongst the victims if they can prove that he all did this.
All right. It's the battle for the American worker. President trump blasts his Democratic rivals in a very key battleground state. Plus, new poll numbers could mean trouble for Joe Biden. The 2020m roundup, up next.
PERINO: It's a fight for working Americans, a vote that President Trump secured in 2016 and now he's looking to regain their support. Trump turning up the heat on his Democratic contenders in the all-important battleground state of Pennsylvania yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: We will have to hit Pocahontas very hard again if she does win, but she is staging a little bit of a comeback. What a group, Pocahontas and Sleepy Joe. I don't think they give a damn about western Pennsylvania.
You are the ones who work hard, pay your taxes, build your neighborhood. Now, you finally have a president of the United States who is loyal to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: The DNC responding to President Trump's attacks this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It's that clear Democrats stand on the side of workers. I think you see Democrats talking about wanting to raise wages. You talk about skills training. Time and time again, we're talking about how were going to fuel the economy.
Poll after poll shows that voters are really sick of him tweeting and the attacks. And I think that if he continues that, then Democrats will be in a strong position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: This comes as Joe Biden's front runner status may be starting to slip. A new national poll shows Elizabeth Warren in a virtual tie for the - with the former vice president. And in New Hampshire, a new poll actually has Bernie Sanders beating Biden.
So, Iowa and New Hampshire, they're not built-in advantages for Joe Biden, right? South Carolina, he's got like that wall of support there like --
GUTFELD: You are looking at me as though you are asking me a question.
PERINO: I was thinking should I ask Greg this question and then I was thinking he's going to say, why are you asking me this question.
GUTFELD: Because I have a theory that's when -- I was bragging --
PERINO: Oh, I got a theory. Go ahead.
GUTFELD: OK. So yesterday we talked about Trump's success with small donors. He's got like 65 percent. It reflects grassroots passion and the average voter's passion for him. Who exceeds him? Bernie. His small donors are somewhere like between 60 percent and 70 percent, which says he is the guy to galvanize the Trump opposition.
In my opinion, no one has his support or his authenticity. But, you know who else has 60 percent plus donors? Liz Warren. So Liz and Bernie are essentially the same candidate which means when one drops out it absorbs the other.
PERINO: Well, one is going to have -- they are going to have to start attacking each other at some point.
GUTFELD: Well, but the thing is, I think what's going to happen is one is going to have to go away and they join together because Bernie's people aren't going to go to Joe and Liz's people aren't going to go to Joe. So you're going to end up with a plurality of maybe 40 percent for Joe or for Liz if they get the nomination.
PERINO: So who wins, Juan, between Biden and --
GUTFELD: That's a great theory. Forget it.
PERINO: Yes, it is a great theory, but I mean --
GUTFELD: You know what, I don't like the show anymore.
PERINO: It's also like the wonderful common sense politics on that theory.
GUTFELD: You know what, I've been -- from sitting next to you for so long, Dana, I have absorbed it.
PERINO: Yes ((inaudible)). I like your theory. But isn't true, Juan, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, at some point, someone's going to have to join the fight.
WILLIAMS: Well, the fight has been going on and what you see is --
PERINO: But not really between the two of them. They're quite nice to each other.
WILLIAMS: No, but the fight is going on. It doesn't benefit either of them to attack the other.
WILLIAMS: Because you don't want to alienate people that you want to come to your side. But the fact is that Elizabeth Warren is clearly the person with momentum, and this has been clear for a long time. And Bernie Sanders who is now carping about even the liberal press is the one who is following.
And part of this is, as I said before, it feels like I've seen this movie before when it comes to Bernie. I've seen a lot of the kind of rhetoric. I've seen a lot of the attacks. And so, you know, it doesn't have any freshness.
Elizabeth Warren with all of her ideas, I've got a solution, I've got a plan, and her energy, it has just been something. And right now, with all the bad news we've seen on the stock market today, you know, I think the Dow was down --
PERINO: It's just one day.
WILLIAMS: -- 700 -- well, over the last three weeks the Dow has lost 7 percent, Dana.
WILLIAMS: And I think when you factor in that there's going to be a higher awareness of the nation's economy and its impact, suddenly Elizabeth Warren and all that she said about consumer protections, raining in Wall Street, don't let the big guys say they are too big to fail, it has new application to this moment.
PERINO: What about western Pennsylvania? President Trump was able -- they went there for a reason. He needs Pennsylvania to stay red and also remember in that last debate, Joe Biden said he would get rid of fossil fuels in 10 years.
WATTERS: Yes, really dumb comment from Sleepy Joe. The American worker has shifted from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party under Trump for three reasons. One, Trump's focus on trade, immigration, and energy. And the Democrats have capitulated on all those things.
If you think about America first or made in America and the attack on NAFTA and the attack on China, that kind of economic nationalism has really galvanized wage growth and really seen an explosion in manufacturing in this country that's focused on U.S. steel, U.S. autos.
And even unions have peeled away that support from the Democratic Party and the Democrats were caught totally flat-footed in 2016 and now they are playing defense of their own rust belt.
On the border, Trump has protected the American worker from cheap labor that drives those wages down and steals American jobs. And the Democrats have decided to side with foreign workers and against the American worker, and the American worker does not like that.
And then thirdly, just Trump's focus on American energy independence, American energy dominance, talking about re-establishing drilling and exploitation for natural gas and re-emerging coal in West Virginia.
And instead, what the Democrats have done, the Democrats have said OK, we are going to get rid of coal and oil and gas in our first term as president, and that would just completely destroy the U.S. economy. So, you got to give Trump some credit but you also have to blame the Democrats too.
WILLIAMS: Let me just quickly rebut this and say --
WATTERS: You can't do it quickly.
WILLIAMS: I think in that district, in the midterms, the Democrats won, Jesse. And they won just like they went to the --
WATTERS: They won on health care, Juan.
WILLIAMS: No, no. They won by saying, hey, you know what, we stand for you American workers. It's just like today. Trump goes to that plant. Do you know when Shell said they were going to build that plant, 2012, when Barack Obama was halfway through his first term.
WATTERS: I was talking about Pennsylvania. You've seen jobs in that sector, steel go up by 5,000 where they should have under Biden and Obama.
PERINO: Emily to speak.
COMPAGNO: Thank you. I just had a quick point about actually where that Shell plant where the president was talking. That's actually in a really unique part of the country. And stalwart Republicans like Ronald Reagan and both Bush's were never able to carry that super, heavily pro-union county until McCain in 2008 secured it for the GOP.
And not because he was really likable, but because the policies he was running against were so liberal. And since then, Republicans obviously have been winning by increasing margins there.
But I think Joe Biden over anyone else is the only Democratic candidate that actually has a chance of carrying those counties surrounding Pittsburgh because it harkens back --
PERINO: We'll see. He'll probably head there --
COMPAGNO: -- to that pro-union Democratic heyday, but it's Trump's to lose.
PERINO: All right, we have a Fox News alert for you. We are monitoring the situation out of Philadelphia. Police are in a standoff with an apparent gunman. In Philly, our local station WTXF is reporting that three officers have been shot, one in the hand, one in the head, and one of the arms. We are going to take a quick break, come back with all of these breaking developments, next.
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