The life and legacy of Sen. John McCain

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Gutfeld on the life of John McCain

Senator John McCain was an independent thinker, a round peg in the world capital of square holes.

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 27, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hi, I'm Greg Gutfeld with Tammy Bruce, Juan Williams, Brian Kilmeade, and she skis in a sugar bowl, Dana Perino -- "The Five."

Life is all about holes. You spend your life trying to fit into one, but that's the last thing you should want because when you die, trust me, you'll fit. No matter how round a peg you are, eventually you go nicely into a rectangular hole. It's your job to do what John McCain did: Never willingly fit, never lie down and quit, make a fuss, make everyone work harder. In fact, you can measure a life by the size of the hole needed to accommodate it. Make sure yours is McCain's size.

There are people whose exit leaves a Grand Canyon-sized space that can never truly be filled. Senator McCain left that space. And while condolences may often feel trite, they can help fill that space, especially when there are millions of them. Senator McCain was foremost an independent thinker, a round peg in a world capital of square holes. He owned his thoughts, critics be damned. His experiences taught him to shrug stuff off stuff that would have left us in tears. Five and a half years in a prison camp will do that to you, and that's real diversity.

He was feisty, funny and real. We need a good John McCain and not just every generation but every day. Somebody who reminds us that we don't all have to act the same and who knows that there is a difference between a good idea and the latest idea.

The Earth is covered in cemeteries, endless green acres of rectangular holes. There's one near you and in your future. But if there's an army of round pegs filling square holes won't be easy. And life, be a John McCain, be a little less predictable tomorrow than you were today. Realize that politics is only a small part of life, not life itself. Be the round peg that refuses to fit in.

Dana, I heard you earlier talking about John McCain when the news came out. I just want to get your thoughts on -- I don't know, his passing and.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, I didn't know him until after 2001. I came to the Bush White House after 9/11. And any time that John McCain was around, it was a joyous time. He's actually -- he could be quite cantankerous. And you will find that there are many people in Washington who got, you know, their heads ripped off by him, but they always respected him. He was a joy to have as an ally and could be a really tough person if he wasn't on your side.

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: But you -- he commanded such respect that you would have to listen to him. One of the big fights or -- I shouldn't say was a fight, but a disagreements was about enhance interrogation techniques in the wake of the war on terror and 9/11, and he felt so strongly, and you couldn't disagree. Obviously, he had gone through it.

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: He knew what he was talking about. And so, I remember those fights. But the other thing that I remember to is, because I wasn't there on the 2000 campaign, I only knew John McCain as a friend to George W. Bush and an ally. And as I learned more about how difficult and tough that primary -- and bitter that primary was, when George W. Bush finally wins in South Carolina over McCain, that -- what a remarkable level of forgiveness happens between adversaries so then they can go on to work. And then as a staffer that's really great because then you can work with their staff and there's no bitterness, there's no recrimination. What I really enjoyed in the past two days is reading stories that I didn't know.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: And a few of them having to do with all the things that I really loved about him, especially the freedom fighting, his belief that America was a force for good in the world, and that he would never, ever, during recess where he go and take a vacation. He always went to see the troops or visit somebody who needed America's helped. And, obviously, he will be missed. He's a man of principle. He evokes strong emotions in people.

GUTFELD: Definitely.

PERINO: Nobody is neutral.

GUTFELD: No, no, no, that's real. Brian, I don't know if you had any personal feelings with him, you know, based off?

BRIAN KILMEADE, GUEST CO-HOST: No.

GUTFELD: Yes. Nobody makes them up.

KILMEADE: Right. That's true. But they're all based on a true story. And here's the thing, it's little like covering sports, when you first break in at 22 you have the worst mite flag there is. You're in the worst station at the worst time. And you walk into a locker room and they treat you just like your mite flag. So you're not on a network. With John McCain he treated everyone equally, make people seem important but not patronizing. He would come on to deliver. He had something to say every day. And I'm wondering, it seems like there's only five people working on the senate on every major issue.

GUTFELD: Yes.

KILMEADE: Not only does he have an opinion, there's a problem in Syria. There's an unrest. So next thing you know, he is in Syria at 78-years-old meeting with the free Syrian army. There's a problem in Ukraine, there's an interactions. Well, and it's 5, 10 degrees below zero, he is sitting there on a stage in the Ukraine and they're saying John McCain would come on with you in the morning because there's 12 hours at a time. See, this is unbelievable.

The other thing I would keep in mind with John McCain which I thought was fantastic, he sincerely admitted when he was wrong. The Keating five, I blow it. He always regret -- I don't think this is wrong, but he regretted the confessions they beat out of him in the big picture. He also -- I also think that when it came to the collapsing of the economy, I think that at one point he lost to Barack Obama. Barack Obama calmly picked with the phone and talked to Anne Paulson, said what's going on? When John McCain suspended his campaign he got angry. In retrospect, he said, you know, I could have handled that better. It's kind of cool to think that you could be that important, admit you are wrong, and still forge straight ahead.

GUTFELD: Juan, you must have interviewed him a number of times in your career. Anything experiences that strike you?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, he could be really angry.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: He can get angry, I can tell you that. You know, that's not a joke. John McCain would be furious with me at times and.

GUTFELD: What -- for what?

WILLIAMS: I remember the one that really stand -- stands out was in '07. He was losing in the Republican primaries. And the question was why is he carrying on? And I would ask that publicly on Special Report, I say, you know, I don't see why McCain bothered to stay in this race. And he just -- well, he did not react well. And he especially didn't react well when he came back and won.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: And he love the idea that he would stick it to me that say, hey, you're supposed to be so smart about -- huh, huh. So, I mean, that's the way he felt about it. That's fine. But you know what strikes me is that, through it all, anger or whatever, was the sense of honor. And you know people in the military, and the rarity of John McCain is that his granddad and his dad were both admirals. And then he goes to the U.S. military -- U.S. naval academy in Annapolis, which is where he would be buried. And he's not an outstanding student, but he is a dedicated person. And when he goes to war he's a dedicated person. I think he's the kind of person based on the honor that he displayed as a politician that I would want at my back if I'm under fire.

And when you saw John McCain's statement, the statement that he issued knowing that he was about to die, he talked about American ideals, Greg, in terms of, this is a country based on an idea, not on blood and soil. And he spoke with a depth that I don't hear from politicians about what real patriotism is. You know politicians are always glad to wrap themselves in the flag, not John McCain. And he could have done it more easily than any of them because he really was, as Dana said, in a prison camp and tortured. I'm not saying he was just held, tortured. And displayed to me what was the greatest example of honor that I could think of as somebody I know, which is not to allow yourself to be freed.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: . because the enemy knows that your dad is in charge of the troops.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: And you're not going to let yourself be freed as a propaganda statement and leave your brother behind. I don't think there's any higher tribute that I could give to John McCain and to recount that story today.

GUTFELD: No, that's -- it's an amazing, amazing story. Tammy?

TAMMY BRUCE, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah. And I think a lot of people watching, and a lot of the people listened on my radio show have serious disagreements, politically, obviously, was Senator McCain. And we've -- expressed those and there's going to be time in the future to have those critiques. This is a time though to reflect on somebody, and all of us really, more than just what we see necessarily on television, more than in one moment that reflects something. And who someone is and what they've contributed within the larger context. And his final statement, I think, said something very appropriate for all of us across the spectrum about not surrendering, right? About what really matters.

And that's the message especially for Trump supporters that they can learn from, that no matter what's going on that you continue on with what matters to you. That you -- none of us are going to get out of this alive, right? We're going to hopefully have a wonderful moment at the end where we can think about what mattered, if we did what we could and in every single way. And that's what I think all of us are trying to do. And he also mentioned, of course, the thing that gave him the strength. I worked on that campaign briefly in a peripheral way in 2008. The difference was his family, his wife and his daughter, Megan, who I got to know a little bit, and that, of course, was -- just a foundation for him, I think, that makes a huge difference for every politician, for all of us who do these things.

And, of course, in the future, there's going to be much more critique, discussion about his legacy and the nature of what he has been able to accomplish, the things he's done when it comes to legislation, and how we move forward from this. But I think, ultimately, it's about sticking with your principles, not being bullied away from them, continuing on to help make this country stronger and better, and I think we're in a good position doing that.

GUTFELD: All right. Well, up next, Geraldo Rivera takes us inside the opioid crisis in America with brand-new footage of a major drug investigation. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Stunning statistics out this month about the growing opioid epidemic in America. A record 72,000 Americans die from overdoses last year alone with opioids accounting for almost 50,000 of that total. Geraldo Rivera joins us with an on the ground look at this crisis. He joins a task force of the DEA, Tennessee bureau of investigation, and local authorities during a federal drug investigation in Tennessee. And Geraldo, I'll turn it over to you to explain what you're doing, and I believe you have done some interviews on the ground as well.

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS: We have, Dana. Thank you very much. Welcome to Nashville, the capital of Tennessee. The state capitol building majestic behind me. The flags on the top of the state capital have never waver they are at half-staff to recognize the passing of Senator John McCain. About halfway between here in Nashville and Knoxville in the eastern part of the state, there's a little town called Celina, Tennessee, in Clay County. Fifteen hundred people live in Celina, Tennessee, 1,500 people served by four big busy drugstores. Those four big busy drugstores, last year, according to the DEA wrote 1.3 million prescriptions, 1.3 million pills, opioid pills were prescribed by those four drugstores in that tiny town of Celina, Tennessee. Obviously, what the DEA and the TBI, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, suspects is that some of those drugs are being diverted or the doctors are overprescribing, that those drugstores have become prescription pill factories, dispensing drugs to people who pay the freight, but causing the kind of carnage that your reference at the top of the segment, 72,000 Americans dead last year alone, that's up from 64,000 in 2016, 72,000 last year, that number continues to rise. It is one of the leading causes of death in our country. C. Martin Reed, the DEA administrator in charge of the raids on those four drugstores in Celina, Tennessee, this morning, spoke with us. He guided us through this process. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. MARTIN REED, DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION: But at this point we're going to make sure we get records, we look at records, we analyze the records, we look at the dispensing logs, the prescriptions, all of the drugs. We'll do a count of the drugs just to make sure that there is no actual diversion happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: We've spoked to the people who were apparently in charge of two of the four of those big drugstores in Celina, Tennessee. Here is their side of the story when I confronted them with the suspicion held by the DEA and the TBI that they are prescribing way too many opioids.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: Kind of a shocking way to start your day. How are you feeling?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I feel fine.

RIVERA: Do you feel confident that all of the opioids coming out of this place are legitimately prescribed and dispensed by you?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Very confident.

RIVERA: Why such a large number? Why so many doses per capita? Why people coming from Kentucky?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have hardly anybody coming from Kentucky.

RIVERA: Why such a high number of opioids prescribed? How do you feel about the DEA coming to your drugstore this morning kind of suspecting that you're dispensing more opioids than you should be?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I really -- no comment.

RIVERA: But can you explain why so much traffic in this little town? Why four big drugstores?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir. There's no comment.

RIVERA: Is that four drugstores here to serve the local population of 1,500 in the town of Celina?

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: I can't answer that, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: We know how the Mexican drug cartels are killing Americans. We know how the Chinese and their fentanyl factories are killing Americans. But, Dana, as you've said at the top, over 50,000 of those overdose deaths are caused by prescription pills prescribed by drugstores right next door. We've got to check and see if they're really doing the right thing by their customers. Dana, back to you.

PERINO: All right, Geraldo. Thank you for that report. We appreciate it. We'll check back in with you throughout the week. We thank you for that. Greg, I know this is a topic you've talked about a lot.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: There is a problem with overdoses but.

GUTFELD: I think the problem right now are the overdoses -- the overwhelming majority of them are from street drugs containing fentanyl. If you look at the risk of overdose among cancer patients and pain patients who are taking actual prescription drugs, it's .3 percent per year. And when you look at opioid overdoses, it's very misleading when they say 50,000. It's a combination that is killing people, combination of opioids, benzos, cocaine, alcohol. A lot of times people using as a lifestyle party drug. They overdose. They buy it on the street. Why am I bringing this up? Because we are unfairly punishing cancer patients and pain patients by limiting their access to prescription drugs. When they reduce the number of prescription drugs overdoses actually go up. What does that remind you of? Prohibition, when you made it harder to get the booze more people were dying of alcohol poisoning because they were using an unsafe product.

So, once again, if you're a conservative and you're for banning prescription drugs, then you should also -- or pursuing -- if you were for pursuing prescription drug companies then you should be pursuing gun companies, all right? If a gun is used in an armed robbery, illegally, you should be suing a gun company. You should be suing an automobile company if the car was in the getaway car. So you cannot be a conservative and say we're suing drug companies because somebody is buying drugs on the streets.

KILMEADE: But, Greg, I would say this, there's nothing -- there's no holes to poke in your argument except for -- if I have a gun I know it's dangerous.

GUTFELD: Right.

KILMEADE: If a doctor in a lab coat hands me these and say these will make -- you just trust those doctors.

GUTFELD: Right.

KILMEADE: You know a gun could potentially be dangerous and they tell you that. But you don't think that the painkillers that you get when you leave the hospital or because your ankle injury, you don't think that's.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: 99.7 percent of the people who use opioids prescriptions are using them safely. The people who are overdosing are using them unsafely on the street.

BRUCE: If I could add that -- we also know that when you get off of -- or if you're taking away from not given your prescription for the opioids because of our war on this, people then go to heroin.

GUTFELD: Right.

BRUCE: So that's where you get the higher rate of the overdoses.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

BRUCE: . in that regard. But we also know there's nationalized healthcare we start moving to this in 2009. A comment from President Barack Obama in June of 2009, we're not to solve every difficult problem in terms of end- of-life care but, maybe, you're better off not having the surgery but taking the painkiller. That attitude comes in to a frame where you save a lot of money if you don't do a surgery. And if you got that back surgery you want to do or something else and somebody prescribes a pain reliever instead, usually opioid, that's what we saw beginning in 2009. And then you get indoctrinated into that, if you will, something we've got to move people out of.

WILLIAMS: So I think the part -- the only thing that I think is missing here is it the attention to big pharma, because big pharma's are being sued, I think, Produce is being sued here in New York State. And I see this all over the country. Finally, you see attorney general saying, you know what, you guys have underplayed the risk of addiction. So this is what -- you're talking about, Tammy, which is that -- it may not be the people who are being treated end up dying from it.

BRUCE: Right.

WILLIAMS: . but they become addicted to it, then they end up going to the street.

BRUCE: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: Then they go up to other drugs.

BRUCE: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: . they go to the fentanyl. They go.

BRUCE: They started with the prescription, then they move. PERINO: But that's the point though is what Greg's saying is that we have now -- the doctors are afraid to prescribe. The pharmacies are getting, you know.

GUTFELD: Punishing 99 percent of the people using it. And, again, we're forgetting the people that are overdosing are mixing.

PERINO: And, also, though -- but the point -- as Geraldo was saying, the drug cartels from Mexico and the illegal drugs from China, that is where I think, hopefully, we can have.

KILMEADE: They give you 24 pills. Should you be responsible for those 24 pills? Because a lot of kids are going into the cabinet grabbing what's left of your injury, should you be responsible for that?

WILLIAMS: Of course you've got to be responsible.

PERINO: Well, what about -- is that true with a gun?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

KILMEADE: Yeah, absolutely.

PERINO: Exactly. All right. President Trump said he's terminating NAFTA and replacing it with a better deal with Mexico. The political impact, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: President Trump calling it a big day for trade as the U.S. and Mexico reach a new deal which he says will replace NAFTA. The president describing the impact of the tentative agreement with our neighbor to the south, also outlining his plans with Canada.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I like to call this deal the United States-Mexico trade agreement. I think it's an elegant name. I think NAFTA has a lot of bad connotation for the United States because it was a rip off. It was a deal that -- was a horrible deal for our country. I'll be terminating the existing deal and going into this deal. We'll start negotiating with Canada relatively soon. They want to start -- they want to negotiate very badly. But one way, the other, we have a deal with Canada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So, Brian, what do you make of this? I mean, we don't know all the details what we have been able to discern. So far, is that it takes into account the digital economy in a big way. There's some emphasis on trying to bring car manufacturing back to the U.S. But in general, does not seem like a huge leap over the deal that the president blew up.

KILMEADE: There'll be some provision. They're going to talked about automobile and energy. And you mentioned the internet. Evidently, Jared Kushner, there's a lot of credit, Robert Lighthizer, too. Say, Lamar Alexander, to me, underlined what could be happening to the president. And Republican has said, I kind of like NAFTA. I've got to see the details. I want him to come to congress to ratify it. My sense is, if you told me, what are the chances of Mexico in a transition from old leader to new leader, agreeing on one-third of NAFTA as opposed to Canada. That is no way that's going to happen even in the best terms. But he got Mexico done first and guess who is looking over the shoulder the whole time? Canada. They want to start negotiating right away. So, again, this is why we've hired him, to go and start forging some of these unique deals. In this case, modernize and improve. I haven't read this trade agreement yet. But my sense is they saw enough in the market to rage. Today, over 26,000, gained over 250 points, Boeing, Caterpillar, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan all climbed the most because of their diverse.

BRUCE: This seems to be like the overarching approach of President Trump. You've got this new socialist coming in effectively to run Mexico. They know that the economic relationship with the United States matters, right? They know President Trump means what he says. They've got to work with him. And so, that means they're going to have to start compromise and say yes to certain things, because without us there's going to be -- even more economic problems if you've got a socialist leader who wants to have a party down there and they're going to need economic cooperation with the United States. Part of it is moving -- automobile manufacturing more -- 75 percent here versus 62.5 percent, at least they say. So what it says is, is that you're right. Is that Mexico knows that America matters, and that they've got to work with President Trump and that he's not kidding. And this is where you get good deals and he's done it.

WILLIAMS: Well, Dana, I think a little bit more skeptical view.

PERINO: You do?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Which is that the president did away with NAFTA when before was -- could have been renegotiated peacefully, and made a tax on -- not only Canada, but Mexico as ripping us off.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Ripping us off. Oh, it doesn't sound like, Brian. PERINO: Well, nobody went to war, right? So there is -- we're still peaceful.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

PERINO: . and better trade means for better neighbors. It's like having a wall or.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Is that in there, too?

PERINO: It might not be in there. But I think this agreement, in principle -- like, it's all good. I don't think it's as big as it could have been. The sunset that the Trump team wanted was a five-year sunset. It's a 16-year sunset with a six-year review period.

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: So I think people got a lot out of it.

I disagree. I do think that it's easier for an outgoing, lame-duck president in Mexico to work with the president of the United States to get something done. And I think the new leader said, "Could you please get this done before I take over?"

KILMEADE: I mean, you had three people working in two nations.

PERINO: And it makes a lot of sense to me. I do think on the locally- sourced thing, though, I -- what will happen is that cars will be more expensive if they're made here.

WILLIAMS: Correct. Yes.

PERINO: And I think a lot on the locally sourced thing, though, that what will happen is cars will be more expensive that they are made here and I think a lot of those U.S. manufacturers will figure out a way to make more in China and export them this way. So it will all work out in the end. I'm for more trade.

WILLIAMS: Well, Greg, you and I negotiate daily.

GUTFELD: Of course. Over things we can't discuss. By the way, I'll get it to you after work.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, brother.

KILMEADE: Michael Cohen will eventually leak it to Lanny Davis.

GUTFELD: You know what's interesting? Donald Trump shows how he's far less racist than Hollywood. Because whenever Hollywood gets picked off, they go, "We're moving to Canada. We're moving to Canada."

In Trump's world, Canada is the bridesmaid. He went straight to Mexico. So that steals another talking point away from the media and it also proves all the Paul Krugmans wrong who said he wasn't going to revamp and he wasn't going to keep up his end of the bargain. So I thought it was kind of interesting.

PERINO: And they'll end up saying that's not that big of a deal, but that's fine.

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: I also think this. I think NAFTA has been -- it was bad for certain groups of people --

WILLIAMS: Sure.

PERINO: -- and the president spoke directly to them. I think renaming it is fine. If it takes the toxicity out of it and makes everyone for trade again, like, let's just go with it.

GUTFELD: Yes, yes. Exactly.

PERINO: Call it whatever you want.

BRUCE: It's what the president does, is branding.

KILMEADE: I just want to see Canada do something. Now what is Canada going to do with their beer prices?

PERINO: That's on the table right now.

WILLIAMS: You know, what's interesting to me is that the Bernie Sanders folks, the unions, were big opponents of NAFTA.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Because it was taking jobs in this country. So then you get Donald Trump comes in, and he comes at it from the right, that populist point of view. But I'm not sure that he will be able to say this is bringing a large number of jobs back. But he will be able to say he made a deal and that, I think, it satisfies Wall Street, Brian.

KILMEADE: It shows another thing he said he was going to do that he's going to do.

BRUCE: And every --

GUTFELD: All the while, he's being chased by this giant machine, trying to enseed (ph) him. He still goes to work every day.

WILLIAMS: I worry about the Chinese.

BRUCE: He goes to work every day. And he does deliver. We've seen in every single case. It helps with jobs and the economy.

WILLIAMS: I hope so.

BRUCE: And the stock market.

WILLIAMS: I worry about the big one. I think Wall Street's worried about the Chinese deals and what happens there.

KILMEADE: But everybody wants it reconfigured. So he's got Democrats and Republicans.

WILLIAMS: All right. Brand-new information about the suspect in that horrific Florida shooting. Police are still searching for a motive. The latest straight ahead on "The Five."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KILMEADE: All right. Fox News alert there. Brand-new information about that horrific shooting on Sunday, caught on live stream during a Madden videogame tournament, Madden 2019.

It happened over in Jacksonville. Court records reportedly show the suspected gunman, who had been previously hospitalized for mental illness and was prescribed antipsychotic, antidepressant medication. Meanwhile, police still not revealing a motive but are providing new details on what happened. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE WILLIAMS, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF'S OFFICE: The suspect clearly targeted other gamers who were in the back room of Chicago Pizza, participating in this gaming tournament. The suspect walked -- walked, excuses me, past patrons who were in other parts of the business and focused his attention on the gamers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILMEADE: There you go. Authorities also say the suspect had two handguns; only fired one.

Juan, your take on this event that took place, because none of these people were from Jacksonville, as one of the reporters put up this morning on WOKV, one of our affiliates on the radio. He said normally there's a vigil, and there's candles, and there's flowers. But no one even knew anybody that -- that was participating. It was an out-of-town event, a regional championship.

WILLIAMS: So this is -- you know, for me, this is like -- I love sports. But this is EA electronic sports. And the idea --

KILMEADE: It will be an Olympic sport in 2024, by the way. I'm being serious.

WILLIAMS: You're serious. I know. But this is a huge change in our reality, that these people are watching other people play a video game, essentially.

PERINO: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: And this young man from Baltimore, apparently, had won this tournament earlier, was unhappy at something in the outcome. I don't know if he felt that --

KILMEADE: Well, he lost Saturday.

WILLIAMS: But I don't know if he felt that he got cheated, Brian. I don't know if he felt that other people were making fun of him. We know, as you described in the opening, he had been hospitalized for mental issues. So I don't know the details here. I mean, all I can say is, you know, I come back to the same refrain I've said often, which is I think we have too many guns in this country.

KILMEADE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And by the way, do you know where he got the gun from?

KILMEADE: No, I don't. They're raiding his Baltimore apartment. We were doing "Fox & Friends" --

WILLIAMS: His dad's. I think it's his dad's in Federal Hill. Yes.

KILMEADE: Right. Tammy, this was a no-gun zone. So even though Florida has one rules when you come to Jackson Square, you can't bring a gun there. Did it work?

BRUCE: It didn't work. But some of the gamers now, of courses, as you might imagine, are calling for more security. They want people to be able to be searched. These are turning out to be huge events, all kinds of people from all over the place, right, who might not even know the local rules or if they're traveling with guns. But they're vulnerable positions, soft targets obviously, beyond just one person who might be on psychotropics and whose mind is in trouble, versus terrorism. Right?

You'd think that we would get this when it comes to large groups of people. So America has been educated on that. But -- and already, of course, it's been politicized with firearms, Ivanka Trump being attacked for sending her condolences on Twitter, saying -- talking about the NRA --

KILMEADE: In fact, we have that. We'll weave that in. Ivanka Trump came out and said, "I offer my condolences," but of course --

BRUCE: And Dick Durbin and others, you know, talking about the gun issue. But the problem with that is, when you go immediately just to that, it sucks all the air out of the room to deal with what is the common link in virtually every shooting.

KILMEADE: Mental illness.

BRUCE: Which is mental illness. But more than mental illness, also, beyond that, is the nature of the treatment. Are the drugs that are used, especially with the young people and how they affect them. The thing -- especially just before Columbine, is when psychotropics were initially approved to be dealt with when it comes to young people. So that's what we have to be dealing with directly, I think.

KILMEADE: Dana, this guy out of his mind Saturday showed up in the same outfit Sunday, started shooting live on camera. I think that figured into it.

PERINO: Right. Well, the guy that -- that beat him the day before said that he refused to shake -- the suspect refused to shake his hand after the match. He was staring blankly, acting weird and wearing the same clothes as the day before.

That's not necessarily something you would go to authorities about, because that's just not what we do.

KILMEADE: Bad loser. Can't arrest him.

PERINO: But to Tammy's point, yes, it is the case that there is a group that will always go straight to "We have too many guns." But I do think there is the point of OK, then when can we talk about the common link, and mental illness. When can we have a concentrated conversation about it? We've been doing this show for seven and half years, and we talk about this, I don't know, every other month or so.

KILMEADE: Right.

PERINO: It's time to have this conversation.

KILMEADE: All right, Greg. I know you're really hot on this.

GUTFELD: Well, the issue is there are a number of variables and some people find one variable, guns, more of a priority than another variable, which is mental illness.

You could probably address the whole thing with a database, which I've talked about, where teachers and relatives can submit a name to a civil court of somebody they believe is mentally ill and should not be near a firearm. If this was the dad's firearm, he should be held responsible for that. If this unstable, mentally-ill people was to get that.

That way you don't punish -- and I talk about this with opioids. You don't punish the overwhelming majority of people who are using the product wisely, whether you're driving a car or using opioids or whether you're using opioids or you're using weapons. It's the same principle. Do not punish the lawful. Target the unlawful or the mentally ill.

KILMEADE: Do you think it's a factor. If you're going to a none -- a no- gun zone, if you show up with a gun, you know you're not getting shot. So if you know you're going anywhere else in Florida and you pull out a gun, there's a chance that someone is going blow your head off before you have a chance to get your -- to get your target, which is -- I think he wounded 11, killed two, and then he killed himself.

GUTFELD: Right.

KILMEADE: So --

GUTFELD: There is stats that show that the length of a gun attack is dictated by the arrival of a second gun. So --

BRUCE: Maybe also what we've seen, also, with the psychotropics, is they affect young people differently than adults. And we're aware of that. There's black box warnings about suicide, effectively, but behavior changes, especially with young people.

So we've got to at least address that. Is that the right go-to. Just like with opioids, to save money when maybe a different kind of therapy would work, maybe someone does need to be hospitalized for a period of time. I know that's politically incorrect these days, giving parents more power to commit their children, people they're in charge of, as opposed to just giving up. You've got to deal with that.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say that most people with mental illnesses do not --

KILMEADE: Right.

WILLIAMS: -- start shooting everywhere.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: So I'm just cautious about this quickness to say, it's about mental -- it's not about mental illness in most cases at all.

BRUCE: In the shootings it is.

WILLIAMS: I don't think so, Tammy. But what the other point they say is here that what you have is these guns everywhere, and people say, well, but you just should have it, you know, illegal. It's OK.

Why don't we ever have the things that we on "The Five" can agree on, which is, you know, if you're going to get a gun, we should know exactly who you are. You should have a background check. And it shouldn't be that all these guns are floating around.

KILMEADE: Let's find out if this is a Nikolas Cruz situation where everyone knew he was -- he was a shooter. It was just a matter of time. We'll find out.

Meanwhile, 17 minutes before the top of the hour. Here's the message. Be on time, do hard time. Reports of a stunning high school punishment for ditching class. That story coming your way.

GUTFELD: Radio guy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRUCE: Well, if you think after-school detention is severe, listen to these stories.

An Oklahoma high school is reportedly cracking down on students for tardiness and skipping class by threatening fines and possibly jail time. A state law allows students to be slapped with a $250 fine -- Boy, they've got a lot of money in that school -- for missing classes repeatedly without an excused absence. They could even be put behind bars for 15 days.

And in North Carolina, the parents of a 10-year-old boy are outraged, claiming their child was punished for being too polite, by calling his fifth-grade teacher, "Ma'am." They say their son was forced to write the word more than one hundred times on a piece of paper and have them sign it.

You guys, obviously, this is a little crazy. I contend that teacher in that story perhaps didn't know what "ma'am" meant, because the issue is usually that you're not respectful in class. For her to be upset about that. And when confronted by the mom, she couldn't explain why it upset her. So that becomes an issue.

But isn't this also about whose parenting, and you've got the school districts and teachers thinking that they can really do whatever they want because they think that there are no parents around?

WILLIAMS: I don't know. I mean, you would hope that there are people around. And in this case, the parents saw that all the kid had done was say, "ma'am." So what was interesting to me was there must be administrators in this school who agreed with the teacher. But then when the school system was asked about it, all they said was, "This is a personnel issue, and we will deal with it." So I'm thinking they think the teacher didn't act wisely.

BRUCE: Now, look, Brian, $250 in this other case, for kids who don't -- it's like four absences within four weeks. Two hundred and fifty dollar fine. I don't know what kid has that or what parents have that floating around. Or 15 days in jail. Isn't that going to the other extreme, versus Parkland, where we weren't allowed to do anything about any misbehavior?

KILMEADE: Right. I mean, this goes -- this goes in the face of everything trending away. Let's inflate the grades. Let's make everything easier. Let's all get along, try not to punish.

I've seen -- you know what I walk away with? Oklahoma, they tend to be tougher and harder on everything. They're also -- to me, the school has some issues, and it shows a school faculty that cares.

PERINO: Yes.

KILMEADE: A lot of times you would still discipline, because you care. It's taken the exact opposite way. They don't want your money. They want your attention, and they got your attention.

BRUCE: Maybe, Dana, did it get the parents' attention, because you know it would be the parents who'd pay that fine?

PERINO: Right. But four unexcused absences in a four-week period, like, basically, you're robbing the taxpayers at that point. Like, the taxpayers are paying for you to have the opportunity to go to school. You were lucky enough to be born in America or you're here in America and having a chance to go to school. The taxpayers are willing to pay for you to be there. You'd better show up. And if you don't, you're going to pay for it. And you can't be here, then you don't need to be here at all. We don't need to pay for you to be here.

BRUCE: And then you end up being --

PERINO: I don't know about the jail thing, though.

BRUCE: The jail thing, I mean, that becomes another issue. What is the deal with 15 -- 15 days in jail?

KILMEADE: Greg -- Greg, you've done hard time. Is it that bad?

BRUCE: Does it make you drop out more than stay when you've got this dynamic overshadowing you of thinking you might get put in jail?

GUTFELD: I think the fear being put in jail is why I was on the straight and narrow all my life. In fact, I think watching "Dragnet" and "Adam 12" --

KILMEADE: You were scared straight.

GUTFELD: And FBI when I was a kid, I thought that I was inevitably going to be in prison, because there were so many cop shows.

I think we grouped these two topics incorrectly. The one about the discipline is really, really smart, I think. And powerful, and works --

BRUCE: You don't think it's too much?

GUTFELD: I think it's not enough. And the other one about "ma'am" is obviously insane. "Ma'am" is the product of misplaced punishment, that we've run out of ways to make moral judgments. So now we're just creating punishment supplements. We're punishing people for just the littlest things, because we can't make moral decisions.

BRUCE: I still say "ma'am" and "sir."

WILLIAMS: But sometimes people say "ma'am" to some people, they think you're -- you're being, like, sort of -- first of all, you're thinking they're older --

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- to call them "ma'am."

PERINO: I am.

WILLIAMS: Not you, Dana.

BRUCE: Well, the mom -- the good news is, the mom intervened in that, right, that the mom was not happen. She saw the paper, and they delivered the note with the signatures the teacher required but then with the definition of "ma'am," making it clear that it was something that was laudatory.

WILLIAMS: By the way -- by the way, Tammy, I don't think you have a choice. I think if you decide to leave school because you don't want to pay the fine, then you're in violation of law that says you've got to be in school if you're under 16.

BRUCE: All righty. Well, we're going to find out what happens inevitably.

Now, we've got "One More Thing" coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: All right. "One More Thing," and this is going to blow your mind. Do you ever want to have chocolate that never runs out, well, mathematicians have figured this out.

GRAPHIC: Greg's Infinite Chocolate News

GUTFELD: Yes, it's "Greg's Infinite Chocolate News"!

All right. I'm going to show you how to never end up without chocolate. This is how you cut a chocolate bar. There you go. You take one little piece off. You move that out. You go there and you move it back there. So just put it there. See? That's how you do it. You do it again. This is so you can never run out of chocolate.

PERINO: I tried to --

GUTFELD: Try it again, take a look. I'll show it to you again. Mathematicians are never wrong!

PERINO: OK.

GUTFELD: But it only works with white chocolate. There you go. They did it because you can see. Isn't that amazing? It's mind-blowing isn't it?

I would tell you how it works, but then why? I want you to live in an eternal confusion.

All right. Who's next? Dana.

PERINO: Maybe a little math can tell me that.

Yesterday, Hawaii won the Little League World Series by shutting out South Korea, 3-0. Mana Lau Kang hit a home run off the first pitch of the game, giving team Hawaii a 1-0 lead it held all game to clench the championship title. This is the first shutout in a title game since 2002 and Hawaii's first championship since 2008.

They are now the seventh U.S. team with at least three Little League World Series titles. And they were all doing this while Hurricane Lane was threatening Hawaii, but they brought home the winning title. Congratulations, guys.

BRUCE: They needed some good news.

PERINO: Yes.

BRUCE: It's a great story.

GUTFELD: Juan.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, family life can get busy on the weekends. Let me show you what I'm talking about.

Here's my granddaughter Pepper at Clayworks in Baltimore. Her grandma took her to the studio to give her her first experience sculpting clay, learning how to glaze and create a bowl.

And then, on Sunday, it was time for a birthday celebration for my daughter-in-law. Morgan's into fitness. She wats a lot of vegetables. So my daughter, the legal eagle, made an amazing cake for her to celebrate her Bugs Bunny diet. She made a cake that looks like a carrot!

PERINO: Wow.

WILLIAMS: Isn't that an amazing cake?

And here is Morgan with her parents, and here's Morgan blowing out the candles. Happy birthday, Morgan.

GUTFELD: All right. Let's go to Brian Kilmeade. I know it's going to be great.

KILMEADE: A lot of people have said why don't you and Greg just fight it out? You don't get along, don't like each other. And I said, well, I don't know how it would turn out.

And then suddenly, on Friday night at premier boxing on another -- on Fox, I saw it. That's me. I'm from Nigeria in this case. And that is Efe Ajagba, and of course, he's going to against Curtis Harper. Curtis Harper saw the size difference and left the wing.

BRUCE: There you go. There you go.

KILMEADE: That would be Greg. He walked right out at 30 years old. He said, "You know what? I'm not getting paid enough. So he left before the fight." The people in attendance were stunned. The opponent was stunned. Nobody gets paid. The trainer distanced himself from it.

PERINO: What happened if you bought a ticket?

KILMEADE: If you bought a ticket, you're in trouble.

I've never seen someone quit.

GUTFELD: Maybe he had a digestive issue. He could have had a digestive issue.

WILLIAMS: I thought it was about the money.

KILMEADE: He's not getting paid.

BRUCE: Yesterday, of course, Sunday was National Dog Day. I've got a great dog. She's 13 years old. There she is. Cindy Bruce, a rescue dog. My first dog, first experience with that kind of unconditional love that requires everything from you.

Sixty percent of Americans believe that owning a pet can improve your lives and that, of course, dogs do that in particular. And so Sydney of course pays her respect to America's dog, Jasper. There she is. Cancer survivor. And it's -- if you don't have a dog, I'd recommend it.

GUTFELD: All right. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." "Special Report" is up next.

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