Supreme Court rulings deal blows to Obamacare, unions

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 30, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, and an annoying Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City, and this is "The Five."


PERINO: Two big Supreme Court rulings this morning and -- believe it or not -- despite the hype and protests the republic still stands. One dealt a blow to labor unions. We're going to get to that in a bit.

But, first, to the highly-anticipated Hobby Lobby verdict, which dealt a blow to Obamacare. The arts and craft chain directly challenged the mandate that employers provide free coverage for four particular contraceptives even if it violates the company's religious beliefs. In a
5-4 decision the court ruled certain for-profit businesses can opt-out.

Here's reaction from both sides.


LORI WINDHAM, SENIOR COUNSEL FOR HOBBY LOBBY: Today's decision is a landmark decision for religious freedom. The Supreme Court recognized that American families do not lose their fundamental rights when they open a family business. Women's voices are heard standing up for religious freedom. This case is about the freedoms of all Americans, women and men, and it's something that all Americans should celebrate today.

ILYSE HOGUE, PRESIDENT, NARAL-PRO CHOICE: I'm disturbed that five male Supreme Court justices would essentially state in a ruling that discrimination against women specifically is not really discrimination in this country.


PERINO: No comment on the ruling today directly from President Obama.
But his spokesperson offered this.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There are now a group of women of an indeterminate size who no longer have access to free contraceptive coverage simply because of some religious views that are held not by them necessarily but by their bosses. We disagree and the constitutional lawyer in the Oval Office disagrees with that conclusion from the Supreme Court.


PERINO: The White House says that it's considering a range of options available to the president that he could take after this decision.

We have Kimberly Guilfoyle here today.


PERINO: You're going to set the stage for us because it's slightly complicated. But you can --

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: It is. But everyone should understand from the outset that this is a very narrowly tailored decision. That is the main point here. It applies specifically to the case at hand.

And so, what that means is this is going to generate other cases that are similarly situated because they will try to get different groups depending on their viewpoint, get the court to expand the ruling further than they did here in this particular case. So, I like the way that the court carefully tailored it. They did this so they'd be able to stand on strong legal ground and say that this only concerns the contraceptive mandate. So, it's not something that's going to say that all insurance coverage mandates like vaccinations, blood transfusions, everything like that, those will necessarily fail if they conflict with an employer's -- you know, they (INAUDIBLE) for their employees of what they can receive or what they can't.

So here it's just dealing with the, Greg's favorite word, the abortifacient, and whether or not those can be covered.

PERINO: This is definitely seen, Eric, as a win by people who were -- there were chants outside of Hobby Lobby wins, there are a lot of people that are upset about it. But if you go back to 1993 with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act that was a bipartisan bill that was passed, it's really -- that was the question here and then apparently, they changed their mind a lot of the Democrats and were decrying it as a vicious attack against women by the court.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Kind of interesting. Also interesting that Josh Earnest says now women won't have access to contraceptives. Boy, talk about not being earnest, there could be one of the least earnest things Josh Earnest ever say.

Victory for constitutionalist, a victory for religious freedoms, people belief that First Amendment rights of now the corporation and individual are protected, and a victory for common sense. I mean, basically, the Obamacare theory is abortion pills are preventative medicine, post -- when I say abortion pills, I mean, the four abortifacients, right, this is what Hobby Lobby said. We're OK with the 16, we provided 16, but the four that would actually abort a fetus after it's been brought into life, they said they had a problem with those. So, they said those abortifacients, Obamacare calls those preventive. So, Hobby Lobby pushed back on that.

But the fight was employers still should provide that.

PERINO: Right. So, the government --

BOLLING: So, a lot of people who followed the Constitution believed that was a win.

PERINO: The government that is trying to force people of faith to abandon their principles was delivered a brushback pitch by the justices today.

GUILFOYLE: Nice sports analogy.

BOB BECKEL, COP-HOST: Then, I don't know who has taken into account the 13,000 people that work for them. You know, if you --

PERINO: I think Hobby Lobby is.

BECKEL: If two people start a business who are Christian scientists and they grow it into a 10,000 or 15,000-person employee company, does that mean Christian scientists believe you can't be bled, you can't take your kid to a hospital --

PERINO: I think that Kimberly was just explaining to you that no, that is not the case.

GUILFOYLE: No, it's not.

BECKEL: What is the case then? You say that they bring that case in front of --

GUILFOYLE: What I'm saying is that others might try to bring another case to say, listen, will you expand this or this? But the court said again, this applies closely held corporations like Hobby Lobby. So, it's narrowly specified to that -- hold on -- to that type of corporation which is very different than a different hype, publicly held, et cetera.

But let me tell you something else. They also said very important there are viable alternatives and that's what Hobby Lobby maintained the whole time. Look, they can go out and get something else. This is what we're providing. We're certainly not putting a blanket restriction or X on contraceptives or anything like that.

So, it was -- they weren't overbroad in what they chose to exclude, which is why this case was the best one to bring forward and why everybody predicted that it would have the --


BECKEL: So, in other words, for-profit corporations can bring their religious views into the business and affect everybody who works for them, right?

BOLLING: Closely held.


BECKEL: Closely held. Corporations are corporations.

PERINO: Let's get Greg in here, because one of the things you dislike the most is fake outrage and there was plenty of it today with people suggesting that the republic was going to end.

GUTFELD: Well, no. There were actually people that were suggesting burning down Hobby Lobby buildings. The meltdown made Chernobyl look like a tea pot. It's like they banned Pilates or something.

They were comparing a narrow ruling to Sharia law. Some people on Twitter were.

Feminists used to reject the notion of hysteria as an attack on women.
Now, they embrace hysteria. The media meanwhile is framing as religion versus the individual. That's not the case. It's the individual versus government.

They are camouflaging coercion as choice. It's not about religion at all. It's about a private enterprise being told what to do by the government.

But the media likes to portray this right-wing Christians versus progressive women who are losing their right. You can still get your pills. The government will pay for those pills. You don't even have to care about Hobby Lobby. You don't even shop there.

This outrage is a symptom of a dependent society where no demand can be denied. We're creating a nation of entitlement bots. And they screech and they yell when they can't get your way every time. Well, get this -- you can't get your way, everyone.

It's called arts and crafts -- it's Hobby Lobby. It's about arts and crafts. It's not about abortion pills.

BECKEL: But it is about religion -- it isn't about government. It's about religion --

PERINO: And whether you have the freedom of it.

BECKEL: Now, I have a right, I think, to have my Viagra pills covered. They were not covered under this bill.

GUTFELD: But why not? Because that's a health concern for you

BECKEL: I -- exactly right. I think, you know, at 500 bucks for 15 of them, that's pretty expensive.

GUTFELD: And that's cost prohibitive. That's not like birth control pills which is 70 bucks a month. So, you're paying five to six times more for something. But the problem is your Democratic Party doesn't care about you because you don't form the base. You're not a feminist.

BECKEL: Well --


PERINO: Let me ask --let me just mention -- let me mention something else. Greg said that you can't always get what you want. And President Obama, one of the reasons, Eric, he's in this position is because instead of the Congress writing this into law, they had the Health and Human Services Department write it as part of a rule.

So executive action is not as strong as congressional action and maybe the president thought that he had to do this on his own because he thinks Congress doesn't do enough. That's one of the reasons they are in this position. So the answer by the government is to say, well, since we got this pushed back and the president again will not try to ask Congress to fix it, he's going to try to do it on his own through executive action.

BOLLING: Isn't it amazing the white house this afternoon the president may address this through executive? I mean, executive action, correct me if I'm wrong, used to be things like, let's declare, I don't know, next Tuesday national donut day or some important stature died and will fly the flags at half-staff. Now, it's like we're going to revamp the whole economic system. We're going to revamp, you know, how corporations are treated, who gets religious freedom and who doesn't.

I think it's really ridiculous that President Obama -- you know, we've been talk about it later he's going to do that with immigration, too. I mean, what --

BECKEL: What president doesn't use executive action --

PERINO: Well, I think a lot of presidents do, but I do think there is a responsibility on behalf of the executive whoever it is in office to craft executive actions that can actually hold up in court.


PERINO: And when they do not, to accept that and say, OK, we disagree with the ruling but we accept it because the Supreme Court has spoken.
Kimberly, I want to get your take on the other thing. The last day of a Supreme Court session is always a fire drill for the White House, because there are a lot of decisions.

Before we go I want to touch base on this other one, which is a Supreme Court again ruling 5-4 about public sector unions. In Illinois -- this is about home health care workers and whether or not they were going to be compelled to have to give a fee to the unions. There are health care workers who say they didn't want, and the unions said, well, we don't have to represent you when we do contracts. The Supreme Court said, we're going to agree with the health care workers. Do I have that right?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, you got it right exactly. I mean, we're just going to send you to the Supreme Court and you hang out with Shannon Bream, who's doing such a good job. She did a great job today.

So, yes, I think this is something that obviously the unions aren't going to be too happy about, in my opinion, you know. But this has been, I think, a number of very consistent rulings coming out of the court in terms of what they have been doing. If you see this as a steady stream here of consistency, because the one off was Obamacare, right?

PERINO: The big one.

GUILFOYLE: That surprised everybody. It was just like shocking.
Nobody kind of really saw that coming.

But with respect to what they did today, I think it was in good keeping with sticking with the Constitution, with really observing the laws and following them. So, that's what I like about it.

BECKEL: So, the home health care workers take advantage of what unions negotiate both in terms of fees and other benefits, and yet they don't have to join the union or pay a fee.

PERINO: Don't pay a fee, right.

BECKEL: So, as far as I'm concerned, if you're a home hearth worker -
- screw you, you go out there and get whatever you can get in the free market.

BOLLING: Or there's no reason to be in the union.

BECKEL: Why ride on the backs of the union? Why ride on the backs --

GUTFELD: They don't want to be in the union.

BECKEL: But they ride on the backs of them.

GUTFELD: They don't want to ride on the backs of anybody. I know that's hard to believe.

BECKEL: They get the same benefits that the union negotiated.

PERINO: Well, I think also because the unions typically about 98 percent, Greg, of the union fees, if they make political donations --

GUTFELD: Go to the Democrats.

PERINO: -- go to Democrats.

GUTFELD: That's why the Dems are upset, because this is how you mug people, and you get the loot and you give it to Democrats. That's all it's about. It would be awesome to be a Democrat. Nobody wants to give you money. You just take it from them.


BECKEL: Let the rest of them go to work for themselves.

GUTFELD: That's what everybody's wanted.

BECKEL: OK, don't ask for the same benefits the unions get.

GUILFOYLE: Why aren't they entitled?

BECKEL: If they negotiated, fine.

BOLLING: Bob, you want to let the unions play their union game -- knock yourself out. But then start taxing them because they have no reason to be tax-exempt under 501 4, but they get the 501c4 tax exemption and meanwhile, they're --

BECKEL: And meanwhile, they are political groups. They are -- 98 percent, 96 whatever percent, is going to the Democratic Party. That is a
-- that's more of a super PAC than unions.

GUILFOYLE: Well, maybe people don't be subjected --

BOLLING: Then don't join the union if you don't want to do that. But don't ride on their backs to take their benefits.

GUILFOYLE: But, Bob, why are they not equally entitled to get good benefits as workers?

BECKEL: Because they don't sit on the table and negotiated, that's why.

GUILFOYLE: My point is unless you subject yourself to the union shakedown, then you're not entitled to good benefits and good wage?


BECKEL: You're on your own and negotiated.

GUILFOYLE: No. That's a bully tactic.

BOLLING: (INAUDIBLE) saying if you're not participating in the economy like paying your tax, part of spending in government, then you shouldn't get government services.

BECKEL: No. I just say -- if you're not willing to join collectively to negotiate your benefits and your salary --

BOLLING: And not willing to pay.

BECKEL: Then go do it yourself. Do it in your living room.


GUTFELD: And the union is really amenable to people not being in their union. They are so nice about that.

PERINO: Well, if you're not in the union, then you have to pay the fee which also goes to the union.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: OK. The Supreme Court always interesting and --

GUTFELD: Not really.

PERINO: -- the last stop on the line. I think it's extremely interesting and you -- we appreciated (ph) your participation.


PERINO: OK. Some breaking news today overseas as well. The Israeli military has found the bodies of three missing teens more than two weeks after they were abducted in the West Bank. Israel blamed Hamas for this disappearance. "SPECIAL REPORT" will have more information on that story at 6:00 p.m.

Up next on "The Five," President Obama broke his silence on immigration reform this afternoon. He says he will once again go around Congress when "The Five" returns.


GUILFOYLE: President Obama took to the Rose Garden this afternoon to inform the public he's ready to act alone on immigration reform.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, I'm beginning a new effort to fix as much of our immigration system as I can on my own, without congress. As a first step, I'm directing the secretary of homeland security and the attorney general to move available and appropriate resources from our interior to the border. I've also directed Secretary Johnson and Attorney General Holder to identify additional actions my administration can take on our own within my existing legal authorities to do what Congress refuses to do and fix as much of our immigration system as we can. If Congress will not do their job, at least we can do ours.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, this latest move comes less than a week after the Supreme Court slapped down the president for overstepping his executive authority.

Speaker John Boehner released a statement in response to Obama's announcement saying he won't help the president move forward with immigration reform because, quote, "the American people and their elected officials don't trust him to enforce the law as written."

So, once again, we have the president calling on my favorite person on the planet, Eric Holder, to help him. Tell me what I can do. Tell me -- and he said specifically -- to act within the law, within his authority.
Now keep in mind, this is in the wake of a brushback from the Supreme Court saying listen you're confusing the whole separation of powers and what Congress does and what the president should do, and you can't overreach or overstep repeatedly like this.

PERINO: So, when I watched the president today I saw something different. It was not stilted. I thought he was passionate and from the heart.

Now, a lot of the things he said, I said, well, wait, those won't bear out after you re-read the speech and all of this sinks in. But for a presidential statement, the only thing I wouldn't have done is have Joe Biden there, because I liked that the president was not on the teleprompter and telling it like it is as he sees it.

I do think there's a couple of things that he can do. In 2007, when President Bush wanted to do comprehensive immigration reform, the one thing that he said that he could do from his standpoint was to send some of the National Guard down the border to try to enforce some things.

I think that President Obama did not go that far today, but the Department of Homeland Security might end up asking for that because what the president failed to talk about today is the specific tragedy and the urgency at the situation that is on the border right now, that is a direct result of inaction and also some action on his behalf of suggesting to people that if they came over they were going to be OK.

What I don't like about this I believe that the president, if he goes forward with executive action, it will not be strong enough. It will not be good enough. And we will continue in this realm of uncertainty, which is not fair to citizens or to our businesses and the economy.

And it's not fair to the immigrants either because they will continue to live with the uncertainty that he says that he cares about.

GUILFOYLE: Well, you know, I think we're going to end the block, let's go to break.

Anyone else -- Bob is taking a nap. Bolling?

BECKEL: No, I'm not taking a nap. First of all, brushback that you're talking about was one of the narrowest of executive orders. Three day set of recess, so that you can't compare that to this.

PERINO: We're just talking about Hobby Lobby today.


PERINO: We're talking about Hobby Lobby and the union one.

BECKEL: I thought you were talking about the one where the court ruled 9-0 he couldn't make his appointment.

PERINO: No, on the executive, OK.

BECKEL: But, you know, here's a situation where you got thousands and thousands of children who are fleeing from the highest murder capital rates in the world, or at least in the Western Hemisphere. They are here. They are here because I think their parents are trying to make them safe. We have a responsibility as citizens and as human beings to take care of them.

And the idea of taking these children and putting them back in El Salvador where they can get shot and bludgeoned and raped is absolutely obscene.

GUILFOYLE: Ay ay ay.


GUILFOYLE: No one is suggesting that. You just make it sound so barbaric. That's not the situation. Let's just think about it and do something.

BECKEL: I heard Republicans say that we ought to send them back.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, there's one over here. Let's talk to the guy in the center.

BECKEL: Because it's the law, it's the rule of law. So, Supreme Court says, hey, Obama cut the crap with the executive pen and a week later, he comes back and he says, I'm going to subvert Congress, $2 billion of resources and then Bob is hitting on something very important right here.

That -- here's what the left wants to do, President Obama wants to do and the left wants to do. They want to declare these illegal immigrants refugees, want to give them refugee status, which means they want to say that they are fleeing from their home country for some religious or government persecution -- what?

BECKEL: That's how most El Salvadorans got into this country under Ronald Reagan.

BOLLING: But my point is you can't call all this -- you might as well call 12 million people refugees now, because once you do that, they'll be more will come over and saying, say here's my parents, too, here's my family, too, they're refugees, too. It's not just for kids. You're opening up the floodgates.

GUILFOYLE: It's never ending. That's the problem. It's cyclical.

I want to get your thoughts on this real quick and then I want to move to the caliphate that's developed in a matter --

GUTFELD: Well, I can help transition into the caliphate.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you.

GUTFELD: First of all, this isn't about immigration. It's about borders. President Obama wants to take in borders rather than enforce borders. That's the problem.

And so, what is happening is, as we were about to talk about the caliphate, that is intimately connected to our border. Terror seeks the path of least resistance, the hole in the fence. The hole in the fence at
9/11 were the passports. In this case, it literally is a hole in the fence, which we need to close.

If President Obama wants open borders and he wants to retreat from the world stage and he wants to end spy programs, you might as well hand the suicide vest out at our border because you're making it incredibly easy for the people that flew into our buildings to just walk in and blow us up.

GUILFOYLE: We need to play. That's the point. So, let's -- this is the other imminent threat to the United States, the Islamic extremists --

BECKEL: So, let's get straight -- children coming over here is opening the door for a bunch of people to bomb like 9/11.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

BECKEL: God Almighty, please?


GUTFELD: To accuse people who are worried about national security to hate kids. I don't hate kids. Well, yes I do hate kids, but I hate American kids.

But the fact is just because we want to have a safe border doesn't mean we want all these children to suffer. We just want a process. We want a process where we feel safe and then orderly immigration. We're all for that.

We're for orderly immigration. Not illegal immigration. There's a distinction, Bob.

BECKEL: There is a distinction, you're right. And I just want to be sure that if we get -- look at the record and find out what Republicans said when Ronald Reagan let El Salvadorans come in here en masse.

PERINO: Well, I think that is worth looking at, but I also think that looking at changes -- the country's changed and developed, right? That's what you always want to look at the new context and have a living Constitution and change that.

I think that there might have been -- there were a lot of merits for that in 1988. I also think the problem is that President Obama today is talking about executive action that would deal not with the urgency situation and the triage, the executive action he's talking is a bigger comprehensive bill, which is what John Boehner said, that's what we don't trust you on because they don't have reason to trust him.

BECKEL: Why don't they pass a bill, I wonder?

PERINO: Why doesn't Harry Reid call the bills that House has passed?

BECKEL: Well, I mean, there seem to me to be somewhat general agreement on immigration reform. Why not bring -- seriously, I'm not fighting this. I was wondering why don't we bring it up?

PERINO: Make them vote. So, that's what the president is saying, have an up-or-down vote.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, that was interesting discussion. That's what we do here on "The Five." We take it where the conversation leads us.

Tomorrow, we're going to discuss more about Iraq and ISIS, which as you know has seized much of northern Syria, declaring a caliphate.
Fascinating story how quickly this has evolved in a matter of weeks.

Coming up, conservative Internet icon Matt Drudge gives a rare interview. He thinks the news business has gotten a little psychotic and a whole lot more.

And later, Megyn Kelly is going to join us on set to preview her exclusive interview tonight with Bill Ayers. Back in a moment.


BOLLING: The Drudge Report is a massively popular news aggregating website. It has such a reach it actually shapes the debate from politics to popular culture. Conservative media and politicians use Drudge to form their own opinions. The liberal posse uses Drudge to put a face on their enemy, the conservative voice.

Founder and editor Matt Drudge spent a few minutes with his hometown radio station, WTOP in D.C. Here's a rare and brief look into the mind of the man who has the pulse of America at his keyboard, just a few strokes away. Drudge on Drudge.


MATT DRUDGE, FOUNDER/EDITOR, THE DRUDGE REPORT: I go where the heat is. I'm a heat-seeking missile. I will go where the action is, sometimes before it's cool to do it. That's why I get in trouble. You know, I make waves; I don't surf them, as I used to say.

It's a little psychotic right now, the news business, because everybody is doing everything. But that still doesn't mean there are not important events. There's information coming all of the time. This is a vibrant era of media. It's not going away any time soon


BOLLING: So Bob, let me start with you. Matt Drudge clearly one of the most popular websites on the planet. Liberals must get -- must be shaking in their boots when they see their name with a red siren circling around them.

BECKEL: Well, you can't -- I mean, you can't deny what this guy has done. I mean, he was the first one out. He's done -- he has an enormous following. And he's got -- he really set the tone for everybody else to come along. So I don't -- I mean, I don't begrudge Drudge.

PERINO: I like it.

BECKEL: I don't begrudge Drudge. But I think his point about sensing something was going to happen, is I also have that feeling about it, as well, and he sort of points to the border. And I think that that's -- he may be right about that. This may be a much bigger issue by the time the summer is over.

BOLLING: We'll get that in a second. Dana, when you were in the White House, the siren.

PERINO: I like that story.

GUILFOYLE: Tell the story.

PERINO: When you're in the press office or anywhere within the White House, you like -- even if you don't like it, you have to go to the Drudge Report, because if there's a siren and your name is attached to it, you know your day has just changed dramatically, often not for the better.

He has -- Drudge has hilariously clever and biting headlines. And then you can go there over and over again all day long, like I used to do in England, during -- with dial-up permanent service that I didn't know about. I admit it: I am a Drudge addict.

BOLLING: Yes, I am, too.

PERINO: Drudge, it does drive the news.

BOLLING: Not only the headlines. But the pictures. Drudge finds the most -- the absolute perfect picture to the story, where you go wow. The pictures tell the story.

GUTFELD: But sometimes, you know, it is -- it can be misleading click bait. I remember I clicked on the red siren, and it was actually a sale on red sirens. That just angered me so much.

The most vital people in society are the people that are demonized by academia, the mainstream media, and Hollywood. They just hate it because he somehow pole-vaulted over this wall of interference that we all face to directly reach common people and the media at the same time.

Do you know what he did for a living before this?

PERINO: I don't remember.

GUTFELD: Nobody does. He worked at a gift shop. He worked at the CBS gift shop.

PERINO: Spencer Gifts?

GUTFELD: No, CBS gift shop. This guy is such a recluse he makes Greta Garbo look like an extrovert.

BECKEL: His own -- is there any original content? I don't -- I'm just asking.

PERINO: Every once in a while, very rarely, they might do a short editorial.

GUTFELD: And it's the ugliest website ever made.

GUILFOYLE: Because it's so simple.

BOLLING: Between the headlines, the siren, the pictures and the placement of the story...

PERINO: Right.

GUILFOYLE: You know you're having a bad day when one of our divorces is on there. That happened to me.


BECKEL: ... they have a blog for that.

BOLLING: The left also has to tune into Drudge.

GUILFOYLE: Everybody has to. It's like it's appointment viewing.
Just put your screen right in front. And this is what I love about it. It actually educates people, OK. Because instead of people wondering what's going on today, they can go there and get it all and actually speak intelligently and understand what's going on in the political landscape.

I like it. I think it's very informative. It's -- I love the way he aggregates the stories. And it's interesting. You feel you're in Washington. Even if you're not on the Hill, you feel like you're there.

PERINO: It's one stop shopping.

BECKEL: I think I've turned Drudge on exactly two times.

BOLLING: You know what, Bobby? Ten billion visitors over the last year. Phenomenal success.

Still ahead, comedian Chris Rock did a whole racial skit mocking white people last night at the BET Awards. Would that kind of humor, racial humor fly in reverse? Next on "The Five."


GUTFELD: So the Black Entertainment Awards aired last night. I'm sure you caught our live coverage. One highlight, a black comedian named Chris Rock -- I hear he's an up-and-comer. I'm not sure -- interviews Caucasians at a monster truck rally about their knowledge of the awards.
It was like shooting whales in an above-ground pool.


CHRIS ROCK, COMEDIAN: Welcome to the BET Awards. Yes!

What's your favorite show on BET?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would help if I knew what BET was.

ROCK: Well, BET is Black Entertainment Television.

Do you think Macklemore should win a BET award?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it's Black Entertainment Television, so I don't know if he can be nominated.

ROCK: I'm going to pop some...


GUTFELD: Pretty easy to do, but also truthful and funny. But I know what you're thinking: if you did the opposite you'd be vilified.

What if Jeff Dunham went to the BETs and asked about NASCAR, or Jeff Foxworthy asked about "Duck Dynasty" or I showed up to ask about Nickelback. I never would. Who knows? The fact is, it's called Black Entertainment Television, which tells you what is it and who it's for.

There is no White Entertainment Television, because frankly that's most of television. But even if it were not called BET, would whites know most of these artists? Probably not, although Lionel Ritchie won an award, and even Dana has danced on that ceiling.

Chris Rock illustrates a simple truth: while there is some overlap, we like different things; different things that look and sound like us. Well, unless they don't; then we like them even more.


ROCK: Have you ever dated a black woman?


ROCK: Have you tried to date a black woman?


ROCK: What do they tell you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn't say much. She basically just walked off.

ROCK: You only tried it once.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was afraid after that. She was scary.

ROCK: I'm afraid of black women, too.


GUTFELD: Ah, unity. See, laughing at things that make us different is way better than crying about it. Besides, that's what white liberal entertainment television is for; otherwise known as MSNBC.

So I want to -- I want to just throw this out there. What did everybody think of the BET Awards last night? Just go around the table.
What did you think of it?

PERINO: I missed it. You make a good point. I didn't even know they were on until I heard you were doing a monolog about it -- Bob.

BECKEL: I was with a black woman. I don't know what everybody else was doing.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: That actually was an honest answer.

GUILFOYLE: Nineteen minutes left in the show.

BECKEL: It's true. I was.

GUTFELD: You know, Kimberly, Chris Brown joined Lil Wayne to perform "Loyal." That was the surprise of the evening, don't you think?

GUILFOYLE: Obviously, I didn't see it. OK. Call me out. I was too busy producing the Puerto Rican Entertainment Awards, also known as my apartment. Do you want a front-row seat?

GUTFELD: I don't know.

All right.


GUILFOYLE: Bolling is holding his head down like this.

GUTFELD: August Alsina performed his new single with Brown and Trey Songz, "Kissin' on My Tattoos." I know you told me you were looking forward to that.


GUILFOYLE: You know Macklemore.

BOLLING: I do. I do know Macklemore.

Look -- look, it's funny. Right? It's comedy. It's funny. I'm all for it. I don't feel bad about that. I just wish that the other side would feel the same way if someone else did it in reverse.

GUILFOYLE: I like it. I'm with you. I like it.

BECKEL: I can't imagine a white comedian trying to pull that off at the Black Entertainment Television Awards.

BOLLING: If it were funny, would that be OK?

BECKEL: Well, it would be funny -- look. Just face the fact that we're different cultures. They've got -- they like it -- and we've got things that we like, and I only crossed on certain things.

PERINO: That's what I love about America, that we can actually laugh about our vulnerabilities, and it's funny. Like you can't do that anywhere else in the world. You cannot have this funny conversation and laugh about it.

GUTFELD: It's changing, though. There are many people who...

PERINO: Not on this show.

GUTFELD: ... who do not find things as funny as we do.

All right. Next up, Megyn Kelly -- not sure who that is -- is going to join us and tell us what it's like to interview unrepentant domestic terrorist Bill Ayers. Her full interview airs tonight. Megyn's going to be here in a minute.


BECKEL: Finally, a song I know.

There's a big interview tonight on "The Kelly File." We played you a sneak peek of it on Friday, and we've got another clip for you now. Here's part of Megyn's exclusive sit-down with former Weather Underground leader Bill Ayers.


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You realize people could have been hurt. You admitted that in an interview.

BILL AYERS, FORMER WEATHER UNDERGROUND ACTIVIST: They could have been, but thank God they weren't. And we made every attempt not to, and they weren't.

KELLY: Do you appreciate the recklessness of that?

AYERS: I don't say it wasn't reckless.

KELLY: Who are you to potentially endanger the lives of those individuals that were in or around the building?

AYERS: And I don't say it wasn't illegal. It was illegal. We crossed lines of legality.

KELLY: It's not about legality. It's so much bigger than that.

AYERS: We crossed lines of legality.

KELLY: You could have murdered somebody with those bombs.

AYERS: And we didn't. But actually, the people who were conducting the war in Vietnam did actually murder people.

KELLY: And so the answer is then to make yourself a murderer, as well.


BECKEL: The host of "The Kelly File" is here with us now to tell us what else we can expect. Megyn, welcome to "The Five."

KELLY: Thanks, Bob.

BECKEL: Why did Bill Ayers pick out your show on the FOX network to do his first interview? I don't get that.

KELLY: He clearly had not done a Google search of Megyn Kelly.

GUTFELD: It really bombed.

KELLY: Bah-dum-bump. You know what? We invited him on to come on with Dinesh D'Souza for a July 4th special that we're going to air on "The Kelly File" about Dinesh's new movie. And in that movie, Dinesh interviews all sorts of folks on the left about their ideology about America, and he and Ayers had had a debate at Dartmouth College not long ago. And I thought it was interesting. I watched the whole thing. Late in my office one night, I'm sitting there watching that, which is why I have no life.

In any event, I thought why don't we ask him? Let's ask him if he'll come on and debate Dinesh and talk to me about his own past, and he said yes.

BECKEL: What happened to Dinesh?

KELLY: He sat out that segment.

GUILFOYLE: You took his place.

KELLY: It was interesting because, listen, we've done a lot of interviews so far, but as I was saying before we got started, that is the first one where 30 minutes straight no one on the team interrupted me.
Everyone just watched. You could hear a pin drop in that studio.

And when it was over the word was riveting, because how often do you hear a guy who bombed America, repeatedly, sit and be held to account?

And here's the thing. When I looked into Bill Ayers -- and I have to give credit to my team, because we spent weeks preparing for this, getting all the brand-new information and everything he ever did. All of his books and all of the books about him, that was the key.

Because Ayers is very quick to accept responsibility for the stuff he wants to admit he did, right? Property damage, as he says. He bombed the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon, the New York City police headquarters, the list goes on and on. That's all fine, because no one was hurt.

But there's other information about times people were hurt and even murdered by people affiliated with his group and that we had some real tense exchanges.

GUTFELD: Didn't you want to jerk that earring out of his ear and feed it to him the wrong way?


KELLY: I did it with my words.

GUILFOYLE: That's why you're better than I am.

PERINO: Most people, when you -- when you're a public speaker like he is, even if he is reluctant in some ways, you usually have a goal when you go into an interview. Like you want to accomplish something. You want to sell something. You want to explain something. What -- what do you think he's trying to prove?

KELLY: Nothing. I think he wanted to have the intellectual debate about America that we had between Ayers and D'Souza, which will air on the July 4 special. And he doesn't really have a lot of problem talking about his past. He's written two books about it.

However, this is the first time, certainly, he's been held to account in this way. I mean, I read all of his interviews in print. I watched all of the ones he did in sit-down fashion. And no one has ever -- the problem with interviewing Bill Ayers is he's smart and he's very philosophical.
And he has spent 40-plus years talking about what he did. So he's an expert at defending his actions.

But no one -- so I went at it sort of as a lawyer/journalist, and I just took him through point by point. I didn't need to have a philosophical debate with this -- with him about this. The actions speak for themselves.

Let's go through and let's go through the proof and let's go through the allegations, the things he admitted that we found that he had forgotten he admitted back in the '70s that I showed to him in some explosive exchanges.

BOLLING: Megyn, did you get into -- and this is what I would love to see -- did you get into his relationship with Barack Obama?

KELLY: Of course. Yes. I had to ask about that.

BOLLING: Where was that? Because Barack Obama, when he ran for president, kind of distanced himself from Bill Ayers and now we found out...


BOLLING: But apparently we find out since then that there was a lot more relation -- there was a lot more boards they served on...

GUILFOYLE: Interaction.

BOLLING: They had a lot of ideology that was similar.

GUTFELD: They got married in Vermont.

BOLLING: Or that. What was -- give us a little take.

KELLY: I will say that the part about Obama, President Obama airs tomorrow night. So I don't want to give too much away, because it's going to air in two parts. Most is tonight but some for tomorrow. And so I asked him what the relationship was like, how close they were. And I also asked him whether President Obama has ever contacted him since George Stephanopoulos infamously -- well, you have to tune in tomorrow.

GUILFOYLE: I have a question for you. Just the fact that, to me, when I see a guy like that and, you know, his crude bombs that he made, how is he even any different? How does he distinguish himself from, like, the Tsarnaev brothers with their pressure cookers? To me, they are one and the same.

KELLY: I specifically asked him questions along those lines. And the more he tried to justify them, Kimberly, and you'll see this part tonight.
I told him specifically, "You know who you sound like? Osama bin Laden."


KELLY: "You sound like Adolf Hitler trying to justify..."

GUILFOYLE: Was he...


KELLY: Yes, he does. Trying to justify the means by pointing to the ends. His whole thing is 6,000 people a week were being murdered in Vietnam, "and everything I did, I did to call attention to that."

BECKEL: OK. We want to thank you, Megyn, for coming on and joining us. Also everybody decide what the definition of friendship is when you watch Megyn tomorrow talking about the relationship with Barack Obama. And we'll catch your full interview tonight with Bill Ayers at 9 p.m. Eastern.

"One More Thing" is up next.

KELLY: Thanks.


PERINO: Time now for "One More Thing." Greg is next.

GUTFELD: It's time -- I haven't banned a phrase in a while. "Leaving that aside." You know when you ask a question, and somebody says "leaving that aside," that translate into "what I'm about to say next has absolutely nothing to do with your question, because I actually don't have an answer."

PERINO: I like that.

GUTFELD: Banned. Don't use it or I will come and kill you.

PERINO: OK. Leaving that aside, Eric you're next.

BOLLING: OK, so I got a letter today. I just want to do this right.
I got this from a border agent, Tom. Former border agent, Tom. "Just wanted to thank you again for sticking up for American values. Stay the course. You have an immensely strong backing out there." He said, "If D.C. would just let us do our job, the borders would be stronger and better."

GUILFOYLE: That's actually a very nice hat.

BOLLING: Love this hat.

GUILFOYLE: Nice fit. I mean, I thought we had budget problems. It's gorgeous.

PERINO: Kimberly. Please amaze us with your "One More Thing" now.

GUILFOYLE: You mean how Greg amazes us with his banned phrases?

GUTFELD: I think you're being sarcastic.

GUILFOYLE: You know banned phrases? So Pippa Middleton, look at that beauty, huh? At the wedding the whole big buzz became Pippa and her cute little bum. Do you like it now?

GUTFELD: We're in America.

GUILFOYLE: I don't care.

GUTFELD: We don't have royalty.

GUILFOYLE: We're allies.

GUTFELD: Our loyalty is to the Kardashians.

GUILFOYLE: Can we go to the sound please?


PIPPA MIDDLETON, KATE MIDDLETON'S SISTER: It was completely unexpected. You know, I think the gown was not really fit to be a significant dress; really just to sort of blend in within the train. And I found it flattering. The dress was almost meant to be insignificant.


GUTFELD: Oh, Pippa.

GUILFOYLE: They are mocking my Pippa. We have a Pippa here, too.
She's a little (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

All right. So, here's the deal. Do you like royalty watching? Why not.

GUTFELD: I like George Brett.

PERINO: Bob, you're next. Save us.

BECKEL: Well, Pennsylvania had another gun show, and the guy who ran it was Jeffrey Hawk, 44. And this is one of the National Rifle Association's great ideas, to keep these gun shows operating. Nobody has to have any backup to buy a gun there. A lot of these illegal guns get through there. So what happens Mr. Hawk, rather, was showing a woman how to use a concealed weapon, and he shot her. He just got indicted. Good thing. NRA, you probably want to...

GUTFELD: Feel safer at a gun show than -- safer at a gun show than at a movie theater. Feel safer at a gun show than on streets of Santa Barbara.


BOLLING: ... in a gun show. Yes, you do.

BECKEL: That's right. Sign up for the NRA.

GUILFOYLE: Run for the border.

PERINO: I had a great "One More Thing." I'm going to try to rush through it. Check out the "Economist" cover story this week. It's about universities and how they need to totally reinvigorate themselves, change a lot of things; too expensive and not doing a good enough job.

Very good article. And also check out the online school called Open English, 100,000 students all studying English in the Spanish world online.
OK. It's time for "One More Thing." No, it's not. It's Monday.

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