Sen. Kennedy slams Pelosi for holding up COVID relief agreement

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Sen. Kennedy slams Pelosi for holding up COVID relief agreement

Louisiana Republican tells 'Your World' more aid legislation unlikely before election

This is a rush transcript from “Your World” October 21, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. I'm Neil Cavuto. And this is YOUR WORLD.

And following a whirlwind of developments not only on vaccines and potential remedies, but concerns with the virus itself, which, for three days running now in this country has been seeing a spike in cases of more than 60,000 over the last 72 hours per day, on average.

Now, the concern about that is somewhat mitigated by what's going on in Europe, where they're literally shutting down portions of France, and you have got curfews in effect in Ireland, where shutdowns are being reimplemented amid the spike in cases there, bars and restaurants in a good part of the United Kingdom also being shuttered, in the face of spikes that are much more severe on a percentage basis than what's going on in this country.

But, again, an optimistic tone sounded by the CDC and the health and human services sector secretary, Alex Azar, hinting of potential remedies, maybe on a limited basis, by the end of this year.

They also outlined an aggressive rollout of vaccines in the early part of next year. They have committed billions of dollars to this effort, particularly with AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson, that could put them in many more than 100 million hands in the early part of next year.

Again, the numbers and sort of the data is still a little dicey on this.

But they're optimistic something could be had, and soon.

The read on all of this from Dr. Bob Lahita of St. Joseph University. He's the hospital chairman of medicine there.

Doctor, what do you think of what they're stating here? They're not limiting what or minimizing the threat that remains, warning people, continue wearing marks, do all the proper things, wash your hands, something that you have been saying on and on.

But they're hopeful, they're hopeful that something could be coming down the pike, even in a limited use, in emergency use, by the end of the year.

Do you think that's true?

DR. BOB LAHITA, ST. JOSEPH UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL:  I do think that's possible, Neil.

I'm actually very happy to hear the CDC speak. They're speaking to science, which is what we should be using to guide ourselves in this dilemma.

People are fatigued. They're tired. My patients here that I have been seeing are exhausted. They're tired of washing their hands and wearing masks and keeping socially distant.

But you know what? The good news is, there's light at the end of the tunnel. I'm really excited about what I just heard from Dr. Redfield and the secretary about our vaccine.

And I said it was going to be available hopefully by Christmas, it'd be our big Christmas gift, but maybe a little bit after. But, nevertheless, the first part of 2021, we're all going to line up and get our injections. I'm excited, Neil.

CAVUTO:  All right, now, this AstraZeneca news, Doctor -- and I -- there was a volunteer. They -- I know they have got tens of thousands of this test, of course, a worldwide test, but this is principally in Brazil, a gentleman -- we're told, at least, a gentleman who died.

We're later told -- and this is a Bloomberg report -- that that person was not taking the drug. So, it could have been placebo or something else.

Do you know anything about it? Because trials were not interrupted. Studies continue going on. Normally, when they do something like that, they're not alarmed. What do you make of it?

LAHITA:  Right. Yes.

That's obvious. So, look, you have some -- up to 50,000 or more people being injected with a vaccine or placebo. And when you have such a large number of people, you're going to have people die, just as you do in a city or town that's got 50,000 people. There are going to be so many deaths per day.

So these kinds of deaths are not terribly alarming, provided they're not associated with some side effect of the vaccine. That's number one.

Number two, the fact that they're looking very carefully at everybody who succumbs from something like, say, heart disease or that catches a case of pneumonia that has nothing to do with the vaccine, that's good news.

Everybody is watching. And we have that case, remember, the AstraZeneca case in the U.K., which was a demyelinating condition, which, again, is expected in a certain number of people when you have such a huge phase three clinical trial -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Right.

And that was a separate incident, to your point.

Doctor, also, you mentioned the U.K. The top scientific adviser there was saying that a vaccine will not eradicate a likely pandemic, in other words, that it won't be a magic bullet. That's the way I interpreted it.

What did you make of that?

LAHITA:  Well, it's not a magic bullet because it's not treating the infection. It's preventing the infection.

The vaccine, remember, will contribute greatly to the establishment of herd immunity. We have heard about -- we have heard about herd immunity since I have been talking about this pandemic. And herd immunity can only be achieved in two ways, massive infection, which is a disaster because of the number of deaths involved, or, secondly, the presence of a vaccine.

So, yes, they're -- it's not going to cure the -- it's not going to cure the infection in those who already have it. But it is going to prevent the infection and those who do not have it and those who are at risk.

And people are fatigued. They want to stop wearing masks, et cetera. This is good news, meaning that you have to keep wearing your mask and washing your hands. Things are going to get better as we go forward. And it's going to happen fast.

CAVUTO:  All right, I always like that. And I have always enjoyed your optimism, tempered with some prudence and caution. And I think we need that, Doctor.

And you're not the kind of doctor, at least when you see people, tell them to lose weight, maybe because I'm on remote with you right now.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO:  But, Doctor, always good seeing you, my friend. Thank you. Thank you again, Dr. Lahita.

The guy's a genius, just a genius.

By the way, we're talking about the virus and all of that. Well, there's a lot of stimulus, as you know, that's been addressed around this and a back- and-forth on a new effort right now to secure relief that goes on again, off again. But it looks very much on again, at least in the House.

We're told that the talks that Speaker Pelosi had today with Treasury Secretary Mnuchin on this relief -- quote -- "brings us closer to being able to put pen to paper to write legislation."

That is from the spokesman for Nancy Pelosi. But even if they solve differences there, there's still the matter the United States Senate and where things go there.

Later on, we're going to be talking to Louisiana Senator John Kennedy on the uphill fight likely there, but first to Gillian Turner on this back- and-forth and where it is going.

Hey, Gillian.

GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Hi. Good afternoon to you, Neil.

So, there is a lot of hope, but not a whole lot of chance, this afternoon for additional coronavirus relief. The big question now is really whether any money at all may ultimately make it into the pockets of the millions of Americans who are relying on additional stimulus in order to bridge the gap between now and then whenever the pandemic eventually begins to abate.

Now, the White House is insisting today there is still action, Chief of Staff Mark Meadows emphasizing all the busywork that's going on behind the scenes. He says they're at $1.9 trillion. But we also know that they were in that neighborhood two weeks ago. He told Bill Hemmer last hour that the president is -- quote -- "willing to lean into this."

Now, the White House negotiating team is blaming Speaker Nancy Pelosi. They say she is trying to wait out President Trump. She's unwilling perhaps to hand him a deliverable before November 3. The path to a deal, though, in reality, we know is choked up on the Senate side as well. Republicans there are balking at the finger floated by President Trump himself.

He insists he's got the sway to get Majority Leader McConnell on board with whatever final number his team hammers out with the Democrats. This is something Nancy Pelosi herself said this morning.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA):  I wouldn't even be having these discussions if we didn't think the president had some sway as to whether the Senate would take this legislation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TURNER:  This relief fair game for the debate tomorrow. We are expecting it to be a big topic.

Until then, Neil, it looks like both sides are going to continue to try and emphasize just how busy they are -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Gillian, I'm curious.

Has the president intervened to the extent with the Senate? Because he's repeatedly said, and as you brilliantly reported, go big or go home. And he obviously likes the progress being seen in the House, probably not a fan of the pushback from the Senate.

But has he pushed any senators, or Mitch McConnell himself, look, I thought I was clear, go big, go big?

TURNER:  Well, we do know that the White House legislative affairs team -- that's the team that manages Congress on behalf of the president to push through his policy agenda when it comes to legislation on the Hill -- they have been working the phones big time, we know, with Senator McConnell's office, we know with Graham's office as well.

I don't know, Neil, actually, whether the president himself has picked up the phone today. I have not seen any reporting that he has. But I will look into that and get back to you.

The ground truth here, though, is that he's at odds, right, with the rest of...

CAVUTO:  Yes.

TURNER:  ... or a big swathe of the Republican Congress -- Republican senators on this number.

CAVUTO:  Yes.

TURNER:  We're now back to where we were, essentially, two weeks ago.

CAVUTO:  Right. They're not quite all on the same page.

Thank you, Gillian, for that. I didn't mean to throw a curveball at you there.

I want to go to Senator John Kennedy right now, Republican of Louisiana.

Senator, has the president ever called you or said, I hope we can do in the Senate what they're doing in the House, that's more to my liking, not what you guys are doing?

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA):  The president has not called me.

I can just give you my perspective, Neil, on this whole thing. I do not believe that there will be another coronavirus bill before the election, maybe not even this Congress, for three reasons.

Number one, Speaker Pelosi does not want a bill. Number two, Speaker Pelosi does not want a bill. And, number three, Speaker Pelosi does not want a bill.

Now, I understand that she says...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO:  So, what is she doing now?

If she doesn't want a bill, I mean, and she has all these talks with Mnuchin, I mean, what's the real deal?

KENNEDY:  Well, if I could finish my thought, I understand that she says otherwise.

And certain members of the press parrot everything she says. They suck it up like a Hoover Deluxe. But she doesn't want a bill.

And if you think otherwise, all you have to do is look at her interview with Wolf Blitzer on another network. You know as well as I do that people in Washington have to be judged by what they do, not by what they say.

Why doesn't she want another bill? I can only give you my opinion. She thinks it will help President Trump. She does not like President Trump. She is angry at President Trump.

You can only be young once, but you can always be immature. I would like to see the speaker put aside her -- her feelings, fill out a hurt feelings report, and let us pass another bill to try to help the American people.

We tried again today.

CAVUTO:  All right, by that definition, Senator, by that definition, then, if Steve Mnuchin, who is a fairly smart man, the Treasury secretary of the United States, continues to talk to her, exchange ideas with her, is he being duped?

KENNEDY:  Yes, I think so.

CAVUTO:  So, if you were to -- if you were Treasury Secretary Mnuchin, would you stop it? Would you say, no more talks, let's give it a rest?

KENNEDY:  I think -- I think that Steven and Mark, Chief Meadows and Secretary Mnuchin, both of whom are exercising the patience of Job, are doing their very best to keep these talks alive.

But you -- you -- I mean, the American people are not morons. They have been watching this gamesmanship go on for two months. The speaker doesn't want a deal.

And she doesn't want a deal because she thinks it'll help the president. I wish she would put her personal and political feelings aside. But she's not going to do that.

CAVUTO:  You don't think she's feeling pressure from some of her more moderate members, many of whom, 40-strong, who are in districts the president won handily, at least four years ago, are worried that they have got to have something to show their constituents?

KENNEDY:  Well, I watched the interview that I just alluded to with Mr.

Blitzer on a competing network.

Does Speaker Pelosi in that interview look to you like she cares about what anybody else thinks? She doesn't to me.

CAVUTO:  I don't watch the other -- you know what, Senator? I don't watch the other networks. I only watch this one.

I don't know what it is, other than FOX Business, which, if you don't get, you should demand.

KENNEDY:  I was just -- I was just flipping -- I was just flipping channels.

CAVUTO:  But let me ask you, Senator, let me ask you, in all seriousness, where does this go? Where does this go?

I know. That's fine. It happens.

But let me ask you about where things stand now with the Senate measure.

It's a half-trillion-dollar measure, I mean, obviously, just parliamentarian-wise, the votes certainly not there in a first round.

So, I'm just wondering where this goes. Is there going to be any aid at all, at all, before the election? I think it's safe to say, from what you have been saying, no. Am I right?

KENNEDY:  Well, I hope I'm wrong. But -- and I could lie to you and continue to play the game, but I'm not going to do that.

Let me say it again. Speaker Pelosi...

CAVUTO:  So, we're not going -- we're not going to see a package? In your opinion, we're not going to see aid relief before the election?

KENNEDY:  In my opinion, Speaker Pelosi is not going to agree to anything before the election, because she thinks it'll help the president.

CAVUTO:  All right, Senator Kennedy, thank you very, very much.

KENNEDY:  Thank you.

CAVUTO:  We have called out to Speaker Pelosi's office, as we always do.

Hope springs eternal we will maybe get to the bottom of this and where things stand.

In the meantime, I have a feeling this will come up in tomorrow night's debate, that is, if nobody's mic is cut.

More on that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  You are looking to live in Philadelphia, where former President Obama is at a forum right now on racism, ahead of a rally he will attend on Vice President Joe Biden's part, his first active campaigning for his former number two.

We will have more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, getting ready for the final presidential debate of this incredible campaign year, this incredible year, period, slated for Nashville, Tennessee, tomorrow.

All eyes right now on how that's all going to go down, especially with this notion that they can cut the mics if anyone goes over, starts interrupting.

Kristin Fisher with more on that from Nashville -- Kristin.

KRISTIN FISHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Hey, Neil.

Well, no surprise here, but the two candidates have been taking drastically different approaches to prepare for tomorrow night's debate here in Nashville.

You have got Joe Biden, who has been studying up at his home in Delaware since Sunday night. His campaign has already called a lid, meaning no public movements, until the debate.

And then you compare that to what we're seeing from President Trump. He has been holding rallies almost every single day, multiple campaign events, crisscrossing the country. And that really hasn't stopped since he got the all-clear from his doctors after his bout with COVID.

The virus at the top of the list of topics that the moderator for tomorrow night -- the moderator released for tomorrow night's debate. The Trump campaign has been pushing for more of a focus on foreign policy. But if there is not, the president plans to bring it up anyway.

He will also likely bring up Hunter Biden. He's really been talking about him at almost every single rally. And even though some Republicans, like Mike Huckabee, think it's a distraction, the White House and the Trump campaign disagree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALYSSA FARAH, WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS:  We have got another presidential debate coming up. We hope that Kristen Welker with NBC is going to ask some tough questions of Joe Biden.

But, if she doesn't, the president's ready to pose those questions directly to him, because the American people deserve to know, especially on this Hunter issue.

Was there pay for play? Are there concerns about being beholden to China in some way, one of the U.S.' biggest adversaries or competitors? We need answers to these questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER:  The Biden campaign is saying that it's nothing more -- but the Biden campaign is saying that it's nothing more than a fringe conspiracy theory.

They put out a statement saying: "When Donald Trump obsesses over right- wing fringe conspiracy theories, he merely reinforces what we have said the whole time, that he's forced to run away from his own record, because his pandemic response continues to be a train wreck."

And, Neil, a train wreck is certainly how a lot of people described that first presidential debate, but we will see if that addition of a mute button is able to make any difference -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  Yes, I'm wondering how that goes, the first time that's pulled. I don't know. I don't know, Kristin. We will see.

Kristin Fisher in the middle of all that in Nashville.

Let's ask John Bussey about that.

But, first, let's pull John's mic, just for the hell of it, just see what happens.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO:  John Bussey, of course, Wall Street Journal associate editor, widely respected journalists around the world.

So, John, I don't know how that would go. Whether it's the president of Joe Biden, they're going over a little bit, you yank their mic. That might not go too well.

What do you think?

JOHN BUSSEY, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:  Well, it's just yanking the mic at the very beginning of each of the segments, each of the topic segments.

So, there's 15-minute segments. And the first few minutes of that are going to be opportunities for two-minute comments by each of the candidates. And during that time, the other person's mic will be pulled, will be just be muted, which leaves a lot of time for them to interrupt each other for the remaining portion of that segment.

CAVUTO:  You're right. It might work out.

A lot of criticism of the president from the first debate, not so much for all the interruptions, and that they didn't work for him, but they robbed him of a chance to expose Biden, who had often some clumsy answers, that, if he were allowed to speak, would have illustrated the president's point.

That's what a lot of Republicans are telling him. So, the president might not be so quick to consider interrupting him.

Is that the new dynamic here?

BUSSEY:  Could very well be, Neil.

Look, this is a very important debate for both candidates. It's the last opportunity to appear before an enormous crowd. It ain't over until it's over. Some of these battleground states are pretty close.

CAVUTO:  Right.

BUSSEY:  The expected -- so far, roughly, 40 million people have voted. But that's a fraction of the total vote that's still out there.

The expected vote is -- there are some estimates north of 150 million people are going to vote totally. And so this is a huge opportunity; 73 million people tuned in to the first debate. That's just an enormous audience. And so the president is going to be wanting to make his points.

And perhaps his advisers are going to prevail upon him to really focus on those points, as opposed to necessarily trying to interrupt Mr. Biden, and the other way around too. There was interruptions going both directions.

CAVUTO:  You know, John, even Republicans are urging the president, as angry as he is about the revelation of these Hunter Biden e-mails, The New York Post story, and all the controversy around them, that he doesn't think it's moving the meter, and that the president should focus on the issues that are narrowing, he says, the gap in some of these states, Mike Huckabee, for example, in that camp that says that.

Other Republicans have been telling me the same, that the president has a convincing argument to make. How angry he is over all of this stuff, whether justified or not, he would be wasting time on obsessing over during the debate.

What do you think of that?

BUSSEY:  Well, he's got some pretty good issues to take up with Biden.

Biden's now talking his tax policy. It's going to raise taxes on wealthy households, not raise taxes immediately, at least, on middle-class tax -- households. So he could certainly talk that.

But he will have some headwinds as well in the debate. The topics that have been chosen include COVID and the management or mismanagement of the national response to COVID, families in general, race, climate, national security, and leadership.

So, he's going to face criticism from Biden, certainly, in several of those categories. But the tax issue is front and center now. Biden has put forward his plan.

And you would think that the president would want to focus on that, but I'm sure -- I'm sure he's going to also take an opportunity to comment on the e-mails.

CAVUTO:  You have heard about these various polls about people who would be very leery of putting Trump signs on their lawn or on their car because of just reluctance to be fingered or attacked by others.

And it works into a theme of quiet Trump votes that are not reflected in these polls. Given the fact that some of the battleground states, not all, John, but certainly some, have narrowed a little bit, and that Minnesota could very well be a toss-up, a state that the president barely lost, but could have a chance of winning, what do you think of that, and how that is coming into play?

BUSSEY:  Yes, it's in play, Neil, because, look, there are some people -- a lot of people have made up their mind already. They made up their mind months ago.

But there's always a small portion of the electorate that's busy and doesn't tune into the election until the last couple of weeks. And they figure, look, I'm going to wait until it all settles down after the primaries, after the big speeches, and I'm going to make my decision closer to the election.

Well, that could happen here, too, and probably will happen. And it might be a small percentage of the electorate, but it's likely to be a fairly big number because of so many people turning out.

So, both candidates -- I think that you're seeing this now with President Trump trying to expand or deepen turnout from his base, from his core base, and Vice President Biden attempting to expand his own base, and both of them, both of them are really sort of issuing the charge to their bases to come and vote, get out and vote.

I think you're going to see that in the debate as well, direct camera appeals to voters, one way or another, get to the polls or send in your ballot by mail.

CAVUTO:  All right, John Bussey, we will see what happens.

You did OK. We didn't have to pull your mic. So, touche to you, young man.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSSEY:  Thank you.

CAVUTO:  John Bussey on all of that.

Oh, you got it.

In the meantime, something else is going on tomorrow, besides that big debate.

Earlier in the day, Judge Amy Barrett, they're going to vote on her in the Judiciary Committee. It could be along party lines. Might be some surprises. But she could be well on her way to the next associate justice of the Supreme Court, with a full Senate vote due next week.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right of the big debate tomorrow night, a big accomplishment, and a startlingly fast one, for the United States Senate, when it looks like Amy Barrett could well be on her way to becoming the next Supreme Court associate justice, a vote on her within the Judiciary Committee expected to be largely along party lines, expected to get her out of committee and for a full Senate vote, I believe next Monday.

That's at least the timeline that we have right now.

Chad Pergram following all of this, our congressional correspondent.

Chad, how do things look?

CHAD PERGRAM, FOX NEWS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Amy Coney Barrett returned to Capitol Hill today.

She's meeting with eight Republican senators today on Capitol Hill, including Marco Rubio, the Republican senator from Florida. Rubio has a constitutional amendment to prohibit court-packing. The size of the Supreme Court is set at nine. It's set by statute. It's gone as high as 10. It's gone as low as five, but it's not in the Constitution.

And this is something that Marco Rubio wants to outlaw, any idea of court- packing.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL):  I'm beginning to hear from them about whether they will expand the court and try to pack it. I think we already know the answer. It's our hope that, eventually, we will be able to get a vote.

And maybe, if we can, we will be able to put them -- people will have to be on the record about whether they think it's a good idea to destabilize one of the three branches of government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM:  Now, in order to amend the Constitution, you need a two-thirds vote of both the House and Senate and three-quarters of all the states.

There was a New York Times poll this week showing that less than a third of all likely voters favored expanding the court. Now, here is the timetable to confirm Amy Coney Barrett as the 115th justice on the High Court.

They will jettison her nomination from the Judiciary Committee sometime tomorrow afternoon after 1:00 Eastern time. They will put it on the floor starting on Friday. The Senate will likely be in session on Saturday and Sunday to debate the nomination.

There will be a procedural vote to cut off a filibuster sometime on Sunday afternoon. And then that confirmation vote will likely come on Monday night, probably 8:00 Eastern time, 9:00 Eastern time -- Neil.

CAVUTO:  You're going to be a busy guy tomorrow, right through the debate, right? Explain what you're up to.

PERGRAM:  Absolutely.

Well, Chris Stirewalt and I, we did some live blogging of the first two debates, the V.P. debate and the presidential debate. We're going to be doing that again tomorrow night.

Look at the bottom of your screen here. Scan the Q.R. code and join us for this live blog of the debate with our insights tomorrow night.

CAVUTO:  Two encyclopedias together on that. Look forward to that.

Thank you, my friend very, very much, Chad Pergram, on all of that.

PERGRAM:  Thank you.

CAVUTO:  Well, you just heard a little earlier Senator John Kennedy saying Nancy Pelosi is essentially stringing folks along on this, that she has no intention of cobbling together a deal, no matter how many times she's talked on the phone to the Treasury secretary of the United States.

We're going to weigh this out with Debbie Dingell, the Michigan Democratic congresswoman, what she makes of that -- after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, we had Senator John Kennedy here from Louisiana, not too impressed with the report of progress being made in the House on a stimulus measure that's involved lots of phone calls between Speaker Pelosi and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin.

He all but said that Nancy Pelosi is stringing us along, that she has no interest in getting a deal together. Why should she? It would help the president. She's not interested in that.

I'm sure Michigan Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell might slightly disagree with that.

Congresswoman, very good to have you.

Well, Senator Kennedy, Congresswoman, is not impressed with these overtures, that it -- essentially saying it's a head-fake, that Nancy Pelosi no way in hell is going to get a deal done with Republicans in the House.

What do you think of that?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI):  So, I'm actually going to say to you that I would say -- argue that Senator Kennedy hasn't wanted to deal, and hasn't been somebody that's been working hard to get help to a lot of people across this country that need it.

And I think that a lot of our caucus -- I'm one of them -- have been very clear that we have got a lot of people that need help. You know, we passed the first bill five months ago. We passed the second bill three months ago.

She's stayed at the table. She's talked to him.

The president has sent inconsistent messages about whether he wants a deal or doesn't want to deal. And, last night, when white smoke was coming out, and it looked like they may be close, Mitch McConnell poured water all over it and told the Senate conference yesterday he told the president he didn't want a bill before the election.

I don't think any of us should be playing politics with this. I'm home. I'm careful, masked, distant, but listening to a lot of people scared and who need help. And that's what I think we should all be focused on, not politics, but helping people...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO:  I was mentioning to the -- I was mentioning to the senator, Congresswoman, that there are many of your members -- you're not one of them in a vulnerable district -- but there are many others who are in districts that the president won handily who have been urging the speaker to put something together, because they're anxious.

Should they be anxious? And if something isn't put together, should they be worried?

DINGELL:  Well, you know, I'm -- you know me. I'm blunt.

I think that people don't -- or -- we're all being blamed. People are tired of partisan bickering. There are a lot of people that just need help right now. They're worried about their rent and their mortgage payments, their jobs. And lower-income people have -- 40 percent of them have lost their jobs.

They're worried. We have got a real food insecurity problem. People have a child care issue. They're having a hard time with their kids in school.

They're looking to us to help them. And they really don't care about who's bickering with who. They expect us to do something to help.

CAVUTO:  No, I know you're right about that.

Then, apparently, there were carve-outs or slimmer measures that would have addressed some of the groups you talk about, either those who need unemployment benefits extended through the federal program, those who could use maybe another pandemic federal stimulus check, and it was rejected, I don't know originally by whom.

But, bottom line, both sides had carve-out provisions, both sides walked away, and here we are with no deal.

Are you worried that voters are going to take it out on you guys just as much as the other guys, maybe more?

DINGELL:  I don't -- first of all, I'm one of those people that doesn't believe any polls, as you know.

Four years ago, I was one of the people that predicted, one of the rare people that predicted that Michigan would likely vote for Donald Trump. At this point, I was saying that, totally, that I thought he would win Michigan.

And I think that there are a lot of -- look, I'm blunt. I think a lot of people are just a pox on all of your houses.

But, on the other hand, I'm also going to tell you that people are tired of drama. They are tired of people being pitted against each other. They want to see us come together.

And I think that's more important than anything, Neil. We have got to come together for the sake of a whole lot of people in this nation.

CAVUTO:  But you never do. You know what? You never do. And I'm not here to cast aspersions on you or the Republicans. You never do.

Now, many in your party, Congresswoman, have been arguing that, if Joe Biden...

DINGELL:  Some of us do.

CAVUTO:  ... if Joe Biden gets elected, all that's going to change, people will come together.

Do you really believe that's the case?

DINGELL:  I am going to say this to you.

I know Joe Biden. I have known him since I was a young wife and met him as a friend of my husband's. And he is someone who does work with everybody, does respect everybody.

In my primary this year, I got attacked because I worked with Republicans, I worked across the aisle. You know what? You don't have a good piece of legislation if we can't get a lot of people to support it, to believe in it.

We got to listen to each other. So, yes, I do believe that Joe Biden believes in it, will do it, will try to build coalitions, and try to heal us, instead of constant drama every two minutes.

CAVUTO:  All right, well, I know you are -- I know you're in the House, Congresswoman, so forgive me for asking a question more germane to the United States Senate.

But a lot of your colleagues are very, very angry about the way the whole Amy Barrett nomination is being pursued. She will likely be approved in the Judiciary Committee of the Senate tomorrow, full Senate approval next Monday.

And many of your colleagues are saying:  You know what, we can't let this go. Joe Biden gets in there, we take control of the Senate, we're going to pack the court.

Do you believe that's a good strategy?

DINGELL:  I think that there are a lot of feelings on that, even within both parties.

CAVUTO:  Well, what are yours? What are yours? You're very blunt.

So, yes or no, do you like that idea?

DINGELL:  I am -- it -- I'm a traditionalist.

So, I -- we will have to study it. We have got to -- I never say no to anything. I have changed my mind on issues.

But I am not happy, though, that the Senate is moving so quickly and not -- has had this double standard from what it did four years ago.

CAVUTO:  But you did seem to say, Congresswoman, that you're a traditionalist. I hope I -- I hope I didn't misunderstand you there.

A traditionalist would keep things as they are, nine Supreme Court justices. Is -- in your gut, is that where you err right now? I know you're a congresswoman. And I'm not minimizing that, compared to the Senate, but it would be the Senate that decided something like that.

Do you think that would be risky to do?

DINGELL:  Well, I think that you would changing...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO:  Do you think it would be risky to do?

DINGELL:  I think that we have to really have some hearings and understand what the impact was.

And I think, Neil, that we do need to really, instead of float -- throwing

-- that's a very fundamental change in our third branch of government, and there would need to be a very serious study about what the ramifications were and what it means.

And I think all of us have to do that, all of us. Both parties need to understand what the implications would be.

CAVUTO:  Congresswoman, thank you very, very much, Debbie Dingell, beautiful state of Michigan, a state very much in play.

The president won it by barely 10,000 votes last go-round, tight as a tick even today, four years later.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAVUTO:  All right, now they're bringing in the big guns, former President Barack Obama at a forum right now on racism, going to be at an event later on in Philadelphia helping get his former vice president over the top to become the next president of the United States.

All of this at a time when Goldman Sachs, the big brokerage firm, is saying the trend is Joe Biden's friend, predicting an election that could cause a blue wave that would spark a lot more green, economic stimulus through a lot of spending.

They say that would -- that is, Goldman -- offset the effect of tax hikes.

I don't know how my next guests feel about this, but let's see.

Frances Newton Stacy joins us, John Layfield, good market reads, all.

John, what do you make of that? Goldman Sachs is saying a blue wave, where Democrats run the table, take over everything, it's going to be stimulus like there is nobody's business, and deficits be damned, it is going to give the economy a major spark? What do you think?

JOHN LAYFIELD, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  It's hard to say. It's hard to quantify that.

Joe Biden's campaign says they're going to create 10 million jobs. Moody's, which kind of leans toward Democrat candidate, says they're going to create

8.8 million. You're starting to already see it, say, in lithium and cobalt mining stocks, as far as the E.V. wave that's coming forward in solar stocks.

You are going to see a lot of infrastructure spending. Whether that offsets the tax increase, President Biden certainly says so. Moody's says so. I think only time will tell.

CAVUTO:  Yes.

Frances, Moody's saying something like that, Moody's has something to gain from a Democratic president, because they do a lot of spending, issue a lot of bonds. That's what they're in, the bond rating business. So, I would take that with a grain of salt.

Having said that, though, Frances, I'm curious about the impact, because you raise taxes in any environment, maybe even this one, particularly this when, it could be dicey, no matter how much you're spending. What do you think?

FRANCES NEWTON STACY, OPTIMAL CAPITAL:  That's true.

And I don't think the Biden tax increases have been fully priced into the markets, as some are suspecting. And the reason for that is, we have no idea what balance sheets are going to look like coming out of COVID. We're not out of the woods yet.

But rest assured, Neil, both parties will have no choice but to have a record amount of fiscal stimulus, because we have to paper over those deficits. And that's the way to do it.

They're estimating that, in 10 years, Biden will spend $5.6 trillion and Trump will spend 5. That's pretty far apart. When it comes to you and me, that's a big number, but really relatively, over a decade, not as far apart as people think.

CAVUTO:  John, the president says you can kiss your 401(k) goodbye if Joe Biden gets in. He's saying that all the tax-friendly environment, the low regulations, that all ends and so does your 401(k). What do you think?

LAYFIELD:  I don't agree with that.

I think the market is going to be OK. I think the market is going to be OK because of the Fed. I'm not a fan of the tax increases. That's obviously going to hurt business. The spending will probably offset that, as far as how they keeps it economy in the market buoyant.

But with the Fed as kind of accommodating as it is right now, I think the market will probably be OK.

CAVUTO:  All right, Frances, quick 15 seconds on that?

NEWTON STACY:  Fifteen seconds.

The market being OK is determined by how many of those loans in forbearance become defaults in credit markets. Neil, that's very deflationary.

CAVUTO:  That was very powerful there in that 12 seconds.

All right, thank you, guys, very, very much.

As they were wrapping up here, we're getting word now that Senate Democrats plan to boycott tomorrow's Senate Judiciary vote on Amy Barrett.

I don't know what that would mean and whether that would disrupt the vote.

All Republicans would be voting, presumably, yes. No Democrats would be part of that process. We will see.

That will do it for now.

Here comes "THE FIVE."

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