Sec. Kelly and AG Sessions talk border security and DACA policy

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This is a rush transcript from "The First 100 Days," April 20, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL THE FIRST 100 DAYS HOST: We are covering breaking news tonight. Nearly 1:00 a.m. now as terror strikes the heart of France again. A police officer killed, two others gravely wounded near the same Champs-Elysees, ISIS quickly claiming responsibility for this attack. French officials say that it was a war weapon that was used in this attack. Waiting for more details on that. They have withstood, of course, attacks in Nice, at Charlie Hebdo headquarters, at the Bataclan Nightclub, and now, once again in France, they are under attack.

They're getting ready for a big election come Sunday. One candidate has called for a postponement in light of this. More live news from France as we get it throughout the evening.

And also, breaking tonight, the President once said nobody builds a wall better than me, and promised to build one 1900 miles long. He said if you don't have real borders, you don't have a country. Those words helped to carry him to the White House.


DONALD TRUMP, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Within ICE, I'm going to create a new special deportation task force focused on identifying and quickly removing the most dangerous criminal, illegal immigrants in America.

Horrible things have happened. They're getting the hell out or they're going to prison.

I will build a great, great wall on our southern border and I will have Mexico pay for that wall.

We are going to triple the number of ICE deportation officers.

We're going to take that fight to the drug cartels and work to liberate our communities from their terrible grip of violence.

DACA is a very, very difficult subject for me because you have these incredible kids, in many cases, not in all cases.


MACCALLUM: So far, so good. Good evening, everybody, I'm Martha MacCallum. It is now day 91 of the first 100. And the two men tasked with carrying out that plan we just heard about, Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and Homeland Security John Kelly are on their first joint trip today to the border. Just a short time ago, they joined us exclusively on "The First 100 Days" from El Paso, Texas.


MACCALLUM: Gentlemen, welcome to both of you. Great to have you with us on "The First 100 Days" tonight. Let's jump right in because there's a lot to get to. So, Secretary Kelly, your thoughts, as you go down to the border there together today, what -- how much of the changes that we just heard about have actually been implemented?

JOHN KELLY, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, we're still working on an across a broad range of things, Martha. But - now, just to highlight something, just in the last 60, 90 days, the movement of illegal immigrants up from Central America through Mexico has dropped off 70 percent, right about a 15, 16 year low.

And frankly, we haven't done all that much yet. There's a fair amount of what I would call fencing here between the border, it's very, very effective. The men and women that worked the border, CDP and ICE and others, find it remarkably effective in keeping down the amount of illegal movement across the two borders.

MACCALLUM: Let me stay with you for a second, Secretary Kelly, because you bring up the fencing, the wall was a promise that was made by the President. At one point, you said it was going to get started in the first couple of months. When will it begin?

KELLY: Well, we've got requests out for proposals. I think something in the neighborhood of 100 companies from across the nation have shown interest and are starting to put together their prototypes. The expectation, my expectation, and of course, contracting is a pretty complicated business in the federal government, unfortunately, too complicated. But I think by late spring, early summer, we'll have some prototypes and we'll be able to move forward by end of the summer. So, we won't be able to do it all in one afternoon. That is, build a wall and physical barrier, and this see-through wall, depending on the conditions, but we're going to get at it as quick as we can.

MACCALLUM: All right. Attorney General Sessions, this week, there were stories about possible differences of tactics or different ways of approaching this issue between you and Secretary Kelly. You've taken a very hard line just telling people, "Do not come. We don't want you to cross the border, it's not safe for you to cross the border." Secretary Kelly has characterized them as - the majority of people who come over as good people from Central America. Do you take issue with that characterization?

JEFF SESSIONS, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: No. Most of the people are coming here for personal reasons. And they're not criminals. But we do have an, unfortunately, a number of criminal elements involved. We have international cartels, MS-13 headquartered in El Salvador. And now, maybe 10,000 in the United States. They perhaps, the most violent gang we've ever had in the United States.

So, no, I don't think we have any disagreement at all about that. I am here basically to congratulate him, his border patrol, his ICE officers, for the fabulous work they've done. And really, the biggest part of this credit goes to President Trump. It's his message, that this border is no longer open. If you want to come to America, apply, do it lawfully. We had met 1.1 million people a year to lawful, permanent status in America. So, just don't do it illegally, let's do it legally. And we're going to get this thing done. And I think it's quite a thing to celebrate this much progress in first 100 days.

MACCALLUM: All right. Secretary Kelly, let's talk about DACA because of a big story this week, Juan Montes, 23 years old, deported from this country. He's covered by DACA until 2018, so why was he deported?

KELLY: Well, he wasn't DACA anymore because of his behavior. He had multiple brushes with the law. One conviction for larceny, he left the country, and then returned illegally. So, he takes himself by his actions off the DACA list. So, when he was taken into custody and deported, he was no longer covered by DACA.


MACCALLUM: So, the people who support him - let me just ask you one quick question. They say, you know, he's the sole supporter for his family, that he was - he claims he was eating at a restaurant in California, was picked up by agents and tossed back over the border. You don't agree with those? You think those are false assertions?

KELLY: They're absolutely false assertions. I mean, you would expect someone that was here under the DACA rules to be extra special cautious in terms of getting crosswise with our laws. He didn't, so he's gone.

MACCALLUM: Attorney General Sessions, in terms of DACA in the broad picture, does it change under this administration? Are you going to continue to honor DACA or should people expect that it will not be honored?

SESSIONS: You know, I've made my position clear over the years. Actually, as to the legality of the President's order, one of the orders has already been struck down. But look, what we got to do and what the general has to do, is to deploy his resources at the most important areas. And as you heard President Trump say, "We're focusing in on criminal people that are here, people who have gotten into violation of the law, and who have otherwise present a threat to the United States. That's who we're focusing on now.

MACCALLUM: All right. So, in other words, people who are here undocumented, but who are not breaking a law besides that, can they expect to be untouched?

SESSIONS: Well, what I would say, the only thing I can say is what the law says. If you entered this country unlawfully, you're subject to being deported. General Kelly and I are prosecutors, we'll be focusing on the top priorities first. That's what we're going to do.

MACCALLUM: I do want to ask you about MS-13, which you brought up a moment ago. This is a scourge in this nation, and it has brought the kind of crime that we used to think was relegated to drug cartels south of the border, to places like Los Angeles and Long Island, we've seen beheadings, we've seen gang rapes. Why did we not, General Kelly, hear about this more? We've heard about it but not to the extent that you are all are taking it on now in the prior administration.

KELLY: Martha, I would just tell you that this administration is willing to take on these hard issues. This administration is not willing to kick these problems down the road to the next president. We're taking them on right now. That's what President Trump told us to do. The only thing I can surmise in the past, as you know, I think I was on duty in southern command for 39 months, more or less, prior to taking this job. I knew what was going on. I was always astounded by people in the United States weren't talking about it. But I was pretty busy intercepting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of drugs as it moved up into Mexico. I don't know why they - we've - they didn't talk about it. We are.

MACCALLUM: Yes. And no doubt that's one of the many reasons that you were chosen for your job as Secretary, and we thank you for that service. You know, in terms of MS-13, in terms of the legal side of it, Attorney General Sessions, how - you've talked about this in battle terms, but this is the beachhead to go against them. How do you do that? How do you - how do you kick out the people who are here, track them down, and, you know, sort of put a cork in this problem?

SESSIONS: Good question. What we're doing is we're telling our federal investigators to go after these individuals when they have the evidence about somebody connected to the MS-13. Let's go after them, attack their money laundering and their violence and their prostitution and their killing. And if we do that, regularly and consistently, we can do what we have done before. We stopped the Colombian cartels. We actually damaged MS-13 a number of years ago. And it has come back. And so, we can damage it again.

Our goal is to destroy this, to dismantle it. That's why President Trump gave us an executive order, to dismantle these international criminal organizations. And we're going to do that. We're going to prosecute them. We're going to investigate them, and we're going to deport them after that. So, that's the right thing to do. I believe we'll be successful. It's going to be a top priority of this government. You can be sure of it.

MACCALLUM: Attorney General, another quick question for you. The Judge Curiel who is overseeing the case that we talked about a moment ago with Mr. Montes, is someone that had a bit of a run-in with President Trump because he was overseeing Trump University case during the course of the election. Do you think this judge can be fair in this case?

SESSIONS: Well, I suspect expect so. The lawyers who know a lot more about it than I, I would file for a recusal if necessary. But I go into a courtroom assuming that you'll get a fair hearing, and if there's proof otherwise, a motion can be filed.

MACCALLUM: All right. And just one other comment from you, if you can, Attorney General Sessions, about a comment that you made earlier on a radio show with regards to the extreme vetting, which has been shot down by a Hawaii judge. You said, "I'm amazed that a judge sitting on an island in the Pacific can issue an order that stops the President of the United States from what appears to be clearly his statutory and constitutional power." That's getting some pushback in a number of venues in the media today. Do you want to clarify that statement at all?

SESSIONS: Well, Hawaii is a beautiful island. We've about 800 federal judges, one protected perhaps by the ninth circuit is stuck on executive order by the President of the United States, that I believe is constitutional and that I believe is explicitly approved by statutory law. So - but the law will process will go forward, appeals will be held.

MACCALLUM: All right. Secretary Kelly, how is - how are the border agents doing down there? And how is there attitude under this administration?

KELLY: They couldn't be happier. I will tell you this, they are remarkable men and women that really for the last eight or so years have been very, very underappreciated, not allowed to do their job, now, they're simply doing their job and they're happy to do it. Now, I got to add a comment. When I hear people criticize men and women like I, now leave repeatedly and believes the first thing that they hear on T.V. or in the media, I am reminded by a guy by the name of Brian Terry, who patrolled these very, very dangerous borders some years ago. A border patrol officer who is killed in the line of duty. And we've just caught one of his last two remaining murderers.

And I called Brian Terry's mother and I offered her my condolences and told her that we caught one of the - on of the animals that murdered her son, one of the illegal aliens that murdered her son. Those are the kind of men and women we have here. And those are the kind of families they come from. Because the only thing she said to me was, "Please, please, please, tell them all to be careful. I pray for them." That's my last comment, Martha. These are wonderful men and women.

MACCALLUM: Thank you. Thank you very much. We followed Brian Terry's story very closely here, and that was very good news for his family and for the rest of the country, as well, when you all tracked those people down. We truly appreciate you being with us today, gentlemen. Thank you very much to you, both.

SESSIONS: Martha, thank you.

KELLY: Thank you.


MACCALLUM: Our thanks to them. As you know, we're covering a breaking news story. An attack in the heart of France tonight. Policeman killed days before a crucial election. So, what will it mean for the future of France as they get ready for that? We're going to stay on that for you tonight.

Plus, Cold War era suspicions are now gripping the CIA, as the FBI is searching for a mole who is spilling secrets inside the agency. The man who interrogated Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for the CIA, James Mitchell, here on that.

And the first deportation of a so-called "dreamer" is getting democrats very riled up. But is new DNC chair Tom Perez being completely honest about this issue? David Wohl and Matt Bennett here with us in a moment.


KELLY: Expect someone that was here under the DACA rules to be extra special cautious in terms of getting crosswise with our laws. He didn't, so he's gone.


MACCALLUM: Breaking tonight, France on edge this evening, that after one in the morning there now, an anti-terror operation is under way. ISIS quickly claimed responsibility for this deadly attack. Authorities are searching a location in the city suburbs. Very concerned, of course, whether another attack could possibly be underway, whether there anyone was working with this person, one officer dead, two others seriously wounded. The attacker was killed. It is the latest in a grim string of incidents in that beautiful country.

Go back to January 2015; terrorists stormed the offices of the Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris, setting off three days of violence there. November 2015, jihadist attacked a crowded Paris concert hall, taking the lives of nearly 100 people who were gunned down inside that concert hall. 2016, July, an extremist plows a truck through crowds in East France, killing nearly 90 people, and then, this today. So, you can imagine why the French people are very much on edge.

Three days from now, they will go to the polls and vote in the first round of their presidential election. It is hotly contested, and at least one candidate is calling for a postponement due to the events of this evening. We'll keep you posted on new developments from France tonight.

And back to this breaking news here at home, you just heard Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the DHS Secretary John Kelly address this story, which is very big this week; the deportation of this 23-year-old, Juan Manuel Montes. Tonight, there is new details in this case, including that the judge presiding over this case, check this out, will be none other than the judge who was the subject of a lot of controversy for president -- now- President Trump during the campaign. This is Justice Curiel. He was repeatedly attacked by the candidate on Twitter and elsewhere for his handling of the Trump University case, and that caused a lot of backlash for candidate Trump.

We go now to William La Jeunesse live in our west coast newsroom tonight with more on this case for us. Hi, William.

WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martha, well, it was a big story partially because Donald Trump says the Kennedys are going to deport the DACA recipients, and then, when he got in office, he said "Well, maybe not. We're going to be really humane about it." So, we have two totally different stories in this case.

On one hand, the dreamer basically says he was tossed over the border back to Mexico without cause or due process, despite his protected legal status. On the other, you have the federal government saying that Juan Manuel Montes blew it. That he had the freedom to live and work in the U.S. and likely a shot at legal residency, and threw it away for a pleasure trip to Mexico.

So, here are the two stories. Montes claims that he's having lunch with a friend on the U.S. side of the border when he was confronted by a Border Patrol agent, and when he couldn't immediately produce his DACA I.D., he claims he was detained and deported. Homeland Security says that is a lie, and I'm quoting, "There are no records or evidence to support Montes' claim that he was detained or taken to the Calexico Port of Entry on February 18th." Instead, officials say that Montes was already in Mexico when they caught him a day later, trying to sneak in by climbing over a fence.

The bottom line, there are cameras on both sides of the border, and if he was indeed deported involuntarily, there is going to be video, paper trail, logs, radio calls, and probably witnesses. Montes is suing to return. The federal judge hearing that case, as you said, is Gonzalo Curiel. Recall, he handled the Trump University litigation. Candidate Trump said he could be ejected because of his Mexican heritage even though he was born in Indiana. I am told, Martha, as a federal judge in San Diego, half of these cases are probably immigration-related, and he should not have a hard time being unbiased. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: William, thank you.

So, the new head of the DNC, Tom Perez, has not always been consistent on this issue. The other day he tweeted this, "Trump's mass deportation force has taken Juan Manuel Montes. Trump and republicans' promise that dreamers wouldn't be targeted? Lies," he writes. But he seems to be forgetting that President Obama did deport 365 people who had DACA coverage after they committed some sort of offense that negated that from the office of -- from ICE during the course of his presidency. So, a little bit of selective memory, perhaps, on the part of Mr. Perez here.

Let's bring in our guest tonight. Joining me now, David Wohl, attorney and supporter of President Trump, Matt Bennett, a co-founder of Third Way and former deputy assistant to President Bill Clinton. So, Matt, given the fact that people who broke the laws that pertain to your DACA status, were deported from this country and the hundreds under President Obama, why would Tom Perez make that statement?

MATT BENNETT, THIRD WAY CO-FOUNDER AND FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: Because the people that were deported under President Obama were violent criminals. I mean, you were covering this earlier. There are some very bad people in this country and they should be deported. Everyone agrees that if you are a violent member of MS-13 or you commit some sort of terrible crime, you should be tossed, no matter what kind of status you have. But this guy is not that. This guy, depending on who you believe, he either committed a minor crime related to immigration laws or no crime at all. That is not at all what President Obama was doing. That is what we're seeing under President Trump.

MACCALLUM: David, what do you think?

DAVID WOHL, ATTORNEY AND SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, I mean, look, DACA, you have to understand, is a revocable status. It's not a permanent status. And forget about the immigration thing for a second. He committed a theft offense, which is a crime of moral turpitude, which is grounds to revoke the status, to begin with. Now, I got to say, his story about being singled out and deported because the immigration officers thought he looked suspicious, just doesn't ring true. It's much more likely that he visited Mexico, which is another ground to revoke DACA because it breaks the chain of citizenship or the chain of residency.

So, that would -- that would eliminate it right there. I'm far more likely to believe that the immigration officer's story is true, as is Judge Curiel. I don't think the judge is going to have a problem hearing this. Remember, this doesn't directly pertain to President Trump, like the Trump University case. This is something that pertains to, I think, cases he hears every single day that -- like William said, immigration cases are huge part of his caseload. My guess is the young man is going to stay in Mexico.

MACCALLUM: Let me -- let me ask you, legally, because I know what he is arguing, David -- just staying with you for a moment -- is that the government has to provide you documentation as to why you were deported. And that he says he didn't get that documentation. So, you know, just a strictly as a legal matter, if that is the case, does he have any leverage on that?

WOHL: Well, I mean, the documentation will be, number one, a certified copy of his prior conviction for theft. And number two, I'm sure the Border Patrol can easily produce a police report, a report of sorts, that will document that they were at the border, that they saw him sneaking over an illegal re-entry area, and they captured, apprehended him and deported him. It's that simple


MACCALLUM: You know, I think the bottom line here is that the rules are being adhered to. You know, I mean, that's the bottom line. So, I mean, like it or not, if you don't stick to the letter of the law, that allows you the DACA status that you have, you may blow it and you might -- you might not be able to get back in.

BENNETT: Look, this is precisely what we feared when Trump was talking about revoking DACA or talking about how terrible DACA was during the campaign, which is to say that he is going after people for minor offenses of the immigration laws, rather than going after violent people. And that is a mistake, that is bad policy, that is bad for the United States, and that is, in some cases, cruel, and not how we should be proceeding.


BENNETT: This guy is your -- just a minute, David. Just -- I let you talk. The larceny offense happened before his DACA status was renewed. So, that is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether he was trying to get into the country or not.



WOHL: If you don't think that Trump is going to go after the real bad guys, the MS-13, the hardcore gang bangers, then, you're wrong. That's going to be his priority. But look, they're going to get liberal about revoking DACA status now. So, anyone who has it, follow it to the letter of the law. That's all in due time.

MACCALLUM: And as John Kelly just said, you know, if you're in that situation, you're going to be extra super careful to make sure that you're not crossing any lines that might jeopardize your status. And that does --

WOHL: Bingo.

MACCALLUM: -- sounds like the bottom line. Thanks, you guys. Good to see you both.

WOHL: Yes. Thank you, Martha.

So, tonight, two former advisors for President George W. Bush, with two very different messages about the Republican Party ahead of the 2018 midterms. White House insiders Karl Rove and Scott Jennings, here to get two sides of this argument.

Plus, U.S. Intelligence Agencies frantically searching for a mole in an environment that some say fuels quite a bit like what the Cold War situation felt like inside our Intel agencies. The CIA consultant who interrogated the mastermind of 9/11, James Mitchell, joins us with how they are going to find this guy when we come back.


SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is the kind of disclosure that undermines our country, our security, and our well-being.



MACCALLUM, THE FIRST 100 DAYS HOST: Breaking tonight, the FBI hunts for a spy inside the intel community, after get this, WikiLeaks splashed top secret classified U.S. documents all over the internet. Nobody knows how they got their hands on these things. Then, it happened again a couple days ago. So, there is a cold war style hunt for the agent or the system or whatever it is out there that is breaking in and exposing this country's most closely held secrets. In moments, we'll be joined by former CIA contract Dr. James Mitchell, who has it been here before on this program, and who personally interrogated 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. We begin with chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge from Washington tonight, Catherine.

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Martha. The FBI is running a counterintelligence investigation. Along with the CIA, they are exploring whether an insider at the agency was responsible for the theft of thousands of documents revealing the CIA's most sensitive cyber tools. Posted by WikiLeaks last month and in recent days, a former military intelligence officer told Fox News these records are highly restrictive. What is called compartmented information and that help to narrow the search.


TONY SHAFFER, CIA SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OPERATIVE: I do believe by now that they have a reference category group of about 15 people they are looking at. This is done because I think there will be a very distinct electronic trail because frankly, everybody at the CIA did not have access to these very specific programs and very specific tools.


HERRIDGE: Given the new information, CIA director Mike Pompeo's public a statement last week takes on new meaning, the language strongly suggesting that WikiLeaks actively recruited someone to infiltrate the agency.


MIKE POMPEO, CIA DIRECTOR: WikiLeaks walks like a hostile intelligence service and talks like a hostile intelligent service. It's encouraged its followers to find jobs at the CIA in order to obtain intelligence. It's time to called WikiLeaks what it really is, a non-state hostile intelligence service, often abided by state actors like Russia.


HERRIDGE: On twitter today, WikiLeaks said planting of stories in the media about hunting for sources usually means a failed investigation trying to say which of many suspects react. Fox News has also learned the CIA is doing what is called a damage assessment of that is required every time classified information is compromised, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Catherine, thank you very much.

HERRIDGE: You are welcome.

MACCALLUM: Here now, former CIA contractor James Mitchell, author of "Enhanced interrogation, inside the minds and motives of the Islamic terrorist trying to destroy America." Dr. Mitchell, good to have you with us tonight. You heard the story. What do you think is going on here?
What is your best gut guess?

JAMES MITCHELL, FORMER CIA CONTRACTOR: You mean in terms of the investigation? I am hoping they will treat it every bit like they would in a cold war bowl hunt. If you treat it like a one-off thing that a disgruntled employee does, you might overlook some other people that are doing similar things. I'm hoping that they are going to look hard and clean houses, as it were. Those kinds of leaks are very, very damaging.

You may remember that some of the first leaks about the enhanced interrogation program came from a CIA officer who was in the office of the CIA inspector general, leaking that information to the press. Of these leaks are very dangerous. I agree with whoever the previous guest was, that was saying that they probably have a limited pool of people. One of the good things about compartmentalized programs is that you have access rosters. You know who is allowed access to them and they keep track of who has access to them and when they access them. My guess is they are going to have a pretty small group of people that they are looking at.

MACCALLUM: They have a small group. It may be someone in the CIA, they may be a plant. It could be someone from a foreign entity, someone who has worked their way into the organization, could be cyber, coming from the outside, tapping into that information. How do you snap it out and how do you get them to talk? That is your expertise, sir.

MITCHELL: The difference between, I think, someone who is leaking secrets and Al Qaeda or ISIS fighter, it is what is going to happen of the secrets later, he is not wanting to be in jail. He will start making a deal, or she will start making a deal right away. I see them as a very different, much more straightforward law-enforcement approach to handling this. Of the FBI is very, very good at that. There are very good at smoking these folks out, very good I could the talk for you to the primary objective of a person, especially a western criminal, to limit the amount of time they spend in jail. They have a tendency to make deals to do that. I don't expect it will be as difficult as it would, say with a man like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11.

MACCALLUM: Any idea whether this is a foreign entity who has worked their way in or someone who has political agenda? We have seen both scenarios. What is your gut tell you as you look of a situation?

MITCHELL: I think it is impossible to know. It's entirely possible. WikiLeaks has been around enough time, so they could have convinced someone to go through the whole process of getting it. The other problem that I think we have is a culture now is that we have made it sexy to reveal these kinds of secrets. So the sort of subculture in the United States has turned these folks into heroes. That gets people acting as if they were moles, when in fact they may not be, and the technical sense of the term. I think whoever it is that is doing this should be smoked out and they should be punished for the full extent of the law. That is the only way you can prevent the stuff from happening in the future.

MACCALLUM: Great point. You look at some of the TV shows and movies, there is this kind of intrigue that is attached to this kind of person who is able to work their way into these systems. I don't think there's anything you can do about that. It makes for a good story. It seems like Mike Pompeo is really trying to demystify that a bit. He did speak very strongly about the kind of people and the kind of traitors, essentially, that exist in the circles.

MITCHELL: It's a problem because it puts our national security at risk. It does it in several ways. I mean, essentially, if you leak the secrets about the CIA, what you are doing, you are improving the operational security of our enemies. You are telling them the methods that we use, you are telling them the things that they previously thought were safe to use are not safe to use. That changes their behavior and makes it much more difficult for us to surveil them. The other thing that it does is it makes our allies think that we can't be trusted with a secret. That may not be a problem for western democracies, but it can be definitely be a problem in the Middle East, where people are working with us who don't want it known or may be an asset that is working inside of a hostile government that doesn't want that known. The final thing that I think that is so dangerous about this, Americans are caught up in this fervor about civil liberties, and they tend to take the efforts of the government to the worst possible extreme every time this sort of thing happens. One concern we have to have, there will be this public outcry to push back, or cutback, or eliminate some of these surveillance methods that have been keeping us safe.

MACCALLUM: Dr. Mitchell, thank you so much. Always good have you with us, sir. Still ahead, a major reversal at the so-called first place of free speech, Ann Coulter gets ready for a showdown at Berkeley. Plus, new questions of whether the media is making too much of President Trump's so- called flip-flops and what that means for the grand old party. Two bush White House insiders, Karl Rove, and Scott Jenny, here were totally different takes on who is to blame on Capitol Hill right now when we come back.


MACCALLUM: Accounts at the GOP should be firing on all cylinders, after big wins, giving enormous power in Washington, but so far, big zeros in the big ones, tax reform and health care. The spotlight has turned from the White House over to congress. We have nine days to go in the first 100 days. Two Bush White House veterans weigh in on all of this. From Pennsylvania Avenue to Capitol Hill, Karl Rove writes this, the unfavorable ability is up eight points. May be next year's election will be known as the lesser of two evils. The former bush advisor Scott Jennings says President Trump as "all the right enemies in the press will continue to create stories about his flip-flops are costing him his most fervent supporters. The truth is, Trump based is as valid today as it was on election day." how does all that translate? Joining me now, Fox News Contributor Karl Rove, and Scott Jennings former special assistant to President Bush, gentlemen, welcome, and good to have you here, I am interested in all the right enemies comment, and, Scott, what you mean by that? Is that working for President Trump in terms of getting things done?

SCOTT JENNINGS, POLITICAL ANALYST: I think the policy news coming out of Washington, D.C., these days his head is spinning. We get a lot of different stories in any given day of the week. If you are an average voter out there, you are probably not following 50 beltway reporters on twitter. You are watching this a little more passively and you can assume that President Trump is still doing what you want him to be doing, because the people who are mad at him are still the people you don't like. "The New York times"," "The Washington post," is Chuck Schumer mad, yes. Then, Donald Trump must be doing the things I sent him to Washington to do. I think the press needs to separate President Trump from his base, but I don't like the story lines they are creating will be successful in doing that.

MACCALLUM: Very interesting. A Karl, how does that translate into wins on the GOP side?

KARL ROVE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I think Scott is absolutely right. I thought it was a great piece. Trump does have the right critics. I'd make the point that in addition, I wish she was spending more time developing the right allies. This is the point during which a president takes his election number, which was 46 percent of the electorate for Trump, and grows it in the initial stages of their administration, to 50 some odd, 60 some odd, and uses that early period to establish them throughout the rest of the year. I am with Scott. Don't worry about the critics. Those critics will reinforce your base. I wish the White House would pay more attention to how can we develop a broader support. His approval rating is 43 percent. That is less than a percentage he got on Election Day. And it is the lowest that no president has ever been at that point at this point to the presidency. I would like to see that higher.

MACCALLUM: When you look at some of the breakdowns in news that two people are saying, they do seem, Scott, and Karl, to be unhappy about tax reform, they are unhappy about health care. These are the big things that affect our lives and we want these done. I think the Ayer has turned in large part to congress because congress, Paul Ryan, they have tried to pull these folks together and they can't believe it's not working. Scott, go ahead.

JENNINGS: I agree that voters are getting a little bit antsy because I wrote after the election that the election results in November, to me, were a rejection of incrementalism. For the last six years of the Obama administration, we had incremental movement in almost every policy debate, so the unified control of government under the Republican Party. They did it at the federal level and in many cases, the state level, because they are tired of the ping-pong game at the bottom of the swimming pool full of molasses. They want to see movement. The Republican Party can't afford to go into the midterms without having shown some movement on the things on which it ran. Health care reforms, tax reform, anything, where Trump can build back some of that support he may have lost a couple of tricks on his own infrastructure.

MACCALLUM: The pool of molasses, that doesn't sound like it is going anywhere quickly. Karl last thought.

ROVE: This idea that you got to get something done in the first 100 days is ridiculous. It goes back to the new deal and Franklin Roosevelt.

MACCALLUM: It sure helps, Karl. It helps the story lines. Obama got stimulus, Bush got the tax cut, and you want to put something on the ledger.

ROVE: You want to put points on the board, no doubt about it. The failure to get repeal and replace is going to hurt the Republicans. I agree with Scott. They need to show movement on tax reform, on Obama repeal and replace, on limiting the size of government, strengthening the military, securing our borders, all the things that Trump talked about. There needs to be progress. And there will be progress. But this is why the failure to get repeal and replace was so damaging. It caused people to question whether or not the Republicans could govern. And they have got to govern in order to win the 2018 election.

MACCALLUM: People are impatient where they wanted done. They are getting anxious. Thanks, you guys. Good to see you both. Coming up next, conservative pundit at Calder's speech at U.C. Berkeley is back on. Will she be welcomed with a protest? Lisa Boothe and Jessica Tarlov weigh coming up next.


MACCALLUM: These were scenes from Berkeley and Middlebury College, which we showed you last month, after conservative speakers were invited to address the student's event, everybody burn things and choked cars and all kinds of crazy things happened. U.C. Berkeley had planned on canceling Ann Coulter's speech. They are now letting her speech. Lisa Boothe president of High Noon strategy and Fox News Contributor Jessica Tarlov a Democratic pollster and senior director of research at, Lisa, let me start with you, your thoughts on this whole thing?

LISA BOOTHE, HIGH NOON STRATEGIST PRESIDENT: I think it is incredibly sad. We are seeing their shutting down of the first amendment admitting it with violence on too many college campuses. As you point out, Milo Yiannopoulos at Berkeley, there is Molotov cocktails, setting up fires, the irony, one of the students, he was physically assaulted. The problem is there is no accountability. You look at liberal professors outnumbering conservatives 12-1 on college campuses. You can go to your professor watch and find professors who have engaged in some of the violence, as well. It is incredibly sad. I think it's an indictment of the left.


JESSICA TARLOV, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think Lisa and I will agree more in this evening than any of the last two years. I'm embarrassed. This is an issue for years. You have people that have been shut down, like Jason Riley, or Ray Kelly. I think it's unfortunate. The most important thing we can do is listen to the other side, especially with liberals with conservatives and power come at all the highest levels. While I find some of what Ann Coulter says to be hateful, I think we need to be drawing a line at what hate speeches and things that you disagree with. If you show up and you push back in a productive way, you can get far, engage with her. Have a conversation.

MACCALLUM: I don't know how you expect to get an education if you don't hear both sides of thought, political thought, whatever it is. Lisa, the question, it has been like this for a while. What is the catalyst for change, if there is one?

BOOTHE: I think there needs to be at a grassroots level, speakers like Ann Coulter, who essentially shamed Berkeley into re-inviting her onto the college campus. Turning point USA, a lot of these organizations at the grassroots level that are trying to bring change to these campuses, but I also think there needs to be rejection of this mentality from the left more broadly. Of the past couple years, we have seen this violence, not just on the college campuses, but in cities, the burning down of cities and churches and businesses. Ferguson, Missouri, we have seen police being attacked, cars being stomped on outside of Trump rallies, during the campaign.

MACCALLUM: Jessica, ten seconds.

TARLOV: If you saw what went on last weekend between Trump protesters and Trump supporters, there is violence on both sides. This is not something at liberal universities condone in terms of violence. It needs to stop.
But that is an unfair connection.

MACCALLUM: Thank you both. We'll be right back with our quote of the night and a special spot that we went to in our nation's capital. We'll see you after the break.


MACCALLUM: Yesterday, I was in Washington and the Eisenhower executive office building on the White House grounds. It's an amazing, historic jam of architecture and design and I never get tired of seeing the inside of that amazing building. It houses a lot of the White House staff and they are surrounded by historic portraits, desks, American treasures, like this portrait of George Washington. Our quote of the night is his, as it speaks of his trepidation of becoming the first president of our then brand-new United States. "I walk on untraded ground. There is scarcely any part of my conduct which may not hereafter be drawn into precedent, integrity and humility." He is held up pretty well over time, I would say. I'm Martha MacCallum. See you back here at 7:00 tomorrow night. Have a good night, everybody.

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