Rubio: Proposed Muslim ban violates the Constitution
On 'Hannity,' presidential candidate blasts Trump's proposal and discusses 'homegrown violent, extremist problem'
This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," December 8, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: And welcome to "Hannity." Tonight, 2016 Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump refuses to back down over his bold plan to keep America safe from ISIS threats despite a huge wave of criticism from the mainstream media and politicians on both sides of the aisle.
Now, last night, Trump laid out his proposal to stop all Muslims from entering the U.S. until government officials can get a better understanding of the increasing terror threats to the homeland. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What's happened is we're out of control! We have no idea who's coming into our country. We have no idea if they love us or if they hate us. We have no idea if they want to bomb us. We have no idea what's going on. Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: And in Washington yesterday, the House Homeland Security Committee chairman, Congressman Mike McCaul, who will join us, by the way, later tonight, issued a very stern warning about ISIS infiltrating the refugee community that wants to come to America. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE MCCAUL, R-TEXAS: I can reveal today that the United States government has information to indicate that individuals tied to terrorist groups in Syria have already attempted to gain access to our country through the U.S. refugee program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: And Congressman McCaul is not the only one who has sounded the alarm about the refugee security risk. The national intelligence director, the head of the FBI and several other high-ranking officials have also issued warnings. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAUL: Would that bringing in Syrian refugees pose a greater risk to Americans?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, it's clearly a population of concern.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The concern is in Syria, the lack of our footprint on the ground in Syria that the databases won't have the information we need. So it's not that we have a lack of process. It's there's a lack of information.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that obviously raises a grave concern as to be able to do proper background checks of the individuals coming into the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I don't obviously put it past the likes of ISIL to infiltrate operatives among these refugees.
JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: We can only query against that which we have collected. And so if someone has never made a ripple in the pond in Syria in a way that would get their identity or their interests reflected in our database, we can query our database until the cows come home, but we're not going to -- there'll be nothing show up because we have no record on that person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's some fear -- some fear that some of these refugees may actually be posing as refugees, but they might actually be al Qaeda or ISIS terrorists trying to sneak into Europe or the United States. What do you make of that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, certainly, that's a possibility. I mean, you can't dismiss that out of hand.
GEN. JOHN ALLEN, SPECIAL ENVOY: We should be conscious of the potential that Daesh may attempt to embed agents within that population.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Joining us with reaction, 2016 Republican presidential candidate Florida senator Marco Rubio. You continue to rise in the polls, Senator. A big congratulations to you.
We have General John Allen. We have James Comey, our FBI director, our assistant FBI director, the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, Mike McCaul, who will join us later, director of national intelligence James Clapper, many, many others saying that we cannot possibly vet and have assurance that those Syrian refugees in this particular case can be fully vetted.
Why would we gamble with the lives of the American people and allow them in?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, what I've said repeatedly is not that we don't want to allow refugees, it's that you can't allow someone you can't fully vet. And as you heard in one of the statements -- I couldn't see who it was, but they it's not a lack of process. It's a lack of information.
You can vet them a million times and nothing's going to turn up because we don't have reliable databases from people coming from -- especially Syria.
And then we face another distinct challenge, and that is American citizens, people that have lived in this country their entire life, as we saw this week in San Bernardino, who become radicalized on line, through overseas travel, whatever it may be, and then they conduct an atrocious act of terror...
HANNITY: But the woman in that case...
RUBIO: ... and war against our country.
HANNITY: She grew up in Saudi Arabia and she had a Pakistani passport.
RUBIO: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIO: Well, but her husband was a U.S. citizen in this country.
HANNITY: You're right.
RUBIO: My point being is that we have a homegrown violent extremist problem, as well. They are two distinct but serious problems. One is people coming from abroad, and the other is increasingly ISIS propaganda that is radicalizing people here at home. And we have to deal with both of them.
HANNITY: We talked to Mr. Trump, saying that he has a habit of making offensive and outrageous comments. It sounds like, unless we can properly vet, in the case of Syrian refugees, you kind of agree with him. In other words, if we can't have a...
RUBIO: No, well...
HANNITY: If we don't have assurances from our intelligence officials, would you be comfortable letting them in?
RUBIO: Well, it depends on who they are, But it wouldn't be a religious test. Look, the king of Saudi Arabia, a strong ally of the United States -- his son attends Georgetown University. So he's not going to be allowed in? And what is that going to do to our relations with an important ally in the region?
My point is that -- it's not constitutional, to begin with. I mean, that sort of blanket denial of entry into the country -- and he even implied U.S. citizens who traveled abroad who are Muslim would not be allowed to come back in...
HANNITY: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: I didn't hear him say anything about American citizens. I would agree with you, constitutionally, there's a great distinction. If you're an American, you should be allowed back in. But there's no constitutional right for a foreigner to get into this country. We make those laws.
RUBIO: There isn't. There isn't. But we've never had a religious test. And I would just say to you to have a religious test would violate the Constitution. But to move further on this issue, it's not that we're banning people because of their faith, but we need to work with Muslims in the Middle East, Sunnis. Sunnis need to defeat this radical Sunni group.
The issue is, can we properly vet people coming into this country? If you cannot properly vet someone, whether they're Muslim or not, they shouldn't be allowed into the United States, irrespective of what their faith background might be. You have to be able to properly vet everyone...
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIO: ... we're facing a threat...
HANNITY: And if we can't vet them, would it be a good idea to put in place a pause until we can vet them and not gamble with the lives of the American people?
RUBIO: Well -- but I think that's functionally what we have, hopefully, going to happen. And that is not a pause because of a religious test but a pause because we can't vet people. Even if we tried to, we don't have enough information from that region to vet anyone. It's not because of their religion, it's because we don't have information about the region.
HANNITY: If you don't have information, you're not willing to let them in and gamble with the lives of the American people. And I agree with you on that.
RUBIO: Right. And so this is a -- what people have to accept is that this is a threat unlike anything we've ever faced before, and it requires us to do things such as this, at least until we understand and improve our databases, which, quite frankly, may not happen any time in the foreseeable future because ISIS has grown increasingly capable at eluding the kind of things that detect potential terrorists.
HANNITY: Let me ask you a tougher question. And I worry about the following. If you grow up in a country -- and I'll put up on a screen in the minute, you know, the sharia law in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Lebanon, the United Arab Emirates and Sudan. I'll put it up in a second.
But their values are the antithesis of our constitutional republic. So for example, if somebody grows up in Saudi Arabia -- we'll start with them -- where women can't drive and they need a male guardian's permission to travel or work or where marital rape is not even recognized and women are expected to cover themselves and men tell them how to dress -- those values, if you grow up in that society, or if you grow up in Bahrain, where a woman's testimony is worth half that of her man's, or in Lebanon, marital rape is not punished, there's no laws against sexual harassment in the workplace -- if you grow up in that culture, how do we know, if you want to come to America, that you want to assimilate, adopt American values, or if you want to bring those values that you grew up under with you?
How do we -- should we be able to ascertain that?
RUBIO: Yes, and that's a more fundamental question and it's an important question. And that is, are people coming to live in America or are they coming to become Americans? And there are people that live in those countries that are coming here to get away from that. They reject that ideology.
HANNITY: I agree.
RUBIO: They reject that lifestyle, and...
HANNITY: But how do we determine who's who?
RUBIO: ... they want to live in a country -- that's a hard thing to do. I mean, I admit that that's a much more difficult thing to do. And we're going to have to explore that. This is -- again, this is a new problem we've faced just in the last few years, where we used to be worried about people coming from abroad, but now in addition to that, we face people that are being radicalized here at home, as well.
And so this is a complex issue and it requires us to treat it seriously and to acknowledge that it is certain interpretation of the Muslim faith that is leading groups like ISIS to do what they're doing.
HANNITY: Let me play for you -- Ami Horowitz (ph) in May of last year actually went to Minneapolis and asked some residents, some Muslim residents, what they thought about -- what they wanted for the law of the land in America. And I want to play it for you and get your reaction to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you feel more comfortable living under American law or do you feel more comfortable living under sharia law?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sharia law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a Muslim. I prefer sharia law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sharia law, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you prefer sharia law over American law?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, yes. Of course, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you find most of your friends feel the same way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, of course. If you're Muslim, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: But my question, Senator, is I know that European countries have struggled with this question -- no-go zones, sharia courts and attempts to separate, et cetera. Do you worry about that when you hear those answers from American Muslims?
RUBIO: Well, of course. I mean, when you hear those answers from anyone, you would be concerned about someone who is saying that they want to impose on this country and on local jurisdictions religious tests and religious laws that are held in other countries around the world. You would be concerned.
And again, the purpose of our permanent immigration system should be to attract people to this country who are coming to become Americans, which is one of the reasons why I've argued that we need to move towards a merit- based system of immigration...
HANNITY: Yes.
RUBIO: ... where the primary criteria that we would use to admit someone to the country would be what job are they going to fill, what skills do they have, for what economic purpose are they coming to the United States?
It isn't going to solve all these problems. This is a very unique situation that we're now facing that's really begun to accelerate over the last few years. And I think we need to think about it very seriously and very responsibly in a way that can pass both constitutional muster but also keep our country safe.
HANNITY: All right, Senator, always good to see you. Appreciate it. Congratulations on your poll numbers.
RUBIO: Thanks, Sean.
HANNITY: It seems to be a three-way race right now, you, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. So it's getting interesting. Thank you.
RUBIO: Thank you.
HANNITY: And coming up, more reaction to these comments of Donald Trump to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. for just a period of time. We'll speak with another one of his Republican rivals. We'll check in with Dr. Benjamin Carson.
And then later -- what is life like really under sharia law? What does that mean in Saudi Arabia? You'll meet a human rights activist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She knows the brutal practices all too well, and she's here to explain them to you.
That and much more on this busy news night tonight on "Hannity."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What I'm doing is no different than what FDR -- FDR's solution for Germans, Italians, Japanese, you know, many years ago...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you're for internment camps?
TRUMP: This is a president who was highly respected by all. He did the same thing. If you look at what he was doing, it was far worse. I mean, he was talking about the Germans because we're at war. We are now at war!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: That was 2016 Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump defending his plan to ban all Muslims from entering the country until our leaders can properly assess the growing terror threats to the homeland.
Here with reaction, author of "A More Perfect Union: What We the People Can Do to Regain our Constitutional Liberties," 2016 Republican presidential candidate Dr. Benjamin Carson.
Dr. Carson, I see that you have been critical. We have our homeland security people, the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee in the House -- he says ISIS has a plan to infiltrate the refugee community. James Clapper, our national director of intelligence, our FBI director, our assistant FBI director and many others have all said that ISIS has the potential to infiltrate that population.
Are we making a mistake by allowing some of these people in? Does Donald Trump have a point?
DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, as I've said before, you know, it's a false narrative that we only have two choices, to bring in thousands of Syrian refugees or to turn our backs in cold-hearted indifference. We have another option, and that is to support the safe havens that they have over there. You know, Jordan has plenty of space for them.
HANNITY: Yes.
CARSON: And all they need is more financial support. It's a very false narrative. It's the same as with the Iran deal. We say either we go to war with Iran or we accept this horrible deal. But there's other options.
I don't know why we have to be talking about this, to be honest with you. But what we have to be careful of is not conflicting with the Constitution...
HANNITY: All right-...
CARSON: ... because the Constitution says that we do not discriminate on the basis of religion.
However, you know, I don't have any problem with anybody coming here regardless of their race, creed, religion, if they want to be Americans and if they want to live, you know, the American way of life. But if they want to come here and change it to something else, I have a big problem with that.
HANNITY: Yes. But nothing that Mr. Trump said indicates to me that he's saying Americans abroad that are Muslims do not have the right to come back. What I took from his remarks is that, wait a minute, all these important people, James Comey, James Clapper, John Kirby, Mike McCaul, Congressman Mike McCaul, the assistant FBI director, Obama's top envoy in the coalition to defeat ISIS, have all said that we cannot vet the Syrian refugees, for example.
So until we get to the point where we can fully vet them and guarantee the American people that they're going to be safe, does that then there make it a reasonable proposal? Because I agree with you about the safe zones. I think that's a far better solution.
CARSON: Well, it's different than saying that you're going to stop all Muslims from coming to say that we're not going to admit Syrians unless we have a better vetting process. Those are two different statements.
HANNITY: Well, what he said is he would stop, call for a complete shutdown of Muslims, I assume from abroad -- I mean, I don't think he's talking about Americans, as some have interpreted it, but I'll ask him next time he's on -- entering the country until our representatives can figure out what's going on. And then he went on to say until we're able to determine and understand the problem and prevent dangerous people from coming in.
CARSON: Right. He hasn't said anything different than what many of us are saying, in that we shouldn't be bringing people in without vetting them properly. I think where the controversy comes in is when he said Muslims in general. I think that's where the problem came. And given a chance to clarify that, I suspect he would.
HANNITY: What do you think about the idea that -- if you grow up under sharia law -- and you've studied our Constitution and you've written about our constitutional liberties -- there's a direct conflict. To me, it's a 180-degree difference. Sharia conflicts with our constitutional rule of law in this country. So somebody wants to come, having grown up under that system, there's a clash of cultures.
How do you ascertain -- can you possibly ascertain if they want to bring those values with them or if they want to, you know, assimilate into American societies? Is that possible to ascertain?
CARSON: There's no question it's going to be difficult. I think you have to look carefully at where they have grown up, where they've come from. You have to question them. You have to have techniques for questioning them which will give you an indication of whether they're coming to America to embrace American ideals, or whether they want to, in fact, change things.
You know, one thing that would be good for people to study is the Holy Land Foundation trial. You know, it started back in 2007.
HANNITY: Yes.
RUBIO: And during that trial, there was an explanatory memorandum that was discovered about the Muslim Brotherhood's purposes here in America. They want to wage what they call a civilization jihad. They want to infiltrate us, get into positions of power and actually change who we are. And the attorney general, Mr. Holder, you know, just put a stop on that trial.
HANNITY: Yes.
RUBIO: But that's a serious issue, and we know that that's going on and that's an agenda. And we cannot just close our eyes to that.
HANNITY: It sounds in many ways like you're agreeing with Mr. Trump on this issue for the most part. You would have said it differently.
You recently got back from Jordan. And you were at some of these safe zones and you talked to the people there. And one of the comments that struck me when you got back is you said those people really don't want to come here. The majority of people that you met, they want to go back to their own country.
CARSON: Yes. They want to go back. And the other thing that they want is for us to support the efforts of those who are trying to provide safe zones for them.
Another thing we should be looking at is in northeast Syria, that's an area that's controlled by the Kurds. There's hotels and hospitals and airports, and a lot of the Syrians could be resettled there if we gave the Kurds what they needed in terms of military equipment to be able to defend them.
Somehow, we don't seem to want to give that to the Kurds unless they're doing a specific operation with us. I think that's stupid. They're very reliable, and they're good fighters.
HANNITY: Dr. Carson, you've taken a hit in the polls in the last couple of weeks. What -- as you analyze those polls, what do you make of it? It seems to be nationally, Iowa and New Hampshire. Do you think that maybe it's a mistake that you've made or you think something has happened? What do you think's happened?
CARSON: Well, you know, I've been just blistered by the media with any possible thing. I think it's unprecedented. But you know, polls go up and down, and I don't get terribly excited by them. You know, when I was riding high and people asked me about it, I said the same thing. I said polls go up and down. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And I think you will see them starting to go back up again.
HANNITY: All right, Dr. Carson, always appreciate your time. Thank you, sir.
CARSON: Thank you, Sean.
HANNITY: And coming up next tonight right here on "Hannity"...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What Donald Trump said yesterday disqualifies him from serving as president.
REP. PAUL RYAN, R-WIS., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: What was proposed yesterday is not what this party stands for. And more importantly, it's not what this country stands for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: I think the person that should be disqualified from being president may be the guy that said that ISIS was contained, they were the JV team.
Anyway, politicians on both sides of the aisle taking shots at Donald Trump over his controversial plan. So will his plan hurt or help his campaign? Our panel will weigh in next.
And then later, we're going to show you what life is really like under sharia law, in this case Saudi Arabia. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has experienced the horrors firsthand and will be here later to explain.
Plus, Homeland Security chairman Mike McCaul. He says counterterrorism officials have identified individuals with terror ties who are trying to infiltrate the Syrian refugee community coming to America, and that it is a real, clear, present danger. That report coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity." So after introducing a controversial new proposal banning Muslims from entering the United States for a period of time, Donald Trump has faced an onslaught of criticism from both sides of the aisle. Here are some examples.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLY FIORINA, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're now going to violate the constitutional rights of citizens because of Donald Trump? I don't think so. I do not think that helps us defeat ISIS here at home or deny them territory abroad.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's a race- baiting, xenophobic religious bigot.
SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I disagree with that proposal.
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What Donald Trump said yesterday disqualifies him from serving as president.
RYAN: This is not conservatism. What was proposed yesterday is not what this party stands for, an, more importantly, it's not what this country stands for.
REP. DAVID JOLLY, R-FLA.: And it's time that my side of the aisle has one less candidate in the race for the White House. It is time for Donald Trump to withdraw from the race.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: And that's not all. Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton tweeted out, quote, "This is reprehensible, prejudiced and divisive. Donald Trump, you don't get it. This makes us less safe."
Here with reaction, national spokesman for the Trump campaign Katrina Pierson is with us, from The Washington Times, Charles Hurt. And from National Review, Rich Lowry is with us.
All right, let me start, Katrina, with you because you're with the Trump campaign. This is an important issue. I have a statement here in front of me. He said it would be somewhat temporary shutdown until our country's representatives figure out what is going on. And he said until we're able to determine and understand the problem. So he's talking about a period of time.
What specifically -- how long do you think that would take in order to vet them?
KATRINA PIERSON, TRUMP NATIONAL SPOKESMAN: Donald Trump is only saying, in light of San Bernardino, where you had someone who came in from a K-1 visa and still managed to thwart the system. So Donald Trump is just saying, OK, it's time to take a step back, put a pause on the infiltration until we have proper mechanisms in place, like the reforms we're talking about in Congress today.
HANNITY: Yes. I would have said it differently, Rich, than the way Donald Trump said it. But I look at Obama's top envoy to the coalition to defeat ISIS, General John Allen, and he said we should be conscious of this potential, that the refugee population will be infiltrated. James Comey, our FBI director, said it. Our director of national intelligence, James Clapper, said it. Our assistant FBI director Michael Steinbeck (ph) said it. The State Department spokesman, John Kirby, said it. The deputy national director of counterterrorism center, Nicholas Rasmussen (ph), said it. And we're going to have Congressman McCaul, Homeland Security chairman in the House -- he said that ISIS has a plot to infiltrate that community.
To me, if he would have explained it that way, I don't think it would have been as controversial.
RICH LOWRY, FOX NEWSCONTRIBUTOR: Yes, the security concern is entirely understandable. We should be tapping the brakes on these visa programs, especially associated with any of these countries that have a terrorism problem. And I think we need less Muslim immigration and less legal immigration generally.
I think the problem with the way he's set this out are twofold. One, if you're going to stop an upstanding individual and say, Well, you know what? You cannot come in this country because of your religious faith, that's going to strike a lot of people as insidious and even anti-American.
(CROSSTALK)
LOWRY: One last point, Sean. You don't want to communicate a generalized hostility to all Muslims because if you're going to do the sort of surveillance we need to do within this country, you need the cooperation of all those communities.
HANNITY: But of all of these intelligence people, smart people, our own government is telling us that we can't possibly vet them, that there's a risk of allowing, in the case of Syrian refugees, into this country. David French (ph), who writes for you at National Review, had a very long, well-thought-out piece with a lot of polling to back up and suggest that the idea that there are few extremists is a myth.
Do you agree with David French?
LOWRY: Oh, yes. There's a huge problem in the Muslim world and...
HANNITY: That they hate us. They want to kill us. They want to destroy us.
LOWRY: Right. And the way I think about it, Sean -- we have this debate constantly among ourselves. Is Islam a religion of peace? It is for Muslims to decide whether Islam is a religion of peace or not. And if enough of them do, then eventually, you cut off the oxygen to all the extremists and you win this long ideological war. But we're not anywhere close to that yet.
HANNITY: I didn't hear in Donald Trump's statement that he was saying that American Muslims or American servicemen that are Muslim couldn't come back into the country. What I heard him say is those people that come from countries that live under sharia, which directly contradict our constitutional republic and the values we hold...
LOWRY: Right.
HANNITY: We need to have a vetting system that we know is working.
LOWRY: But consider, Sean, the case -- and my colleague, David French, who served in Iraq, brings this example up. What of the Iraqi interpreter who's risked life and limb to serve alongside our guys, actually fighting...
HANNITY: Yes.
LOWRY: ... the jihad. Are we not going to let him in because he's a Muslim?
HANNITY: I think the answer is no in that case. I don't think that's what he was referring to. But he probably needs more details to back this up. Charles Hurt, what is your reaction to all of this?
HURT: I find it amazing that so many people, political prognosticators and people in Washington are so stunned to hear Donald Trump say something like this. We've had seven years of a president who has not taken radical Islamic terrorism seriously, so much so that he won't even call it what it is, won't even call the enemy what they are. We've had seven years of a president who has not taken border security seriously at all. And we've had seven years of this political correctness that has people being called bigots and racists because they're genuinely concerned about radical Islamic terrorism.
HANNITY: I agree with all that. All right, guys, thank you all for being with us. We're out of time. I appreciate it.
Now, we're going to examine up close and personal what is life like growing up under Sharia law, for example, in Saudi Arabia. Ayaan Hirsi Ali will join us with an eye-opening interview. She is coming up next.
Then later tonight, our fears have now become reality. Radical Islamists targeting our nation's refugee program in order to enter the U.S. The House Homeland Security Committee chairman is here with a terrifying report you do not want to miss, straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ADAM HOUSLEY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Fox News alert. I'm Adam Housley in Redlands, California, where the search continues for clues into the attack last week that killed 14 people by two terrorists here in southern California. We're now told by authorities they believe Tashfeen Malik, the wife and murderer, was radicalized before she became a U.S. citizen and before she came to the United States.
They also say that her husband, Syed Farook, also was radicalized before he left and before they got married. Both of them apparently, according to reports, pledged allegiance to ISIS online after the attacks, and there is still a very stringent and very vigorous domestic investigation taking place, including talking to other people that may have been radicalized here in southern California. That comes as Syed's father has been added to the terror watch list.
Stick with Fox for all the latest on this. Until then I'm Adam Housley. Now back to "Hannity."
HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." So what is life really like under Sharia law? It's a topic we talk a lot about on this program. And my next guest is someone who knows the brutality of it, unfortunately, better than most. Joining us now is the author of "Heretic, Why Islam Needs Reformation Now," human rights activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Ayaan, can you just tell everybody, you lived under Sharia law. Where did you live under Sharia?
AYAAN HIRSI ALI, "HERETIC" AUTHOR: Well, the most extreme Sharia law taken its logical conclusion was in Saudi Arabia. And when I lived there, it hasn't really changed that much in terms of the application of the law, is as a woman, you are the property of your male guardian. You are covered from head to toe. You are banished from the public unless you have a male guardian with you. For punishment -- you know, people are punished in the public square. If you express your doubts about whether you believe in this religion or not, you are subjected to --
HANNITY: Yes, I know in Saudi Arabia, women can't drive. Women can't be seen in public without a male relative. Women must dress a certain way. Is it true that marital rape is not recognized as rape in Saudi Arabia?
ALI: Marital rape is not recognized because once you are married, you are your husband's property. Marital rape is not recognized. And they think if you say such things as marital rape that you are sinning and committed a crime and you'll be punished accordingly.
Living in Saudi Arabia, I, you know -- I look at what the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria is doing and I'm thinking what is really the difference between our friends and partners and allies in Saudi Arabia and what the Islamic State is doing? It's exactly what they believe. These people are executing it to the letter.
HANNITY: So if we talk about gender rights violations in Saudi Arabia under Sharia, it is a significant cultural difference from the way that women are treated here. Men -- women are not men's property. Women can dress as they choose, they can drive, they can vote. Women, you know, don't need -- you know, there is such a thing as marital rape, for example. So my question is, if you grow up, if somebody grows up under Sharia, and Saudi Arabia, we take a lot of students in on student visas and people come from Saudi Arabia, are we risking, the United States of America, bringing people in that hold on to those values, that were indoctrinated into those values, is there a risk factor for the American people that they want to bring those values with them?
ALI: Absolutely there is a risk factor. And there's a risk factor as we've seen with this woman Tashfeen Malik who is of Pakistani origin who lived in Saudi Arabia.
But there are also Saudis, like Raif Badawi, who is now in prison, who was sentenced to 1,000 lashes for his opinion. There are Saudis who want this changed. The only thing is they cannot use -- within Saudi Arabia there's no platform for them to express their doubts about Sharia and about jihad and about radical Islam.
So that is, for us, that's the balancing game. We want to side with people like Raif, but we want to keep people like Tashfeen out. How do we do that? The only way to do that is to get rid of the political correctness, call a spade a spade, and have an open conversation about who is on our side and who is not.
HANNITY: So Sharia conflicts directly with Americans' constitutional form of government, our constitutional republic. So now the question is --
ALI: Absolutely.
HANNITY: Donald Trump made these comments that until we can properly vet those people that come from Muslim countries, he says, we ought to put a pause on this. Do you think that's the right thing to do in light of your knowledge of life in Saudi Arabia under Sharia law?
ALI: Well, I'm watching this whole firestorm about Mr. Trump's remarks now and in the past, and what I'm seeing is there are a lot of -- thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of Americans who agree with him. So it's not for me. I've been a politician myself. When I look at leaked election cycles, I don't so much focus on the candidate. I focus on whether they strike a note within the population. And in America, there is -- you know, there's -- America has a sense of alarm.
HANNITY: It really comes down to a question of can you ascertain in any way whether somebody wants to bring those radical views that they were indoctrinated in under Sharia or do they want the breath of freedom? And I don't know how you ascertain what's in somebody's heart. So that's a pretty complicated question.
ALI: It's a complicated question, but also we are now living in a complicated context where we have had so much political correctness. We have silenced people's sentiments, and now this is all exploding. And I think that the best way to approach this is to have a national conversation that is mature, that is decent about this.
And I don't know if we're going to do that within an election cycle, if each and every party is going to do it in their own separate ways. But what is really needed is -- let me put it very bluntly. We cannot defeat Islamic terrorism unless we address adequately Islamic totalitarianism. That's what it boils down to. And we can do that in a mature way, and I don't know if an election cycle is the place to do it.
HANNITY: I really appreciate your words of wisdom. Thank you so much.
And coming up next tonight right here on HANNITY.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, R-TEXAS: The United States government has information to indicate that individuals tied to terrorist groups in Syria have already attempted to gain access to our country through the U.S. refugee program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: ISIS wants to infiltrate the refugee program. A chilling warning from the House Homeland Security chairman, and people with ties to terrorists, they're trying to get into America through the refugee program. He'll explain, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAUL: I can reveal today that the United States government has information to indicate that individuals tied to terrorist groups in Syria have already attempted to gain access to our country through the U.S. refugee program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: That was House Homeland Security Chairman Mike McCaul yesterday issuing a dire warning about our national security. He joins us now to explain. If you could now reveal today that our government has information indicating that ISIS or Al Qaeda, those with terror ties, have already tried to infiltrate the refugee population, isn't that a real, clear, and present danger to every American to allow these people in?
MCCAUL: Well, I believe it does, Sean. I sent a letter to the DNI, FBI, secretary of homeland. The DNI, Director of National Intelligence, responded that the National Counterterrorism Center has identified -- and this is very, very important to your viewers -- has identified already individuals tied to terrorist organizations in Syria that want to exploit and get into the United States through the refugee process. Some of these have been stopped, but my concern is if we allow this program to go forward, we could potentially be bringing ticking time-bombs into the United States that could perpetrate terrorist attacks.
HANNITY: Would you go as far as to say that the president insisting on taking these refugees in spite of what I assume are intelligence assessments that you're reading, that he's gambling with the lives of the American people?
MCCAUL: I think he's playing Russian Roulette with national security. And the fact is, when you have the FBI director, who testified before my committee, the secretary of Homeland Security to talk about the lack of a vetting process, first and foremost we have to protect the safety of Americans. We're a humanitarian nation, but let's get this thing right before we start bringing in tens of thousands of Syrians. That is why the bill I introduced in the House that passed overwhelmingly has to pass in the Senate. And if the president vetoes it, we have a veto proof majority in the House to override that.
HANNITY: Congressman, based on what you have said and General Allen has said and James Comey has said and Michael Steinbeck has said and Nicolas Rasmussen has said and John Kirby has said, do you think that Donald Trump's idea that we don't have this vetting system down in any way -- look at the case of a woman in Saudi Arabia, had a Pakistani passport, gave the wrong address, nobody caught it. Do you think it's wise -- and look what happened in Paris. ISIS infiltrated the refugee population there. Do you think it might be a good idea until we get a hold of this to put a pause on it? In other words, do you think Trump has a point?
MCCAUL: We did this with the Iraq refugee process. We put a hold on it. I think we have to do it in this case because ISIS in their own words has said they want to exploit it to infiltrate the west. Now we have our intelligence community reporting to me that specific individuals now are trying to get into the United States through this program. It would be highly irresponsible for me to be complicit with a federal program that could bring terrorists into the United States at this particular time.
HANNITY: Do you think it should be expanded into people that grow up in these countries under very strict sharia law, that persecute women, that kill gays and lesbians? I'm surprised more liberals aren't outraged. But if you grow up under sharia and you want to come America, how do we know whether or not you want to assimilate and become an American or whether or not you want to bring your values with you?
MCCAUL: You've identified the problem. We don't have enough intelligence on the ground in Syria, or Iraq, for that matter. The jihad movement is spreading throughout northern Africa. And so we have to have a more robust process national security vetting process before we bring any of these refugees into the United States. I will say 2,000 of them have been brought in already, and we don't have the ability to monitor them. I think we need to put a pause on the program, put the brakes on it, pass my legislation to ensure the safety of Americans. I've had this both publicly and privately from the intelligence community and law enforcement that this poses a serious and imminent threat to the United States.
HANNITY: If it's Russian Roulette, I think the lives and the safety of the American people need to come first. So until people like you and our FBI director and all the other people I mentioned, our national director of intelligence, until they say it's safe, I agree with you, a pause is the prudent thing to do. Sir, thank you for being with us. Appreciate your good work.
MCCAUL: Thank you, Sean, I appreciate it.
HANNITY: When we come back, our "Ask Sean" segment is next. Plus, we need your help with tonight's very important "Question of the Day," straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HANNITY: Time for our "Question of the Day." So what do you think of Donald Trump's proposal to put a temporary hold on immigration from Muslim countries? Go to Facebook.com/SeanHannity, @SeanHannity on Twitter, let us know what you think.
By the way, time for our "Ask Sean" segment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that there will be a breaking point in which the mainstream media will have to be honest about the millions and millions of Muslims around the world who are ISIS sympathizers, or will it continue to push an agenda that this has nothing to do with Islam?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Well, first of all, journalism is dead. I don't trust most the main stream media. I don't think they go out of their way to tell you the truth. I think they all have agendas. And so that is not where I'm getting my information from.
This is a very legitimate question. And when I talk about someone that grows up under sharia law, whose values are the antithesis of those values we hold dear, for example, women's rights as one example, I think we have to factor in whether or not they're coming here to assimilate, to become Americans, become part of the family, or whether they still hold on to some of those ideas of which they were indoctrinated into and the culture they grow up in.
It's a very hard question to answer and it's a lot more complicated than the media would have you believe. And I think the safety of Americans has to come first.
That is all the time we have left this evening. Thank you for being with us as always. We'll see you back here tomorrow night.
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