Rep. McCaul talks unanswered questions on Austin bombings
Homeland Security Chairman Congressman Mike McCaul represents Texas's 10th congressional district, which includes the city of Austin. He joins Martha with the latest from Austin, Texas on 'The Story.'
This is a rush transcript from "The Story," March 21, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Good evening. Thanks, Bret. So, we begin with this Fox News Alert. We are awaiting a news conference; we're going to get this any moment in Austin at the Austin police headquarters. We do hope we're going to get some answers to the countless questions tonight about this 23-year-old man from a 'good, Christian family', whose friends and loved ones apparently never noticed anything amiss. While he was quietly building a bomb room inside his house. And then sending explosives to innocent victims in boxes that were marked 'Kelly Killmore'. It ended this morning. He blew himself up in a ditch on the side of I-35. And tonight, the FBI is determined to get answers.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's primarily one room that has -- got a considerable amount of material.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it safe to assume that whoever lived in that house had to have known what with us going on and what was being built in that room?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, that's a difficult question to answer, to know what people knew.
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MACCALLUM: And what was going on here? Neighbors say he was smart, he was polite. His grandmother called him a peaceful, deep thinker. And the aunt saying that he is not the young man that she knew.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was at my Christmas table. He was a great kid. He was smart. He was loving. He was kind. I have no idea who this person is.
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MACCALLUM: Wow! What a story. Trace Gallagher joins us now in our West Coast Newsroom with what we've learned today about this young man. Trace?
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Martha, in the minutes leading up to his final moments, investigators say the bomber Mark Anthony Conditt made a key mistake by turning on his cell phone and allowing the police to track him to a hotel about 20 minutes outside of Austin. A SWAT team surrounded the hotel and called for help but Conditt drove away before the units arrived. Then, just miles down the road, the suspect pulled off the highway and into a ditch. Watch.
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BRIAN MANLEY, AUSTIN POLICE CHIEF: As members of the Austin Police Department SWAT Team approached the vehicle, the suspect detonated a bomb inside the vehicle, knocking one of our SWAT Officers back and one of our SWAT Officers fired at the suspect as well.
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GALLAGHER: The police say, the detonation is apparently what killed him. And we now know that closing in on the killer was a feat of forensic technology. In fact, well before the police identified Mark Conditt as the bomber, authorities had whittled the suspect pool using cell phone site analysis. The process of listing individuals who were in the areas of the bombing when they exploded. Then, there were the bombs themselves which reportedly used exotic batteries from Asia ordered online. A signature trait that allowed investigators to link the various explosives to the same buyer. The final piece of the puzzle appears to be surveillance video showing Conditt wearing a blonde wig and gloves, taking packages to a FedEx store outside of Austin on Sunday. And in a brutal play on words, there are reports that Conditt addressed one of the bombs using the name 'Kelly Killmore.' Now, it's all about finding a motive. Listen.
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GOV. GREG ABBOTT, R—TEXAS: I think there is a treasure trove of information in his house as well as digital information that should shed light more upon who he is, what he was doing, and why he was doing it.
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GALLAGHER: Part of the digital information Governor Abbott is talking about is the blog Conditt wrote for a U.S. government class at Austin Community College in 2012 where he says he thinks he's conservative and opposes gay marriage. Conditt also wrote about an Al Qaeda terrorist saying he should 'get a life sentence twice over'. And about the death penalty he writes, 'Living criminals harm and murder again -- executed ones do not.' Inside Conditt's home, police found a bomb room filled with a "considerable amount of the home made explosive material consistent with the other devices." His two roommates have been questioned about what they knew or what they suspected. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you very much. Here now, Texas Congressman, Mike McCaul, Chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, he represents Austin. Good to see you tonight, Chairman McCaul. Your thoughts on all that has transpired in this case today in your hometown?
REP. MIKE MCCAUL, R—TEXAS, CHAIRMAN OF THE HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Well, this individual terrorized my hometown for almost a month. And now the nightmare is over, now it's time to heal. I've been working closely with the FBI, ATF, my local police chief on this matter. I'm glad that we have justice in this case for closure for the victims and their families, but there are still many remaining unanswered questions, especially, why? I think that's the question most people are asking in Austin -- why did this happen?
MACCALLUM: You know, in terms of the effort to track him down, and we're learning so much tonight about the cell phone, site gathering information that they had, tracking these batteries online. Really, it sounds like some really extraordinary police work.
MCCAUL: I think, you know, I've seen a lot of the cases. You and I talked about the Boston bombing way back when, it didn't work so well back in that case. This is one of the best law enforcement responses I've seen at the federal state local level. You're right, this Asian battery was in all the devices that tracked us -- that's how we knew it was the same bomber attached to the bombs. But then, in addition, we have a really good technology that leaves digital footprints wherever you go with your phone, such a way that we were able to track the bomber. And the final fatal mistake he made was to walk in to the FedEx office where we got surveillance video of him. He walked out, got in a red Mazda truck, which we had leads previously had been at the scene of other bombing sites. We got the license plate tag. And then, when he turned on his phone, we got a ping and we knew that's where he was. That is when the SWAT team descended on him.
MACCALLUM: You know, any indication from what you're learning, from the people you're talking to there on the ground in terms of motive? This blog, anything else that they might've found so far on his social media footprint?
MCCAUL: That's the unanswered question that everybody wants to know the answer to. They're conducting a sweep of the home, a search of the home as I speak. They had to get the bomb-making materials out of the house. They evacuated the area. There had been robotics in. But right now, they're taking the hard drive of the computers. Any social media will be very valuable, I think, in this case to find out: number one, what was his motive; and number two, did he have accomplices like his roommates who have been detained for questioning?
MACCALLUM: Yes, that's big questions. Just before I let you go, is there any indication that there's any more boxes out there?
MCCAUL: The Austin Police Department, I talked to the chief minutes ago, they're still urging as is ATF, urging caution for the next couple of days while we can sweep the area. There were addresses found like a target list of the future possible targets. Those homes have been swept and they were cleared, but there is still a threat of these explosive devices out there in the Austin area.
MACCALLUM: Thank you very much, Chairman McCaul. Always good to see you. Thank you very much.
MCCAUL: Thank you.
MACCALLUM: All right. Let's go to this news conference to see what we can pick up here in Austin.
MANLEY: The significant attack that took place on the community over three weeks. Anything that has resulted in the occurrences last night where we took the suspect in this incident, and I'm going to address first the people that we have with us. We have the honorable, the Governor Greg Abbott. We're also joined by honorable Mayor Steve Adler, the City of Austin. We've got the U.S. attorney for the Western District, District Attorney Margaret Moore. Special Agent In-Charge of the FBI, Christopher Combs. Special Agent In-Charge of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Fred Milanowski. We also have the Deputy U.S. Marshall Darren Sartin. And Colonel Steven McCraw of Texas DPS, along with other members of the executive teams from the law enforcement agencies.
This community is well aware of the incidents that have taken place beginning on March 2nd. And governor, I will just let you know that as the police chief in Austin facing the daunting task of taking on an investigation like that in our community that has never seen something like this was made easy and possible by the assistance we got from the federal partners. We saw a level of federal participation from the ATF and the FBI that is unprecedented in the community with over 500 agents that were focused on bringing peace back our community. But I want to focus on a couple of the additional information that we have today based on the ongoing investigation. And again, I will say this: this is an ongoing. We have, at this point, located a recording that the suspect in this incident made. It is about 25-minute recording where he talks about what he has done. I would classify this as a confession. This was on a phone that we found in his possession early this morning after we had the officer- involved shooting after he detonated that bomb that he had with him.
On this recording, the suspect describes the six bombs that he constructed with a level of specificity that he identified the differences among those six bombs. They we have told you all along that they all had similarities, which they did as far as specific components but there were also differences between them. And on this recording, he identified what those differences were. I know everybody is interested in a motive and understanding why, and we are never going to be able to put a ration behind these acts. But what I can tell you having listened to that recording, he does not at all mention anything about terrorism, nor does he mention anything about hate. But instead, it is the outcry of a very challenged young man talking about challenges in his personal life that led him to this point.
Based on what we heard on the recording, he described the six devices and we have recovered those six devices. He also describes the seventh device -- that being the one he had on him early this morning that he detonated as our officers approached causing the explosion and the ultimate officer- involved shooting that took place. We still want our community to remain vigilant as we always should, given the day and time in which we live now. But I also want to let the community know that he described seven explosive devices, and we have identified and no longer in play -- those seven devices. So, I think it's important we put that out and that the community be aware. We do want to remain vigilant but we have accounted for the devices we have known about. And with that I'm going to turn it over to the honorable Governor Greg Abbott for comments. Thank you.
ABBOTT: Well, chief, thank you very much for what you just shared, but also thank you very much for what you have done and demonstrated over the past few weeks. You know, there's a phrase that is used sometimes very casually, that sometimes turns out to be very poignant. And that is, sometimes people refer to the local police officers as 'the finest', such as 'Austin's finest' when they're talking about the Austin police officers. This is demonstrative. Why people say that? We saw in this situation, the Austin's finest, Austin's police officer galvanized and worked tirelessly together over the past few weeks to solve one of the most heinous crimes that ever existed in Austin, Texas, and in the process literally saving lives. And importantly, they did so in a way that achieved maximum response by working so collaboratively with law enforcement at every single level. This entire effort benefited tremendously by the overwhelming support that was provided to us here at the local level by the federal government at multiple areas of expertise.
And of course, the State of Texas directed by Steve McCraw and the Texas Department of Public Safety was proud to assist in the effort also. But candidly, in my time as 12 years as attorney general and three years as governor, I have not seen a better job than what we've seen from this police chief and Austin police force, ensuring that they took every step they could to locate and apprehend, if possible alive, the treacherous, evil criminal who committed these acts. And speaking for the chief as well as all the members of his force, as well as the Texas Department of Public Safety, as well as everybody involved in this, there was one motivating factor to ensure that we got up every day, if in fact, we ever went to sleep any night. And that was to do everything we can to live up to the magnitude of the loss that was suffered. We can never forget the victims. They include: Anthony House, Dreland Mason, Esperanza Herrera, and other two yet unidentified victims. But what we don't know is how many more victims there would've been, had it not been for the courageous efforts of law enforcement combined.
We will take away from this the importance of being able to respond quickly, but also lessons learned to make sure that heinous, inexplicable bombing actions by a crazed mad man will be able to be minimized because of the way that law enforcement has been galvanized to ensure that we will keep our community safe. So chief, on behalf of everybody across the entire state of Texas, I want to say thank you for a job well done, for what you and your entire team has done. And today, we proudly back the blue in Austin, Texas. And I'm also proud of the man who is the lead chief executive for the city of Austin. A man who has shared the effort of responding to this challenge, maintaining peace in our community, and that is Mayor Adler, who is with us here today. Mayor, I would like to toss it to you.
STEVE ADLER, MAYOR OF AUSTIN: Governor, thank you. Our collective thoughts and prayers as a community --
MACCALLUM: All right. This is the mayor. We're going to keep monitoring this. When they ask questions, we're going to go back. But I do want to bring in Former FBI Agent James Fitzgerald, FBI Criminal profiler who played a critical role catching the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. Big news coming out of this news conference tonight, Jim. 25-minute recording that he made on his bone. Obviously, that is the manifesto, the explanation that everybody has been looking for, but we didn't learn a whole lot about -- we learned what he didn't say, nothing about terrorism, nothing about hate. And the chief of police said that it was an outcry of a challenged young man that focused on his personal life. Your thoughts?
JAMES FITZGERALD, FORMER FBI CRIMINAL PROFILER: Sure, Martha, and we've heard this before even with the school shooters or snipers. These people have individual, you know, long-term problems, psychological issues. And if they have access to a gun, they may use that. If they have access to bomb-making materials, they will utilize that. If it's driving a truck into a crowd, they'll utilize that. But boy, I'll tell you, when -- the more I'm hearing today about this guy, he's so fits description of a classic serial bomber or a serial sniper. Look, Cho at Virginia tech, he sent off videotapes to a news network explaining why he did what he did. When we went inside Kaczynski's cabin in Montana in 1996, there were long journals, autobiographies, explaining every part of his bombs and how he did it, and why he did it. A guy in Utah and in Illinois in 2006, he wrote letters to chief of police why he set off two different bombs explaining how they were constructed. Eric Rudolph did the same thing with this Army of guide letter. So, it's almost like these guys are following a script one after another, but it has to do with deep-rooted psychological issues that they don't know how to manifest them in other ways -- they have to clear people.
MACCALLUM: And clearly, he wants to, you know, indicate his intelligence in some way, right? All of them want to explain, this how I did it, how I got away with it, this is how I crafted it. The chief talked about the fact that he detailed each of the devices he made, the differences between each of those devices, which was also, we hope, helpful, if he was truthful about the number of devices that he built.
FITZGERALD: Yes, let's hope it's that exact number. It sounds like there were other components in his room. And again, that's no surprise. I've worked other serial offender cases, maybe rapist, killers, whatever, they would have separate room or a big trunk in the basement that was under lock and key and no one could go in. So, I'm not giving any defenses to the two roommates here, maybe they should've seen something or said something, but it's also possible these items of death that were components to make these bombs were somehow even hidden within that room itself, which was perhaps under lock and key.
MACCALLUM: I would expect that in the coming days -- hours and days, although we have heard him portrayed as quiet, polite, someone who was loved by his family that through social media, through these writings, we're going to learn more about why he was described as a challenged young man with a deep personal problem.
FITZGERALD: Well, as they say, still water runs deep. And -- but on the surface, you may not notice something right away but just a few inches or few feet down, there are these lingering ongoing problems that only his family will know. And upon undertaking a psychological autopsy, which is what the profilers and behavioral folks, my former teammates in the FBI, is what they're doing right now. They're trying to do everything to get into what influenced this guy. Who's he talked to? What T.V. shows? What movies he watched? What does he read? What's he downloading online? What's he researching on the computer? These are going to paint a pretty vivid picture of this guy. And hopefully, we'll have that in a few weeks or a month or two.
MACCALLUM: In the terms of the victims and the targets, we did not learn a lot from the chief. And as I said, if he's answering questions, we're going to go back. Anthony House, Dreland Mason, both killed by these bombs. Esperanza Herrera, a 75-year-old woman who's in critical condition and then the two other young men who were on their bikes. You know, in terms of whether or not he specifically targeted them, whether the address was what was on the box, that's a big question still here, Jim.
FITZGERALD: It is. And well, we'll have to determine this down the line. I still say victimology in any one of the cases can be important. And they're going to have keep looking into any nexus or connections between the people, the victims, and the bomber himself. That's no surprise -- it wouldn't be surprising if, in fact, there is some kind of a linkage. In fact, I think the bomber lived in the same town where Mr. House used to live -- the victim from March 2nd. So, is there a connection there through that town? Who knows? We may find this out before long.
MACCALLUM: James Fitzgerald, thank you very much. Good to talk to you tonight, sir.
FITZGERALD: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: You bet. All right. So, also breaking tonight, new speculation that the president may be prepared to fire a member of someone on his close national security team for leaking to the Washington Post that President Trump went against his national security adviser's advice by congratulating Russian President Vladimir Putin on his re-election and that he either didn't follow their instructions or chose to ignore them. But in that close environment, of those dealing with these very high-level discussions and questions, who would leak that information? That's one of the big questions tonight. Chief National Correspondent Ed Henry live at the White House with us on this developing story from there tonight. Hi, Ed.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Good to see you, Martha. Officials here making it clear the president is livid about this particular leak. He had already been complaining for over a year now about the so-called deep state; what he calls the Obama holdovers from within the government trying to undermine him, and that could be the case here. On the other hand, what's more worrisome for them is that it could be a Trump appointee trying to undermine him, they simply don't know which is why they're investigating. The Chief of Staff John Kelly thought he had weeded out the leakers after a series of recent exits, but our own John Roberts is hearing Kelly is "frustrated and deeply disappointed" because clearly, they still have at least one mole. They're particularly angry over how detailed this leak was about the call between the president and Vladimir Putin.
The Washington Post reporting the president ignored briefing materials that said in all caps 'do not congratulate Putin.' Only a small number of senior aides have access to those very note card. Note cards likely printed out outside the office of the National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster, and then passed onto the president. So, they're probing which person along that information chain leaked the material. One senior White House officials saying, this is not only fireable offense but it might actually be illegal. The president late today sharply defended his decision to congratulate Putin saying despite their differences, he wants a cordial relationship so Russia can help with ISIS, North Korea, Iran, Syria. And while Former Democratic Cabinet Official, Leon Panetta, said today, he believes the president should've been more aggressive about pressing Putin about the meddling in the 2016 election, plus, so as allegations that Russia used nerve gas in the U.K. These former Clinton and Obama officials seem to agree with the president that he needs to work with the adversaries.
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LEON PANETTA, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Presidents talk to kings, and emperors, and tyrants, regardless of whether or not they were elected with any kind of Democratic process or not. So, I think the president has a right to talk to Putin, and to obviously see if there are areas that they can agree with.
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HENRY: In fact, Panetta's former boss, President Barack Obama, congratulated Putin on his last election victory in 2012 and there was no media storm. And who can forget that Mr. Obama was caught on a hot mic during his own re-election in 2012, saying that he'd have more flexibility to deal with Vladimir after he got. Again, not the same kind of media storm. Martha?
MACCALLUM: Ed, thank you very much. Ed Henry at the White House tonight. So, President Trump defending himself against the backlash of his congratulations to Vladimir Putin on his election. Here's Senator Rubio's take on the controversy last night.
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SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R—FLORIDA: I would not, me personally, would not have congratulated him. I thought that would be a mistake, because he didn't win an election. He had -- all his opponents were in jail. He picked the two people that ran against him. There was no way he was going to lose.
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MACCALLUM: So, the president responded this way a short while ago. He tweeted this: 'I called President Putin of Russia to congratulate him on his election victory. In past, Obama called him also. The fake news media is crazed because they wanted me to excoriate him. They are wrong! Getting along with Russia and others is a good thing, not a bad thing. They can help solve problems with North Korea, Syria, Ukraine, ISIS, Iran, and even the coming arms race. Bush tried to get along but the didn't have the 'smarts'. Obama and Clinton tried,' he writes, 'but didn't have the energy or chemistry. Remember reset, peace through strength.'
Here now with his take on all of this and how we should be treating the Russian leader, General Jack Keane, Chairman of the Institute for the Study of War and Fox News Senior Strategic Analyst. General, good to see you tonight. Thanks for being here.
GEN. JACK KEANE, RET., FOX NEWS SENIOR STRATEGIC ANALYST AND CHAIRMAN OF THE INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF WAR: Good to see you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: First of all, the president's reaction; what do you make of his defense of his congratulations?
KEANE: Well, you know, I understand his defense. If I was one of his advisers, I would have no problem with him reaching out to Putin but I would not have used this vehicle, you know, congratulating him on the election, which is a rigged farcical election to do that. But I think the president's instincts are: I wanted to reach out to Putin with no liability assessed; you know, I don't haven't to give him anything, I just want to renew the relationship. You know, I think his instincts about talking to Putin are probably right. And this national security team around him and the president has underscored the fact that they know full well that Russia is trampling on U.S. and our allies' national interest around the world, particularly in the Middle East and in Europe. They're trying to break NATO and the transatlantic alliance. They clearly see Russia as an adversary, not just a competitor. So, that's the foundation.
But I think when it comes to the president personally, Martha, I mean, he's very aware that this guy, Putin, has manipulated our three previous presidents quite successfully. And I think our president is itching to get in the room with him and deal with him, because he trusts his owning instinct and his own skills. And I don't think for a minute that talking to Putin means appeasing the Russians. We've had appeasing the Russians by the president's predecessor for eight years to include the Chinese and Iranians, et cetera. I don't believe that's going to be the foundation. But I also think that the president trusts himself, has confidence in himself, has confidence in the team around him, that he wants to go in there and see if he can work something out. It's likely, it will not happen in terms of something substantive and tangible where the world is going to change and it's going to be more stable as a result of, but it's possible. And I think we should give him the opportunity to try that.
MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean, I think every president believes that they're going to be the president to change this dynamic. The jury is still out whether or not this president can do that. And as you say, he definitely has a lot of confidence in his own ability to negotiate, and he feels that he can go in there and put up a strong front and deal with Vladimir Putin. We'll see, you know, what takes place at the meeting. In the terms of -- you just mentioned his national security team. Now, everybody, sort of, puts themselves in the room on this when they hear this story that they handed him notes before the phone call, some of it was done over the phone, apparently, according to the reports. And it said, 'do not congratulate Putin', according to Washington Post story in caps, across one of these cards. Your take on the fact that we know about the story, first of all. I that's probably the primary question, because, obviously, they're very angry about this at the White House.
KEANE: Yes, well, I'm assuming, you know, trust in a Washington Post story, that's another matter in itself. But it is a fact that early on in the administration, for months, they had huge problems with leaks -- a lot of those were from Obama holdovers and others. And I think, something the chief of staff, General Kelly, has policed a lot of this up. And I think if this is actually a fact that someone, you know, close to the president released this information, they've got every right to be outraged by that. It's classified information to be sure -- violating the trust of a president of the United States, and separating yourself from that president because you may, in fact, have a disagreement with him. Then, go someplace else with your life, you know, if you don't want to, you know, provide loyalty and service to the president. You've got the right to disagree with him, but you don't have a right once he makes the decision to undermine the decision. That is where the problem is here, and I hope Kelly can find this guy or gal. Not only, only fire them, but put them in front of the prosecution.
MACCALLUM: General Jack Keane, thank you very much, sir. Good to see you tonight as always.
KEANE: Good talking to you.
MACCALLUM: All right. As promised, we are watching this news conference that is underway in Austin when authorities begin to take questions from the reporters, we're going to take you there live. Then, shocking! Brand new video in of the deadly self-driving Uber car, crashing into a pedestrian. This has just come in. What the human backup driver in the car was doing at that moment? Plus, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg's defense for selling a private information of 50 million users for the political purposes but admits that they've known about the problem for years but Team Trump never got the data. So, why is no one reporting that part of the story? Karl Rove and Mark Penn, coming up.
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MARTHA MACCALLUM, THE STORY HOST: So we have this brand new video that is just in for Fox News of that deadly crash involving a self-driving Uber car. This is the dash cam footage. This is awful. This 49-year-old woman, Elaine Herzberg, was bicycling across and was hit on the street in Tempe, Arizona. And here's the footage inside the self-driving car. The human backup driver, which they have in all these test vehicles, is supposed to be able to take over if anything goes wrong, is seen looking down throughout the beginning part of this tape. It also came out this week that the Uber driver -- that this driver, 44-year-old, Rafael Vasquez, despite having been convicted felon, served four years in prison for armed robbery, is the person behind the wheel of this car. And I think you just saw the reaction when they realized what had just happened is unbelievable. Obviously, Uber has a lot of reparations to do for this awful, awful tragedy in this woman's death.
All right. Changing our tune here as we move forward on The Story tonight, so while many are hyperventilating over the behavior bending abilities of Facebook on unsuspecting Americans, the founder of the social media behemoth, which arguably has an enormous impact with two billion users, may have mea culpa today, promising to change their ways and to protect your privacy. But is there another angle to this story? Is this whole thing part of another chapter in the effort to try to explain how Donald Trump could've possibly won the election? First, Facebook had to confess that they allowed $100,000 ad spend by the Russians. Now, they're on bended knee for selling the data of 50 million Facebook viewers and their friends. And the outrage over that is justifiable. But the suggestion by some that this must be how Trump won the White House as this editorial in the New York Times today points out, the liberal establishment fixation on Facebook 2016 sins.
First, the transmission of fake news, and now the exploitation of its data by the Trump campaign, still feels like a classic example of blaming something new because it's new, when it's the old thing that mattered more. The writer is referring there to the power of good old-fashioned television and Trump's domination of it. So what is really at work here? Karl Rove, former deputy chief of staff under President George W. Bush, and Fox News Contributor, and Mark Penn, a presidential pollster and advisor to Bill and Hillary Clinton, he's also the author of the new book, Micro Trends, the small forces behind tomorrow's big changes. Gentlemen, welcome. Good to have you here. So your thoughts -- Karl, let me start with you. Your thoughts on the big picture here, on the mea culpa, and also the effort to, kind of, blame this as probably one of the reason that the Trump campaign was able to win?
KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, the digital campaign of both Hillary Clinton and of the Trump campaign, Donald Trump, did have an impact on the outcome of the election. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. But since, if we've looked at it, we would find that the Clinton campaign had spent far more money on their digital campaign than the Trump campaign did. And even if the Trump campaign did a much better job of targeting, my sense is that the impact of the two campaigns relative weight of advertising was probably distinctively in favor of Hillary Clinton. But message matters.
And at the end of the day, Donald Trump message in all forms of media, his personal appearance, TV, cable TV, print, mail, volunteers, digital campaign, was I am a candidate of change at a year of which 62 percent of the American people thought the country was seriously off on the wrong track. So, we've got a problem with Facebook. And Facebook has got a problem with Cambridge Analytics who may have, or it looks like, may have illegally used there a huge trove of data from Facebook. But let's be honest, what drove this election was a message of change that were represented in everything that Trump did. Versus the message of keep going just like we're doing and I'm entitled to it, which was Hillary Clinton's message.
MACCALLUM: Mark, what's your take on it?
MARK PENN, PRESIDENTIAL POLLSTER: Well, look, as I say in 'Microtrends,' I think this election was a fight between old economy voters and Silicon Valley voters. I think Silicon Valley has done very well in the last few years, and the old economy hadn't done well, and I think they spoke up. And I don't think the things with Facebook really played an important factor in this election. I think Facebook has a problem. It's a real image problem with its users that they're going to have to address. But I also think that Facebook is in the business of doing precisely this kind of targeting, taking a list of people, analyzing the list, finding likes for like is what they normally do. So they have a data problem. They've got to have to fix that data problem. But, let's remember, this is precisely what Facebook itself does for users.
MACCALLUM: So, in terms of Facebook and their responsibility, because there's a political side of which you've just address, and then there's the Facebook side of this, Karl. As human beings in 2018, I mean, every time we buy something you give over your information. I mean, don't we, sort of, give up our contract in some ways to our privacy? I mean, you know, it's a catch phrase that people say all the time. There is no such thing as real privacy in this world anymore.
ROVE: Right. Well, that's why one of the three things Zuckerberg talked about today in his mea culpa is important. Two of the things were less important. He says we're going to go back to all the apps that were in place before 2014, who might have collected the data before we put our new policies in place that would have stopped this kind of thing. And we're going to go back and look at those apps and do an audit if need be. Have people sign an agreement that they've destroyed data and so forth. But the most important thing that he said today was the number three point on his mea culpa, which is Facebook is going to develop a tool that allow every one of their users to basically say nobody can use my information. That is to say they can deny the apps the access to all those ancillary information, including their contact lists, and all their preferences, and likes, and so forth. All the material that uses -- that people use in order to develop a profile of each individual, Facebook user, and the people that they're associated with, and that tool is going to be at the top of the Facebook page, and they say they're going to allow Facebook -- the people to make that decision.
MACCALLUM: Guys, started from scratch, though, to sort of put back in the bottle everything that's out there. I'm sorry. We're really short on time because of what was going on in Austin. But I thank you both. We'll have you back. Thank you, gentlemen. Good to see you both.
ROVE: You bet, thank you.
MACCALLUM: So coming up next, former DNC chairwoman, Donna Brazile, is back and crying foul over President Trump's war on federal employees, as she puts it, like fired FBI Director Andrew McCabe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIRWOMAN: I think there's been a lot of gratuitous attacks on our federal employees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Is that true? Juan Williams joins me on that, and the battle for the soul of the Democratic Party, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So, Fox News alert, there's finally new congressman in Pennsylvania district 18. After more than a week after the vote, Republican Rick Saccone has now conceded his special election loss to Democratic rival Conor Lamb. Lamb tweeting a few moments ago, quote, just got off the phone with my opponent. Rick Saccone has congratulated me and graciously conceded last Tuesday's election. I congratulate him for a close hard-fought race and wish him the best. And meanwhile, in Illinois, last night, one of the last remaining pro-life blue-dog Democrats eked out a win against his progressive Democratic challenger who had been backed by Bernie Sanders and Kirsten Gillibrand. Yesterday, I asked former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, are there any pro-life Democrats who will be getting bug backing from the party going forward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIRWOMAN: Our party is a big tent party. We have pro-life Democrats. We have Democrats who respects a woman's right to choose. We believe that every American should have access to the full range of reproductive health services. So, whether you're pro-life or you're pro-choice, our party allows just about everybody to come in the door and to run in our primary contest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Joining me now, Juan Williams, co-host of The Five, and Fox News political analyst, to react to some of what Donna Brazile have to say last night. You know, I mean, it's an interesting question about where the party is going, because you have this pro-life, blue-dog Democrats who's basically primary by progressives on the left. What do you think?
JUAN WILLIAMS, THE FIVE CO-HOST: Well, I think it's really interesting on many fronts. One is, Susan B. Anthony people normally support the Republicans and people who are pro-life, came in and supported this Democrat. And if you go back in time, Martha, to people like Bob Casey. Remember, Bob Casey, former governor of Pennsylvania, did not feel welcome in the party. And you had so many women groups, especially, with this now #MeToo moment, who are saying that for us a woman's right to choose is a basic items, like a limpness test on the Democratic Party side. So, his victory last night stands out to me as an exception. I don't think it's the rule going forward.
MACCALLUM: Interesting. All right. Let's listen to this, because we were talking about Hillary Clinton and the comment that she's made recently about women voters. And here is a bit of an interview that she did in the Netherlands that I asked Donna Brazile about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: This is a question that Hillary Clinton was asked about Ivanka Trump. I want to play this for you and just get your reaction.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, Ivanka Trump wants to be first female president of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's not going to happen.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: No?
CLINTON: No.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come?
CLINTON: Well, we don't want any more inexperienced Trumps in the White House. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. And I think the American people have seen for themselves what happens when a reality TV candidate wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: What is your reaction to that, Donna?
BRAZILE: Well, besides laughing at the whole nature of the question. Look, I want to see a female president. I wish it was Hillary Clinton. I voted for her in the general election in 2016. I hope that we can, as a country, one day, look at the wonderful remarkable talent we have in this country. There're so many qualified women to run. And I hope one day that we're able, hopefully, as soon as 2020. We don't know. But, maybe soon we'll see a female president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: It's interesting to me because there's always all this talk on the Democratic side of wanting a female president, but only a Democrat female president. I mean, that's where the line gets drawn. And I think people vote on policy, I think they vote on economics. I think as a woman you want to have the freedom, obviously, to vote for whoever you want. Even though, Hillary Clinton, earlier this week said, a lot of women fall in to this trap of voting for who their husband tells them to vote for, which I think is really, really reprehensible.
WILLIAMS: Well, two things to say here. One is we're at a very critical moment in terms of the culture, in terms of women and how they vote and their politics. Obviously, #MeToo, Donald Trump, and all the charges and counter charges create a lot of cultural static. So you have, I think, at this moment, lots of women who may have trouble with Trump about his controversies. And we've seen, especially, white suburban women play a key role in that Conor Lamb victory that was cemented today, but also in Virginia, in that gubernatorial race won by the Democrat, Ralph Northam, in Alabama, Doug Jones victory there. And so, that's a real difference. That could be a game changer if you get women, especially, those white suburban women.
MACCALLUM: Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: To lean away. And remember, that's what helped Donald Trump in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
MACCALLUM: Is that why you have so many Democrats distancing themselves from Hillary Clinton's comments because she's.
WILLIAMS: Oh, big-time.
MACCALLUM: Identity politics here. She's saying, oh -- one of the reasons I didn't win is because I'm a woman, because people still hold these grudges. It's like, hello. You know, I don't think that has anything to do with why she didn't win.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think -- well, I don't know about that. Remember, when Comey comes out ten days before, you do see a shift.
MACCALLUM: That may be a bigger factor, but it's not because she was a woman.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no, no. But I think.
MACCALLUM: But she's still falling back on that.
WILLIAMS: No. She's saying that women, their husbands, and brothers, and sons, may have influenced these white suburban women.
MACCALLUM: So many of these women.
WILLIAMS: I don't know. But, what I will say is that she has got to understand the power going forward of the changes that are taking place in American society with more women doing what Martha MacCallum does every night.
MACCALLUM: Which is ironic.
WILLIAMS: Right.
MACCALLUM: She's been leading this charge her entire career. If she's not seeing it, I find remarkable.
WILLIAMS: That's why you see Clair McCaskill in Missouri, say, I disagree. I have respect for my Missouri residence, and I don't know what she's doing.
MACCALLUM: And if they want to win over those suburban Trump voters they better give them some credit for speaking their own mind and voted the way they wanted, if they want to attempt that. Karl -- I mean, Karl? Good to have you here tonight, Juan.
WILLIAMS: I think I'm better looking than Karl.
MACCALLUM: You are so much better looking than Karl. Thanks, Juan. Good to see you.
WILLIAMS: Good to see you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, next, more potential Hillary Clinton hypocrisy claiming that President Trump is using the oval office to benefit himself and to benefit his family. The next author here joining me says that maybe she did exactly the same thing when she was there. Peter Schweizer wrote the book on Clinton corruption, and he has a new book and he's here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: So, it's been more than 16 months now since Donald Trump won the White House, but Hillary Clinton is still processing the title of her book, What Happened. And given the fact that in January, federal prosecutors opened a probe in to pay-for-play accusations of the Clinton Foundation, the recent criticism of the current president is getting some attention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He has undermined the office and used it to enrich himself and his family, disregarded laws, ethical standards. He's crossed into a territory of behavior and actions that are unpredictable, that are erratic, that are undermining the stability of the global order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, the Clintons just to, you know, tally up, they've made $240 million, much of it from foreign countries since 2001. Peter Schweizer exposed the source of that money in his best-seller, Clinton Cash. And now, he's back at it with a brand new book, Secret Empires, exposing how other political families have enriched themselves over the years, and it is fascinating. So, first after all, Hillary Clinton claiming that the Trump folks have enriched themselves at the behest of government.
PETER SCHWEIZER, SECRET EMPIRES AUTHOR: Yeah. It's pretty amazing to have Hillary Clinton lecture somebody on ethical standards when it comes to these issues. But, look, I mean, it's hard to know. But I think if you look at Donald Trump's family you can probably make a case that they've lost money from going into public service. You've got people that don't like him politically, that are boycotting him. I'm certainly there're been restraints on behavior. I don't think there's any clear evidence of self- enrichment that's taking place. Let's look at this after four years or after eight years and see what the case is. But, I don't think you can make that case at all. You always have conflict of interest, the blurring of lines you have to worry about, but I don't see any clear-cut evidence yet, at this point, that that's happened.
MACCALLUM: Well, what you are so good at is following the money, essentially.
SCHWEIZER: Yeah.
MACCALLUM: And now this new book, Secret Empires, profiles the Kerry family, the Biden family, and the McConnell family. So, starting with Kerry and Biden, because those two are linked.
SCHWEIZER: Right.
MACCALLUM: Explain what you found in the business connection, and China, and their government positions.
SCHWEIZER: Well, it's really interesting, Martha, because there's this critical period from 2013 to 2016, during the Obama administration where the U.S. is engaging with China on the South China Sea on military challenges, on trade, on intellectual property. Joe Biden in December of 2013, flies over to Beijing in Air Force 2, with him on the plane is his son, Hunter Biden. Joe Biden gets widely criticized for going soft on Beijing. Well, ten days after they return, his son Hunter Biden scores a private equity deal for a billion dollars. That's a billion with a B.
It's important to know, Hunter Biden has no background in private equity. He has not done business in China before. And he, along with a guy named Devin Archer, who's a close Kerry family aide, start doing deals in China. There're two other major deals that involved the Kerry and the Biden elements with China, three of them worth billions of dollars. And the argument that they're going to try to make is that this had no influence over policy, which to me is just ludicrous. Anytime you engage in commercial ventures with somebody, if we worry about a $10,000 PAC contribution influencing a politician, I think we ought to be very concerned about billion dollars private equity deals going to the kids of politicians.
MACCALLUM: And then, there were deals with defense companies that -- in China, who were, at the same time, being accused of stealing technology from us.
SCHWEIZER: Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean, so they get this money from the Chinese, this billion dollars plus, and this is Chinese government money they've done this deal with. They take that government money and they invest in other Chinese companies or U.S. companies. One of those is a company called CGN, China General Nuclear, their anchor investor. So, this is Hunter Biden, the son of the vice president, and Devin Archer, a close aide to John Kerry. CGN, this company, less than a year after they invest in them, senior executives are arrested for doing what? For stealing nuclear secrets in the United States.
And one of the engineers in that company pleads guilty. What they're trying to get access to these small nuclear reactors that are very similar to those that are on U.S. nuclear submarines. So, this is not just about politicians getting quick money, this has serious national security implications. And it is the new growth area of corruption. The old days of politicians stuffing, you know, $90,000 in their freezer has been replaced by billion-dollar private equity deals for your family members. It's a lot harder to detect and to find.
MACCALLUM: So what about Mitch McConnell?
SCHWEIZER: Well, Mitch McConnell, very similar. China. China has basically adopted this posture of saying that they're going to seek out commercial ties with family members. Elaine Chow's family is in the shipping business. The government of China, the China state ship building corporation has set them up. They build their ships. They finance the construction of their ships. They provide contracts for state-owned enterprise to ship them around. And the father, the patriarch of the family, gave a gift to Mitch McConnell of $25 and $25 million.
MACCALLUM: We've run out of time, but wish we had more. Thank you very much, Peter. Good to see you tonight.
SCHWEIZER: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: So, that is The Story. We'll see you back here tomorrow night. Tucker Carlson is up next.
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