Rep. Cleaver on the possibility of dark spirits in Congress

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," July 18, 2019. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, ANCHOR: It sure does. Good evening, Bret. Thank you so much. So, tonight, are these the battle lines of 2020? So, tonight, the president tries to dampen the flames a little bit after some of his supporters chanted, send her home, last night.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT: I was not happy with it. I disagree with it. But again, I didn't say -- I didn't say that they did. But I disagree --


MACCALLUM: So, now, Omar and AOC who'd say, they won't take the bait seem to be taking it again. They've upped the ante, calling the president violent, and not just a racist, but throwing in fascist, as well.


REP. ILHAN OMAR, D-MINN.: And as much as he's spewing his fascist ideology on stage. Telling U.S. citizens to go back because they don't agree with his detrimental policies for our country. We tell people that here in the United States, dissent is patriotic.


MACCALLUM: And Joe Biden seems to see Elaine here as well to draw some sharp contrast for his own campaign. Comparing the president today to George Wallace.


JOE BIDEN, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When has that ever happened over the last time, you remember thinking about George Wallace? No, I'm serious. When does anything like that happen the president of the United States saying and doing something like that?


MACCALLUM: So, on the other side of the equation, you have the president's supporters who remember when they were called names.


HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER FIRST LADY: You could put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?


MACCALLUM: Lot of laughter and applause there, and even this back during a prior presidential run.


BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT (via skype): And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them.


MACCALLUM: So, now, Democrats who are to the right of the Squad, as they are called, and there are plenty of Democrats who are to the right of this group are in a bit of a box. Which road do they go down? Do they side with the squad and defend them? Or do they try to win back those folks in the middle who were put off by elitism and turned to Donald Trump?

A big political lineup tonight to take a deep dive into all of this. We've got Marc Thiessen and Richard Fowler standing by. But first, Corey Lewandowski, former Trump campaign manager. Brooke Goldstein, human rights lawyer and founder of -- and executive director of The Lawfare Project and Jehmu Green, former candidate for DNC chair and a Fox News contributor. Great to have all of you with us.

Let's jump right in here. Jehmu, your reaction to the president's attempt today to kind of dial back the send her home chant from last night?

JEHMU GREEN, CONTRIBUTOR: It's about time. I think we all recognized or all decent people in this country recognized when he first tweeted to U.S. citizens for them to go back home. That, you know, there was a line that had been crossed in an administration where so many other lines had been crossed.

So, this is a good step in the -- in the right direction. But, we also have a president who -- and Corey knows this well, he is so good -- you know, I'm the fly, he was on that stage, and he had a chance to speak to the world, to speak to our citizens about American values and shut that chant down and he didn't.

So, I think we've seen a really clear glimpse into the president's heart, and he's perhaps looking at polls that are driving some of those taking a step back.


MACCALLUM: Yes. All right. I think, you know, Corey, what do you say to that? I mean, the president said, though I quickly jumped in and started talking, but he -- it took a while and I think a lot of us who were watching it last night we're sort of hoping that he would jump in.

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER TO DONALD TRUMP: You know, Martha, what we saw today was the president come out and say, he didn't -- he didn't support what those people in the arena was saying last night. But, as you know, there has been a very significant double standard as it relates to what Democrats on the Left have said and what the censure or lack of censure from the House has happened to these individuals.

These four members of Congress have gone out and chastised individual members of Congress who support Israel by saying things like it's all about the Benjamin's, clearly a pejorative term against the Jewish community. We've seen them make racist comments in the past -- these four particular individuals.

And if they -- and what the president has said is what the American people believe which is if you don't love this country, you can leave Congress, you can go back to somewhere else. Because in places like South Dakota and Wisconsin and Michigan, they don't believe in the rhetoric that these four particular individuals are saying.


LEWANDOWSKI: And that's why even Nancy Pelosi has seemed like the rational one so far.

MACCALLUM: Yes, I mean -- I mean, you know that -- that's at the heart of this debate. And Brooke, you know, when you look at what Omar is supporting in terms of boycotting, you know, Israel essentially. You know that is something that a lot of members of Congress are outraged by, and a lot of Democrats are outraged by.

BROOKE GOLDSTEIN, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE LAWFARE PROJECT: Right, and I want to be very clear what Omar and her cohorts are supporting in the so-called BDS movement. It's not the boycott of Israel, it's the targeting of American Jews and Israeli Jews.

What the BDS movement says and what they're advocating for is a commercial boycott against Israeli Jews. Not Israeli Muslims or Israeli Christians, but the targeting of Jews. And using politics as some sort of affirmative defense.

And I think the shame here is that what's lost in this fake outrage over Trump's comments is that the real racists here -- really the modern-day Nazis are getting away with murder. They took an opportunity and Omar took the opportunity to try and insert a resolution -- this is a lawmaker calling for the boycott of the Jewish people, and claiming that Trump is the real racist.

MACCALLUM: Jehmu, what do you say to that?

GREEN: Well, first, I want to refer to Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. I think that it is important to remember that she is a duly elected representative of our government, and deserves more respect than we've seen, the commentary around these issues. Now, look --


GOLDSTEIN: She works for us, she works to the American people, and she is advocating for illegal discrimination against Jews as a lawmaker.

GREEN: This is America, right? This is America, right? And as Americans, we have certain values that we've got freedom of expression in this country.

GOLDSTEIN: And they are not illegal discrimination in value.

MACCALLUM: All right. Let Jehmu respond, Brooke.

GREEN: We've got -- we've got very important values that have come under attack from this administration. And I think a lot of people are saying, wait a second, when did it become wrong for a member of Congress to critique a policy? A policy that she gets to vote on as far as the amount of foreign aid that we give to Israel.


MACCALLUM: Yes, but by the same token, Jehmu, it is -- you know, do -- but by the same token, Jehmu, Americans are also have the right to say that they disagree with her on these issues. That they think that the way she speaks about that she's anti-Semitic.

GREEN: Disagree, yes. Go back? No.

MACCALLUM: You know, so --


GREEN: Disagree, yes. Go back? No.

MACCALLUM: And I think there's broad agreement on that.

GREEN: And I heard -- I heard our colleague, Mo, on "SPECIAL REPORT", earlier talked about how many times he's been told to go back. I was born in Washington, D.C. I've been told to go back to -- I guess, Washington, D.C.


MACCALLUM: That's awful. I mean, nobody, nobody -- I mean, that nobody is here to purport that it is -- it is.

GREEN: This should not be coming from the president. It is congresspeople should not be held to a higher standard than the president. That's why I'm so confused with Republicans holding congresspeople to a higher standard than the man in the White House.


LEWANDOWSKI: But they should be (INAUDIBLE).

MACCALLUM: Yes, but by the same token -- Corey, Corey, I want you to jump in here. By the same token, you have to look back at what these individual congresswomen have said, and they need to be held to account for it as well. That this is a free country, if you disagree with them, you are allowed to speak your mind about it. Corey?

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, this is the lack of leadership in the Democratic Party when Steve King from Iowa made some incendiary remarks.


GREEN: Leadership?

LEWANDOWSKI: They removed him from his committee assignments. Though Republicans didn't he has no committee assignments now.

MACCALLUM: That's true.

LEWANDOWSKI: When the Democrats make incendiary remarks about the Jewish community, or by calling our men and women who serve in uniform in the Customs and Border Agency, you know, Nazis, they continue to allow to serve on the Committee on Foreign Relations and to other places of importance.

MACCALLUM: All right.

LEWANDOWSKI: And that should not be what we espouse all elected officials to be doing.


GREEN: I agree. I agree.

LEWANDOWSKI: You can be surreal with them. That's outrageous to call those people, Nazis.


GREEN: The rhetoric of the president should -- the rhetoric of this president, Corey, should mean that he should not be allowed to serve. Let's have that conversation.

MACCALLUM: So, what about this --


LEWANDOWSKI: The rhetoric of -- the rhetoric of Joe Biden --

GOLDSTEIN: When you equally condemn -- can you equally condemn the BDS move?

MACCALLUM: Hold on, Jehmu. Then, they -- you have to -- guys. No one can understand any of you when you're all yelling.

GOLDSTEIN: Can you equally condemn it?

MACCALLUM: Guys, listen. No, but the fact of the matter is that there are some people who feel the same way, Jehmu, about what these congresswomen have said that they should no longer serve.

Now, that's the beauty of America, everybody gets to vote and decide whether or not these individuals get sent back to serve in their offices. I got to go. Thank you very much, because I've got two other great guests who are standing by, waiting for their shot at this conversation.

So, is all of this an argument about what it means to put America first? And is that a winning 2020 strategy? Here now, Marc Thiessen, American Enterprise Institute scholar. And Richard Fowler, syndicated radio host. Both are Fox News contributors.

I want to start by playing this from Senator Lindsey Graham. Because it goes to the question of whether or not what the president has criticized these women for has anything to do with the color of their skin. Watch this.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C.: I've said before that if you're a Somali refugee wearing a MAGA hat, he doesn't want to send you back, you probably have dinner at the White House. What does that tell me? That it's about their criticism and their critic that the president believes of what they're doing is over the top.



RICHARD FOWLER, CONTRIBUTOR: Listen, I don't believe that. And let me say this. My mother emigrated here from Jamaica, and she served this country her entire life as a registered nurse. And when those comments were made by the president, both in that tweet, and yesterday, I spoke with her. And she said it felt like I got punched in the stomach after serving this country.

And knew what you can't do is take away the feelings of the people of color when we hear those type of comments. Because those type of comments have a real and lasting impact. As we heard it on the playground, We heard it at work, we heard it at school, and let's be very clear if an employer had said that -- if a restaurant owner had said that, if a store clerk had said that, there would be lawsuits. People would get fired.

And it's happened. If you go to the EEOC, there's a complaint, and there's actual settlements for people using that same language. And our president, the leader of the free world, should not use that language. And nobody should defend it, period.

MACCALLUM: All right. Marc, Marc, what do you say to that?

MARC THIESSEN, CONTRIBUTOR: I don't defend it at all, in fact, I condemn it.

FOWLER: Thank you, Marc.

THIESSEN: And I condemned the people in the -- in the rally the other day, saying that. Look, I'm the son of an immigrant too, my mother was a war refugee after World War II from Poland, and was a stateless refugee in America welcomed her here.

So, immigrants make -- are what makes this country great. It's unsettling sometimes because most of the vast majority of immigrants are incredibly patriotic and love their country, and don't have hate. And they particularly have a love of the country because they've seen what oppression is like or what a lack of opportunity is like, and what real discrimination is like, and it's unsettling to see somebody like Ilhan Omar, who is a Somali refugee who was welcomed into this country to express so much hostility towards the country that welcomed her in.

And such a virulent anti-Semitism. And so, the solution is not to say go back home. The solution is to oppose her in a Democratic process and show what makes -- what make America great is that free people are free to be wrong.

And she is a free person in a free country and she is free to be wrong. She's free to be a bigot. And but, she is also a political figure and she is not above criticism. The fact that Donald Trump said something offensive about them, doesn't make them saints. And doesn't make them above criticism, and we should be calling out when she says it's all about the Benjamin's when she says people who support Israel have dual loyalty. Those are -- those are anti-Semitic remarks, and the Congress could bring themselves to condemn that.


MACCALLUM: But she wasn't called that in Congress. The Congress -- Richard, you know as well as I do, Congress got all nervous about condemning her for what she said in that moment.

THIESSEN: Yes, exactly.

MACCALLUM: And they washed it out and said, "Oh, let's just make it an anti-hate thing. We're not going to name her individually for this. You know, I think that was obviously very offensive to a lot of Jewish people in this country. I know to a lot of other people as well.

FOWLER: So, I have two comments here. Comment number one, I think you can disagree with how our country engaged with Israel. You can disagree with how are country engage with any country Donald Trump did disagreed. With how we engage with NATO and you can still be American.

But I think if we really want to rule out bigotry in his country, it goes beyond calling names at each other and running people -- or running against each other in primaries. Let's actually have education. I mean, we saw Donald Trump went to the African-American history museum. I think he should go back.

And if we really want Ilhan Omar to be educated about what anti-Semitism causes, then, let's have a trip to the holocaust museum.

If we really want to change this country, if we really want to bring this country together, let's not throw mud at each other, and let's educate each other, because here is the truth. If we want to make -- truly want to make America great, we have to live with each other. We are each other's neighbors, and that requires us living together, and education is how we do it.


MACCALLUM: Well, that's absolutely true. I don't think anybody would disagree with any of that, Richard. Absolutely not.

FOWLER: And mudslinging and name-calling is not how you doing. That's what the president engaging it.

MACCALLUM: Yes, on either side. Yes, on either side. Marc, I'll give you the final thought there.

THIESSEN: I don't disagree with anything Richard just said, except the problem is, is that what Ilhan Omar and the Squad, members of the Squad have done, it's not just opposition to U.S. policy towards Israel, they're anti-Semites. They stand with -- I mean, Rashida Tlaib had a picture taken with a guy who stabbed three Israeli soldiers.

They talk about dual loyalty that they forgot what country they -- people that support Israel forgot what country they represent. These are classic long-term anti-Semitic tropes and this have to be called out.


FOWLER: But the president is just as guilty, Marc.

THIESSEN: If you want to oppose racism and bigotry, Richard, we have to repose it in all cases.

MACCALLUM: All right.

FOWLER: But the president just as guilty.

THIESSEN: Not just from Donald when you think Donald Trump has said it.

MACCALLUM: I got to go. Final thought.

FOWLER: The president -- the president is still not apologized the Central Park Five. The Central Park Five. Five innocent black men who went to jail for 10 years because --


THIESSEN: Either Rashida Tlaib has not apologized, Ilhan Omar has not apologized. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has not apologized for talking a (INAUDIBLE) concentration camps.

FOWLER: So, but this is -- this is -- but this is part of the problem. It's a circle -- But Marc, this is a -- it's a circling -- it's a circling firing squad. And that's part of the problem.

MACCALLUM: All right, guys. We got to leave it there. Marc Thiessen and Richard Fowler, thank you both.

FOWLER: It's good to see you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: This conversation -- well, continuous. Good to see both of you too. Thank you very much, guys.

All right. Coming up, the world awaits Iran's next move after President Trump says the United States just shot down an Iranian drone which was warned and came to close to a U.S. ship. General Jack Keane, next.


MACCALLUM: Big story tonight. The USS Boxer taking defensive action today shooting down and destroying an Iranian drone that was in the Strait of Hormuz. President Trump said that the drone had closed in on the U.S. Navy ship and that it ignored several calls to stand down.


TRUMP: This is the latest of many provocative and hostile actions by Iran against vessels operating in international waters. The United States reserves the right to defend our personnel, our facilities, and interests and calls upon all nations to condemn Iran's attempts to disrupt freedom of navigation and global commerce.


MACCALLUM: It seems like almost every day. There's been an incident in the past several weeks. Meanwhile, Iranian state T.V. claims that their forces seized a foreign oil tanker with 12 crew members who they accuse of smuggling oil.

The U.S. is reportedly getting ready to send 500 troops to Saudi Arabia in a new show of force and Iran's Foreign Minister said today his country has was a few minutes away from war with the United States last month over the fire zone incident.

Here now General Jack Keane, Chairman of the Institute for the Study of War and a Fox News Senior Strategic Analyst. General, good to have you here tonight. So was shooting down that drone the right thing to do, was it justified, and now what?

GEN. JACK KEANE, RET., SENIOR STRATEGIC ANALYST: All of the commanders on the scene can make that judgment. They give them warnings that I get within you know, our violations of our own protections they've got the right to do it.

You know, to be quite frank about it, the Iranians obviously are feeling the weight of these crippling sanctions in a way that I've never seen for 39 years and dealing with them. And their response as much as they're determined and used to be somewhat disciplined, I find him incredibly inept in terms of what they're doing.

I mean, it starts with the tankers, they sabotage six of them, and we caught them with indisputable evidence on all of them, and it absolutely backfired in their face. They had a tactical command to shoot an American drone without the authorization of their leaders, claimed it was in their airspace but couldn't prove it, our president didn't respond to it.

And we wind up on a moral high ground and the Iranians loose face over it. They're trying to retaliate against the Brits for taking a tanker away from them for good reasons violating sanctions and they get humiliated by the Brits with a warship in the area. It's a stunning, embarrassing humiliation.

Zarif is in New York City and he's talking to people about you know, I'm willing to put ballistic missiles on a table as a negotiating tool, we start to respond to it, 24 hours later he says no, no, I didn't really mean that. This is extraordinary what is happening. I think it might take on it, Martha, is an indication of the pressure, the absolute pressure that the Iranians are feeling here.

MACCALLUM: Well, and they you know, say that they feel like these sanctions hurt the people of Iran and not the leadership, you know, that they are able to weather this fairly well. What do you say to that? Is that an effective tool?

KEANE: Oh it's so effective. I mean, high inflation rates, high unemployment, yes, it's affecting the people, food shortages, power outages, growing civil unrest. They blame the regime. They're not blaming America for what -- for what has taken place. The leadership in Iran is back on their heels literally for the first time that I have ever seen.

And what we need to do is not overreact, be patient, because the strategy we have in place is working. And we don't need to go up the ladder of escalation with the Iranians in a way that they would love to take us there. We have to be careful about what we're doing. Our strategy, our offensive strategy is working, and don't fall into a provocation trap that this setting for us.

MACCALLUM: Well see what comes next. General Jack Keane, always good to see you, sir. Thank you very much.

KEANE: Yes, good talking to you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: You too. All right, coming up next, how Jeffrey Epstein's sex crime scandal could now rock the royal family. Details on that, plus a STORY exclusive with the mayor of a city where they're now playing the baby shark song -- have you heard this song -- to drive away the homeless.



STEPHEN GRUVER, FATHER OF MAX GRUVER: They had him in a room that was black, dark, with strobe lights going on loud music and they would ask them questions about the fraternity or recite the Greek alphabet. And if you got it wrong, then they would have you just basically take I guess the handle or the bottle of alcohol and just turn it up and continue to drink until they call it a pool until they told you to stop. His blood alcohol content was 0.496 the following day. So that night it had to be a lot higher.


MACCALLUM: It's just heartbreaking, as the dad of LSU student Maxwell Gruver describing the hours before he's 18-year-old son died in an alcohol fueled hazing ritual that went horribly wrong in September 2017.

Now one of Gruver's so-called brothers at the fraternity has been found guilty in his death. This is a very big deal in these cases. 21-year-old Matthew Naquin faces up to five years in prison for negligent homicide. Prosecutors say he was the ringleader even though three other students were also charged in the incident. Here's how Max's father responded to the verdict.


GRUVER: We want this to send a message to the country that hazing should not exist, that it's dangerous and we have to all work together to bring an end to hazing.


MACCALLUM: It's heartbreaking for this family and he's right, it should never exist. Also tonight, it is incredible how quickly Jeffrey Epstein's luck has changed in his life after getting a very light sentence for underage prostitution. He is now looking at a very long time behind bars potentially after he offered a $100 million package to be able to go back to his nice home in New York City and be under constant surveillance. The judge said no way.

Now, court documents reveal that one of his accusers has a very compelling argument about her sexual slavery and it does not look so good right now for the royal family. Prince Andrew, the Duke of York has caused headaches for the Royal Family for years but not at this level.

In 2015 Virginia Roberts accused Epstein of forcing her to have sex with Prince Andrew when she was 17 years old. Buckingham Palace has denied the whole thing, but with more documents coming out, this could turn into a royal mess.

Here now a New York Post award-winning Investigative Journalist Maureen Callahan, also author of American Predator.

Good to have you here, Maureen.

So, you say that he is the Queen's favorite son, and that he is no stranger no embarrassing this family. Elaborate on that point.

MAUREEN CALLAHAN, AUTHOR, AMERICAN PREDATOR: He has a long history of associating with various strongmen and oligarchs for personal profit. And he has had this association with Jeffrey Epstein, perhaps his most troublesome, for many, many, many, many years.

Even Epstein's conviction, as you noted, on this very light charge of underage prostitution, which that phraseology is weird, it should be child rape --


CALLAHAN: -- and trafficking. But even after he was released from a very light 13-month sentence in Palm Beach county jail, he comes back to his beautiful upper east side townhouse and he is feted -- along with Prince Andrew, they spend four days celebrating together. They take a very chummy walk through Central Park, and meanwhile, Epstein gets on the phone to try to settle some debts that has been caused by Andrew's equally troublesome ex-wife, the greedy Sarah Ferguson.

MACCALLUM: And when you read these documents, you know, some of which have come out and others we all hope at some point will come out so we can learn some of the details here, but that's the way his accusers say he works. Like he would bring them in, forced these girls to have sex with people like this and then have them tell him, Epstein, all about it.

And he says so I have something on them. So, all these powerful people, so I will have something on them. That's the way he works.

CALLAHAN: It's an interesting point because he would think at this point, why would Andrew have continued to associate? And I find it so interesting. I wrote the column today because, you know, this whole summer we've been served up British royal family scandal that is about infighting among the sisters-in-law or, you know, Harry and William having a falling out.

Here's an actual British scandal involving the royal family. Prince Andrew was called on the carpet actually by the Buckingham Palace in 2011 after this all went down and was told you cannot associate with him anymore and he threw a fit.

By all accounts, he said I'm loyal to Jeffrey, you're being a puritan, being loyal to friends is a virtue, it's what I'm going to do and it's this hard headedness that I think could ultimately be his undoing.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I loved Epstein when he was off and in New York after he serve that time, he was telling reporters I'm an offender, not a predator. That's like the difference between being a murderer and someone who steals a bagel. That's how he sees all of this.

CALLAHAN: He was stupid enough to say that and he was stupid enough to talk to the New York Post. I mean, come on, what is he thinking?

MACCALLUM: Maureen, thank you very much, Maureen Callahan.

CALLAHAN: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: Good to see to tonight. Coming up next, the steps that cities are taking to accommodate the homeless from allowing camping on their public streets to reserving parking lots now so that people can live in them in their cars, but now one city is cracking down and trying to move people to someplace else by subjecting them to this.



BEN CARSON, SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT: This is a solvable problem. You know, there are cities that are bigger than any city that we have, like Tokyo, where there is no homelessness. You know, we have to start just using much more intelligent strategies, and that's exactly what we are trying to do.


MACCALLUM: That was the HUD secretary the other night, Ben Carson calling the disaster unfolding in the streets of places like San Francisco and L.A. a very solvable issue.

But right now, despite the booming economy and the really declining number of homeless over the last decade, they are converging on mostly liberal- governed cities and creating these large tent areas and local officials are trying just about anything to address the issue.

Austin is now allowing homeless people to legally sleep and camp and panhandle in public. We talked about that last week. We spoke with the mayor there.

San Francisco has decided that they are going to set aside parking spots and parking lot areas so that homeless people can live in their cars in those areas, and now in West Palm Beach, Florida, they are doing something to deter homeless people from staying in certain areas.

They're playing loud children's music including the popular Baby Shark song, which I just introduced myself today, and I get it, I get why it's really annoying. They play it on repeat to prevent people from sleeping in the city park.

Joining me now is the mayor of that city, Keith James. Mayor James, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

MAYOR KEITH JAMES, WEST PALM BEACH: Thank you for having me.

MACCALLUM: You know, it's an interesting tactic. What is your goal here, and is it working?

JAMES: Well, we had a very specific situation we were trying to address. We have a very lovely pavilion on our waterfront that we went out to groups, to wedding receptions for corporate dinners, and it provides a very unique opportunity, unique view of our waterfront.

And it is in a large waterfront area, but we were concerned about, based upon within the past few weeks, we found some treasures, shall I say, this is television --


MACCALLUM: It doesn't sound very good. Yes.

JAMES: -- that had been left by humans who had been sleeping overnight. And so, we wanted to discourage them from just hanging out in front of our pavilion because the folks who would good money -- they are entitled to enjoy a pleasant experience for their situation there.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I get it. I mean, you know, in New York City there are places where there's long benches and they have sort of dividers in them for the purpose so that people can't sleep there at night.

Now everyone is compassionate about people being homeless and we need to have places that are safe for homeless people to be, but you also have to be understanding of the situations such as the one that you're talking about.

I just want to play a little bit of the other song that you are planning to drive people out of the park because --


JAMES: Must you?

MACCALLUM: --this song is so annoying. This is the taco one. "Raining Tacos." Let's play it.


MACCALLUM: My -- so, friends of mine and people who work here who have little kids say this music is like addictive for them, they want to listen to it all the time.

But this is one of the reactions from Dan Ketcham who is a member of the homeless community in West Palm Beach. Here's what he says about this tactic.


DAN KETCHAM, HOMELESS IN WEST PALM BEACH: They have started a mini war on the homeless people here, basically by playing a musical up which lasts for a few seconds and plays 180 times an hour which can get to you psychologically, over and over and over again. It is kind of a warfare. I mean, you're not allowed to do that in combat and prisoners of war anymore.


MACCALLUM: What do you say to that? I mean, you know, other critics too have said this is a method that was used in Gitmo. They played Barney dinosaur songs in order to send the message that -- futility music they called it, to convince detainees that it was futile to stay silent.

JAMES: The major difference there is he has the option of moving. That is the whole point. We don't want people in that particular area between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m.


JAMES: He has the option of moving to another location and, by the way, I don't want the public to misunderstand. We do have a number of very aggressive strategies when it comes to dealing with the homeless.

Every week we send out teams, many of those teams, many of the people in those teams --


JAMES: -- consist of formerly homeless people to meet the homeless where they are, match them with resources and shelters and that type of thing.


JAMES: And again, he is not being tortured, because he can move, he can leave, and that's what we want them to do. Leave.

MACCALLUM: Well, it's a valid point. Valid Point. Mayor James, I understand your -- I understand your argument. Thank you very much. Good to have you here tonight, sir.

JAMES: Well, thank you for the opportunity.

MACCALLUM: And thank you for introducing me to those songs. All right.

Coming up next.


ERIC HOLDER, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: When I hear these things about let's make America great again, I think to myself exactly when did you think America was great? It takes us back to I think an American past that never in fact really existed, this notion of greatness.


MACCALLUM: We are about to talk to Victor Davis Hanson, who wrote another very interesting piece today, and says America may not be perfect, but it is most certainly great. He will explain, next.


MACCALLUM: Much of the dispute between President Trump and these four Democratic congresswomen comes down to one thing, the nature and the origins of our country and whether or not we should be proud of them and the foundations on which the country was built, or whether there is a different way to move forward.

It shares similar routes with some other recent controversies like the push to remove a mural of George Washington from this California school because of some of the images that are also depicted in it. And you've got Nike's decision not to release these shoes, which had a Betsy Ross flag on them.

In a new op-ed today, he turns on a very strong piece, pretty much every day lately it seems. Victor Davis Hanson says these arguments are really over our past -- are really over the present and especially they are about our future.

Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of "The Case for Trump," joins us now. Victor, good to see you tonight. How are these arguments about our present and our future?

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, SENIOR FELLOW, HOOVER INSTITUTE: I think people feel that because of, ironically, because of our very success in addressing these sins of humankind, sexism, racism, class, oppression. We've done a pretty good job of at least compared to other countries and that creates these unreal expectations that we have to be perfect and free of all sin.

We wish we were but no society, no country has ever done that, so then people get frustrated and they say well, we were flawed at the beginning, and they don't look at the United States empirically. And by that, I mean where do -- people from Kenya do not go to Honduras and students do not want to enroll at the University of Moscow. And when you're in trouble, you don't call the French Charles de Gaulle carrier to help you out.

So, by any abstract or measure we are great and we are exceptional, but not when you put so many demands on us to be perfect. No country can do that. But it's a sign of our very success that we create these unreal --


HANSON: -- unrealistic expectations on so many.

MACCALLUM: I mean, it's a very interesting premise which basically says that because of the things that we have overcome, the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher and higher to the point where --

HANSON: Higher.

MACCALLUM: -- even the slightest offense to anyone is a very deep-rooted issue that has to be rooted out, you have to be fired, you have to be removed from what, you know, however it is.

I want you to listen to this Rashida Tlaib, if you would, sound bite from an interview that she did which I think goes to something that you talk about in your piece.



REP. RASHIDA TLAIB, D-MICH.: She can ask for a meeting to sit down with us for clarification. Acknowledge the fact that we are women of color so when you do singles out, be aware of that and what you're doing, especially because some of us are getting death threats, because some of us are being singled out in many ways because of our backgrounds.


MACCALLUM: She is saying if you want to criticize us, you need to think about the fact that we are women of color and you have to take into account our experiences and our background when you criticize us.

HANSON: Well, that's the most anti-enlightenment thing I've ever heard, because Representative Tlaib is a person. She's a unique identity. She's a human being and she's only secondarily a woman and thirdly a person of a particular ethnic background.

And if we were to go back to the pre-enlightenment, that's how we use to identify ourselves, as tribal people, that our first loyalty is always to people of similar superficial appearance and nobody is singling her out.

She singling herself out when she says not that I'm a woman or I'm a conservative or a progressive, but I'm a woman of color. And if everybody were to do that, you can see where it ends, where it leads to, it needs to Rwanda or the Balkans.

And it's kind of disturbing because when you make any point, as you pointed out, if you have a problem at the border or you have a problem with voter registration and people who tend to be the most obvious aggressors are not of a particular race or gender, then that becomes synonymous with racism.

It would be almost like saying well, there's a lot of white people in Wall Street and we are really worried about Wall Street ethics and therefore we don't like white people, or I support the Iraq war or I oppose it but the fatalities in the Iraq war were disproportionately white over their numbers in the population, therefore I'm a racist.

That's a very dangerous thing to do to transmogrified every issue into elements of race --


HANSON: -- and it's a (Inaudible) trope. She's basically saying that if I was not a woman of color I would have to be judged on my merits as an effective or ineffective representative, and that's the last thing that I want.

MACCALLUM: Very interesting points. It always strikes me that, you know, feminism, the whole goal is to be treated equally, to have that not be an issue that you are a woman and to have people not choose you because you're a woman or because you're not a woman, to choose you based on the merits of your work. So, it goes back to that as well.

Thank you very much, Victor. Great to see you tonight, as always. Thank you, sir.


MACCALLUM: Coming up next --

HANSON: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: -- the prayer to bring civility, unity and productivity back to Congress, wouldn't that be nice?


PATRICK CONROY, CHAPLAIN, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: I cast out the spirit of petty divisiveness, which clouds the sense and the desire to be a fruitful productivity in addressing the issues more appropriately before this House.



MACCALLUM: So, the president said last night that the vote yesterday meant that impeachment was behind him. But he spoke too soon. Another vote is expected next week and some Democrats believe that the Mueller hearings on Wednesday might energize members of their party toward that goal again.

It's just one of the issues that is dividing Washington this week. All of which prompted a prayer to stop the incivility, and it came from House chaplain, the priest, Patrick Conroy.


CONROY: This has been a difficult and contentious week in which darker spirits seem to have been at play in the people's House. In your most holy name, I now cast out all spirits of darkness from his chamber, spirits not from you.



MACCALLUM: Joining me now, Missouri Democratic Congressman Emanuel Cleaver. Congressman Cleaver, thank you so much for being with us tonight on THE STORY. What did you think about that prayer about driving the dark spirits that exist in Congress out of the House?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER, D-MO: Well, Father Patrick and I sat together earlier the day of all of the chaos and confusion during the resolution concerning President Trump. And he said to me, he leaned over and said, you know, I feel a presence in here, an evil presence. He said it's not a Democrat or Republican.

He said there something else going on here. And he said I'm going to have to pray tomorrow to ask God to cleanse this place.

Now, that comes from Paul's letter to the Ephesians where he talked about, you know, we fight not flesh and blood but principalities. In other words, there's another evil spirit.

And so, it's difficult to argue with Father Patrick because there is a mess going on here.


CLEAVER: And the tragedy is that I think there are many Americans who think it's OK. I have friends who say that if they don't -- if they don't come up and argue and do things that's turning off a lot of other people, that they will lose elections, that their people want them to come out and be disruptive.

So, I think, you know, I'm an ordained united Methodist pastor, and I believe that there is such a thing as evil and I also think that there are forces outside the United States that are trying to tear us apart. And we are raising our hands same please, get us. Get us please. Let us tear our country up. And we are working on it, it's tragic.

MACCALLUM: Yes. Well, if that's the case, then we in many ways are making it very easy for them. I think you're right, you know, sort of picking on each other endlessly.

And I just want to show the moment if people missed it where you got pretty fed up when you are presiding the other day. Watch this.


CLEAVER: We don't ever, ever want to pass out, it seems, an opportunity to escalate. That's what this is. Because we want to just fight. I abandon (Ph) the chair.


MACCALLUM: You are frustrated, sir.

CLEAVER: I was. And that was, look, it was a very touchy revolution and everyone who had spoken violated the House rules. I have admonished Democrats and Republicans. Nobody one will question that. The footage is clear. You know, and I thought if I can just do this for another five minutes, we'll be out of it. We'll have a vote that it will be over.

And one of the Democrats, Congresswoman Jayapal had tried to get something done to a Republican. It didn't go, and I didn't want it to go on Nancy Pelosi. And so, I thought these people just want to fight.


CLEAVER: They don't want to get out of here, so.

MACCALLUM: You are a voice of reason, sir, and you are on the civility caucus which sounds like a great caucus to be on these says.

Thank you very much for being here, Congressman and Pastor Cleaver.

CLEAVER: Good to be with you.

MACCALLUM: Good to have -- I hope you'll come back. Thank you very much, sir.

CLEAVER: yes. Good to be here. Thank you.

MACCALLUM: You, too. So that is “The Story” of this Thursday, July 18, 2019. But as always, “The Story” goes on. So, we will see you back here tomorrow night at 7. Tucker is up next.

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